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 AUTHOR
 lemming3k13
Joined: 8/21/2009
Msg: 296
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Justifying Cheating?Page 6 of 24    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24)
The fact is if you are not happy you should leave, if you don't then accept the bed you made for yourself and make an effort to try to fix your problems.
People just want the best of both worlds and despite the obviousness of being unable to justify such actions they just convince themselves they can as it helps them sleep at night. Sadly there are too many morally corrupt people in the world.
 dave1234
Joined: 11/7/2004
Msg: 297
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:26:37 PM

(Msg 406) Interesting dave1234...you say you are "happily married, faithful" ??????? Then, why are you on a singles site!!!!????


For the social interaction. Friendship. And, periodically, I like to think someone benefits from my input.

People have queried why I don't join a "friendship" site. There are a couple of reasons.

I checked out so-called "friendship" sites such as IMVU, Second Life, etc. While my age is plainly visible there is an overabundance of 20-something females offering simulated sex (avatars which can be manipulated) in return for credits with which they purchase items (homes, furniture, clothes) on the respective sites.

The second reason is other members continually try to contact me via chat requests to sell those credits I mentioned.

In short, a sleazy, money-grabbing set-up.

My profile on here clearly states my age and that I'm married. I doubt any female is interested in a married man my age so I don't see any problem. Do you envision my being seduced by someone?
 1GenerousMan
Joined: 1/20/2008
Msg: 299
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/14/2009 9:12:13 PM
Only the ugly don't cheat. Beautiful people and those who think they are beautiful never miss a opportunity to cheat if they think they can get away with it.
 MNFriend4U
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 301
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/15/2009 7:56:41 PM
Hi,
Two things -
First
I would like to do, like GBockers did - compliment sweetest on her literate so-real post #376.
Secondly
I guess I am an example case subject for this discussion - would love to have others thoughts on suggested actions... ideas, or ...

So here it goes - my story:
Background:
I married at 42, found my wife on an online dating site - both of us I guess feeling desperate to find someone (yeah, an observation based on current conditions)... and the fact I was getting tired of being dumped and being alone.
I'm American, typical of Norwegian descent, quiet, shy till I know someone - not the kind to jump in front of crowds or approach people - shy in public... thus why I went to online dating. My wife was a divorcee from China. Came over here with her husband and shortly later divorced. I had been laid off many months before we met. We dated and seemed to like spending time with each other - the usual romance, safe sex, etc... and she moved in after 6 months. Shortly later I proposed (though we both knew this was gonna happen or she wouldn't have moved in)... just wanted to spend time together before making the engagement official. We married, went to visit her parents in China like 6 months later, came back home and she went off birth control without telling me. I discovered her pills with the last month still there the day we got back. We had been abstinent in China (my choice - I didn't want to conceive over there... and besides, didn't feel well most of the time)... so we were both horny when we got home (at least I was). Despite knowing she had been off for like a half hour, guess it didn't hit me - we had sex - and she got pregnant. I loved her with all my heart. Though she never initiated sex - I assumed it was just cause of her ethnicity/culture and that eventually we would get better together. You have to remember - I'm a quiet guy, reserved, nervous... shy. We had a son.
Current situation married 6 years, son is 4 1/2:
Before our child - she didn't initiate - but she did eagerly act to make me happy - she did participate. Since our child was born - she has had zero interest in sex. I joined iVillage.com - a woman's site, to read up on what a woman wants a guy to do to please her - learned a lot, tried hard to suggest, teach, try, anything to get her to initiate including telling her 'I really need to feel part of this marriage, you need to let me know you want me and initiate 'anything' - including holding hands, anything... She has no interest. Once the next day, she took my hand while we walked with our son - never since that day. I asked her to read the site - printed suggested reading that if I was a woman thought sure she would enjoy - she read a paragraph and threw it down. Even material with 'how to deal with a low labido'... no luck. When we have sex - I always have to initiate or imply (i.e. laying nude with an erection or touching her sensually). Beginning like 9 months ago she was so bold as to say things like 'ok, make it quick', or 'hurry, I have to go'... mood breakers for sure.
She hates oral... won't do anything but get on top or missionary, and again - just lays or wiggles enough to get me off - then crawls off and into the bathroom. I can request a bj - she told me she hates it, probably the only thing she will do if I almost beg, like once every 6 months... - and always runs and spits in the bathroom.

After 4+ years of this - I had enough, and on one of her: 'days off I didn't tell him about cause I want to work on my personal project', I asked her to sit down and told her how I felt. That I try so hard to get you to participate, offer suggested reading so you can learn (as once a year after marriage she implied it was she didn't know), I read books, web-sites - try as hard as I can to encourage us to become closer. Now - Important - I sat down with her TWICE, a month apart, basically repeating everything - and both times got the same response: "We are opposites. I do love you but I am not in love with you. I cannot give you what you desire - I just do not feel or desire what you want. If that is what you seek - go find someone else." I challenged her both times saying "I love you very much - I want us to be together, I do not want someone else" and she would repeat her sentence again. (so I guess I have heard it 4 times on two occasions)...

What have I done since then:
I have posted on CL looking for a Friend. In my post I have always (with maybe a few months exception when I changed my status for a week to Separated, as technically we are emotionally separated with me sleeping on a different level in the house! I can sleep with her, but she says I snore) - the rest of the time (probably 2 years +) including now: It states Married. I have tried posting every way I can - I have tried telling about our different cultures; another time for a month telling 'she told me we have an open marriage, and despite this fact - at this time all I am seeking is friendship. And, if I were to ever want more - I would divorce first.' My profile has gone from writing too much, to writing as today: All I seek is a friend - nothing more. I will not mention my marriage status, so no drama unless you ask. I am always honest. Beginning like 6 months ago, I have even posted my results in an attempt to show how impossible it is to meet anyone here - if I am honest and just want a friend.
I am firm in this stance - yeah, sure - sex is great. If I met someone, we became friends - I would like to get divorced before we had sex - I am 49 - I am in NO hurry to jump in the sack. A moments thrill is not worth loosing a friend.
This site states the possibility of seeking friendship - so I figured Great - it would be a start.
Additional facts why I am in no hurry - as debated here, not entirely money/assets as some posts mention - but there is a reason behind these feelings: I was laid-off again in January. I am trying to find a job, but the market is poor right now. I do not care for property/house (yes, in both our names) or anything - what I want to avoid is being forced to get a low paying job just to try and meet alimony and child-support I will surely be required to pay (yeah, as I expect - and I would want too, at least the child-support, though technically she supported me from 1/2 year before to 1/2 year after we were married including the time she got pregnant). But - if I have to take a lousy job - I am far less likely to find a match position when one finally opens. I can support my child so much better if I make what I am worth.

So - here I am sharing my history and situation.
Married, with 4 year old child, wife that 1) hates sex, 2) will not try, and 3) told me to look elsewhere. And me just wanting to find a friend to go to the movies, get out with, talk to, etc... just a friend. Maybe next year that will be different, I will probably have a new job - but I do not want to dwell or plan on it. I would be happy having someone I am attracted to - to laugh with and live as friends.

The up-side is if I did meet someone - I would have a reason to try harder to find a job.
Right now - I have struggled with passing thoughts of 'why the hell am I here' - suicide would be an option - except for my son - a reason to live... I have suffered depression in the past - nearly getting killed in a bicycle accident - medication did nothing to change my mood - not a physical drug fixable feeling - I understand these are... were! only passing thoughts and the future will be different.

I have yet to fully cheat (as in intimate sex) though the desire exists... (I did meet a gal via a platonic invitation last year, after the movie was over, just before we parted, we kissed for a couple minutes - she was nearing divorce herself - clothes on, no intimacy - just a moment of distraction... we parted and have not seen each other again - I do regret it, but hardly call it cheating as it really went no where. Note, this was after the wife told me to find someone else - this fact was never mentioned to my date as we had no intentions of anything besides friends - no intention of fooling around existed before a spontaneous kiss... She knew I was married and I her.

So why am I posting here - just looking for suggestions I guess. I refuse to pretend to be single to get dates - I am not a liar. I enjoy being honest and feel no relationship can last without honesty and respect. She failed to show me this - not being honest with me about, as it seems, just wanting to have my child - and not respect as if she did, she would - as others write - understand it is our duty to please the desires of our partner - that is what marriage is about...
What do you folks think I should do:
1) Divorce now, be forced into a $10/hr job just to pay child support when I was making $60k/year before.
2) Stay married and do as my wife said - have an open marriage - I hate the word 'cheat'... I am a Lutheran and although at times wonder if God is still around - I DO have strong values - even if I am human and slip occasionally.
3) Stay married and tough it out - like some here, go 14 more years without sex.

I had a pen-pal psychologist not too long ago after she posted for a platonic friend (I'd swear that was her job - never asked) who would write me pages upon pages of why what is happening... was nice to email someone - but went no-where and gained nothing. She too - apparently did not believe all I want is a friend.............. for now and as far ahead as I care to look.

p.s. Sorry - I do like to type... maybe I should be a writer...
 MNFriend4U
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 302
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:06:15 PM
Oops... of course - typing so much, I am not an 'editor' that catches bugs till it posts.
where I wrote:

What have I done since then:
I have posted on CL looking for a Friend.


I should have wrote:
What have I done since then:
I have posted on Plenty of fish looking for a Friend. Deleting and recreating my profile thinking the name made some difference... since March 2008.

The CL reference should go with the gal mentioned

(I did meet a gal via a platonic invitation last year,


Yeah - I am a nerd (though no glasses), a perfectionist some times, always tries to be as clear as I can...
Thanks for reading...
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 306
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:59:38 AM
"Can one judge others for having justifiable needs of intimacy met outside the marriage after they have given an honest attempt at resolving intimacy issues at home? Do we hold a "deal" over our "legitimate needs?" "

If you vowed monogamy, then end the marraige and then go get the 'lgegitimate needs' met elsewhere instead of within the marragie.

I have no problem with the existence of the needs .... but with the integrity of the vow and what it means about whether the person can be trusted to keep their word.
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 307
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/16/2009 1:02:12 AM
"The first marriage he was hardly ever home either ....
The second marriage I would beg for sex and he always came up with an excuse. "

In both instances he was unavailable. See if you can find any early warning signs in those relationships that you missed. Any ways you might have known that after marraige they would make themselves unavailable. Then make that a red flag for future relationships.
 dave1234
Joined: 11/7/2004
Msg: 309
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/16/2009 1:57:55 PM

(Msg 421) Re: Dave1234's reasons why he is here.

I dunno...I still think it is strange. Does your wife know you are on here?

And again I dunno re last question...don't see your photo! LOL!


My wife knows I chat with people on the computer. I doubt she is aware of all the specific sites/people I connect with, HOWEVER, (and this really does require stressing) three years after we met and were living together I drove to Pennsylvania to meet a group of people I had chatted with on the net. I stayed three days in a hotel with 20 or so other people from the "chat room". I went alone.

We both attended a get-together in NY State and I went to Toronto by myself for a couple of days.

As for my photo I keep it hidden out of respect for my wife. Unfortunately, there are people who might see my photo on this site and draw all sorts of incorrect conclusions, if you know what I mean. And while we're on the subject of photos I must say you certainly take a good one.
 Arabianangel
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 315
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/16/2009 3:35:40 PM
I fail to understand the hypocracy of those that are in an 'open marriage'...
 Arabianangel
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 318
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/17/2009 5:45:21 AM

It's not my cup of tea, but it's not that hard to understand why people choose open marriages rather than divorce.
There's more to being married than sex. They like living together, they like their lifestyle, they love their children...


You think?...I don't know dear friend, I think it's more a hunger for OVER indulgence or some sick addictions that society has deemed acceptable...then they give it this glossy label and call it OPEN Marriages for open minded people.

Also if there is more to marriage than sex why the over indulgence with various partners?...
 tennisman2388
Joined: 3/26/2009
Msg: 322
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/17/2009 7:14:39 AM
"If he says anything otherwise he's sitting on the fence. Drop him like a hot potato."

Correct. And on one side of the fence are the snapping pitbulls named anger, confusion, frustration, self-doubt and loneliness.

And on the other side contains a vast canyon of abyss-which may or may not have a bottom. I admire those that have made the decision to jump off. However, some of us are still teetering on the edge.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 323
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/17/2009 8:32:59 AM
A marriage has certain expectations. Suppose it's a traditional marriage, where the man goes off to work and the woman takes care of the home. Eventually, she decides she no longer wants to cook and do his laundry, and no amount of discussion, readjustment of roles, or counselling gets her back in the kitchen even though things are still fine in the bedroom (despite dirty sheets). Sure, he could divorce her, or he could go undernourished and wear dirty clothes, or he could go to a restaurant and be served in style and comfort and take his clothes to a laundry service. Yes, he's cheating on the expectations of the marriage, but she reneged on her part of the deal first!

Most people would say that despite still loving her and still having sex, he should divorce her before going to a restaurant. But how is he going to eat in the meantime, so he can keep on living and earning (if clean shirts don't matter) and maintain their existence for them both? Man does not live by bread and water alone.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 334
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Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/18/2009 3:07:03 AM
rvroksgp...you are new to the site...and I don't know if you've read all the posts to this thread. Much of what I've posted before is from a point of view on a situation similar to your own---a spouse withholding intimacy from the other. Here are two of mine:
from post 180 pg 7

Cheating is wrong morally.
Withholding sex and intimacy is wrong morally.
What's commonly suggested here is that there's 'a pass' or something 'less moral' for those who choose not to remain intimate; and no pass for those who choose to take the intimacy out of the marriage. Both in these instances are equally morally wrong.
Marriage insists that you are everything to each other forever - it's that simple and that difficult. Marriage is not easy because you cannot and will not feel the same over time; so how you get to have a successful longstanding marriage from that place of bliss where you started out is the challenge...and a tremendous one at that. I failed in my marriage by not honoring the terms of the contract in my marriage. Any resultant action on the part of my ex was as a result immoral to our marriage but no more than my own role. jmo

from post 200 pg 8

"..... if the couple is determined to stay within the marriage and have no sex between them...the nuts and bolts around bringing sex back individually to each needs to be the discussion. Women/men cannot unilaterally expect to make a huge breach in the terms of their marriage and not expect something else to rise up to take the place of what was, whether that is cheating or a reworking and a new understanding around the marriage from where it is now...given the breach, or separation.

You might also be interested in reading posts from ACP throughout.
 fanofjan
Joined: 4/23/2007
Msg: 336
Sucked in
Posted: 9/18/2009 3:43:19 AM
Lots of vulnerable young women get sucked into lies such as these.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF SINGLE GUYS OUT THERE. LEAVE THE MARRIED ONES ALONE; IF THE GUY WILL CHEAT ON HIS WIFE; HONEY, HE WILL CHEAT ON YOU!!! BETTER TO BE ALONE THAN 'WITH' A MARRIED GUY.

MY EX-HUSBAND CHEATED ON ME FOR YEARS. HE IS THE LOSER, NOT ME!!
LET HIM ROT WITH THE BARTENDER GIRLFRIEND WHILE I WILL ONE DAY FIND THE 'LOVE OF MY LIFE' : AN HONORABLE, NICE GUY!
 yrag111
Joined: 9/7/2008
Msg: 338
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/18/2009 5:53:21 AM
Allot depends on the situation. My wife (who I Love very much) Has a long term illness, and is unable to have sex. In the last 10 yrs I have had 2 non-sexual relationships. both of these women wouldn't have sex as long as Im married. You have no way of knowing how hard it is in some situations. I would have had sex with either one of them, and would not have felt guilty. besides sometimes you need someone you can trust to get your feelings out.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 340
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/18/2009 6:43:22 AM
I really dislike cheating. There are usually alternatives, though I can certainly understand the reason people do it.

Let's say you have back pain. Untreated, it causes a great deal of physical and mental pain, discomfort, and unhappiness. Your spouse can easily relieve the pain simply by giving you a 15 minute back massage a few times a week. However, for whatever reason, she won't or can't do so, despite discussions and even meetings with the doctor and counsellors. Everything else about the relationship is wonderful, and who would leave over such a thing, really? So, what would you do? Of course, you'd get someone else to give you a back massage - you'd fnd a massage or physical therapist, or maybe the neighbor will do it in exchange for mowing the lawn. Whatever. Is the spouse going to say, "No, you can't get a massage, even though I won't give you one"?

How is the pain of lack of intimacy different? It certainly leads to real mental anguish, physical discomfort, and emotional distress. Rejection hurts, and we all know know what that's like, and some know it on a continuing basis. If your spouse won't work with you on this, then sure, you can leave even if everything else is great, but as in the example above, is there a true mutual benefit to leaving versus staying? If you've gone through the usual process of trying to resolve the issue, and your spouse is unwilling to give you permission to seek intimacy elsewhere, cheating is reasonable. It's still a sad and unfortunate situation. If the spouse is denying intimacy out of lack of love, then you'd probably be better off leaving despite everything else, but it's seldom a clear-cut decision and the factors will be different for each person.

You may raise the issue of vows - those are a religious argument, as they are not necessarily part of the legal contract, and if you don't believe in the religion seriously, they may not hold much weight. I could care less about that aspect - I'm interested in the ethical and practical issues. My vows, for example, only commited us to staying together "as long as you both shall love." There were no other promises, and we can petty easily assess the "state of the union" at any time.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 343
view profile
History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/18/2009 8:15:33 AM
Rules. Laws. Social conventions. These are all abstractions and shortcuts to provide guidance for what usually works, or to encourage certain policies and preferences.

These things are conveniences, and are sometimes wrong, sometimes misguided, sometimes harmful, but for the most part make it easier for people to co-exist. There are exceptions to all of them, and many are routinely ignored by everyone. (The obvious one is that virtually no-one always or even usually obeys speed limits.) We've also seen many laws changed because they were wrong - e.g., segregation.

Breaking rules, etc., isn't necessarily bad, and usually when you do, there are no consequences to you or others (unless you're caught), unless the rule you break causes direct harm to another.
 MNFriend4U
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 345
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History
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:44:07 PM

I tend to think those who put "married, looking for friends" are probably telling the truth.


Just had to say thanks... although I posted a too long description of my situation - it is nice to see one person acknowledge the possibility.

Too many here say they just don't get why a Married person would want a Friend.
Others say they don't understand why have an open marriage - why not just get divorced.

I can answer both in one sentence: Me and my wife fell out of love (at least on her side, she no longer wants intimacy in our relationship) - AND - we have a 4yo child.

So - in the interest of our child, we with to remain as husband/wife in our child's eyes... we behave as a married couple completely with the exception of sex - which a child wouldn't see anyways. At some point in the future, I am sure we will divorce - for me, I'm thinking when I can properly support my child. I was laid-off. This issue is not about paying child-support - it is about me being in a condition where I can be happy with the support I can provide - if forced to pay child support now, I would have to take some lousy job just to pay it - if I can find a job befitting my professional status and get my life secure - then I can more easily support our child in the future. So - for now, we are together.

Sex - sure, as with any guy it is desired... but it is not that important... so I post looking for a friend - hopefully someone I can grow with and when I do divorce - pursue a more intimate relationship. My wife told me to 'find someone else'... but I see no problem enjoying life, doing things together, walks, zoo, dinners, movies as friends without intimacy... would it not make for a longer-lasting relationship if we truly spend time as friends before becoming intimate? And who knows, maybe just stay friends...

I think I am as happy as I can be where I am at for now... just hope to make some friends here. Too bad, although many post for 'Friends' - none I have replied to have come close to really showing interest in making a friend - even women that post as married looking for a friend... I am always optimistic... Have a Great Day!
 larissan04
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 346
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/3/2011 7:20:24 PM
i have had several male friends over the years that have been stuck in marriages like the one you describe. personally, i real marriage is one that has sexual intimacy. if a woman cuts a man off like this, then she is pushing her husband away. sure, cheating is wrong, and it certainly can hurt a lot of people, but both parties have responsibility here. if the guy is that unhappy then he should probably leave the marriage regardless of the cost. the child support will not last forever, and he will be happier in the long run if he can have a real relationship with someone who is able to be physically and emotionally available. sometimes the break down in the sexual intimacy isn't simply as cut and dry as the woman not wanting to have sex. often the man is not making an effort to create passion in the marriage. it's a tough situation, but ultimately the couple either makes an effort to fix it or they should break up. period.
 lacalli
Joined: 11/27/2011
Msg: 347
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/3/2011 7:23:14 PM

Man has worked very hard for many years, nice house, kids, material possessions, etc, but has no intimacy at home. Chooses to stay in the marriage as he knows the alimony will crush him, she stays home, raises kids, and he will lose half of everything he has worked so hard for. So he seeks intimacy outside the marriage.

I am hearing this so often, as a single person, I ask, why do u stay? The above reply is what I hear.

I absolutely hate admitting this...BUT...I can actually see their point? Any opinions would be appreciated.

Then I guess their (your) decision has been made and I'm not sure why you'd want or need anyone else's opinions. Those of us who are old enough to remember the much vilified feminist movement of the 60's and 70's also remember how many couples were stuck in absolutely miserable marriages. The men felt pressure to be men and meet their responsibilities as husbands and fathers no matter how unhappy they were and the women either had never worked or quit their jobs to stay home with their kids and couldn't afford to leave. It was hell for many people.
Now people have options and choices they didn't in the past and if they choose material things over happiness that's on them. I couldn't live that way and to be honest I don't understand it but I guess to each his own.
 Bears09
Joined: 9/6/2011
Msg: 348
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/3/2011 7:37:10 PM
My friend this is where you need to go. itstheremedy
 cbbull21
Joined: 3/9/2009
Msg: 349
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/3/2011 8:02:41 PM
Just remember, it's not cheating on you if they never bother coming back to you,
i.e. "two timing".
 ravenhair4u
Joined: 8/13/2011
Msg: 350
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/4/2011 9:50:12 AM
There is no justification or cheating. It's as selfish act that devastates ppl & destroys relationships. Leave the relationship you are in b/4 you start another.
 lacalli
Joined: 11/27/2011
Msg: 351
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/4/2011 9:56:57 AM
Unless your spouse is in a nursing home or extremely ill then apparently it's ok.
 borazon
Joined: 11/29/2011
Msg: 354
Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 12/30/2011 9:40:24 PM
Cheating can never be justified.
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