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 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 660
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When should the woman offer to pay?Page 21 of 35    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)

I don't care how it's worded unless a guy says "I want to treat you to XYZ" no woman should assume it's not on her to contribute.

Okay, great. But if that's the case (which it is, by default) -- why would you be telling a guy he's in position where he Should Announce to a gal, prior to a date, that he's Not going to be paying for her bill, if one is to assume by common sense that she Is in position to cover her own bill? I can see telling a guy that if he can't sleep at night if a gal ends up being upset if he doesn't in that situation -- sure, why don't you try announcing it beforehand if this is putting you in actual depression-- even though it's a really bad date-marketing move to do so? :) But besides that -- no, he's not in position to Announce it any more than anything else that's assumed Not to occur (like a flower, or makeout session in backseat).

As you point out, if the guy's not asking/declaring to Take her out -- then the ball's in Her court *IF* she does demand to be paid for -- as he is not in any ethical/cultural position to pay for her in that situation. If anyone's going to be in position to Announce anything, it'd be the person who is Expecting something Outside What One Should Expect By Default -- and in this case, a girl who Does Want More than what Should be expected.

Just like he isn't in any expected position to bring her a flower, by default, and no woman should assume that he is to bring her flower(s). Hence, if she doesn't get a flower, she's the one out of line IF she Expects them from any adequate guy -- as that's not the assumed expectation to be had. For the gals who believe that the guy Should be always bringing her flower(s) on every big and small date, she's the one in position to announce that demand, if that's what she Expects a guy to do. Not a guy to declare on profile or pre-date "No, I'm not going to bring a flower on every single date" -- as that makes one sound like one venting from bad dates (bad marketing).

My argument with you is: The guy is Not in any cultural/ethical dating position when not asking/declaring to Take her out, to Announce beforehand that he Won't pay for her bills (even though to him, depending on that date, that may not be so). As you said, that's what Should be the default assumption had by Everyone anyway. So, you have to say he's 100% fine as far as any cultural-ethics are concerned by not expecting to cover her share, as you point it shouldn't be expected by anyone -- but you could say that maybe it might be a good TIP for Bob who hates the concept to Announce it (which I would disagree, unless he's going absolutely bonkers or something; again, ball's not in his court).

And in general, the complaints from guys isn't about Sally or Jane flipping out because he's not paying -- it's more about the Philosophical Concept that too many gals Don't have what you describe that they should: The Normal assumption that if he's not asking/declaring to Take you out, he's Not in any expected position to pay for you. He may end up covering most or all! But he's not in any Expected position to -- any more than to bring a flower or pick you up on that first date.
 NJgirl116
Joined: 7/3/2015
Msg: 661
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 5:01:54 PM
Flowers are not something anyone expects unless it's valentine's day but it certainly is a nice gesture. I've gotten lots of flowers on dates, not bragging just saying, and every time I was happy like a toddler with a shiny new toy.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 662
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 6:58:06 PM

Okay, great. But if that's the case (which it is, by default) -- why would you be telling a guy he's in position where he Should Announce to a gal, prior to a date, that he's Not going to be paying for her bill, if one is to assume by common sense that she Is in position to cover her own bill?

Because this thread started with the guy complaining. Since he has the problem and is making it a topic, my response is "then make sure before the date you make it clear you don't want to"

I can see telling a guy that if he can't sleep at night if a gal ends up being upset if he doesn't in that situation -- sure, why don't you try announcing it beforehand if this is putting you in actual depression-- even though it's a really bad date-marketing move to do so? :) But besides that -- no, he's not in position to Announce it any more than anything else that's assumed Not to occur (like a flower, or makeout session in backseat).

He is if he doesn't like it and makes a case about it. Again no one's required to date. This is equivalent to hitting yourself with a hammer and whining about how painful it is. Just stop hitting yourself if it REALLY bothers you.

As you point out, if the guy's not asking/declaring to Take her out -- then the ball's in Her court *IF* she does demand to be paid for -- as he is not in any ethical/cultural position to pay for her in that situation. If anyone's going to be in position to Announce anything, it'd be the person who is Expecting something Outside What One Should Expect By Default -- and in this case, a girl who Does Want More than what Should be expected.

The person who's sick of the way it goes and starts a thread about it (and those who chime in and agree they are sick of it too) are the ones who need to implement a plan. Accept your fate or change it. Don't keep doing it and whine about it. Sorry.

Just like he isn't in any expected position to bring her a flower, by default, and no woman should assume that he is to bring her flower(s). Hence, if she doesn't get a flower, she's the one out of line IF she Expects them from any adequate guy -- as that's not the assumed expectation to be had. For the gals who believe that the guy Should be always bringing her flower(s) on every big and small date, she's the one in position to announce that demand, if that's what she Expects a guy to do. Not a guy to declare on profile or pre-date "No, I'm not going to bring a flower on every single date" -- as that makes one sound like one venting from bad dates (bad marketing).

If he does it repeatedly and complains about it then he needs to stop doing it - unless he wants to argue with her about it at the restaurant which is his choice - he's better off avoiding the situation to begin with. Making sure he gives the information before the date will help prevent it.


My argument with you is: The guy is Not in any cultural/ethical dating position when not asking/declaring to Take her out, to Announce beforehand that he Won't pay for her bills (even though to him, depending on that date, that may not be so). As you said, that's what Should be the default assumption had by Everyone anyway. So, you have to say he's 100% fine as far as any cultural-ethics are concerned by not expecting to cover her share, as you point it shouldn't be expected by anyone -- but you could say that maybe it might be a good TIP for Bob who hates the concept to Announce it (which I would disagree, unless he's going absolutely bonkers or something; again, ball's not in his court).

I didn't even read that. The person who wants change is the one who needs to make changes. If that's him, her or both isn't relevant. The one who keeps perpetuating the thing they don't like is guilty when it keeps happening. Pfft.

And in general, the complaints from guys isn't about Sally or Jane flipping out because he's not paying -- it's more about the Philosophical Concept that too many gals Don't have what you describe that they should: The Normal assumption that if he's not asking/declaring to Take you out, he's Not in any expected position to pay for you. He may end up covering most or all! But he's not in any Expected position to -- any more than to bring a flower or pick you up on that first date.

That's a fantastic concept. Are we discussing this for the sake of where society stands at this time? Cause if we are it's already been discussed 90 times in these forums alone. Does anyone want to fix this or just keep going over how annoying it is to the rest of us? I don't do this, and it doesn't have to happen. I'm sick of hearing about it...
 Kissfromarose77
Joined: 4/13/2015
Msg: 663
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 7:10:19 PM

Jezzus .....want some cheese with this whine?


OK wise guy, as long as you don't mind treating me. There's a French mountain cheese called Beaufort d'Ete that I want to try. It sells for $44.99 / lb.

How is trying to weed out potential gold diggers by going Dutch different from what women do? Are women who try to weed out players by not putting out on the first date whiners too? You can never be %100 certain that you won't be used by somebody for money or sex but you can do things to reduce the possibility.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 664
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 7:38:49 PM
Weed out the gold diggers by not trying to buy her affection.

Flowers, blazers and dinners on the coast are not guaranteed aphrodisiacs.

If you keep buying dinners and offering helicopter rides, don't be surprised if they continue to expect that.

In other words, date what you can afford and deal with the consequences.
 Peas_
Joined: 5/2/2015
Msg: 665
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 7:41:47 PM


Flowers, blazers and dinners on the coast are not guaranteed aphrodisiacs.

If you keep buying dinners and offering helicopter rides, don't be surprised if they continue to expect that.

In other words, date what you can afford and deal with the consequences.


What happened to wooing? sigh....oh yes, flowers, etc are aphrodisiacs. How'd you like your blow job?
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 666
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 7:42:57 PM
I want to be wooed too.

So, speak into the mic first, and then the blazer and flowers will follow...
 Peas_
Joined: 5/2/2015
Msg: 667
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 7:47:00 PM
ya, I know how it works.
 CrookCatcher
Joined: 7/14/2014
Msg: 668
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 8:35:10 PM

Are women who try to weed out players by not putting out on the first date whiners too?


Hmm...there may be a slight difference in paying for a date than having sex on the first date.

But having said that, I'm not 20 anymore so as I've gotten to be the wise guy you referenced above I would have to say I might be a little taken aback for the lack of another word at the moment, if a woman I chose to ask out actually wanted to have sex on the first date. Just me, but at my age I would have to think my picker was breaking (has a couple of times) if that was thrown out there by a woman I have just met and asked out. Now having some kind of history is different though.

But after reading so much here I'm almost certain that all this drama over who pays is a generational thing more than anything else. I choose to pay for my dates if I ask a woman out because that's the way I was raised and one of the values I was taught. If you and the women you date are satisfied with splitting the tab that's ok too.

All I can suggest is never.....ever.....even if your life depends on it....quote a first grade sticks and stones rhyme in defense of yourself.....just no....:)
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 669
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When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 8:49:48 PM

But after reading so much here I'm almost certain that all this drama over who pays is a generational thing more than anything else. I choose to pay for my dates if I ask a woman out because that's the way I was raised and one of the values I was taught. If you and the women you date are satisfied with splitting the tab that's ok too.


That's what I think. I see it also as a bit cultural. Many of the Canadian women have said they would pay. Many of the Canadian men have said their women pay. So it doesn't make me a genius to see the connection.

That being said, I don't see why there is an incessant whining about it. If you( not you exclusively) wanna pay go ahead, if you want to split it go ahead. Communication ! I get the feeling that many promoting going Dutch are getting resistance when they actually bring it up (or they aren't dating).

*If I was dating, I would have no problem putting up that we will go Dutch, like Sunshine suggests, if that is what I expected. Hell, I actually at one time was telling them they would have to pay for me too ....was a joke but didn't leave my inbox empty at all !

Dutch person on date:

man: hey you want an ice cream!
Girl: sure
Man :ok, give me 5 bucks!
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 670
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History
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/22/2015 9:58:51 PM

The person who's sick of the way it goes and starts a thread about it (and those who chime in and agree they are sick of it too) are the ones who need to implement a plan.

Ehhh, not necessarily. I mean, there are some things ya just have to deal with. The issue/complaint one can have is "too many guys/girls are like this" -- that will still be an issue to b!tch about, whether they weed them out or not thru (bad-marketing) announcements in profiles or initial conversation.

I think if a guy had an argument in a thread saying "How come is it every time I go out on a date, a gal's like [this] -- how do I prevent this from happening to me? How do I avoid these girls?" -- then yes, changing things up would be more in order. I'd say to said guy before making announcements like "Hey babe, I'm not taking you out. Make sure you bring your purse. If I like ya though, oh, sure, I'll pay. Thank me though," -- I'd say learn to go after more independently-minded career women who don't seem so "traditional", ensure that one doesn't get the wrong idea you're Taking them out when you're not, don't go anywhere expensive -- and yes, just deal with it. If she doesn't thank you when she should when you do -- yeah, it's an indicator she Expects it, and that's part of the weeding process for ya. All in all, don't take it too harshly, don't go to places expensively, and just learn to accept it to an extent. Better than her BF showing up, thinking you were the guy boning her while he was at work, when it was really the paper boy. :)
 loveisatemple
Joined: 3/28/2014
Msg: 671
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 2:15:43 AM
If I have to hear the mansplanation for. the uptrillionth time, I will upchuck.
Either side is free to take offense, and move along.
Problem solved.
No mind melds needed.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 672
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 2:22:21 AM
What happened to wooing? sigh....oh yes, flowers, etc are aphrodisiacs. How'd you like your blow job?
--------------
Somewhere between missionary and asian cowgirl works for me.
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 673
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When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 8:43:28 AM
Sunnydaysss you seem to know a lot on that topic, eh? lol
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 674
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 8:47:16 AM
Any talk of your finances (i.e. car payment), their financial distress or their terrible work schedule?

Get the fvck out of Dodge!
 Kissfromarose77
Joined: 4/13/2015
Msg: 675
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 10:03:44 AM

All I can suggest is never.....ever.....even if your life depends on it....quote a first grade sticks and stones rhyme in defense of yourself.....just no....:)


Hog wash. Should I tell them "it takes one to know one?"
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 676
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When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 10:06:21 AM

AverageJOE lol~ I do reading it back, sound the gold digger:)))


Spelled my name wrong, you must be reading too much of NG posts where he uses AVGJOE and AVGJANE ! and Sally also. I was going to suggest we go back to the classics :Tom,**** and Mary...generational thing I guess :(


But in my dating days I armed myself with certain books
How to spot a dangerous man type books and articles


Ah! I am probably in chapter 1, you have been taught well !


Very important in dating minefield:)))))~ dog eat dog world out there:))))))


Some like to be eaten by the dog though , much better than a face lick :)
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 677
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 10:18:49 AM
"Weed out the gold diggers by not trying to buy their affection"

>>>ding ding ding! we have a winner. thank you Clooney.

If you got the bux, a weekend bender at the casino is pocket change, and you won't think your partner is a gold digger. If you live off the dollar menu, then you obvious would disagree with the above.

People exist in different leagues. we're just not always happy to date inside them. We'll work hard for what we want, not for what we're willing to accept.

a user should stand out to you instantly...b/c they act different than you. when you can see their attempts and not see that as a red flag...its b/c you share something in common. sorry if that hurts a little bit.
 CrookCatcher
Joined: 7/14/2014
Msg: 678
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 10:19:27 AM

Hog wash. Should I tell them "it takes one to know one?"


I was thinking more along the lines of..."kiss my ass" but I know that's a stretch for a non aggressive type male.

You do what works for you big guy. ;)
 ohenryx
Joined: 3/12/2010
Msg: 679
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When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 10:32:23 AM

NJgirl116
Flowers are not something anyone expects unless it's valentine's day but it certainly is a nice gesture. I've gotten lots of flowers on dates, not bragging just saying, and every time I was happy like a toddler with a shiny new toy.

I used to bring flowers (or at least a single flower) to a date. But if we were meeting somewhere, rather than picking her up at home, then the flower became something that she had to deal with all through the evening.

This subject has been dealt with rather extensively here in the forums (not recently, though). The majority of women expressing an opinion were opposed to flowers, especially on a first date / initial meeting.


CrookCatcher
I would have to say I might be a little taken aback for the lack of another word at the moment, if a woman I chose to ask out actually wanted to have sex on the first date. Just me, but at my age I would have to think my picker was breaking (has a couple of times) if that was thrown out there by a woman I have just met and asked out.


That has happened to me. And yes, it always surprises me, but in a rather nice way. I tend to evaluate things, try and decide if there is something wrong with the way she is approaching things, or if, just maybe, she REALLY does like me. (cue Sally Fields at the Academy Awards).

After all, sometimes two people really do have a strong attraction on that initial meeting. Rare, but it does happen. The hopes of such a thing happening (strong initial attraction) are one of the reasons I keep trying at this oh-so-difficult dating game.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 680
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 11:33:57 AM

Ehhh, not necessarily. I mean, there are some things ya just have to deal with.

That's precisely my point. No, you don't. If you continue to deal with things with dating especially, you are allowing it. Period.
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 681
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History
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 11:50:19 AM

That has happened to me. And yes, it always surprises me, but in a rather nice way. I tend to evaluate things, try and decide if there is something wrong with the way she is approaching things, or if, just maybe, she REALLY does like me. (cue Sally Fields at the Academy Awards).

After all, sometimes two people really do have a strong attraction on that initial meeting. Rare, but it does happen. The hopes of such a thing happening (strong initial attraction) are one of the reasons I keep trying at this oh-so-difficult dating game.


Agreed, it does happen, and there is nothing wrong with it, unless ones moral fiber is a bit too reserved/conservative for such things. But if one looks at each meeting about having FUN with the "we will straighten it all out later" attitude one will be less likely to be taken a back or over analyse it. I tended to go into each meeting to have fun , create fun, and then figure it all out later. The biggest problem is when one meets someone completely opposite!

"we will straighten it all out later", I am waiting for NG to analyze that!


The hopes of such a thing happening (strong initial attraction) are one of the reasons I keep trying at this oh-so-difficult dating game.


Actually, if that is what you seek and can just "FEEL" it quickly or within a short time, you are actually a very lucky guy! You can avoid many of the things that daters often do that wastes time and is unproductive imho. Some of those things were being discussed recently in the "who pays", "date time limit" and "going Dutch threads".
 newoldgirl
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 682
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 11:56:04 AM

Dutch person on date:

man: hey you want an ice cream!
Girl: sure
Man :ok, give me 5 bucks!


That's funny :)

I posted earlier in this thread about a man who simply would NOT let me pay for anything and got an expensive hotel room for us without actually asking me first if I wanted to spend the night with him. The dates and the unused room probably set him back close to 600 bucks by the fourth date ( the ONLY thing I managed to pay for was movie tickets because I beat him to the ticket machine)...but anyway...he was DUTCH! LOL. I think he might have been aware that Dutch people have a rep for being cheap, and he was determined to prove otherwise. He even bet lots of money at the casino where we stopped for an after dinner drink! LOL.

Despite his spending, I know he was very motivated to earn and keep money. He worked like an SOB...tons of hours of OT. He also was frugal with himself. His car was immaculate and well maintained, but quite old. He didn't spend money on clothes, etc.

I suspect had we dated for longer I would have found that the big spending was not really who he was, and that's just one more reason I think he shouldn't have done it!
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 683
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When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 12:04:39 PM

If you continue to deal with things with dating especially, you are allowing it. Period.

You're allowing a risk of it happening on dates in general (dating in and of itself). The question is cutting out your risks. And it doesn't make what happens acceptable. One has to deal with the fact that sometimes a date's going to crying over their ex. Or hitting on the server. They didn't "allow" THAT to happen. "Yeah Bob, phhhhffft. You allowed that to happen man." DURING the date they may have been able to prevent it.

But there's not a Ton a guy can do without throwing out too many babies with the bathwater, on preventing a gal from being thankless and feeling Entitled to be bought & paid for when he didn't ask/say he was Taking her out on a date. He can avoid the obvious when scoping profiles, which would be good. But announcing things -- no, not worth it. Bad marketing -- too many babies thrown in the dumpster. When chatting before any get-together, read their emotion, attitude, persona, etc. to throw out any bad bathwater. But in the end, you'll get some of that -- just the same as a gal not really liking ya in the first place really, but wanting attention & a date to get her feet wet (being a stepping stone). Happens. One can't prevent it all -- and yeah, it is up for forum debate to criticize both situations (Entitlement problems, using others as stepping-stones for dates, etc).

And again, a guy can realize he's throwing out (or could throw out) too many babies that are otherwise good -- and bring up the subject of WTH on the concept of Entitlement, in this case. Yeah, it's stupid. But that's a separate subject than tips on how to minimize it. It isn't "Shut up! Don't talk about how silly it is! Hush!" :)
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 684
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 7/23/2015 12:24:22 PM
^^^You keep arguing the risks you take when you date. That assumes dating has to happen. It does not.

Also, I'm not talking about one random incident of someone doing something - I'm talking about a string of incidents that are all the same. If that's happening to you (and you don't like it) then either deal with it or change it. Complaining is annoying and not effective to preventing it from happening again.

You can throw out all the babes with the bathwater if they are all expecting you to buy them dinner and never talk to you again. That my friend is a pattern, and only the person experiencing the pattern can recognize it and change it. If they don't change it they can't be that upset about it, and in that case why tell us about it?
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