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 *buzz*
Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 101
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?Page 5 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)

the muse takes the heart....

... and mind and soul.
She is the source of inspiration, focus, achievements, affection and double joy.
 Tarnished_Knight
Joined: 3/5/2009
Msg: 102
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/13/2009 10:41:00 PM
Ah, an excellent thread calling forth an answer from a knight of armour that once did shine brilliantly.

The idea that chivalry is dead is anathema to my soul; that it might be considered demeaning or condescending to the fair maiden strikes this knight with such a case of apoplexy I fain gather my trusty lance to take crusade against one and all who preach this utter nonsense.
-------
Really now, we have threads worrying about who pays for dinner or who should initiate contact; and now we have those who find respectful behavior amongst consenting adults to be demeaning. Well, I for one, tarnished as I be, seeks a woman who, in an undemanding way, desires to be respected and honoured this way.

TK
{perhaps that one woman I seek also comes with a can of Brasso}
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 103
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/13/2009 11:13:41 PM
^^^^ That would be to keep her chastity belt nicely polished, no doubt...

Somehow I can't find the words "child support payments" in my copy of the Chivalric Code, but a guy can't be too careful these days.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 104
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/18/2009 7:10:26 PM
Verityone... I think Ms Splendere may be the one who could keep you in place. }:>

Anyway, I'm not sure "banal" is a word I would use for manners, but I guess it is about intent, eh? The way I see it, somebody who makes an effort to show respect to those around them, and really means it, is far from "banal". On the other hand, I would agree with you that a person who is just going through the motions is banal, common, trite.


Of course not. Men don't need women to open doors for them, pull our chairs for them etc...


Of course not. Women don't need it either. I guess if you put it that way men don't NEED women to be loyal to them. Doesn't mean we don't want it. Maybe men don't need romance of any sort... at least many men (I do, maybe that is a curse *lol*). Still, when my hands are full it is sure nice when somebody opens the door for me. And when I am walking with a lady (not just during that dating part that you hate) and I get the chance to open a door and send her through it is the perfect chance to look at her, focus on her, reach out and say "I am with you right now, nowhere else".

Still (and this may be some consolation concerning my intent, if you could care less), your point makes me also think a bit more about a point I made to......

Cmdrfunk


Today's women do not meet this standard to be deserving of chivalry.


I wanted to add something to what I said to you previously that may come a bit more toward your thinking. While I was trying to refute your basic assumption, I guess what you may be saying partly is that most of today's woman don't PRACTICE Chivalry? THIS is true... the ones who are against it don't (obviously), and many of the ones who are for it often think of themselves on the receiving end.

Let me restate the question as I now think you may have meant it; why should men practice chivalry for woman who don't practice chivalry? (Is that what you meant?)

Ok, let me play devils advocate. The question of this thread was not "how important is it for MEN to practice chivalry", but "How important is chivalry in the relationship". I have to assume this includes women's chivalric behavior! How many of you men here have had the chance to experience interaction with a chivalric woman? How many of you ladies who like men to practice chivalry are also doing the same in return?

Hmmmm.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 105
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 12:04:03 AM
Hey Ms Eschec Mat, yes I did read your post. Perhaps, though, chivalry is less about doing what you want to be done to you, but rather doing what means something for the other person. What I mean is, a lady may like to have help with her coat or may not.. most men could care less about their coats so helping them is not really going to mean much to them.

You heard Verityone... he doesn't want anyone to pull his chair out. That isn't the kind of focus that makes him feel wanted or special. In fact, almost nothing in this conversation has delt with what women do to be chivalrous, but I can tell you it isn't generally the same things that turn a woman on!

How about this one for starters..... a chivalrous woman makes the first move. She lets the man know it is ok to court her. I bet most of the ladies here didn't know this.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 106
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 2:51:07 AM

Chivalry could be referred to as manners or being raised to treat others as you wish to be treated.


In those cases I would simply call it being nice or friendly. Chivalry is typically thought as the way a man treats a woman. I don't see how anyone can mistaken chivalry as associated with other acts of kindness as historically it was not. I suppose a man helping a man could be thought as Chivalrous, but I think both men would disagree with you as it would kind of sound gay?!? Sorry if I offended anyone, don't know an easy way to say it.
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 107
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:04:10 AM
To me the word chivalry seems to be about certain customs of how men are supposed to treat women. And when something is a customs it's not done voluntarily. Sure, a man may say that nobody is twisting their arm to open the car door or pull out a lady's chair, but, yet....isn't there the feeling of guilt, if they don't do it? Weren't they taught that they're not a gentleman, if they don't do certain things? So, it's not a fully voluntary gesture.

Due to that I don't really care for chivalry.

I like give and take, when it comes from the heart. When the giving is not expected, but it's done anyway, because the person wants to. I don't mean 'giving' as in presents, but rather any gesture that's done to offer something to another is a 'giving'. It's a little bit of 'going out of my way to make you feel good'. And when that 'going out of my way for your benefit' is done completely by choice and from the heart - that's when I think it's meaningful.
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 108
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:23:36 AM
Ok, I just had a thought - not completely thought through - and some of you will probably jump on me for this ;-)

Here's why I think a lot of men like chivalry and get upset if some women don't care:
It seems like an instruction manual for 'how do I get a woman to like me'. I know I'm generalizing, but normally men are more linear thinkers than women. So, they like having instructions: Do A, then do B, then do C , and the result will be X ..etc. And having this 'roadmap' taken away will result in a feeling of loss of control. I'm not talking about someone being in control. But all of us like to have a certain control in our life, some more than others. It's security/safety.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 109
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:45:44 AM
Ms Eschec Mat


but please do look up the definition of modern chivalry in a dictionary or online.


Oh, believe me.... I am very aware of both historical and modern forms and the interplay between them. I'm not sure if you saw my posts on the thre historical forms of chivalry, but I do mention modern chivalry as well.


You want to do stupid generalizations about women go for it.


It sounds to me as though you may have taken what I said very personally, and misunderstood my point, ma'am. It wasn't intended to in any way offend. Sorry if I have done so. Please remember that I have previously made the point that I in fact do not agree with the generalizations... and I did just say that to some extent I am playing devils advocate because I think that while I disagree with the quotes I posted I think there is an underlying principle that maybe didn't get enough attention.

Ms Splendere answers the issue a few posts after yours, and I think understands it very well.


That has absolutely nothing to do with chivalry


Au contraire. You have heard of the proverbial dropping of the kerchief? That is what it refers to. This practice comes from the historical form of chivalry, but it certainly continued into the Victorian and 1950s forms, and for ladies like Splendere it obviously continues today. What it means is permission to enter into discourse with the lady, to make contact. I promise... I'm not making this stuff up. ;)

Ms Splendere


It is good that you have stated this for truly gentlemen will not pursue a woman that has not displayed, in some fashion, an interest in him. I will take it further; based on my experience, he will not go there before he knows he is welcome.


Exactly. So for all the ladies who support chivalry, lets see some kerchiefs *lol*
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:22:01 PM
Ms Splendere


I’m delighted that you approve of my wanton, wicked ways, my darlin…….

Now where is that damn hanky……..


If that hanky doesn't get picked up by the one closest to where it was dropped *cough*, then perhaps his anti-chivalry stance should be taken seriously... and I hope you would allow one more genuine to pick it up. ;)
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 111
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/19/2009 9:33:30 PM
varinia-

Chivalry is supposed to be about reaffirming gender roles. It actually makes both parties feel better. The phrase "chivalry is dead and women killed it" refers to the fact that today's women don't want gender roles - they think they can be like men.

Since you are now our "buddies" instead of women, why would we hold the door open for you? After all, you can open it yourself all things being equal right?

I understand your way of thinking, but I know its wrong. Women like being treated like women, and men like feeling like men. Women are still more nurturers than men are and will never have the productive abilities of men. By taking us out of our roles, we all lose.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 112
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:24:37 AM

The phrase "chivalry is dead and women killed it" refers to the fact that today's women don't want gender roles - they think they can be like men.


They can't be men, no matter how hard they try. You are the one who wants to define what roles they play.


I understand your way of thinking, but I know its wrong.


Rather you think its wrong and that is not enough to make it true.


Women like being treated like women, and men like feeling like men. Women are still more nurturers than men are and will never have the productive abilities of men.


People like being treated that most makes them comfortable. Whether is more traditional roles, sharing equally and so on.


By taking us out of our roles, we all lose.


By letting people be who they want to be, we all win.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 113
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:21:07 AM

If it's possible to balance feminism with chivalry, I'd like to do it.


I think it is possible...

But..I also think too many people just don't like the idea..it appears you have to be black and white..one side or the other..thus all the comments about "picking and choosing" equality selectively...Apparently,some of us are too gray and/or less rigid in our interpretations...this is one area that complexity doesn't seem to be a good thing....

Actually, I think any combination of any preferences are perfectly ok...being as I still think of equality or feminism as being about choice...not making another choice for all women to follow blindly..just this time by other women..who really can't speak for all of us...

As to chivalry..I think I both try to practice it.. ( figurative dropping of the hankie, being aware and trying to attend to those things that a man would appreciate ( knowing full well we don't have the same outlook) ( or his turn ons)..the most obvious one to me would be feeding him...either by cooking it myself, or treating him to a dinner out..or, being appreciative of what he does for me, etc...), and I appreciate it when a guy does it for me...I have never expected it, and in these times, it would be foolish to, but, it sure is a nice surprise when it happens....
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 114
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:35:20 PM
I love chivalrous men, who are honest about it, not doing it because they think they are expected to. I enjoy doing things for someone, and experience(s) have taught me that my personality meshes better with men who are also givers. So many people seem to be the type that gave a lot in previous relationships to people who took advantage of them and they sure are not ever going to be give anything to any one again. Sad to me, as they are missing out on a possible wonderful relationship with someone who would also give in return. However, they might need to address the issue of why they are attracted to people who take advantage of their chivalrous nature. The small, chivalrous gestures mean a lot to me. I would probably love it more if a man remembered that I love children's books about cats and surprised me by giving me one he found at a yard sale than wining and dining me at an expensive restaurant.
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 115
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:54:05 PM
"I understand your way of thinking, but I know its wrong. Women like being treated like women, and men like feeling like men. Women are still more nurturers than men are and will never have the productive abilities of men."

How do you know it's wrong? What makes you the judge of this? I like being treated as a person. I will hold the door for someone following me, just as I hope that the person in front of me will hold it for me. And it doesn't matter what gender they are.

Granted, I know I'm a very difficult fit and there are very few men that appreciate my thinking, but I don't care about all that outside stuff, the 'productivity (and how exactly is it that women will never have the productive abilities of men ?) the posturing, the rituals etc.
I prefer others to be who they are and not hide behind those customs of reaffirming gender roles.

I don't think men and women are the same. There are masculine and feminine traits and some have some of them more than others. But what I see all around me is people puffing themselves up and saying 'men are better' or 'women are better' or 'we're all the same'. When we should all embrace our strengths and weaknesses and work together and be stronger than the sum of it's parts. But I'm talking about the real people and their real character traits and not the stuff that is just exterior stuff, like chivalry.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 116
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:33:53 PM
Ms Varinia


I don't think men and women are the same. There are masculine and feminine traits and some have some of them more than others. But what I see all around me is people puffing themselves up and saying 'men are better' or 'women are better' or 'we're all the same'. When we should all embrace our strengths and weaknesses and work together and be stronger than the sum of it's parts. But I'm talking about the real people and their real character traits and not the stuff that is just exterior stuff, like chivalry.


Well stated. Though I don't think real "chivalry" is "exterior stuff" , I think your deeper point is important. I think you may be driving at what Plato would call "arete". That is to say, you are talking about deeper value.... which I think fits the original focus and function of one of the forms of "chivalry".

I started to bring up the spiritual notions behind the romantic form of "chivalry", but I didn't get the chance. The idea of the "Cult of the Lady" and how the notion of the "Sophia" offsets the "Logos", etc., may be out of focus for this thread .

What about this, though? Interest in courtly "Chivalry" has often come directly with social change on the grander scale. The original movement in Provance came with some of the more powerful women in Europe (such as Eleanor of Aquitaine), as well as keeping open the door for dissenting religious views such as the Cathars, and the first publications of Kabbalist texts (Jewish mysticism, when Jews where hated elswhere). After that, the reawakening of interest came with the Florentine pre-renaissance (Dante, etc.) and the English version (Chaucer etc.). That is two generations of high art! THEN, we have the actual Renaissance and the "court" of Lorenzo de Medici who also thought of themselves as bringing this movement back. There are the modern "humanists" that felt themselves related to the courtly ideal equally from the artistic (Such as William Blake) and even the political (Lafayette, or the better of the "founding fathers" of America).

I don't mean this to sound patronizing, but I honestly think many of you all think of "chivalry" in such simple gender terms that you may be missing some of the wider social and philosophical implications. The courtly form of "Chivalry" is not about a man holding a door for a lady, it is a literary and philosophical stance that INCLUDES people holding doors for EACH OTHER, as well as keeping scientific exploration open, along with internal growth (whether you want to call it psychological or spiritual). It is about the "bildungsroman" of starting as a fool and becoming something more.
 jeeperspeepers
Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 117
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 6:39:33 PM
Chivalry is important to me....I consider it the same as respect. I do not find it demeaning.
 2Irish1
Joined: 9/1/2008
Msg: 118
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 7:18:58 PM
Chilvary...it's not important to me.....in fact...I find chilvarious women to be a turn-off....but, that's just me..
 AnberlinFan0784
Joined: 2/13/2009
Msg: 119
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 8:29:48 PM
It's important. Although I won't write off a guy who happens to not open my car door, I sure do take notice when he does!

So I guess, it's not a necessity, but it's definitely appreciated!
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 120
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:12:25 PM
"That is to say, you are talking about deeper value.... which I think fits the original focus and function of one of the forms of "chivalry".

I am indeed more interested in the deeper value. I don't know much about the history of Chivalry - I just read that it originates from the word 'horse' and is basically the social, moral and religious code of knightly conduct. So, in that regards I like chivalry, if it comes from the inside. BUT, for the sake of the discussion, don't we have to really use the word the way it's commonly understood in today's language? And, unless I"m wrong, that means it refers to certain behaviors of men towards women.

To me it's kind of like that saying about 'giving a man a fish and he has food for a day or teaching him how to fish and he has food for life'. With that I mean, today, chivalry seems to be defined as certain named behaviors: opening a door, pulling out a chair, walking on the street side etc. To me that's like giving a fish. It's defined, expected and it doesn't come voluntarily, because there's some social pressure attached.

I'd much rather prefer someone that has been taught how to fish - and with that I mean, someone that will think about the situation and act accordingly to what he wants to do.
Call it improvising or whatever. Someone that does not do certain acts under this social pressure, but voluntarily.

For example, it would be considered gentlemanly to give a woman flowers - a dozen roses perhaps? I would get more out of someone stopping on the way to my house and picking a flower from the side of the road, because the color reminded him of my eyes.

To me it's not about the going through the motions of what's supposed to be done, but about someone doing something personal.

I think you got the gist of what I'm trying to say. English not being my first language I tend to not always have the right words
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 121
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/21/2009 5:04:18 PM
Hey Ms Varinia


BUT, for the sake of the discussion, don't we have to really use the word the way it's commonly understood in today's language?


I would tend to agree, except that I think part of the problem here is that there is little agreement on what it actually means in today's language. What I feel I have picked up from this conversation thread is that people mean quite different things when they use the word. And since it is so vague, people are stating whether they like it or not while in actuality simply talking past each other. To me that implies the need for disambiguation.

Some people here are talking about any and all forms of "respect" within a romantic venue as "chivalry" (which is partly true). From that perspective who could be against it? On the other hand, some people here are equating chivalry with chauvinism, and the patronizing attitude of some men towards women (which isn't entirely false). From that perspective who could be for it? In reality these are people who are not talking about the same thing in spite of using the same word.

I guess the reason I feel compelled to interject a slightly more accurate and nuanced understanding of the word and where it comes from is so that people who view themselves as for it may find the parts they disagree with, and people who think they are against it may realize things they agree with.... but both can do so in an informed way rather than holding the word up as a flag to organize and rally their personal social preconceptions at the expense of a complete literary and historical genre with its own social and philosophical structure.

Erm... but that is just me *cough*.

I see your point, though, about social convention and manners. It can become about acting a part (as other people have pointed out as well). To some extent, though, this is true of ALL manners and social convention. Is it wrong to loudly pass gass while sitting at the dinner table of a nice restaurant? If so, why? It is an artificial rule, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a function. We don't piss in our neighbour's shoe, so to speak.

BTW, I think that the Troubadours would have agreed that the man who picks a flower because it reminds him of the color of your eyes is the one who is truly more chivalrous... not the one who ostentatiously presents you with a dozon roses. There is actually a word for a man or woman who practices false chivalry (including going through the motions as a convention), it is a "lausengier".
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 122
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/21/2009 6:20:06 PM
cdbergerac,

thank you for the various background points, that you've presented. You're certainly correct that a definitions, if more than one exist , should be stated, so that everyone can give an informed response.

And I do agree that we certainly should be able to expect a certain amount of manners and social conventions from others. I believe in the Golden Rule and won't expect more than I'm willing to give myself.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 123
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:05:19 PM
My position has always been that anything fake or false is without value...manners, respect or chivalry don't have value if they are forced or faked...but, genuine niceness does...I also agree that some manners are required even if someone's heart or beliefs aren't in it..it's just polite...even if the motivation is social convention...there are reasons there are social conventions...good ones...

And the historical background has been valuable, cdbergerac, thank you...made me look at it from a different perspective...and, personally, I liked your question about what women did that was chivalric...though you didn't offer your own ideas?
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 124
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/22/2009 11:16:02 PM
Thank you Ms Varinia and Ms Leona, I had hoped I didn't make EVERYONE yawn. :)

BTW, Ms Varinia, Ms Leona is right... you are very clear and I think you don't need to question your ability to communicate in English.

Ms Zangie


I liked your question about what women did that was chivalric...though you didn't offer your own ideas?


I have to admit that I meant to be a bit provocative. I was trying to get people to talk. I guess I should surely be willing to take my own medicine.

There is the one point I presented in which it is considered "chivalry" for the woman to make the first move (in romance). In the old school it was also very important for a woman to protect a man socially (where men are often not so strong)., as well as being his teacher in this area. There is another area in the more esoteric form of "Chivalry" where the lady is a sort of spiritual guide as well, but that is likely not within the scope of this conversation.

In the most direct way, the lady can practice chivalry by...

1) taking an active role in creating romance rather than expecting a man to chase her.
2) understanding that her man is strong in some ways and giving him respect for that, but also being strong where her man is not.
3) expecting her man to give respect and knowing his "arete". Part of "Chivalry" is not only about what one gives, but what one should get from the effort. In the Chivalric system (the version that deals with romance) one of the biggest failings is to regularly pick the wrong person. One thing the lady is expected to do is pick a good man based on genuine qualities. That is to say, the "bad boy complex" is not chivalry on the part of a woman.

Those are some specific points, but in the modern sense I would say that the most important way a woman can be chivalrous is to respect a man as much as she expects to be respected BY the man. Don't do the whole "girlz rule" crap... have some taste. Don't look for a monkey and don't be a monkey. Respect a drive for "refinement" and growth, and you have the basics of "chivalry".
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 125
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/23/2009 1:27:58 AM
Ms Nina

I believe you may misunderstand the point of my post. For one, an etymological defintion is important but it isn't what I am talking about. Yes, "chevalier" and "chivalry" are etymologically related, but no... they don't mean the same thing in the literary or philosophical context. If you look back at my posts on the historical classifications you will find that there is a good reason for this divergence in terms. Women were often raped by "Chevaliers", or Baronial militants. That is not "Chivalry" in the courtly system. I have made clear that I am talking about one particular form of "Chivarly" as the source of romantic manners.

Second, it was indeed assumed that a woman would protect a man in her way (socially) in courtly literature. I can list sources if you wish. See Gawain and the Green Knight, or how about Gawain's section in Wolfram Von Eschenbach's Parzival in the first two sections. Or also think about the lady as the Guide, as in Dante's Paradiso. Or, the Lady as the inspirational force in Cavalcanti. And there is the the example of Guigemar in the Lais of Marie de France.

You may disagree with what you like in a man, but I do know my subject matter from the context in which I am speaking. I only ask that you not confuse the two.
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