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 james3paris
Joined: 6/18/2009
Msg: 155
Justifying Cheating?Page 5 of 24    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24)
I can understand. I wouldn't date a woman who has a cheating history. Of course, you never know. I have zero tolerance for it, because I do not do it. It happened to me once and I left. Personally, as I wrote in another post, surverys show that 6 in 10 people cheat on their significant other. It is either the sign of the times or it is just normal human nature--the "grass is greener" thing.

**This post is not directed at anyone. It is just my opinion. Some people from another post took my comments personally. My posting are not against anyone, but they only come from my personal experiences and knowledge. **
 deerdog1
Joined: 12/29/2006
Msg: 157
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 11:04:29 AM
I made it a point of saying that I respect everyone's beliefs, as did you. I meant no disrespect in using that example. I happen to come from a family where being judgmental and religeous go hand in hand. Unfortunately, that has colored my experiences. It might, indeed, have been better if I had found another example.


Genny friend ... no disrespect was taken... I came from a family where being Christian and caring for but not judging others go hand in hand ...honestly we were very liberal and believed ones faith and beliefs were a personal mater ... before coming to the forums I never knew of people pushing their religion or lack of on others ..my parrents took me to church until I was 13 and was old enough to be left alone then they gave me the choice of whether i wanted to go ..in my opinion both are just wrong ..i was brought up to never tell a person how they should live ( unless they were hurting others ) if a person sees how I live and ask about my beliefs then by all means share them with him /her ...I list myself as non religious ..because in a dating forum my beliefs dont mater ..and after all Im just looking for conversation and friends ..so religion is not important

but I will say since coming here ...the non religious are just as pushy and intolerant as the religious both sides condemning the other

and how its this on topic ..well if i had been raised in your moccasins.. i may well have been an atheist also ... if I had been in your shoes i might cheat too..i will say that it would be better if you did not feel you had to cheat ..but i will not judge you..you have not wronged me ...I have been cheated on and felt wronged ..but all is forgiven I refuse to learn how to hate ...and I admit that my immaturity played a part in why my ex cheated
disclaimer;; when I say my ex cheated i am refering to my first marriage ...to my knowledge my current wife has not cheated ...we were divorced a few years back and both of us had other sex partners .. but we have both been faithful while married and after we got back together
 gracengracie
Joined: 2/3/2009
Msg: 158
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 12:34:25 PM
^^^ Deerdog,
I love the stories of divorce and remarrying, or getting back together....It like love wins in the end. Good for both of you.

I am very glad to see the even though people want to sound narrow minded intolerant, that's not the reality of everyone.
=========

Life has big joys and big hurts and sometimes we need to accept that people do the best they can.

Example.
What does a spouse (40's 50's) do if they have a cancer ill partner that can barely walk and eat for few years??? Stay celibate??? Divorce her???? Take good care of her/him and if need arises discreetly arrange a friend?
 Vincent_1984
Joined: 11/14/2005
Msg: 159
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 2:05:01 PM
I don't really think cheating really can be morally justified, it's a betrayal of trust and respect that can only come from a relation which has already failed. Generally speaking, cheating is usually due to a failure of communication and a lack of empathy. If one side has a higher libido than the other, both parties need to discuss it and come to an acceptable solution. Some can be greedy and some can be callous but these differences still need to be resolved. If one side is unwilling to partake in such negotiations and willing to cheat as a form of compromise, they shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place.

I also want to add, though, that I feel very little pity for those who get cheated on as a direct result of their attempts to extort their partner using sex. Someone who is deliberately withholding affection from their partner in exchange for favors, money and power should not be in a relationship either.

I guess whether or not they should be in a relationship is irrelevant though; the reality of it is that they are. For those to whom separation is not a plausible option, cheating seems to become the lesser of evils.
 C2H5OH
Joined: 4/13/2009
Msg: 160
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 4:38:07 PM
To me,a cheater is no better than a child molester.You gain their trust,intentionally hurt them for your own selfish needs,and screw them up for the rest of their lives.

I like how they handle cheaters in the Islamic world....several hundred rocks to the head.
 C2H5OH
Joined: 4/13/2009
Msg: 162
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 5:20:40 PM

That would be too nice :)
 nicklewiser
Joined: 7/27/2008
Msg: 163
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 5:57:31 PM
I guess I can't justify cheating, it is the ultimate betrayal by someone who supposed to care about you. Hard to trust someone after that, it keeps me up at night sometimes... Once the trust has been broken there is always a part of me that holds back, the affectionate lovey dovey, I wanna just stare into your eyes part.

Regardless if you love the person or not I don't think it can be the same, unless you are with one of the few people in the world who can be utterly & completely vulnerable..... (but I have met one yet, myself included)
 privat33r
Joined: 2/8/2009
Msg: 164
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 9:25:52 PM

To me,a cheater is no better than a child molester.You gain their trust,intentionally hurt them for your own selfish needs,and screw them up for the rest of their lives.


Maybe you should contact my ex, she's mixed feeling about hanging with a sick lazy guy twice her age, particularly after my kids and their friends whined bunches while she drove them around town on her gas card.

There is cheating and it does hurt. Truly and deeply, its a wound that some don't recover from, ever, 30 years down the road you can see it in everything they say. But what exactly is that?

From distant recollection its a break in a contract to find out about one another and develop together. If you're looking to understand another person then another shows up with some crazy tantalization to drag that person away,.. its cheating. I've seen it -- it hurts. One sent a note today that rings a distant recollection of that time. She's pissed, back in university a female bud of mine moved in on her guy, impressed him with a do anything wildness, had a kid, etc. She (the mover-in girl) didn't let me keep any of the pics- they're 33 years old anyhow.

Other posts detailed what doesn't seem to be cheating. I don't want to rehash what's said. If you don't care about the person, and you've zero - 35 intention of being involved with them intimately ever, and proved that for more than a decade, they're not cheating on you.

Prvt33r
 Vincent_1984
Joined: 11/14/2005
Msg: 165
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/8/2009 9:43:03 PM

several hundred rocks to the head.

Whether this is a joke or not; I want to add that, as bad as cheating is, retribution over it should never be condoned or encouraged. However much you love a person, you do not own that person. Everyone is free to have sex with whomever they choose; it's their life and you have no right to stop them. You can choose not to associate ever again with this person, but under no circumstances should cheating be considered a viable excuse for illegal/violent actions. I know, it hurts and it sucks, but deal with it sensibly.



Yikes! String 'em up by the nutz!!!

Why are you advocating the stereotype that child abusers are all men when there is nearly as many female child abusers out there? You may have meant it as a joke but I really don't think you understand how harmful of a label this is towards men.
 TimelessRomance
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 167
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/9/2009 4:54:44 AM
I wanted to comment on the cheating on your disabled husband or wife... but I think Kenny Rogers explained how I would feel if I were in that situation...

Ruby by Kenny Rogers

You've painted up your lips an rolled and curled your tinted hair.
Ruby are you contemplating going out somewhere?
The Shadow on the wall tells me the sun is going down -
Oh Ruby
Don't take your love to town

It wasn't me that started that old crazy asian war
But I was proud to go and do my patriotic chore
And yes, it's true that I'm not the man I used to be...
Oh Ruby I still need some company.

Its hard to love a man whose legs are bent and paralyzed
And the wants and needs the needs of a woman your age, Ruby I realize,
But it won't be long i've heard them say until i'm not around
Oh Ruby
Don't take your love to town

She's leavin' now 'cause I heard the slammin' of the door
The way I know I've heard it slam one hundred times before
And if I could move I'd get my gun and put her in the ground
Oh Ruby
Don't take your love to town
Oh Ruby
God sakes turn around


(ok, maybe without the murder)

The disabled person should have the right to decide if they wish to allow you to pursue others physically, or to get a divorce and remove you from their life.
 Vincent_1984
Joined: 11/14/2005
Msg: 168
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/9/2009 5:52:48 AM


Look again what she herself mentions as to what will “crush him” The alimony he has to pay to her, the house and all the materialistic things he worked so hard for. Not one mention of the wellbeing of his children after the divorce.


"If a cheating spouse is a man, it's another woeful tale of men's selfishness and irresponsibility. If the cheating spouse is a woman, it's The bridges of Madison County, a best-selling 'romance', hugely popular among women. "

"If a woman ends a marriage, she is putting an end to a stifling and oppressive relationship. If a man ends a marriage, he is abandoning his family. "

I may not particularly agree with the above quotes but I can't help being reminded of them as I read your comment.

 gracengracie
Joined: 2/3/2009
Msg: 170
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/9/2009 7:31:19 AM
TimelessRomance
Post 242

I love you post. I agree with you example. Here, the man is disabled because he went on a heroic mission...to war. This is a decision taken, to go to war, they kind of know what thye can encounter. I am sure they talk about all that with spouses, before deploying. I would kind of touch the subject. Lifestyle changes could be major.

A disabled person due to illness, is uncontrollable by either one of the couple. This just happens. I don't think you can ask a person on their deathbed if you give them permission to look for intimacy elsewhere. Those people are to be bothered the least, they need love and compassion. If the healthy spouse sneaks once in a while to get some apeacement for their needs....I'm sure they will do it discreetly. So this one case I can understand.

On a disabled but not ill person, things are different. Intimacy could be there, its a matter of imagination and resourcefulness, plus they are not dying....maybe in pain yes.
Of course as they get older, their organs might be compromised and get deteriorated....eventually.
 TimelessRomance
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 172
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/9/2009 5:26:25 PM
Rosiaq-

A disabled person due to illness, is uncontrollable by either one of the couple. This just happens. I don't think you can ask a person on their deathbed if you give them permission to look for intimacy elsewhere. Those people are to be bothered the least, they need love and compassion. If the healthy spouse sneaks once in a while to get some apeacement for their needs....I'm sure they will do it discreetly. So this one case I can understand.

I still don't think it's any better. If I was on my deathbed or seriously ill, I would rather die than have someone who supposedly loves me kiss me after having relations with another man. "In sickness and in health" does not have the caveat unless I decide to put my physical desires ahead of the promise I am making right here. Furthermore... if I am that ill I will probably be passing soon and most likely leaving everything to the one I love. That's the second kick in the pants. That I would leave all my worldly belongings to someone that can't even keep it in their pants until I die... or love and trust me enough to be honest with me.

Every person has the right to decide for themselves whether or not they want to allow their partner to take another the lover in the event that they cannot perform sexually any longer. And not to have that decision made FOR them. Lying is wrong.....there is no way to make it right.

As far as a persistent vegetative state , like I said in another thread somewhere.... you can get a divorce and give power of attorney to someone else if your need to fornicate supercedes your love and respect for your spouse. But I suppose MAYBE in the event like Terry Schiavo where the brain is only functioning enough to breathe and provide a heartbeat.... the argument could be made that the person no longer truly exists.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 174
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/10/2009 1:38:37 PM
munkeemaan, you bring up a consideration that I hadn't thought of much before. That is, you can't recreate the family life, the daily participation in your children's lives, and the stability that provides them if you break up the relationship. If your spouse denies intimacy, why should you suffer the loss of your family when all you really want is that intimacy which can be found elsewhere? You may even still love your wife despite her lack of interest. This comes about as close to being a justifiable reason as anything.

My main concern is, can you obtain the intimacy with someone else without resorting to lying to them or misleading them as to your intentions or their expectations? And the only other question I have is, would it be possible to get your wife's okay to seek initimacy elsewhere, while preserving the family?
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 175
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/10/2009 2:46:57 PM
Re munkeemaan...and your question about what you're doing and is it cheating. I've written throughout this thread that if one withholds intimacy in the relationship---you have rewritten the terms of the marriage contract making it untenable for the other. When terms change in that respect and one is denied there should be a discreet arrangement between the spouses that allow for the one denied to find respite elsewhere. I personally feel that it is best to be upfront about this with the spouse, especially if deciding to continue to be in the marriage whether that be for the benefit of children, marital assets, or to keep up a facade.
 readyornot57
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 176
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/10/2009 3:41:14 PM
1) wife denies husband sex for whatever reason, tells husband she will never again touch him
2)husband promises never to "bother" her for sex or affection anymore
3)they decide to stay together for maximum exposure to kids plus financial reasons
4)husband finds lover.....both wife and lover know about each other

This was pretty customary in Europe for centuries.
I think it is a lousy arrangement for all concerned, but I can't see it as cheating.
Everybody has what they want.
But I could not do it.
 estes501
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 180
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/12/2009 12:59:03 PM
All that means is that they married the wrong person .
 privat33r
Joined: 2/8/2009
Msg: 181
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/12/2009 9:29:20 PM
Past some of our moralizing there seems some consistency in comments. Pardon me for trying to provide an extended Reader's Digest version:

Not everyone was meant to pair bond. They're alarming to the rest of us but likely that's just genes. The race wasn't built from blocks that all look and act alike, some people are completely supportive family members through some sort of convoluted uncles taking care of daughter of guy who dated sister for a week but they're all getting on fine. Its not for the rest of us.

Amongst the norms pairs fall out of the mold. Some anthroapologosists suggest relationships are meant to last 3-4 years then change.We have to work at it from then on. Even for those that have made a commitment to be intimate and persue a future with one person wrenches can show up in the muck. People get hurt, lose interest for medical reasons. They move on mentally and can't be brought back through love or money. Still to differ with others it seems necessary to be true to your main squeeze and let them know if you're considering wandering. Even if they've suggested in detail how they'll spend your life insurance once they get the gumption to off you in a completely deniable accident -- that might all be talk, or they could crawl out of the wheelchair, or start taking those hormone replacement drugs,-- maybe just naturally regain interest. Saying what's up in some form frees them to persue their life.

This all based on sort of a crime-less village analogie though. In real life there are agendas and millions of dollars at stake in minor assignations. The govenment is completely into taking everything they can to supplimant income of an ex for ,.. well forever. And people can make wild changes - drag urchins off continent or destroy all the family assets. When the agenda has you in a one bedroom suite in the worst area of town it might be wise to consider discretion over valour.

However the complete chicken route - to deny affection.. well that's wrong too. If you truely like someone, and you're not in a real relationship its a travesty not to demonstrate commitment. Its unfair to everyone, and leads to tragedy. The new squeeze deserves to know where they stand. Denying is like reserving a seat on a plane for your invisible Gorilla friend, "no they'll be right back - just shaving in the washroom"
 CriticalAcclaim
Joined: 3/7/2009
Msg: 182
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/13/2009 1:45:09 AM
OK. I think there is NO justification for cheating. If you aren't happy get out of the relationship.
 Argentum Crinis Philogus
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 183
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/18/2009 11:19:44 AM

They always, always, always get caught



No, they don't always get caught. Some get caught, some never are caught and there is history that documents these secret affairs of some who are now deceased and the information was revealed. There are also so those who do not care whether or not they are caught.

Best,

ACP
 Argentum Crinis Philogus
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 184
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/18/2009 11:34:40 AM
People cheat because they have an inability to face their fears.


Wow! Just Wow! This assertion is supported by what evidence?


The percentage of people that actually were strong enough to use therapy to it's conclusion is minuscule.


Another assertion provided with no evidence to support it.


People cheat because they are weak.


Again, wow! This assertion is supported by what evidence?


what people hear is "I tried." Then ask what that means. "Oh, therapy didn't work." is a common reply.


They also could be clear and honest when that statement is made. Therapy isn't a guaranteed cure. Sometimes things are not fixable. Sometimes, people should not have been together from the beginning and yet outside pressures influenced their choice to marry or remain married when they knew they should have run.


People have to stay in therapy to face their fears, show there deepest level of vulnerability, really work together - that's hard stuff. People fail therapy, not the other way around.


I'm curious, was there a core component of 60 or more hours of psychotherapy training and education required at the culinary school as a part of your training to be a baker?

This is truly amazing insight from a baker. I cannot wait for the book to come out, what will it be called, " A Baker's Dozen Ways to Prevent Infidelity and Save Your Marriage" (instantly copyrighted by ACP AKA licensed relationship professional). Oops, can't use that title, but I might. LOL.


It's best to refrain from making sweeping assertions and generalizations about why human beings behave and stick to making the donuts.

Regards,

ACP
 Argentum Crinis Philogus
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 185
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/18/2009 11:49:52 AM
There is no justification! only a lack of communication, compromise and honesty! I see absolutly NO reason to cheat if you love someone.


That blade cuts all ways. Is it cheating when any agreement of the the marital contract is violated be it verbally (vows) or written such as the traditional Jewish wedding contract/covenant (kettubah)?


If not, why not?

In any other contractual agreement, if one item of the contract is altered or broken without mutual consent, the entire contract becomes void.

Cheating, a better term would be contract breaking, or in ye olde English form of what we have **stardized into adultery, "Advowtry" = Vow Breaking, is the violation of any component of the mutually agreed upon marriage contract.

Thus, when that occurs, it really isn't cheating anymore since the contract has been voided by the breaking of any one of the mutually agreed upon elements contained within that contract.

Personally, I encourage folks in pre-marital counseling as well as those for whom I serve as a celebrant official to have their marital contract written and that they use them as their official public vows. This way their expectations are clear and it is an agreement that removes any assumptions by either person. At the conclusion there are four copies. One for each of them, one that they file with the county recorder, and one that I keep. Human nature being what it is, sometimes the contract "gets lost".

If there needs to be a change or a renegotiation of that contract, there is language contained within the vow that specifies how it is to occur, how it gets added, and the process by which it is recorded so that there is no confusion and clearly indicates that both individuals were involved in and have agreed to the changes.

It's tough to refute that the contract wasn't broken when things go to court and someone is accused of "cheating" and yet many times, the contractual agreement reveals that there was no longer a contract as the other person had already violated one or more of the agreed upon components.

I like it, my client's like it, and so far judges and lawyers have liked it.

Best,

ACP
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 186
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/18/2009 12:22:04 PM

In any other contractual agreement, if one item of the contract is altered or broken without mutual consent, the entire contract becomes void.

Cheating, a better term would be contract breaking, or in ye olde English form of what we have **stardized into adultery, "Advowtry" = Vow Breaking, is the violation of any component of the mutually agreed upon marriage contract.

Thus, when that occurs, it really isn't cheating anymore since the contract has been voided by the breaking of any one of the mutually agreed upon elements contained within that contract.

.....It's tough to refute that the contract wasn't broken when things go to court and someone is accused of "cheating" and yet many times, the contractual agreement reveals that there was no longer a contract as the other person had already violated one or more of the agreed upon components.

^^^ACP...I agree as this tends to mirror my own thinking on this subject and posts to the same throughout this thread.
 clasact
Joined: 1/18/2008
Msg: 187
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/18/2009 3:02:24 PM
I haven't read all the replies here so I'll respond to the original post.

People justify many things they do in order to convince themselves that
what they do or want to do is acceptable in their mind and when others "call" them
on it they attempt to justify it to them also.

Cheating on someone is never justifiable in my mind.
And their excuses are only a way to make themselves feel better about what they've
done or are doing. It took a while for his marriage to lose it's intimacy and instead of
going down the street of Cheat, he could have tried to figure out, with help where it
got off track. And if he didn't want to fix what was broken then leave ....that's the hard
thing, isn't it? It's easier for him to cheat. *sighs*

The words, "keep thee only unto him/her" come to mind.
And if you can't do that then ....get out. Just my opinion.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 188
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/19/2009 5:43:22 AM

In any other contractual agreement, if one item of the contract is altered or broken without mutual consent, the entire contract becomes void.

So why hang around long enough to cheat?

^^^I agree. But this question needs to be asked to the person who violated the terms of the contract....the person who is withholding intimacy and sex <<<<
The cheating is a way of the other person who has been shut out to deal with the violation of the terms of the marriage....(no intimacy/sex) and looking for it elsewhere.

It's a legitimate question not only for the cheater...but also for the other person in the marriage who changed the terms by withholding.

As I've indicated on my posts throughout. I've never cheated...but I've been cheated on...and feel that I was just as culpable as my partner who cheated.
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