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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?      Home login  
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 whatIlikeaboutyou
Joined: 3/21/2009
Msg: 135
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?Page 10 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
whatever happened to the encouragement and utilization of individuated skills and talents, regardless of gender?

Just a thought.

But then again, that might be what you are trying to convey...


Yes that was EXACTLY my point.

Men held positions that they were not that suited for because they had less competition so it was easier to get a place in college and well paid jobs....... while women who were better suited to a college education and smarter than lots of those men were DISCOURAGED.

Never mind. Women are doing very well in college now so it's a moot point - history pretty much. Perhaps science and math are the last bastions but they won't last much longer.

I expect an even proportion of men and women in all intellectual fields in a very short time, therefore dispelling the myth that women are not as smart as men.......
 zedstead
Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 136
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/6/2009 10:20:08 PM


This doesn't prove the girls are unfairly advantaged and that the boys are short changed. She only vaguely quotes one study where the students said teachers like girls more. Well maybe that's the boys fault because they are difficult to manage.

She also said boys have more learning disabilities, poorer attendance, slower maturity in language (brain development) and are not as good at focus and concentration.

These are all valid reasons for boys to be outcompeted by girls. This is not shortchanging of boys.

This is girls simply being better at academics than boys.


Ouch. I have to say I think you're now swinging too far the other way. You really can't claim the reason women have not done as well in some things is societal, and then say then the reason men do things badly is biological, that isn't fair. There might easily be social reasons why men are worse with language. My experience does reflect this - I was in a French program and by the time I graduated hardly any boys were left in our classes. I agree that boys generally seem to misbehave - but why should everyone have to sit there and "be good' anyway? It might just be that girls are better at "being good" and studying hard.

In proving that men are not more intelligent than women, you don't have to expound that women are MORE intelligent, or we'll get nowhere. There could easily be something in our culture (maybe not even the education system) that is making it more difficult. Girls tend to socialize with girls where focus is on communication, boys socialize in a system that doesn't allow them the same intricacy of communication. One could even argue the reason there are more men in maths and sciences is because there isn't the pressure to communicate emotively, and so numbers are easier - and being able to sit around and talk about numbers. Maybe boys need less time in front of the video games and more time actually talking and listening. Maybe the quantity of sugar and additives in food today affects boys more? Who knows, but the question needs further study. I also wonder what the numbers are in different cultures.
 whatIlikeaboutyou
Joined: 3/21/2009
Msg: 137
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:22:32 PM
Oh calm down.
I SAID ..............the author of the paper attached to the link above said that boys suffer more learning disabilities, have poorer communication, poorer concentration and cooperation etc etc etc from the numerous studies she researched. Go read the paper yourself. She also said girls are no longer discouraged in school and I took it to be quite encouraging. If you can find some hard evidence that she quoted where it is proven boys are unfairly disadvantaged PLEASE COPY AND PASTE IT HERE. I didn't see it at all.


<div class='quote'> You really can't claim the reason women have not done as well in some things is societal,

I can and I did and so have many more learned people than you.


<div class='quote'> and then say then the reason men do things badly is biological,
where did I say that.....although for some it is


<div class='quote'>that isn't fair

have you never heard of the truth being called UNKIND........suck it up princess

Don't shoot the messenger ok? I simply was repeating what she and many others have researched as quoted in her paper.

Also I did not ever say women are broadly more intelligent than men, ever. I have never once said women are overall superior to men. I firmly believe we are different, have different strengths in general and of course as individuals. You jump to conclusions I have not said and do not believe.

I said some women who more deserved places in academia and professions were kept out and their places were taken by lesser men. That's just common sense based on our society in the past. I'm sorry you are so uncomfortable with that obvious fact that you will dispute it in the face of insurmountable evidence.

Also, about your comments on communication and men and women.

There have recently (10 yrs) been neurological and sociological as well as psychological studies which have strongly suggested that the female brain is much better at translating thoughts and feelings into words. Of course these have been hotly contested by indignant male scientists. This has been posited as being due to the larger size of the corpus colossum in women (spelling - can't be bothered to look it up).

It makes sense since the survival of babies depends on a mothers ability to communicate with a child that cannot say what is wrong or what they need. Therefore babies born to women of greater intuition and communication skills would have better chances of survival. Duh.

It's no different than the claim that men have better spacial recognition skills than women due to hunting........ so what's the big deal.
 zedstead
Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 138
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/7/2009 12:16:36 AM
Actually I am pretty calm. I just picked one quote of yours from several posts where you were basically repeating yourself (not that I don't repeat myself - my point is that I didn't know which slice to take from all of it to comment on). Did you really call me princess? Wow I don't think I've ever been called that in my life. And how on earth do you know how learned I am?


Is anyone seriously so convinced of male intellectual superiority that they assume (ass-u-me) conclude that if girls are outcompeting boys academically it has to be because the boys are being short changed? There are absolutely no irrefutable neurological studies that prove mens brains are superior to womens so ....this is simply GENDER PREJUDICE.


Why so angry with the idea that there is a cultural/social reason why boys are perhaps losing in this game? You simply have no reason to reject this notion outright, as I don't believe there is enough evidence to show why this is happening.
I don't believe all behaviour can be explained using anatomical physical proof. These kinds of hypotheses crop up and get modified or rejected regularly. Your arguments have the same condescending tone as men of past ages who put women in their place, using "logical, rational" statements. There can be no neurological studies showing ANY kind of superiority with ANY kind of behaviour. I prefer to allow that the truth of the matter will always be more complex than our current understanding.


And perhaps if some boys\men are so physical that they can't concentrate on anything intellectual it's appropriate that they do physical jobs like construction instead of trying to get an education and be a professional. That's fine, their spots in college will be filled with women who deserve them more. That's fine,

Umm I don't know how you can't see the condescending tone in this. You seem to gloat, as though this is a war, and finally women have triumphed.

If you want to discuss this then try using your
very advanced people skills, communication, cooperation, collaboration, teamwork etc
Please avoid name calling and projection as we don't need a female version of tbuddha on here.
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 139
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/7/2009 2:59:47 AM

Also I did not ever say women are broadly more intelligent than men, ever. I have never once said women are overall superior to men.


No, you haven't. I have noted this. But you have insinuated it.


suck it up princess


The only time I have heard a person say this, is when a man says this to a woman, and he is desperately trying to get the woman to abide by what he is saying or doing.

How refreshing it is to see it spoken from one woman to another.

It almost makes me agree with what heterotic said earlier, although it has not been within my experience.


It's no different than the claim that men have better spacial recognition skills than women due to hunting........ so what's the big deal.


You are absolutely right. There isn't a difference.
 zedstead
Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 140
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/7/2009 10:27:36 AM
Yeah I think the line of questioning had to do with the "hard sciences" maths, and those things that were in the more abstract realm of science. Maths are used in all science but it is the question of why women don't seem to pursue the pure math stream was what I thought was being asked.

I'm not particularly fond of quoting any "men are better at spatial skills" either because it is only an average. SOME men are very good, and likely the overlap is quite large. There are very few things that men and women ALWAYS do better than each other. Apparently, the Y chromosome comprises 0.38% of the DNA in humans - not a lot. The differences between individuals always outweighs the differences between the 2 groups, not even considering the true hermaphrodites and chromosomal anomalies.
 whatIlikeaboutyou
Joined: 3/21/2009
Msg: 141
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/7/2009 11:03:20 AM
Please avoid name calling and projection as we don't need a female version of tbuddha on here.


Namecalling?????? You? You are hallucinating. I went back and checked.

As for learning.....are you suggesting you are more learned than all the studies that were quoted in that paper?????????? No, but you insinuate lol.

Isn't projection exactly what you do when you misquote and twist words to provoke rather than debate and accuse me of being anything like a man who insists women are inferior intellectually to men. Wow, and this from a woman. Sigh.

BTW I didn't even notice you were a woman when I told you to suck it up and honestly why should it make a difference.

Your insistence on misinterpreting meaning has spoiled the debate and anyway, I'm satisfied I stated myself clearly so....you're going to have to go pick a row based on twisting others words to fit your assumptions with someone else.
 zedstead
Joined: 9/3/2009
Msg: 142
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/7/2009 1:57:16 PM
whatilikeaboutyou - you're baiting, and I'm not biting. Go back and read everything you've written on here, without prejudice, and then read what I wrote. I didn't pick a fight with you, but it's extremely obvious you're trying to pick a fight with me. I'm done.
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 143
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/8/2009 7:19:42 PM

I wonder why there aren't more male teachers?


Oh stop it xzanthius...we were having a fun conversation that revolved around male/female polarization, and now you have to spoil it by asking a pertinent, political, social-economical question...

Which has already been done, but definitely needs revisiting...
 Martin D Martian
Joined: 10/17/2009
Msg: 144
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:30:41 AM
How do you know. Did you count them ? I remember having more women math teachers in school. So,I always thought that women were somehow better at Mathematics. I just remembered a math problem; "A boos at a tray factory tells you he wants you to design a tray double the size of the existing tray. Prove why you would need 8 times more material ? " My aswer to this is; 2^3. 2 to the power of 3 dimensions. 2*2*2 = 8. You need more than just double the material.Because,the tray occupies 3 dimensional space. Agree ?
Anyway, I once read about Friedrich Gauss in Scientific American Presents;Mathematics; In Germany. A teacher asked her child students what is the sum of all the numbers between and and 100. Including 1 & 100 ? She thought it would keep them busy for a while so that she could do something else. Friedrich yelled out the answer right away.
If it wasn't for her asking/pondering the question. We might not have the full solution to this day. So,it seems that she was interested in knowing the right answer. So,she was involved in math.
 iTsMeJuLi
Joined: 10/27/2008
Msg: 145
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:35:35 PM
on topic

Back when I went to school girls weren't encouraged to pursue math and sciences. I remember being in the 8th grade and wanting to be a veterinarian, I was laughed at.

Math is a weakness for me, I blame that on the lousy teachers I had in grade school and high school. One of my math teachers was a gym teacher, seriously. I barely passed that class.

I didn't go to college until I was in my 30s. I discovered that I could in fact do math if I was taught and did a lot of homework. Even then I was lucky to get a B no matter how hard I tried.

I'm in college now studying to be a nurse. I really enjoyed the anatomy classes and am now doing microbiology.

On tv I like to watch documentaries on The Science channel and Smithsonian channel. Astronomy, chemistry, physics, geology, etc etc do interest me and I like to learn about it all.

If I could go back in time and back to school I'd go into something in microbiology or physiology. Well, except maybe for that damn Kreb's cycle.

Ok, so to spin it around...how many men are actually attracted to women who are interested in careers in the sciences?
 ExitingTheStage
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 146
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 7/28/2012 12:33:07 AM
Because stereotypes exist for a reason?
 onlydateIF
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 147
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/11/2012 7:41:17 PM
because they get pushed down and out by some men who don't like them there is part of the reason. They are also more encouraged to pursue certain fields in school, though this is changing quite a bit.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 148
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/21/2012 9:26:28 PM
I see that this old thread has been reborn!

Having a Math and Computer Science degree myself, I guess I can answer this.

When I went to U of Waterloo for my Math degree (many years ago) I was a minority .... there were mostly males .... and mostly Asians.
So, being a female, I was a minority, from a gender perspective, and from a nationality perspective.
I am very used to working and discussing with mostly males.

These days women are not as much a minority in maths and sciences as they were then, but the numbers are not equal to males. Why? There have been many studies done, and many theories as have been noted on this thread.

There are more women in the science fields than in the math fields, although sometimes you cannot separate the math from the science since they are intertwined together.

My observations, especially now that I am teaching high school (college part-time):
1. Historically, culture and stereotypes governed the fact that not many women were accepted on par with men in the math and science fields.
2. Most elementary school teachers are female and not strong in math, so students don't get a good start in Math unless they have inert math skills. People with strong math skills do not tend to be elementary school teachers.
3. There are still many stereotypical views by people. If the parents are not strong in the maths and sciences, and the elementary school teachers are not, then their children tend not to be.
4. Most students who are strong in math and science have parents (at least one) who are strong in the maths and sciences. In the past the strong math and science person was the father. More and more mothers have these skills now.
5. Since historically the men were stronger in maths and sciences, then the male parents were the role models for their children in these disciplines.
6. If students don't get a good start in math in elementary school, they continue to struggle in high school. The foundations start in elementary school
7. Most administrators are not from the math and science disciplines, so they support the other subjects more than the maths and sciences - they only support the maths and sciences since the curriculum requires this, not from their own interest perspective

So, when people say things are changing .... they are ...... in theory there should be less stereotypes, etc ... however .... our society is now a society where if something takes too much effort, many people will not be interested. Since the maths and sciences takes too much effort for some people, they will not pursue these fields. ...

Also: Do you believe in the "dumbing down the population" conspiracy theory? Sometimes I wonder is this is happening. It is not only women who are not in the maths and sciences, as a whole, there are less people in the maths and sciences.

Note: Statistically there are more women going to universities and colleges .... but if you look at the numbers more closely .... they are mostly in the health related fields.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 149
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History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/21/2012 10:07:59 PM
My daughter told me today that she thought calculus was beautiful. She is very much further then me in academics.
She loves her school work notebook. She refuses to doodle because it takes away from the symmetry of the calculations.


Does that count?
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 150
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/21/2012 10:19:03 PM
That is great to hear! .. and yes, it does count ..... although doodling is good .... I used to doodle in my history classes!
 Walley7
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 151
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/22/2012 5:01:02 AM
Let's be frank. Men and women, generally speaking, have different capacities. We're willing to admit the physical ones because they're unavoidable, but we do like to pretend the mental ones don't exist in the name of this bogus idea of 'equality'. I might note that we play the same game when comparing the races as well, lol.

Of course a lot of the problem is that we have attributed worth to these things. Being more capable at something does not mark one as being worth more than someone else unless YOU attach worth to that thing. That men are for instance perhaps more 'built' for these fields for example is not a value distinction until you people make it one.

The whole attempt for men and women and races to be the same is basically stupidity: nature does not breed quality, it never has and never will. Better to get over it lol.

Besides, a dog is as beautiful as a cat, or vice versa, so what is the point of trying to force them into the same mould? You only douse the individuality and turn it all into bland grey muck when you try to do that, which is what we have done and what we are doing. It's utterly tasteless.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 152
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/22/2012 11:41:24 AM

Also: Do you believe in the "dumbing down the population" conspiracy theory? Sometimes I wonder is this is happening. It is not only women who are not in the maths and sciences, as a whole, there are less people in the maths and sciences.


Yes.

My daughter tends to do very well in school. She prided herself in getting into honors and AP classes. This current semester the school 'changed the rules' for admissions into these classes. They opened them up to all students regardless of past grade performance or achievements or any other measurement for aptitude. It was done specifically to give everyone equal chance. My daughter is noticing the class now spends additional time dealing with the students that have a lack of interest, drive, and aptitude. Time that was spent moving forward is now spent remaining in place.

Anecdotal... of course. Surprising... no.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/05/ap-surges-as-tool-for-sch_0_n_1486369.html


The proportion of all tests taken last year earning the minimal score of 1 increased over that time, from 13 percent to 21 percent. At many schools, virtually no students pass.


Under the guise of 'equality' with the real motivation of receiving federal dollars the education system is destroying education. On purpose? Depends... Since the obvious motivation isn't in bringing out the best for society and for children and is in fact purposeful manipulation to keep ones job then yes it is on purpose. The unfortunate impacts of this is a dependence on government and a failing generation of students who now believe they are not smart enough to compete. Good job. What comes next? Human nature should make it pretty clear. Beer.

This would be what I would commonly refer to as the 'leftist' agenda. Basically under a false ideal of 'equality' destroying everything but feeling good about it until everyone has a dependence on government and is too stupid to realize what is occurring and we then eventually elect a tyrant and live in a totalitarian nation.

:) 1 and 1 really can equal three and I can prove it.
 justdeb1111
Joined: 8/12/2012
Msg: 153
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/22/2012 9:23:15 PM
There are millions of women in math and science--they are called registered nurses. We keep your physicians out of court and you out of the morgue. Isn't it nice that there is a growing number of men becoming interested in that career.
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