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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?      Home login  
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 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 51
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?Page 3 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
You ladies shouldn't get all hurt and need to criticize just because you aren't good at math. I don't go around arguing that I can have babies, and woman are about as good at math as I am at getting pregnant.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 52
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/26/2009 9:02:13 PM
Nothing ad hominem about it. My school was only 3 examples (3 classes). You can go to any college in the country and the advanced math classes will be predominantly men. Don't take the fact that women aren't as good at math as a personal attack, it's just the way it is.

You're being illogical when you say that by pointing that out, that it means I hate women. I never said I hated the math challenged gender.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 53
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/27/2009 7:03:23 AM

Results from 1996 national assessment tests show 17-year-old boys lead girls by only five points in math.


Yeah, cause these days 17 year olds are still only adding fractions. I'm talking about the hard mathematics, like trig and calculus. Go to any college advanced math class in the country and it's over 80% male.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 54
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/27/2009 7:54:35 AM
^^^No, just reading this thread is reaffirming the fact that a woman's role is that of homemaker and nurturer and their minds are not naturally geared to logic or problem solving. Furthermore, there have ALWAYS been SOME women that are capable of math, just like there are some men with great feminine qualities.

If you want to think that our only differences are between our legs, you're only hurting yourself.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 55
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:34:27 AM
^^^blah, blah, blah....

Look, the only reason there are that many female math teachers are because women tend to be teachers more. Let's not get into socialist Britain where that number has been beefed up with satisfying quotas. I'm sure the level of math proficiency in that dismal country is dropping as a result.

I'm not a troll, just completely over with the feminism. When I meet a woman that can solve the equations I was at 17, I'll be impressed. So far, I've only met men that were as smart as me in math and for some reason a lot of the most brilliant math minds I have met have been Indian men. Maybe because they still embrace traditional gender roles and aren't trying to fool themselves about women's math abilities.

The only "men" that think women have logical abilities equal to men are the ones that haven't excelled much and are a sad result of feminism.
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 56
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/27/2009 6:37:00 PM
^^^^Diva I love how your mind works, and think you can out think most people in the room. I hope that he was joking. But in his "defense" he said that women were merely in math class not good at them. Before I get flamed, just pointing out what he said not agree with him. Tbuddah, I have worked with many women in Aviation. They excel in the science of medicne "nursing" prodomently which requires a lot of math for dosages. My last primary care physican was a woman. Let's get real, I would say that women are in math and sciences but, the are in the empathatic hard sciences. I would challenge anyone here to take a nursing course and hold the opinion women aren't in the sciences. Oh as I stated earlier on this thread they are in biotech, and information technologies.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 57
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/27/2009 8:08:00 PM
I'm not joking. I referenced a girl I know that is now an engineer at Northrup Grumman. She was in my Calc 2 class. She was the brightest female math student I've ever known, and I had to tutor her so she could pass.

I've never met a woman with the math/logic/problem solving skills of me or my colleagues. I'm sure there are plenty of women better than a lot of men at math, but the brightest female is still not going to be as proficient as the brightest man, nor is the average female as good at math as the average man.

Don't take it so personal. It's not like guys are out there saying, "She's really hot, but, I just can't date a chick that can't even handle derivatives." We couldn't care less how good at math you are, and that's probably part of the reason women aren't good at it.
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 58
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/27/2009 8:34:36 PM
Biotech is what I would call an empahatic science because it is about finding cures to pathogens.

Empathic sciences are one that deal with healing or overall betterment of the human condition. Medicine, Biology, Chemistry (depending on branch)

An RN needs to know how to do the dosage calculations. It is part of the circula. Esp. on an IV drip. Too much too soon, can kill someone. I know this from Combat life saver. You mention Anatomy and Phys. but what about microbiology and the other science based courses. So yes math is important. Sorry you're just wrong on this one. I took a semester of nursing before comming to the realization it wasn't for me.

I was responding to what you quoted tbuddha said. Sorry, I'm not buying his arguement either. I can explain the Calc percentage. It may have nothing to do with skill but major. Heck, unless you're going into Engineering or Physics you don't need calc three. Even in Engineering it is questionable. And the fact that some girls didn't think that they could pass the course doesn't mean that they weren't good at it. It could be for various reasons. Freshmen, that wanted a math core course but didn't like it. Some had a more difficult semester then orginally planed therefore withdrew to save GPA and will retake at a later date etc. Your example doesn't hold up.

Aviation is not empathic science. Just some personal experience. I should have put that in another sentence.
 nevaagin
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 59
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/28/2009 1:23:41 AM
I have been reading about a woman called Vera Rubin ... yes in "Wrinkles in Time ' ... who in between breast feeding her babies 'embarked on a series of observations that would undermine orthodox views of the universe ' . She was onl y 23 when she began her observations and conclusions .Within a couple of years of the publication of her paper , dark matter had become an obssession among cosmologists . Her photo shows a pretty young woman at work and yet ...[ as I have learnt , things must have moved along further to her work ].. she did all this whilst carrying , giving birth to chidren , breast feeding them ! I'm sure you all know more about her ... but my point is that there is nothing that will stop a woman in her quest for knowledge , nothing that makes her inferior to a man ... except a silly woman who gives way to her husband or partners's undermining , often sooo subtle, of her confidence !
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 60
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/28/2009 3:05:52 AM
Diva,

I thought you might say that all science is for the betterment of humanity to which I will tell you an old joke.

Whats the difference between a mechanical and a civil engineer?
A mechanical engineer makes bombs.
A civil engineer makes targets.

So there you go not all science is purely good. But what I meant having a immdiate impact on the individual. It goes to a womans motherly instincts. This is not true in all cases.

Aviation is just merely getting a machine in the air. It is a neutral science.

Oh Einstein's wife helped him prefect the theory of realitivity. Both the general and special.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 61
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/28/2009 5:50:25 AM
After painfully reading so many sexist and misogynistic observations in this thread, it is clear that it is a microcosm of the real world of academia, and illustrates how men are seemingly duty bound to slap "uppity" women down. It's only been in the last century that women were allowed to vote and move toward equality in our culture. The glass ceiling remains as the good ole boy network goes into overtime when threatened with too much equality.

A friend of mine, a PHD in Anthropology, was recently denied tenure for the crime of reporting sexual harrassment in her department. Charges against her were manufactured, Homeland Security and the FBI were called in to investigate her, and a concerted campaign by the good old boys proved effective at ruining her career, making her lose her home, and having to move. It did not matter that HS and the FBI exonerated her, that a peer review exhonerated her, and colleagues gave glowing testimonials. She would not be forgiven for bringing sexual harrassment to light. Her case is all too common in male dominated academia.

The Knoxville chapter of the American Association of University Professors) in 2001 noted:

“Women are underrepresented at almost all ranks and in almost all academic units. Women comprise only 29% of all UT faculty, and only about 20% of these are tenured. There are approximately 358 women and 857 men. The gap is greatest at the full professor level where on the UTK campus women hold only 66 of the 476 full professor positions. While there are slightly more women associate professors (n=98), any trend toward increased representation seems questionable given there are currently only 77 women assistant professors. In a stepwise progression, it is these 77 women assistant professors who will, hopefully, become the full professors of the university a decade hence. This constitutes barely a replacement rate. Given the pervasive imbalance in numbers, almost every major career milestone for women is largely defined and evaluated by men.”
 techgirl27
Joined: 9/5/2005
Msg: 62
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/28/2009 4:50:31 PM
I'm about to be one of them. In fact I'm having to brush up on my math this weekend for a qual. this coming week. Got into grad school for a computer science program. Maybe I'll be able to start shooting at the glass ceiling pretty soon? The generation ahead of me is full of looming retirements.........
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 63
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/29/2009 3:44:13 PM
Diva, I missed the qutotation marks. The point is there are women in science. If not what we consider tradtionally science. I would also, state that there is no inate ablity of either gender to preform mathmatical calcuations.

I'm on a borrow computer so it may be a bit till I can respond further.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 65
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:25:54 PM
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....

It blows my mind how propagandized people are today. Women just plain aren't wired the same way men are. It's as if people think our only differences are our genitalia. I can prove you all wrong right now - check out the other posts in this science and philosophy forum and count how many men post here on various topics as opposed to women.

In general, women aren't as good at making logical decisions. I can pull out some rare exceptions to any rule. I mean how many times are people gonna use Marie Curie? The lady who understood radiation so much she died from it? Let's put that against the millions of male inventors/scientists that didn't let their work kill them. The fact that women are even trying to make the argument proves the lack of logic. It doesn't take a study. Just go to any workplace where they are using hard science and count people of each gender. Shop for any kind of engineer and you are sure to talking to a bunch of men. Sure, you can find women in these fields, but many are there to fulfill quotas and like I said there are always exceptions.

It's like asking why there aren't more men into shopping for sexy underwear. Sure, because of feminism there are a lot more sissified men who do just that, but that isn't the norm.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 66
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:59:29 PM
Sure, sure...and you couldn't debate even one issue that I brought up. You gave a couple exceptions you looked up on wikipedia or probably googled "women science". LOL

Again, do your own study. Look at how many women post in the science/philosophy forum as compared to men.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 67
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 9:23:18 PM
I say "blah blah blah" because you state opinions as fact, while ignoring the obvious. You have bought into feminism and it shows!

You still avoided the fact that this forum is 90% men and that men dominate the hard sciences. Apparently, wherever you live a lot of men are gelded.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 68
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:05:06 PM
Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 69
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 4:49:30 AM

...probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified).

Ok, let's assume for a sec that all that is true. Then the questions become why are females so susceptible to all these forces (i.e., why do they give up so easily?), and why do these forces exist and persist in the first place, and who's doing it, and why?

I'd say such hypothetical forces are invisible because at least for some 30 years or so pretty much all the "environmental and cultural" messages have been along the lines of "Girls can do ANYTHING!" (including math/science), there have been special scholarships and other official/institutional incentives specifically designed to get them into the field, etc., etc., and yet it's still a big public issue as to why they're freely choosing to do other things. Like, how can we coddle them even more?

If anything, the overt cultural message has been negative to boys -- that he'll be considered "weird", a dweeby nerd/geek that girls won't want to date cause they'll not find him "MANLY" and that the jocks will pick on and make fun of. Just think of how often trekkies, or those into gaming/anime, are stereotyped as socially inept losers who still live with their parents (invariably in the basement) and couldn't get a date to save their lives. It's fifteen or so years old now, but there used to be a joke told by women about how they wouldn't date Bill Gates even if he was a billionaire... I mean, how much more sissified can the portrayal be? Sheesh, there's even a whole major network primetime TV sit-com devoted to this very notion and the perpetuation of such stereotypes.

Yet the guys seem to persist with their interests in spite of all this constant social disapproval, yet the girls switch to being art history majors at the merest hint that maybe they're not "supposed" to do math or science?

It's a pretty lame explanation which doesn't bear much scrutiny IMO.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 70
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 7:48:36 PM
To compact on my own arguments on this subject, I found out that several administrators in my company used to work in the lab. None of them got their master's degrees and moved into admin work specifically. When I asked why they stopped going to school and why they got out of the lab they informed me it's because they didn't want to waste the degree because they wanted to be full-time mothers. They say they will not go back into the lab because the desire to discover is too great, and it is more important to raise their children.


Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.


Your interpretation of the data is lacking logic, and the fact that you can't understand that only proves my point.
 StevieCashmere
Joined: 4/22/2009
Msg: 71
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 4:07:07 PM
Parenting?!?!
~sc~
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 72
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 6:33:25 PM
^^^^

Horribly crappy parents. Scientist/mathematician.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 73
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 4:24:22 AM
I worked as a school council volunteer primarily directing fundraising initiatives for several years at my son's school. When he was in Gr. 8, and in his final year there, I developed a lunch hour brown bag kind of program for girls in Gr. 7 & 8 girls to come in and have a rather informal 'chat' around science and math and options with women who had careers in science, math, medical or engineering fields. I wanted to do this because during the previous year some of the standardized tests were revealing some drops in achievement for girls in this area, and doing this seemed like something positive.

These lunches were never that well attended....and it was hard to get more of the girls interested...and to give up some of their 'outside the school'...lunch time. The girls that showed up however were always clearly keen, and the speakers were always so impressed with the level of interest from them. The program had a lot of support by parents...but it seemed hard for some of them to translate that to their girls.

I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.

As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science. My parents gave me the 'out' in Gr. 11---and this is something I still resent them for doing. When I asked them about it much later, they said they'd figure I'd get married and wouldn't need it....I still believe if it had been one of my brothers that had struggled, they would have found a way to get him through it...(tutors)

What's funny is that I've met versions of my story several times in my life in several women that I know--their parents like my own giving the girl in family a pass on the 'hard stuff'...My dad who is now retired worked in the medical field...I've always been a bit fascinated by his work but was limited by choices that were made in high school as to what direction and path I could follow. Still interested...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 74
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 5:30:52 AM
A dear friend of mine was recently drummed out of the Anthropology department because she would not play by the rules of the good old boy network. It was not sufficient for them to merely ensure she was denied tenure, but they had to go on to manufacture all sorts of false charges to destroy her career. Her sin in there eyes, was that she would not submit to sexual harrassment and exposed it.

I don't buy the biological arguments being made here by the guys. It is a boys world in the math and sciences and there is a "no gurls allowed" attitude, or if allowed, only at a lower and subservient level.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/09/19/report_finds_bias_keeping_women_out_of_science_jobs/
"``Compared with men, women faculty members are generally paid less and promoted more slowly, receive fewer honors, and hold fewer leadership positions," the Academies said in a statement. ``These discrepancies do not appear to be based on productivity, the significance of their work, or any other performance measures."
Female minorities fare the worst, the study found.
``We found no significant biological differences between men and women in science, engineering, and mathematics that could account for the lower representation of women in academic faculty and scientific leadership positions," said Donna Shalala, president of the University of Miami and head of the committee that wrote the report.

The study was compiled by all the National Academies -- the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine -- The institutions advise the federal government.

``It is not a lack of talent but an unintended bias . . . that is locking women out," Shalala, a former secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services, said at a briefing.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 75
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 7:35:42 AM

As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science.


This is another reason why people in general end up quitting school before ever becoming a scientist. Many people don't realize that science is mathematics. You cannot be a scientist without understanding and using most mathematical theories. I use algebra and differential calculus on a daily basis, and I'm fairly low on the scientific totem pole in biochemistry.


I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.


This is true, to a point. I attended several different K-12 schools, and being popular depended upon a certain level of academics at several of them. I still was the only girl in my AP calculus class, and the only "non-social-outcast" in AP Chemistry. There were quite a few girls in my AP Biology class. When I got to college, women started out as plentiful in the lower-level science courses, and all the ones who couldn't get the math changed majors from biochemistry to a more general science degree or changed to med students. I don't know how much mathematics a doctor needs to use on a daily basis, but my assumption is that it's a lot less than I have to use. Then, many of the ones who did get it, dropped out because they got pregnant and wanted to put their kids first and be a mom. Many of the ones who finished their degrees don't work in the field because they are moms.

I really don't think it's so horrible. Children need their parents. If you plan on having children, it's really worth it to wait to get into your field until you are comfortable with your child's level of independence in school. If you stick to a plan, you can keep your mind honed in current science practice and your mathematical skills, so when you return to your field you aren't behind.

For a woman who wants kids, it really should be degree -> entry-level work -> kids -> return to work.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 76
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 1:00:14 PM

I'm sorry, but jealousy is not gender specific. If it were limited to women, then you wouldn't see so many cases of a boyfriend or husband killing his girlfriend or wife because she's left him for another man.


It depends on the source of jealousy. Women tend to be jealous of each other for subconscious reasons, and can be very vicious and catty. Is this the case of men?
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