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 hellgremlin
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 2
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...Page 2 of 2    (1, 2)
I rather prefer the "strangelet" doomsday scenario, as far as LHC paranoia is concerned. There's something exciting about being turned into a hot lump of exotic particles.
 Mister Logic
Joined: 3/5/2009
Msg: 3
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/23/2009 8:34:47 PM
My bet is that nothing catastrophic will happen.

If I'm right, I'll be able to laugh at all my opponents.

If I'm wrong, there won't be anybody left to laugh at me.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 4
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/23/2009 8:42:48 PM
I can just hear the words echoing through the room - "Dammit. I told you not to turn that thing on".
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 5
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/23/2009 10:01:39 PM
My prediction is...
Something else will go wrong and another delay will occur.
And the physicists will continue to appear on TVO and Discovery, with their seminars talking about what it was all supposed to be doing by now.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 6
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/23/2009 10:10:06 PM
Have to agree with the redundant subject. I found 3 others with LHC, the most recent being:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts9496543.aspx
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 8
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/23/2009 11:22:41 PM
Shhhh- the movie's still in theatres, and you reveal a spoiler right in the OP? For shame...
 AwP
Joined: 12/31/2006
Msg: 9
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/24/2009 12:54:37 AM

My prediction is...
Something else will go wrong and another delay will occur.
And the physicists will continue to appear on TVO and Discovery, with their seminars talking about what it was all supposed to be doing by now.

That's where I'm putting my money.
 hyoid
Joined: 5/12/2009
Msg: 11
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/24/2009 8:23:19 AM
There are cosmic ray collisions at 1,000,000 to 10,000,000 times the LHC energy dropping their debris at a rate of 1 per square kilometer per year.
If those 500 million or so annual events haven't caused any problems, I don't expect the LHC will either.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 13
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/25/2009 1:43:49 AM

I suppose if it does we won't have to worry for long. And oddly enough it would be art imitating life ala what happened to Vulcan in the new Star Trek.

Shall we start the betting? :)
Why bother? The LHC hasn't worked for a year. I'm fed up of wondering if the Earth will explode. I just want it over and done with now. Either run it now and show the world won't blow up, or shut it down.

Anyway, I got a new fridge in February, which has never worked properly, and been looked at by 4 engineers. I'm getting a new one after only 5 months. I'm beginning to think the LHC is just a dud. If they want to claim its fixed, then DON'T tell us about it. Just say it's a dud, fix it on the QT, then do your experiments, and THEN announce you've got it working, and you've discovered the Higgs-Boson, or something equally Earth-shattering.
 AwP
Joined: 12/31/2006
Msg: 14
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/25/2009 10:06:52 AM

If they want to claim its fixed, then DON'T tell us about it. Just say it's a dud, fix it on the QT, then do your experiments, and THEN announce you've got it working, and you've discovered the Higgs-Boson, or something equally Earth-shattering.

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that that's exactly what they'd like to do, but they can't when the press is harassing them for answers, they have to say something. With however many billions they put into it, it better be something good too, or the investors will be pissed.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 15
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/25/2009 10:19:43 AM
I'll take odds nothing will happen but a whole lot of really cool science stuff. Especially since high-energy interactions like what will be going on at the LHC go on in the upper atmosphere all the time. And we're still here!

On the other hand, if I'm wrong, I tend to think the last last thing heard in the control room will be "Oh, sh...."
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 16
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/25/2009 5:07:30 PM

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that that's exactly what they'd like to do, but they can't when the press is harassing them for answers, they have to say something. With however many billions they put into it, it better be something good too, or the investors will be pissed.
Judging by what happens in politics and business, if they intend to pay attention to what the media does, they'll have to act like politicians, and if they intend to pay attention to what the media does, they'll have to act like bankers. All I know about those 2 groups, is that right now, they are the most hated and despised of people in the UK, and they look like having their budgets slashed. Way to kill your funding.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 20
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/28/2009 11:02:45 AM

The Hadron Collider will most likely destroy all logic and reason, leaving the scientists more confused than they all ready are !


I don't even know what that means. Was that supposed to be a play on words?
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 21
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/28/2009 1:14:45 PM

Redundant? Uh no. That was posted back in the beginning March.


I'm just going to point to the above and suggest you parse that out in a manner which does not support my assertion that the thread is redundant. I dare you.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 22
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Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 6/28/2009 4:07:40 PM
The larger the accelerator, the higher the particle mass, the higher the energy at the collision point.

What could we learn from switching on a particle accelerator that say, wrapped around the world twice?


Very little more than what could be learned at the LHC. To obtain the next step in energy level, a particle accelerator will need to much bigger than wrapping around the world twice.
 hyoid
Joined: 5/12/2009
Msg: 27
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 7/13/2009 2:15:43 PM
Can someone explain the benefit of increasing the size of a particle accelerator?


The reason higher energy accelerators need to be bigger ie have larger radius, is that the particles need to be steered in a circle by electromagnets. Each time they pass a specific location in the ring, they are given a boost. Usually by radio frequncy cavities, though laser accleration is being explored. With the increased energy of the individual particles, the magnetic field in the bending magnets must be increased, so as to keep the particles flying near the center of the beam tube, which is a couple of inches in diameter.
Modern superconducting materials (which all high energy accellerators use for their magnets) only allow a finite magnetic field intensity. Exceding this level will 1) cause slight movements in the superconductors, which generates heat, which can cause the superconductor to stop superconducting and "go normal". This "quench" will dissipate all of the energy available from as much as 10,000 amps of DC current. It very quickly(micro seconds) vaporizes the superconductor and the cryogens (liquid helium and liquid nitrogen) providing a pressure burst akin to high explosives. This is what happened in the LHC during the testing last year. I believe the fault (s?) were traced to connections between magnets.

2)Even if the mechanical structure is engineered to limit the physical movement to a safe level, there is still a finite level beyond which the whole superconductor will go normal. This is much easier on the system as the energy is dissipated by the whole magnet instead of pencil point piece of conductor.

One of the main ways of protecting superconductors is, at the first sign of a quench, to energize heating elements that warm up large sections of the superconductor.

In a nut shell, the energy of a synchrotron accelerator is limited by the strength of the magnetic field achievable in the bending magnets.


This may be the only time I can explain this without someone yawning in my face. Thanks.
 hyoid
Joined: 5/12/2009
Msg: 30
Hadron Collider set to go in October...
Posted: 7/14/2009 1:34:44 PM
why can't a smaller collider achieve the same thing though, the particles just makng more rotations?

Any object with mass wants to travel in a straight line. Charged particles like protons, anti-protons, electrons and positrons are bent off a stright line path by magnetic fields. Every time the particles go around, they receive a little boost. As the energy (which =mass) of the particles increases, they require stronger and stronger magnetic fields to keep them bending in the right orbit. Eventually material/structural engineering limitations are reached and the magnetic field can't be increased any more. If they accelerate 1 more time, they won't bend enough and they'll run into the beam pipe, making a big scatter of secondary particles and causing the magnets near the "scrape" to quench.

Because of 20 years more recent materials and designs, the LHC will be 7 times more powerful than Fermilab, though it is only 4 times as long

Note: A virtual yawn just doesn't have the stopping power of a real one.
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