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 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 27
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Is Democracy the best form of government?Page 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)

transparency means you can see what is being done

I'm pretty good at slight of hand. There is nothing more hidden than that which is hidden in plain sight. When people think they are being informed, they tend to become complacent.


all moral decisions affect everyone

There are a great many things I find morally wrong for myself but clearly there are those that find them acceptable. What I would find most immoral is for one person to impose their values on another.


since criminals are most impacted by penalties for crime ... then they should be the ones to vote on those moral punishments.

In some countries, it is acceptable to stone to death women found behaving "morally" wrong such as expressing a desire to choose their own husband. It's backed by religious leaders etc. In effect, the women are "criminals".


the lazy layabouts ... well then they should be the only ones to vote on the moral rights to welfare and the homeless to vote on free accomodations.

One should not confuse welfare and homeless nor should those paying taxes be ignored. The statistics on welfare are pretty good proof that if you pay people to be poor, there are plenty of people to take the job. Add to that, a system that has the effect of paying state supported people to have babies, again, the result is predictable. What is "transparent" is the sight of some person pleading for help being held up as an example for a politician to ask for higher taxes to give them the support they "need" for all the babies they are trying to feed. Some would say the birth control they should have practiced is immoral. The homeless are typically those who are not the professional welfare recipients but people not served by the massive welfare bureaucracies.
 Some random name
Joined: 1/19/2009
Msg: 28
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:27:48 AM
Most of the people who have ever existed have lived under a state of fear from their leaders. Democracy isnt perfect, but be thankful for it.
 DaTreeGuy
Joined: 12/30/2007
Msg: 29
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:49:12 AM
No, Democracy has never worked. They go through a specific life cycle, known for thousands of years. Plato first alluded to it in "The Republic". It was further set in stone by Alexander Fraiser Tytler in the 1700s:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years.

These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage. "
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 30
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:52:42 AM
Maybe it's high time to chuck democracy and all the other failures we call "forms of government" out the window and create a new paradigm for peaceful coexistence and prosperity.

If we can implement a policy of free beer for everyone, it would go a long way in working toward such a goal.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 31
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 11:04:03 AM
I agree with DaTree and ol'Dukky.
The point is to be vigilant of the excesses of any single "form" of government no matter how inviting those excesses may be. Nothing turns a population against each other like collective blame. If one group receives more largess of government over another then there is resentment. It may appeal to us to help the indigent but such help should be encouraged by the individual, not compelled by some all powerful government, democratic or whatever. The systems of government create "professional" dependents on government largess. That can range from massive companies to individual welfare recipients. The larger the government, the smaller the individual.

Individuals should be ware of every source of information they have access to. The soviet union's Pravda (truth) got only slightly more information from government sources than our free press. Both well over 90%. The earlier concept of "transparency" can be used to justify some government power grab by convincing the public of a "need" that may not really exist. On the political side, as an example, an internet site was created to check political facts. Virtually all the press relied on it during the campaign yet none of the press followed the funding of the site. In doing so, one might think it was balanced by its own claims of members in its opposition party but its funding was the very same source that funded Obama's career and political launch and is tied to socialist political movements. The "transparency" one thinks they see may actually be manipulation and you can easily be its pawn if you don't keep your mind open and active.

Individual freedom is not free but the effort it requires is not limited to some battle field or a trip to the voting booth. It requires actual thinking.
 quiet11
Joined: 5/29/2008
Msg: 32
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 11:42:29 AM
The best form of government doesn't exist yet.
How can there be a best form of government when human potential has not been fully realized by the majority of people on earth?.
The evolution of consciousness is still in the early stages of development.
A impulsive, argumentative & violent child doesn't have the ability to create "the best form government".
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 33
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:57:22 PM

dont kid yourself if we have no oversite things would quickly go to hell in an hand basket.


Al the more reason that we should be doing our due diligence and overseeing things.
 jon6357
Joined: 6/10/2009
Msg: 34
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/8/2009 8:34:13 AM

The best form of government doesn't exist yet.
How can there be a best form of government when human potential has not been fully realized by the majority of people on earth?.
The evolution of consciousness is still in the early stages of development.
A impulsive, argumentative & violent child doesn't have the ability to create "the best form government".


You got THAT right.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 35
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/11/2009 1:01:17 PM

For a democracy to work, it's people must be grounded in religious morality, otherwise, it will inevitably devolve into mob rule.

A democracy was put in place in Gaza, but an amoral public decided to elect tyrants and terrorists into power.

Religious morality is key, because faith in God assures that nobody is above the universal spiritual principles that God put in place.

Please explain to me the following:
- Why the strongest democracies (the western developed countries) have lower proprotions of believers than do non-democratic countries (and it's been dropping steadilly for the last 100 years).
- Why the strongest democracies also have the most freedom to do very NON-religiously moral things (homosexuality, casual sexual relations, among other things) that would get you shot, hung, thrown in jail or tarred and feathered in many non-democratic states.
 jbogie
Joined: 9/30/2008
Msg: 36
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/12/2009 11:35:08 AM
democracy is not a form of government. it's an ideal or concept. "we the people" did not create a democracy did we? we created a representative republic. a democracy as a government has never existed. never will. can't.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 37
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/12/2009 1:10:10 PM
*sigh* ..... here we go again. I should know better by now.

democracy is not a form of government.

Describes how the government is selected, but now how it is organised.

it's an ideal or concept. "we the people" did not create a democracy did we?

Are your representatives selected by vote, by the citizens of your country? If the answer is yes, the you are a democracy.

we created a representative republic.

Yes, you did. But your representative republic is also a democracy. Representative Republic describes how your government is organized; Democracy describes how it is elected. Indeed, the very definition of Republic implies a democracy.

a democracy as a government has never existed. never will. can't.

Please explain to me why a democracy can't exist. As for never having existed, how do you describe Great Britain? Canada? Australia? India? Germany? France? A hundred other countries in the world today?
Democracies have existed somewhere in the world almost constantly since the ancient greek city-states. You live in one now (USA). I live in one (Canada).

Why is it that so many Americans keep insisting that they live in a republic and not a democracy, when you clearly live in both? Where does that idea come from?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 38
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/22/2009 9:52:07 AM
a semi ambitious individual, with a bit of luck, can do quit well in most flawed democracies, don't you think?

I have come to accept that human "creations" are flawed.

theocratic, now there's a can of worms.
 GGarbo
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 39
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 7/23/2009 6:18:14 PM
Democracy alone is not the best form of government. It has to involve other forms to provide the checks and balances required for success.

I think checks and balances are more important than the ideal because you will only get the ideal for a short period of time without that system holding the frame work together. Without the framework, corruption of any governmental system is bound to happen.
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/17/2014 7:58:01 PM

The best form of government would be an implied matriarchy. The way it works is, the women agree what should be done and the men do it without having to ask what it is.

Get in the kitchen and make me a sammich.

If things keep going like they are such that everyone has some kind of instant connection to an internet always on their person, and constant access to various news, current events, and all manner of goings-on, including all kinds of ongoing debating and philosophizing on this-and-that...we might go ahead and have some form of that "direct democracy", and replace the bulk of political positions with people who's job it is to just carry out and manage what the world decides by the minute. But, then we'd still have the problem of people really getting all of the information, and true accurate information, on lots of things to really make an educated decision.
 traveltrekker
Joined: 9/17/2013
Msg: 41
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/18/2014 5:11:10 PM
I am only:) asking for peoples views on what their ideal government would be.


A benevolent dictatorship.

The problem is, and has been, that few, if any, dictatorships have been "benevolent", but rather "malevolent".

Most people are followers as opposed to leaders. People will follow a strong leader, good or bad. The tough part is finding a good strong leader who will remain incorruptible.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 42
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/30/2014 9:58:33 AM
I'd like to see those qualified in their field, volunteer to be elected to represent their community interests in their zone. (from a fishermen with a grade 7 education who have been fishing the local waters to micro biologists with a degree). Each field representative would be elected locally by others that are qualified in that field.

Your "qualifications" in any field would determine how many sectors you could vote in.

The number of representatives that met for international conferences to deal with issues and share ideas and solutions, would be based on need, different parts of the sector, and zones, (not provinces or states or countries). There wouldn't be a cap on how many people are needed, the needs of the sector would determine how many people are needed. These representatives would then be paid according to the hours that they have to put in. This pay would be capped at the price it would cost to support their family's basic needs. (say 25 an hour min. going up 5 dollars an hour depending on how many dependents they have, capped at 4000. a month. They may want to work at other jobs, but they shouldn't have to.

These reps could represent as long as they are doing an effective job and are elected again. Long term diligence by the same person may be more efficient when major projects need dedicated people and it's a long haul to the goal.

Mothers can volunteer to be elected by other mothers, teachers by other teachers, engineers by other engineers, doctors by doctors, natural paths by natural paths, loggers by loggers, environmentalists by other environmentalists ....(all based on their field of expertise).

It would be like a union representative who not only looks after the interests of those in their field (fair pay) but they look after the field itself in the zone they represent. When all look after their field in their zone, the whole sector gets looked after.

Clashes can be worked out because these elected professionals want things running smoothly and properly.

A ship shape collective so it's smooth sailing in all waters.
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/30/2014 10:38:19 AM
^ I dunnnooo...that's another "nice idea", but it's not taking into account a lot of factors and dynamics of how such things would evolve and happen in real world application and practicality.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 44
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/30/2014 11:37:22 AM
, wekk.It's more than an idea, it happens all the time. It's how things get done...co operation.

The problem with the way things are now... trying to get the gov't/corporate appointed idiots, who know nothing about what they are in charge of, who are in it for the money and prestige , who are sucking up to their corporate bosses, and who won't/aren't allowed t look at what makes sense and what works, these idiots keep interfering with healthy progress.

We the people have to take over our responsibilities as world citizen's and make sure that the only ones who have a say, are the ones thinking (and knowing) about what's best for everyone and for the long term.

It's more than a nice idea, it's practical, healthy, efficient, progressive and fair. We can't take "into account" (BTW I can't stand that term) until we DO.

Care to explain why it wouldn't work in real world application and practicality?

I noticed that those who poo poo good ideas don't usually offer solutions of their own. They also passive aggressively or aggressively mock the ideas or person who brings them to the table. I wonder why?

Are they happy with the way things are? Are they fearful of change? Lazy? Embarrassed that they may have nothing to offer? spoiled? stuck? con vinced?

EVERYONE has something to offer, go do it and don't let anyone try to tell you, you can't. When we all do this, we'll meet soon enough.

How about just pick a couple of things you are good at and share them with others for now?
You'll see how the ball gets rolling.

"Taking into account" is one of my worst terms btw.
Those that USE it show me what is really driving them. $'s and the easy life. Careful of these guys/gals.

Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/30/2014 6:06:26 PM

Is Democracy the best form of government?

I think that Democracy might be the best form of goverment...but the trick is how to apply democracy, what form it takes, and what the details of how it operates are.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 46
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/30/2014 6:29:43 PM

Fresco speaks more sense than all the politicians I have ever hear put together.


What do you think about about Peter Joseph?
 billingsmason
Joined: 2/3/2012
Msg: 47
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/30/2014 9:24:40 PM
"Taking into account".... I hear, better be aware.
but then again, I can be my own worst enemy sometimes dame. I do well to look after the guy typing this,'for that fvcker gets me in trouble.

I Like the sense of coop... except who does the pay ceiling figures? I dont like someone telling me that is as good as im gonna get. Who gets to decide that for me? For you?
Apketa is a great way to be, but only if its a choice.
Start telling themasses only two loaves a week, because its enough.... you will build a glutinous rebellion.

Personally, this is my style scoot
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxgz7p6a_BE
but is this kind wrong?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PiIcGEwmWOk
what about this one?
http://m.youtube.com/user/colinfurze

Who decides what is enough? The individual, not the coop, or the communist leader or the other scooter tramps either.
Or in your analogy... who would the mercenaries pick to represent them? And who would decide what exactly is enough for them?

The rust and the dust is enough for me, but I enjoy the simplest of things. Cooperation doesnt and shouldnt kill ambition.

Skootchie.... for 125 bucks and a semi regular round of beers with a few buddies, you could start a corporation. That is the beauty of our system. Many big corporations started in the back yard, in the garage.... the "corporation" protects you and allows an idea to flourish without the personal liability a simple person couldnt keep a hold of anyways. It minimizes risks that any sane person wouldnt take, with fear of being strung up or stripped down to the cardboard box in the alley. Abuse is what makes this a bad thing.
Take the guy who invented the child seat belt. Paul is a regular guy. Kinda nutty. He had an idea fora little piece of metal that shrunk the belt to fit kids. Like an "H" shape... now think of the liability in that. What if it didnt work or some one decided to sue.... never mind the fact there was nothing for kids before that, he would be to "blame". No body would shoulder that kind of responsibility. Kids would still be bouncing around in the back seat getting tossed through non safety glass windshields from 20 mile an hour collisions. He had to protect himself.

The "best" type of government? Its not the lessor of two evils, its the evil of two lessors.....
I say- lets use some third world solutions to fix some of these first world problems, and reduce the amount of escapism we rely on to get by... to help other folks get by too. Pay the rent or buy the new ps4? Laugh at some kid who decides wrong, but in this day and age why are there so many easily solved problems still out there? Why? Arent these the things that need governing?

Like... a gallon of bleach ( 1 $ ) has 90840 drops in it. A drop treats a gallon of water. Thats a gallon of treated water a day for 248 years. Why the hell are there kids in the world drinking dirty water? We spend more on one election than could fix the WORLD'S clean water problem.

Go to mexico and get the green apple quick trots, then tell me its not a serious problem.
let our governments fix a few of these"no brainer" problems.... then I will start taking them seriously.


what is this kind of government called? Our's.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 48
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 1/31/2014 10:52:19 AM
Billingsmason:

I'm only suggesting capping the income someone can make in their post as the representative of their sector. If they want to make more doing something else as well, fair enough, they can. It's their choice.

I may put in 10 hrs a month dealing with coastal cleanup and sample taking, I'd get paid 250. from that job (if elected) and I can earn whatever else I want by having a business or working somewhere else.
If David Suziki ends up using all his hours and decides he wants to write a book and make money off that, fair enough.
But the representative part should be capped so those that are doing those jobs, are in it for good reasons not just for the bucks. Hours in=hours paid.

As a collective, if something happens and we have to pay out, fine, we can all shoulder that responsibity. We should help those who are hurt because of our decisions. At least the pay outs would be because of a decision that we all had a say in and was truly a result from an accident and not a result of breaking the rules. Not only that, but if the person suing knew that the money came from everyone instead of some evil corporation, the pay out demanded wouldn't be a ridiculous amount.

Exactly, why are kids drinking dirty water? what the fck is the matter with us?

and why as it is now, can a company who already has a record for spilling contaminates be given the right to move (3 times) and carry on business until it suits them to go bankrupt, leaving the taxpayers holding the bag and ending up sick? Those guys pretty much gave the finger to regulations and to the people. They belong in jail and their assets should go in the collective.
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 2/1/2014 11:35:43 AM
It’s always interesting to just look at the etymology and definitions of politic, and then wonder how a certain objectivity, and integrity of intentions, can be worked into it’s practice in the real world:

- the practice and theory of influencing other people on a civic or individual level; achieving and exercising positions of governance

- showing good judgment especially in dealing with other people; characterized by shrewdness in managing, contriving, or dealing

- possessing or displaying shrewdness, tact, or cunning

- crafty or unscrupulous; cunning


By the way though, can anybody explain what is meant by this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics ?:

“Fictions: Records and Law Courts were valuable in helping the people adapt to law-making but like Fictions, they were slow and imperfect. Though slowly, Fictions work because it is a well known fact that people will accept a change in the form of a fiction while they would resist it to the end if the fact is out in the open.”
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 50
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Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 2/1/2014 12:21:18 PM
Depending on the personality/background/experiences of the person who you want to convince, different tactics will be employed for different people.

If there is a group, many tactics.

Some like it told to them, "in the now and bluntly"

Some like "legends" that they can relate to without it becoming personal.

Some like actions, not words.

Some will listen or join only if this or that happens first.

Some need to follow

Some need to feel it's their idea.

Some need to know history or a pattern. (past cases).

Some don't trust history.

Most need to trust the messenger.

Some never make up their mind.

some, some, some.

So many ways.

It seems to be that you have to understand how the person "hears" before you can convince and so many "hear" differently.

Maybe throwing it all out there (even if some clash with others) is the best way to convince the majority.
 gedanken
Joined: 9/2/2009
Msg: 51
Is Democracy the best form of government?
Posted: 2/1/2014 3:57:50 PM

By the way though, can anybody explain what is meant by this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics ?

A legal fiction is an assumption made in law, often in the absence of fact, to resolve a matter.
Examples:
1. Missing person. Eventually this person would have to be declared dead by a judge to resolve the person's estate, even though such matters as date, time and location would have to be assumed. Such a declaration is a legal fiction.
2. Adoption. When a new birth certificate is issued reflecting the gaining parents in an adoption, this is a legal fiction, as they are obviously not the actual birth parents.
3. Simultaneous death. Separate jurisdictions resolve this situation in different ways. Let's say we have two people, A and B, who are linked to each other via a legal will or testament. If they are in an accident together and person A is declared dead on scene whereas person B is critically injured, but later succumbs to those injuries, then the estate through the will, will be passed from person A to person B, and then person B's estate will be distributed. However, what happens in the situation where the deaths occurred essentially at the same time, as in a place crash. In Canada, following the Commonwealth tradition, the oldest is assumed to have died first, so that their estate is resolved first, and then the younger's estate is distributed, taking into account the inheritance they received from the older one. This procedure, due to the assumption in death order, is a legal fiction.
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