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 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 359
When should the woman offer to pay?Page 10 of 35    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)
^^My point isn't whether or not a woman likes it, my point is that if he's got a problem with it - he should lay it on the table. I agree he should make it clear up front as well - but for some reason (???) men don't seem to want to do that.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 362
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 8:54:41 AM

But it's not about her paying, it's about her offering, i.e. not assuming that I should.

Then say that in your profile or cover it in conversation. Negative: "If you assume I should pay for a meal because I took you out, think again." Positive: I like to share a meal with a woman who enjoys pitching in for the bill as I do." That works fine.

I think it's those who won't pay for their own share or who don't like others offering to pay a share who should say so on their profiles: likewise those who insist that "who invites, pays": perhaps the latter can append data indicating how often they tend to do the inviting.

IMO the person who has the problem should address/avoid it from the beginning. Women who feel the way you described don't necessarily post threads or complain about it. For the women who do, they should be upfront about it so as to avoid it, but it still doesn't mean that men don't need to deal with it before meeting/dating if they also have a problem with it. If both want to avoid something, both need to be clear about it.

Again, why should the onus be on us?

It should be if you are the one not happy with the status quo. If you were, there'd be no discussion - the unhappy should make changes if they can control the outcome to be a better one. By the same token if all men were happy as clams and women didn't like the situation, it'd be on them to do things differently.

But for the men who don't want to pay - be clear you don't, ask for dutch before ordering, or simply don't pay more than your half. Ego shmego. No one really has to do anything they don't want to do. Plain and simple.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 363
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 9:24:01 AM

But I don't have a problem! I've never dated anyone who demanded that I pay for her company: that is the status quo that I'm familiar with, and I'm happy with it. Again, I think someone (her or him) not being willing to share the cost is the problem. It's one I've never encountered in real life: I may do in future, in which case I'll just write off the expense and move on - problem solved!

Which brings me back to my point, which was MEN WHO DO have a problem with this should address it in their profiles and in early conversation. If you don't have a problem and dating is working well for you, then this obviously doesn't apply to you so it's not personal (I don't think I posted directly "at" any particular person). Carry on.

For those men who DO have a problem (and actually want to change it), my post stands. If you don't like something but won't change anything to solve it, STFU.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 365
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 11:29:01 AM

Men who don't want to pay and women who expect it should say so - but women are not the ones who are whining about this issue - it's men.

Exactly - and I thought I made that clear earlier - the person complaining should be the person who addresses it in their profile and in conversation to solve the issue ON THEIR END. If it's both genders, then it's both genders.

Doesn't matter what the other "side" is doing - what matters is that you take action for what is a problem FOR YOU.

The men that pay for women because they can't stand to be alone and then complain about these women need a wake up call.

Exactly. I suspect that men don't think they should address this simply based on the fact that it will drop their dating pool. Well, that sucks but if what you pay or who offers to pay is more important than dating itself to you - own it. Post a disclaimer - I promise it will take care of the problem. If it's not a problem - then why are we all here talking about it?
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 366
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 12:14:49 PM

It's too bad that he left us this past February as I'm sure he would enjoy laughing at the men on these forums who do complain - he called them p*ssies.


I don't think that it should be considered "whining" or "complaining" just because we talk about such issues on an internet forum. That's what people are suppose to do. Only perhaps the ones who truly are angry over it.


You're still singling out one group, whereas all four have a problem with a date who differs strongly. So if it's an issue for all, I don't accept that only the less extravagant male who finds it a problem should be expected to raise the issue on his profile.


Excellent point. I've seen that brought up before. Usually its the ones who question why its always men that pay that people feel they should put it in their profile. Not so much the people who feel men should pay or every combination besides that.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 370
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 7:06:52 PM
^^^One last time (yeah, I've said THAT before), you CANNOT be taken advantage of for something you OFFER to do. You simply can't. If you do something to get a return on it and that return doesn't happen - that's your fault for expecting it. SOME WOMEN want men to pay - suggestions to post it in your profile will keep you from dealing with women who are looking for your money. So how is that proving women want men to pay? It's a distraction from the fact that you feel you'll date less if you post that. Why you care about weeding out women you don't want baffles me.

Furthermore, there are women who expect men to pay, and those women should address that up front IF it's a PROBLEM for her that she wants to correct. It's on her not to date anyone who doesn't want to pick up the check if that's what she expects.

By the same token, men who don't want to cover a meal on a first meet should say so before the meet happens in order to avoid this IF they feel it's a PROBLEM that they want to correct.

Because you know most men will pay because they know a woman won't look at them if they don't and women take adv. of this.

How do we know this when men are complaining that they don't want to? That makes no sense. If he does pay, then that's HIS PROBLEM. We're talking about grown men here.

What do men care what women they keep claiming they don't want to date anyway think of their payment practices with meets/dates? So a woman doesn't want a second date when a man doesn't pick up the tab. So? He doesn't pay for her and he doesn't date her again - how is this a bad thing if she's not his type anyway? If anything that's a successful outcome.

And men who don't want to pay on the first date (or on most dates) are only complaining about posting this in profiles and asking why they should have to do it because it might keep women THEY DON'T WANT TO DATE ANYWAY from contacting them. There are men here that aren't having any problems, and they've identified themselves as such. So in the end, what exactly is the issue here?

If you don't like it - DON'T DO IT. There are no guns to your heads. If you don't want to get stuck with it while on a date/meet then STATE YOUR CASE UPFRONT to avoid having it happen. That's it. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 383
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 9:41:32 PM
SJB2010,

Yeah, guess what? It's unfair. But so are many other things that guys OR girls can get the short end of the stick about. It's worth mentioning in the forums. You shouldn't go too ape-sh!t about it, because you'll just look like a whiny guy complaining.

Thing is, you can statistically break down the chances of a particular girl being offended by a guy not paying for a date. Avoid them if you're that sensitive about it. However, you can do something different...

First off, don't have your first date at Olive Garden, but instead, at a decent bar for a couple drinks and maybe an appetizer. Don't pay by a tab, but with cash for each round. Buy the first round, then get the 2nd round. It's obvious you're paying AGAIN right in front of her. Tell her, here, you can get the next couple, I'll get something to munch on... Basically if she's turned off and has to go, then viola -- you didn't have to wait for some drum-roll at the end with some "final bill". You show that you don't mind as a guy being the initiator in paying a bit more in some leadership role, but at the same time, she knows right there in the casual "date", that it's not a good match if she wants a guy to pay for everything at all times.

However, you should keep something in mind:
- If a gal doesn't make much money or is tight on money, and you're not, yeah, it would be best for you to pay for most if not all of it, if it's known she's in that position. A gal struggling thru grad school w/ a kid, and if you're doing much better? That's when paying at least most of her share is an expected thing.
- If you ASK to TAKE her out, then you are expected to pay for it all. If it's a mutual agreement to get together, then it can be considered okay to have her chip in a good amount.

In the end, there is financial unfairness about it. Also, about guy-girl initial interaction, expecting a guy to approach is unfair, too. But if you want to weed out the sugar-daddy-hunters, go the route of a casual meet up with "rounds" of something paid by cash -- and see how she reacts. Even after the first round, you can say, "you can get the next round, I'll get the next" if you so choose. But there's nothing you can do about women feeling more better about a guy who takes a leadership role when it comes to covering a bill, but come on, deal with that... and nothing you can do about women who DEMAND a guy pay for everything as if they're entitled to it. Those ones can be b!tches, and just re-think what crowd you're chasing.
 You_are_not_alone
Joined: 3/10/2010
Msg: 384
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 12:04:26 AM
I'm not comfortable with the woman paying at all. I would pay each and every single time we go out unless I don't have the money. If the woman seems offended by the notion that I take the bill, then I'm afraid we'll have to part ways.
 peppermint petunias
Joined: 9/2/2009
Msg: 385
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 2:00:47 AM

Jeez, since joining the POF forums, I've become phobic about going out on dates with men. I never realized how pissed men were about paying for dates, until reading countless threads about "gold-digging" women, "dinner-date whores" and "women's liberation" = pay for your own way (and possibly mine) since you usurped my kingdom.


Men on the forums are the only ones who biotch about it. Not all of them..but it seems it is rampant.

Most men IRL are insulted if you offer to pay.

If they ask me out to anything other than coffee/tea. I expect to offer tip or parking only and most won't let you if they are into you.


When should the woman offer to pay?

If I ask you out I expect to pay.

People should not do anything they resent doing or can't afford.
I find the men always want to go have a fine dinner or attend a concert, when the park or a walk downtown would be my preference.

I have yet to hear of a man who went out with a woman they enjoyed going out with and were into that complained about the bill unless she said no to a second date..

Sheesh..

Has not this horse been beat long enough?
 sosdd
Joined: 12/14/2009
Msg: 386
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 4:07:31 AM

Eventually, I'll cave, she'll offer, I'll accept.
wah you want them to beg to pay? I offer and if refused, done with discussion. You ask, you pay imo.
 JerseyGirl2008
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 387
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 5:14:40 AM
OMG - the Bitter Brigade is recruiting awfully young members lately, aren't they?

I guess each and every woman on EARTH is to blame for a select few who have gone to the barbaric lengths of dismembering a man or kicking him so hard he loses a testicle. Yup, we're ALL to blame.

Just like every man on EARTH is to be blamed for battered/maimed/murdered women at the hands of their boyfriends/husbands.

What an ignorant argument - and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current debate about who pays for dinner or coffee.

Some people simply shouldn't be on dating sites if they have this kind of unbalanced thought process.
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 390
view profile
History
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 6:28:21 AM

"Would you go on another date with a guy who didn't pay?"


Yes I would and I have. When I was dating, I had no trouble paying. What I had a problem with was men who had an attitude about it. If you go into a situation expecting a negative outcome, you will guarantee that you get one!.


"Would you slap a guy and/or kick him in the nuts if he cheated?"


Absolutely not! Violence is NEVER ok. My ex-husband cheated and there was never any violence involved.


Women only see it as violence if the man hits the woman, whether she has bruises or not, or when a woman hitsetc a man that RESULTS IN VISIBLE INJURY.


That may be true for a small group of women, but I certainly don’t believe it’s acceptable and I don’t know any women who believe it’s acceptable to hit men or anyone else.

I’m sure that we can find all sorts of atrocities and gender biases if we look hard enough. It doesn’t mean it applies to an entire gender. Many men do things against women also. Is it then fair to assume that all men are capable of those things? Haven’t you ever heard the jokes made about domestic violence toward women? Does that mean that because those jokes exist, men believe it’s ok to beat women up?


People should not do anything they resent doing or can't afford.
I find the men always want to go have a fine dinner or attend a concert, when the park or a walk downtown would be my preference.


Exactly. Many of these men who are constantly complaining about gold-diggers want to use expensive dates to impress women, but when it doesn’t work, use that to **** about how she just wanted a free meal. Stop going all out on a first meet/date. You can weed out the gold-diggers before ever going on the date that way!
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 391
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:03:56 AM
In my experience, the battle of who should pay is only played out
on the forums of fishes. It's never been an issue for me. I pay, I don't
pay, I pay the next time, we share...it just seems to work out. I don't
EXPECT anyone to pay for me anytime, I assume whoever does the asking
pays the first time and the other gets it the next time, but I'm flexible.
I offer to pay my share or all of it or the tip or WHATEVA.

I'm 57 years old and I've never hit another person in my entire life. Never.

Where are all these women that date terrible men for free food and then
apparently slap and kick them?

Jaysus.

 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 392
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:14:55 AM
WOW, the last couple of pages made for an interesting read. Bitter much? LOL

To the dude in the pool(SJB?), get help guy, your way out there!

I've said it many times, dating is not fair, oh he11, neither is life your not gonna change either. I love the 'hot buttons' the genders have! Women don't ask, women don't pay, men only date women for sex, what are all of you talking about? While all of that maybe true for certain members of either gender it hardly represents all.

As for cutting or kicking, sorry don't know the women your dating, but it has NEVER happened to me and yes if it did(doubt it)she would be arrested for assualt. Violence against anybody is wrong.

The only beef I have is hypocrisy. Don't say "who asks, pays", since women don't ask, they will never pay. At least that's the case with 70% or more of women, so saying you do, is akin to saying "I drive drunk and never had an accident so what's the beef with drunk driving". While thats great for you, you hardly represent the norm.

Aside from the rhetoric, the only point in being here is to find someone. When you put preferences, limitations, restrictions on your selection, dating process you may be eliminating the very person your looking for. Yeah I know, you don't want to date a guy who comes up to your belt buckle or jumps your bones every 9 minutes, or a girl who wants a spending spree on you every week or is physically abusive. So then when they exhibit those negative behaviors, STOP DATING THEM!!

I realize we are all bored due to lack of new material, but beating this to death due to lack of new threads seems hardly productive.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 394
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:59:30 AM
Sorry, I was off living life and missed some of this. Lemme catch up:

WIP, we are discussing the double standard here and women expecting men to pay. It's not about the men.

Are you telling me that women are going on dates alone? Because if men are on the same date we can't NOT talk about the men. And as a man if you don't want to pay - then why are you? I don't care what SOME women say they want.

It's about the WOMEN who expect men to pay, who don't call them back or accept a 2nd for this reason if they don't pay, and other women backing these women up for dumping a guy who doens't pay.

WHO CARES IF WOMEN YOU DON'T WANT TO DATE CALL YOU BACK? This argument to me is fascinating. If you don't want to pay and women that want you to don't call back HOW IS THIS A BAD THING? Sorry I figured the first 99 times I typed the text in lowercase it must be blending in too much to notice. If SOME (not all) women dump men who don't pay - how is this a problem? Sounds like two people who aren't each others types anyway.

If a woman didn't pay no women would back him saying he was right in not calling her for another date.

Some women will rally about this. THIS IS NOT ALL WOMEN. Please stop painting all women with this brush. If you're going to declare everyone with a vagina as wanting a man to pay for food - no one will want to read your posts or discuss this with you, because you can't possibly know what every woman out there does. In this thread I have seen quite a few women say they don't expect a man to pay. Go back and read everything again for Pete's sake, then come back and argue when you're not biased.

It's not about the men and it being a win-win or whatever. It's about the WOMEN with this attitude and mindset that men should pay.

Why do you CARE what women who want men to pay do if you don't want those women? The declaration that all women are like this is ridiculous - maybe all the ones you choose to have interest in are. Bottom line is that if the money's more important to you then shelving dating all together should be something you do pretty easily if no one you're meeting agrees with your check paying issue.

SO....are there some really good looking women using this as a disclaimer and this bothers you personally because you're not getting anywhere with these women? That's the only reason I can see that you'd be upset about this.

OMG - the Bitter Brigade is recruiting awfully young members lately, aren't they?

I think they are now going after 13 year old boys.

What an ignorant argument - and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current debate about who pays for dinner or coffee. Some people simply shouldn't be on dating sites if they have this kind of unbalanced thought process.

Exactly. For men who feel this way about women, why are they here on a dating site, here having this discussion or bothering with women in general? One would think it'd be easier to just scrap women and (happily) go off and do something seen as more worthwhile, like collecting stamps.
 sosdd
Joined: 12/14/2009
Msg: 396
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 8:24:39 AM

The only beef I have is hypocrisy. Don't say "who asks, pays", since women don't ask, they will never pay. At least that's the case with 70% or more of women, so saying you do, is akin to saying "I drive drunk and never had an accident so what's the beef with drunk driving". While thats great for you, you hardly represent the norm.
Really and where are your statistics that back this up? 100% of the women I know do. I believe they are quite normal. Most women are pretty darn independent and recognize the economical situation everyone is in. Some may just do the dutch thing instead of paying for the dude, but that would be the presidence of the relationship, they each stand on their own. I know one woman that is the bread winner in her "family". She pays for almost everything and he is more of the houseman and child care provider.

This is 2010. Women do ask men out. Women work and pay their own way and pay on dates. It isn't odd. The server puts the down the tab between people now days. The server doesn't just put it in front of a man any more.

WIP has it right. Ya don't dig the women not sharing, don't go out with her. No problem. You aren't a good match.

But the OP sounds like he says no and expects the woman to twist his arm to let her pay and when he refuses to allow her to, expects her to keep trying. That is crap. If you refuse, don't expect her to keep offering. Arguing about the check is embarrassing and not proper restaurant etiquette imo. Make these decisions before you go out. Similar to who buys the condoms.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 397
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 9:25:26 AM
"Really and where are your statistics that back this up?"

Well just like you, 96% of the women I have dated in the last 2 1/2 years on POF, I have asked(26 out of 27). Similarly the men I talk to on here and IRL, tell me they have a similar experience. For your information, on almost any thread, on here, including this one, the numbers are similar(no I didn't check).

Most women won't write a first email, much less ask out first. A big thing on here, in my age group is the "peek a boo" gambit. They make you a favorite, in the hopes you notice and write them first.

As for the server and the tab. LOL Frankly I don't want to debate, count out pennies, cause embarassment or any of that garbage. I usually excuse myself to wash my hands, after we order dessert. I signal the waiter on my way out, hand him my credit card, or cash and settle up BEFORE returning to the table, without my date knowing. No muss, no fuss and no embarassing debate or awkward reaching for the purse or other nonsense.

"I know one woman that is the bread winner in her family"

My daughter is also, he stays home with the kids. She has the only job, however as she puts it, if he had a normal job, he would need 3 or 4 of them to make what she does. So it makes no sense for him to work and the kids to be raised by strangers or help.

As for your assertion of the year 2010 and that 'women' DO ask men out. No, only 1 in 3 at best from what I've seen. Even then, it's mostly the under 35 crowd, where this exists. I take my hat off to you, if you ask. But shhhhhhh, don't let the sisterhood know, they will revoke your woman card!! LOL
 ~JustSimplyMe~
Joined: 8/18/2006
Msg: 398
view profile
History
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 9:46:22 AM
I always offer to pay...whether its the first date or the last date.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 400
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 11:55:11 AM

Why can't men say NO to women who suggest expensive dates? The logic doesn't add up to what they say.

They should. If the guy is by default going to be at least the main payer when it comes to a first date, he should pick where to go (within her realm of tastes of course, too).

Another thing a guy can do, when it comes to a profile, is to state how he feels about the initial dating process, without pin-pointing paying the bill, but the bigger picture, as to weed out gals who would be offended if the guy wanted to split the bill in any way.

He could state that when it comes to the initial dating process, he doesn't believe in guys putting on a dog & pony show to "prove something" on a one-sided panel to have to buy or entertain his way to her liking... but seeing it as a two-way street where there is no dog & pony show, but an equal, casual setting where both guy & girl get to know each other and feel each other out.

I think if something like that was made bold in someone's profile, a gal looking to be "pampered" for dates would lose interest... or in the very least, such a gal wouldn't be shocked & offended if at the end of a first meeting he had her cover some of the bill.
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 401
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 12:19:10 PM
#1~ Women like me usually ask a guy out because most fear rejection from assertive types
that actually voice their opinions without the sugar.
#2~ We do write the first e-mails often and are willing to drive hours to meet a man we like.
#3~ We share half of all expenses on a regular basis, except when you guys insist.
#4~ I'm never shocked or offended when I ask a man out for an expensive meal and I pay. I'm shocked and offended when he wants to wear blue jeans. The local hangout would have been a much better for his choice of attire.
#5~ Get over yourselves guys; women like me are everywhere. Get out, be daring, and ask us if we'd like a cup of coffee or a drink some place. All we might do is say yes, and pay our own way.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 402
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 5:38:49 PM
#1~ Women like me usually ask a guy out because most fear rejection from assertive types
that actually voice their opinions without the sugar.
#2~ We do write the first e-mails often and are willing to drive hours to meet a man we like.
#3~ We share half of all expenses on a regular basis, except when you guys insist.
#4~ I'm never shocked or offended when I ask a man out for an expensive meal and I pay. I'm shocked and offended when he wants to wear blue jeans. The local hangout would have been a much better for his choice of attire.
#5~ Get over yourselves guys; women like me are everywhere. Get out, be daring, and ask us if we'd like a cup of coffee or a drink some place. All we might do is say yes, and pay our own way.


Let me cast a dissenting vote. Women like you are few and far between. I haven't kept track, but I think I've been asked maybe three times in my life. And I completely enjoyed it each time. But if I waited for women to make the first move, I might as well take a vow of celibacy.

I've had one girl friend who always, without fail, paid for her half of the expenses. She was the most awesome lady I've ever met.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 403
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:30:03 PM

But if I waited for women to make the first move, I might as well take a vow of celibacy.

IMO this is most of the problem. Men aren't upset enough about this to date less, and not enough of them want to step back from dating to make any type of significant shift in dynamics.

Seems women will take celibacy over dating and for long periods of time if they don't see a lot of what they prefer.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 404
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:59:00 PM

Men aren't upset enough about this to date less, and not enough of them want to step back from dating to make any type of significant shift in dynamics.


I'm not upset at all. Even if I were, I don't think I'd be willing to go on a silly crusade. I'm not out to change the world, I'm out to enjoy my life.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 406
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 8:42:06 PM
I'm not upset at all. Even if I were, I don't think I'd be willing to go on a silly crusade. I'm not out to change the world, I'm out to enjoy my life.

That's good. I was only quoting you for an example of what I think most men are thinking. If you're cool with the way things are that's great...but I think most men go along with the pay for dinner thing in an attempt to land more dates, and instead of realizing the woman has the right to decide she's not wanting another date they tend to take it as being set up for a meal.

I'm just saying that for men who this really bothers - they'll do more about it than continue to pick up checks and complain; they'll sit back and wait to be asked out, they'll make their case clear (and why not bring up the check paying directly? BTW) or they will step back from dating as long as they don't agree with the dynamic of it.

I know no guy here is expecting women with this mindset to change when for these women, it's not a problem (mountain/Mohammed).
 sosdd
Joined: 12/14/2009
Msg: 407
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/6/2010 11:02:37 PM

I'm shocked and offended when he wants to wear blue jeans.
Or shorts! I had reservations to this very nice Italian Restaurant, drove to pick up my date and there he stood in front of his kids in shorts. I was in a nice dress and heels. Rillos hasn't seen me in ages and may never see me again, sigh... But Eat N Park got a kick out of my being dressed up.

Women that are out there to find the right man are not the ones that are afraid to email, pay for a date, etc. Men that are out there to find the right woman should also ask for what he expects and if she doesn't dig it, they aren't right for each other, simple.
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