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 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 312
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When should the woman offer to pay?Page 9 of 35    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35)

He then wanted to put it all on his credit card and then me pay him back. I don't like doing that.

He didn't seem to really like that. He wanted to "look good" was what it came down to. Ego pure and simple. It doesn't work this way guys, you can't look the "paying guy" if you aren't paying. If you think this is going to make you look good, then do it. If not, STFU.

^^^Completely agree. What's going on is that some of these guys who want the bill split, can't control what that action looks like to everyone else, and what that says about him....so he's posturing...damage control. And it goes beyond that a bit. I think many think that it isn't really couth behavior on the part of the man. The server said volumes with the smirk.

From my own experience...there is still a tacit expectation when I'm out with any man, my father my s/o, a friend, my brothers...that the man at the table will pay the bill. (By the way I offer to pay all the time and do many times.)

I know from all of your posts WH that you've always paid and insist on it...and see nothing wrong with doing that, but the reality imho, is most women don't; certainly not because they can't but because there are some things in dating that are almost ritualistic..and this seems like one of them. Expectations...about male/female roles in dating are changing slowly, but we're not there yet. The waiter was judging. Your guy felt the 'eyes' of judging even before the smirk...He knows exactly what that looks like...to ask you to pay him back...He didn't seem to care what that looked liked to you, and was much more interested in how that appeared to the male server, and posture to cover.

'Paying' still seems more a are part of custom. Your date was trying to maintain that he was 'the man'...He was clearly aware of how that reads out there. I don't know how long it will take to see widespread change re this paying thing, but as it is now, boys 16 years old in March 2010 where I live are still keen on paying for their dates---and that's years after women have been paying---and they are just beginning their dating lives. jmo
 canoga77
Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 314
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 2:47:47 PM
I also agree that the men who aren't happy with paying on dates should take that to their gender board meetings - because other men have set this standard - so they can't blame women for expecting something that for years men told them they should expect. Men who buy women drinks to break the ice in bars have a lot of nerve complaining some women are out scouting free drinks. If you don't do it, no one can take you for it.

Using your logic, if most women put out on the first date, then it would not be unreasonable for all the men you date to expect the same. And you would be a "whiner" for complaining about it. If the last ten guys you've dated paid for your meals and drinks on the first date, then it was their decision to do so. But getting offended if you're asked to pay for your share of the meal is childish.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 317
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 3:37:52 PM

Paderic - you have no children. Have you ever lived with a father and daughter for more than one year? I have lived with my brothers for almost all my life. They both have daughters. I have observed the behaviour. Mothers do NOT go around saying stuff like "I'll get my shotgun" and "he better treat her right". No, most times mothers do that with sons.


I grew up with four sisters. So, yes, I did spend a lot of time in the presence of a father and his daughters. What you say is nonsense, plenty of mothers tell their daughters what to expect from a date.

What does a shotgun have to do with expecting a guy to pay on a date?
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 318
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 3:53:35 PM

You know for a fact that mothers have no involvement in such conversations?

I know based on my friends, women I've known over the years, and many conversations like this that IF the man is still in the household - moms tend to worry about their daughters dating nice men while fathers tend to focus on ambition. In situations where a split or divorce has taken place, many fathers both give their daughters whatever they want out of guilt and tell their daughters not to date men who don't do the same - which sets a pretty solid standard.

I know a few men who raised their daughters to take care of themselves and not depend on a man for anything but those men are all single fathers who are primary caretakers and they all married/lived with a woman who wouldn't work and took them for a lot of money.

Using your logic, if most women put out on the first date, then it would not be unreasonable for all the men you date to expect the same. And you would be a "whiner" for complaining about it.

Exactly. If you don't want to sleep with a guy - don't. If you do - go ahead. But don't complain if the sex didn't lead to anything more (just as men can't complain if they pick up a check and it doesn't lead to anything more), and don't complain that the guy tried to get laid.

If the last ten guys you've dated paid for your meals and drinks on the first date, then it was their decision to do so. But getting offended if you're asked to pay for your share of the meal is childish.

Glad we agree.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 319
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 4:19:29 PM

I know based on my friends, women I've known over the years, and many conversations like this that IF the man is still in the household - moms tend to worry about their daughters dating nice men while fathers tend to focus on ambition. In situations where a split or divorce has taken place, many fathers both give their daughters whatever they want out of guilt and tell their daughters not to date men who don't do the same - which sets a pretty solid standard.

I know a few men who raised their daughters to take care of themselves and not depend on a man for anything but those men are all single fathers who are primary caretakers and they all married/lived with a woman who wouldn't work and took them for a lot of money.


Sounds a lot like stereotyping to me.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 320
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 4:28:20 PM

Sounds a lot like stereotyping to me.

You asked what I know, and I told you - if you want to call it stereotyping because my past experience doesn't agree with your point, so be it.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 321
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 5:01:43 PM

You asked what I know, and I told you - if you want to call it stereotyping because my past experience doesn't agree with your point, so be it.


I call it stereotyping because your limited sample size is not statistically representative of the population as a whole. You're forming conclusions based on the dynamics of what, half a dozen families?
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 322
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 5:24:58 PM
^^^^Wow, that'd be a sheltered life at almost 42 years old, yikes.

More like at least 20 personally, actually - overall I have a lot of friends, and in the businesses I am in a whole lot more aquaintences, and then there are the people I just talk to and ask about/discuss stuff like this. I spent 10 years in radio, 25 years in music and a lot of on air/social venue discussion was this sort of topic.

I did not say all. I didn't say I thought every last man in the world did it, but I do believe that a lot of men with daughters tend to do it - in a protective nature. It goes on enough that it's something to consider.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 323
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 5:34:02 PM
You've clinically observed the behavior of 20 families to the point that you're able to diagnose which parent has passed on certain behaviors to their offspring? I'm impressed.

You have implied that your observations are true in the majority of cases.

Here's a thought: Women are responsible for their own behavior. They also have TWO parents that influence them in a lot of ways. Blaming their attitudes on the father is ridiculous.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 324
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 5:46:01 PM
"The server said volumes with the smirk."

Maybe, maybe not, as a server he probably sees alot of women, who think 'no match', I'll pay for my own. So he maybe smirking at the guy going down in flames.

As for ego, well for some I'm sure, for others, like me, not ego just what I like and am used to.

Yeah I know, I was arguing for the other side a few pages ago. I see their point, for them. BUT if your going to "talk the talk, walk the walk", which means if you offer to pay, be prepared to back it up. If a woman says she wants restaurant X, you better know what it costs and be prepared to pay that price, or suggest a different restaurant.

From my POV, her selection of this restaurant, would have been OK. I don't want to eat at olive garden, Red Lobster or applebees. I prefer something at least a couple of notches above that, but hey, that's me. So yeah with that guy, I guess it was ego, or embarassed he couldn't pay.

People should understand both sides, both POV's. Guys should leave their ego at home, or man up. Or they should always embrace the 'split the bill' routine. Ladies should understand a guy who pays, and not kill him with the most expensive thing on the menu. Or they should embrace the both pay concept.

The key is to communictae together for what works for both. Oh and check your ego at the door, BEFORE dating.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 325
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 7:14:43 PM

You've clinically observed the behavior of 20 families to the point that you're able to diagnose which parent has passed on certain behaviors to their offspring? I'm impressed.

Where did I make a diagnosis? I repeated several times that it's likely that it's the case - and mentioned that I am not making an absolute claim or generalizing. Your response is to keep telling me I am. Never did I say ALL men do ANYTHING. I did say that it's a common thing, and that it's worth considering (wow, I feel like I just explained all this twice).

And yes IME (making sure you see that) the majority of my female friends not only had fathers who drilled this into their heads, but have husbands or ex husbands that now do the same with their daughters. In cases where there are two parents, fathers tend to be the parent girls model their dates after.

You have implied that your observations are true in the majority of cases.

In the majority of cases I know of - which is about 20 families I'm close to, more than 20 aquaintances I know of and most people I have discussed this with yes that's the case. Perhaps where you live it's an overwhelming opposite, but I don't claim to know what people do where YOU live. *shrug*

Here's a thought: Women are responsible for their own behavior. They also have TWO parents that influence them in a lot of ways. Blaming their attitudes on the father is ridiculous.

Men tend to want to date women who either are just like their moms or the opposite and tend to want to be just like or nothing like their dads (not much gray area). Women tend to want to date men who either are like their dads or the opposite and want to be just like their moms or nothing like them. Once they grow up, sure they become individuals, but it's been said that underlying dating choices and behaviors are directly related to parents and other role models they have as kids.

So it's not all about the father, but it's enough of an influence to consider seriously.
 OregonBelladonna
Joined: 7/12/2009
Msg: 326
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/28/2010 7:33:18 PM
I would be happy to pay half of whatever I do with a man for a first meet/date. But if a man turns out to be cheap, it can hurt.

I was brand new to the dating scene, after a 22 year marriage, and the first guy I went out with had talked with me a lot on the phone for weeks. I knew he was financially better off than I, to say the least. He wanted us to have lunch together. I wasn't very hungry (due to the excitement), and planned to order something modest. He
agreed that he wasn't very hungry either. But instead of each of us ordering modestly, he said why don't we share. When the middle-aged waitress came, I secretly felt embarassed about how my first'meet/date ordered. The waitress didn't say a single word, yet she was experienced and definitely had an air about her that said 'Honey, you are with a cheapo here.' I know he didn't pick up on the vibe. When the waitress bought the plate of food, and the empty plate to share with, she set the food in front of me and the empty one in front of him!

Despite this, we had fun together and, basically, I was lonely. So we developed an intimate relationship. He was not rich, by any means, but I was just plain financially struggling. We tended to do things locally that didn't cost much to do, we spent more for fuel for the car, than on anything else. We'd buy groceries or a pizza for takeout, for dinner. And/or we'd go antiquing and do free local sightseeing.

One day we headed out to do some antiquing again. There was a shop where a set of antique golf clubs caught his eye. He offered the man $100. I was flabbergasted. I could not imagine spending $100 on an antique--for me $100 would put fuel in my car to get me to/from my little $9.50/hour job. For me, $100 was 3 weeks of groceries!

On the way home he said he was hungry, and he pulled into a place where we used plastic forks and ate off paper plates. I realized that he'd never so much as bought me a plate of lunch of my own, much less dinner anyplace decent, and only once had he ever bought me a little something in all our antique shopping and scenic drives, except a plastic serving tray he spent $1 on. But he would drop $100 for a set of antique golf clubs to stack with all the other antiques he'd collected all over his home.

I stopped seeing him. He would phone occasionally. As always, he talked about our relationship, and about badly wanting to see me again. I finally admitted to him that I am a bit old fashioned. That I felt hurt, like I was not worth it to him to spend any money on. I told him that I wanted, at least to some small degree, the respect that I see other women around me getting when they are dating men. That I wanted him to bring me flowers some time, all I wanted was a cheap bouquet from a grocery store. He said he was sure he had, because 'I'm like that' he said. I told him I'd sure remember if a man had brought me flowers. He was sorry. I told him he'd never picked up the phone and offered 'Put a dress on, I'm taking you to a nice dinner. Be there in an hour.' And so on. He was surprised. He said he sees himself as definitely a gentleman, and that he's taken women out to dinner, that's for sure.

He phoned me one more time after that. He wanted to know if I was still available. I was. He wanted to get together. But he still never said 'Hey, I'll take you out to a nice dinner. See you in an hour!'

I don't take his calls anymore.

If a nice guy wants to go out, I'll certainly pay half of the first meet/date. And I'll pay what I can afford after that, as well. I am a generous person. I like to cook a nice meal for someone, or dessert, or buy some little surprise for him--a book I know he'll enjoy, or what have you. You are right on target when you commented that what it's really about isn't the dollar amount, but about courtesy and respect!
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 328
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 5:15:32 AM

Men tend to want to date women who either are just like their moms or the opposite and tend to want to be just like or nothing like their dads (not much gray area). Women tend to want to date men who either are like their dads or the opposite and want to be just like their moms or nothing like them. Once they grow up, sure they become individuals, but it's been said that underlying dating choices and behaviors are directly related to parents and other role models they have as kids.


I think I've stumbled into a pop psychology lecture...
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 333
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 6:34:15 AM

Whatever, paderic is right because he was a brother Watching your own father and sisters is a hell of a lot different than watching from the vantage point I did.


I'm also an uncle. But I now realize that your experience as an aunt trumps anything anyone else could have observed in their lifetime. Sorry for thinking otherwise.


Paderic, I have spent almost ALL my adult life living with children - have you?

And the fact you don't know the shotgun saying proves my point.

But you're right because that's what your ego wants to hear anyway.


Classic ad hominem argument. Nice try, though.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 336
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 7:09:21 AM
Again, I ask you - have you lived with them? I lived with them when they were born to almost 3 years of age, then again from 5 to 8. Then with another brother from 3 to 12. I even watched my niece being born.

Again, answer that question and come back to me. Because yes my experience does trump yours if you have not. Who knew?

Being an uncle that sees them on holidays and visits is NOT the same as much as you want to think it is.


So witnessing a birth makes someone an expert on the social development of children?

What I'm disputing is the notion that fathers are the sole source of this expectation that men pay on a date. I contend that mothers are just as responsible. I realize this may fly in the face of the men = bad, women = good line of thinking.

A lot of children are being raised by single mothers these days, with no involvement from the father at all. Where do they get such expectations from?
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 339
view profile
History
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 8:47:13 AM

He or she who asks first should pay and should set up a date that works with their financial wherewithall. After that, it should either be a full split or a take turns thing unless one person is far better off financially than the other. If that is the case, then show common sense and respect and allow the person with the smaller income to keep their dignity by getting them to pay for coffee or other small ticket items and the higher earner pay for the more expensive dates if they want to continue dating and go places that are more costly.


Firstly, the whole "who asks should pay" thing has been debunked a number of times. Secondly, you're saying that 1. we should be talking about how much money everyone makes early in the relationship, and 2. that we should punish the richer party for being successful.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 341
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 9:32:24 AM
Notice you still did not answer my question though. I like how you avoid it rather than admit that I could know more about something.


The "question" was an attempt at pressing an ad hominem argument. The response given was completely appropriate.

I haven't said that children don't learn by observing their parents. I objected to the characterization that men are solely responsible for their daughters forming an expectation that men pay on a date. I have yet to see an intelligent argument to the contrary. Plenty of bluster, though.
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 347
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 10:38:54 AM
Without ever having experienced or observed any other parent/child interactions in depth, I'm surprised you feel confident enough to come on here and claim that the argument holds no water.

The fact that you began answering the posts, and then backed off when asked a direct question provides all the answer I and other posters really need.

Since you are so intelligent and think that we are bluster, why are you even debating with us? We must be beneath you.


You've assumed that I have experienced no other parent/child interaction in depth because it fits the male stereotype you have in your mind. That I've chosen not to respond to your ridiculous attempts to discredit what I've said is an admission of nothing.


And I'm still waiting to hear back from posters on whether their parents ever instructed them on payment etiquette on a date. Mine never did.


Then why did you concur with the earlier remark that said daddies are responsible for passing those expectations on to their daughters?
 SeductivePain
Joined: 3/21/2010
Msg: 350
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 12:20:32 PM
For the first time EVER! Lastnight a lady I went out with paid!! I was in shock to be honest (And grateful), because I always pay...

Although I always pay, but it would be nice if your just meeting someone for the first time if the bill was split... Or, pay for what your getting.... Hell, Idk.. lol
 Paderic
Joined: 2/23/2010
Msg: 351
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 3/29/2010 1:17:43 PM

If you say so. If a person can't answer a simple question, then they should understand that they leave themselves open to assumptions.

To put your mind at ease, you are fitting in just fine with the male stereotype I currently have in my mind.


They say stereotypes are devices for saving a biased person the trouble of learning.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 353
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/4/2010 6:58:52 PM

BTW i just read the above post and its true women are "expected" to spend butt-loads more money on appearances than men. a helllllllll of a lot more than men.


I find most women are already well into a high maintenance lifestyle, rather then primarily influenced by men to be that way. If she really feels she must try to live up to such high expectations of a man, is through fault of her own.


If you are the dressy well groomed type, the range of clothes, shoes, purses, jewelry etc can cost many times what a guy would ever spend. Add to that all the costs of hair, nails, waxing (ouch), cosmetics and on and on it's a wonder we pay at all.


A woman pays for these things, because she WANTS to own them. She is going to be using all these things for more then just dating.


 JRodriguez81
Joined: 2/24/2010
Msg: 354
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/4/2010 10:54:46 PM

Jeez, since joining the POF forums, I've become phobic about going out on dates with men. I never realized how pissed men were about paying for dates, until reading countless threads about "gold-digging" women, "dinner-date whores" and "women's liberation" = pay for your own way (and possibly mine) since you usurped my kingdom.

On my first date from the forums I arrived early and plonked down my credit card with the restaurant owner with instructions to put it on my tab. On my second date from here, I ordered an appetizer as a main course in order to deny the POF Gods that I used men.

Frankly, I think on POF forums, there is a loud minority of bitter and stingy men who ruin it for all the good guys who don't count their pennies and "keep score". In the future, I'm going for a man who exhibits a generous nature. When he shows me that, I will outdo him tenfold.




Also be sure to moan about it less. That is also a turn off for us men.
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 355
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 12:51:28 AM
^^^^as if men who moan about being used by women are not a turn off to women. I have met more than my share of men who moaned and griped about how their ex wives or ex girlfriends used and abused them and left them poor. They made it known that no woman was ever going to be treated well by them again, as we all had to bear the brunt of their bad choices in choosing partners. I was glad they showed their true colors on a first meet, as I have no desire to date men who allowed themselves to be used and abused repeatedly . When I questioned why they stayed in bad relationships, most of the time the answers were the same ..."if a woman is good looking men will take anything from her since she can always leave and find someone better, all that is left to date is average looking women with opinions, they should be glad to find any man to date.".......guess the good looking women who have opinions left men confused.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 357
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 8:14:19 AM
^^^ Agreed. Men who don't want to pay for meals should make it clear on their profiles and make sure it's discussed right away before meeting. And for the men who say they don't want to offend (so early, because they will eventually anyway) who cares if that scares women away? If it bothers you to pay, then the women who avoid you because of this will be women you're trying to avoid - which saves you time and money.

And yes, asking her to pay half at dinner is fair if that's what you believe should happen.

Problem solved.
 migivadamsbusted
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 358
When should the woman offer to pay?
Posted: 4/5/2010 8:18:34 AM
I don't agree, I would not be a happy camper if the guy told me or asked me right there at dinner. Thats rude. He better make it clear before hand one way or the other.
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