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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?      Home login  
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 castraphe
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 102
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?Page 5 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
The reason there has been less women in math and sciences has nothing to do with ability, but with priorities, and these priorities have come from cultural conditioning. But this is definitely changing - it really has only been one generation of women that has actually grown up in the post-feminist world, and so the realities of past cultural attitudes are still very much alive. Old ways don't just disappear when new ways come in. I have a high aptitude for science and math, but was more interested in art for philosophical reasons, even though science was easier for me.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 103
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:25:54 PM
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....

It blows my mind how propagandized people are today. Women just plain aren't wired the same way men are. It's as if people think our only differences are our genitalia. I can prove you all wrong right now - check out the other posts in this science and philosophy forum and count how many men post here on various topics as opposed to women.

In general, women aren't as good at making logical decisions. I can pull out some rare exceptions to any rule. I mean how many times are people gonna use Marie Curie? The lady who understood radiation so much she died from it? Let's put that against the millions of male inventors/scientists that didn't let their work kill them. The fact that women are even trying to make the argument proves the lack of logic. It doesn't take a study. Just go to any workplace where they are using hard science and count people of each gender. Shop for any kind of engineer and you are sure to talking to a bunch of men. Sure, you can find women in these fields, but many are there to fulfill quotas and like I said there are always exceptions.

It's like asking why there aren't more men into shopping for sexy underwear. Sure, because of feminism there are a lot more sissified men who do just that, but that isn't the norm.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 104
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:59:29 PM
Sure, sure...and you couldn't debate even one issue that I brought up. You gave a couple exceptions you looked up on wikipedia or probably googled "women science". LOL

Again, do your own study. Look at how many women post in the science/philosophy forum as compared to men.
 castraphe
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 105
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 9:06:12 PM
Blah blah blah? You expect anyone to take you seriously when that's your response? Or are you just pointing out the pointlessness of your endless antagonism?

What's amazing is how propagandized YOU are into being blinded by the fact that women have been kept out of the public sphere for millenia. You can't argue against it, it's a fact. It hasn't even been a century since women were even allowed to vote. It IS logical that women have not reached the same equal status as men and have to deal with the fact that they have to give up at least a year of their adult life to continue the propagation of the species while men can get by with a few minutes.

So I'll bite then, there are tendencies that exist in some specialized forms of thought, but as far as my schooling went, the guys pretty much sucked at everything academic, including math. None of them could handle being in a language immersion program and dwindled down to about 20% of the program by the time we graduated. So why aren't you pointing out the opposite end of the argument, that men suck at language? Instead you just use derogatory, specifically sexual comparisons against women to show how utterly disgusted you are by the other half of your species. It's commendable that you can even put together sentences, based on how poor men tend to be in communication. I went to art school, and the men there were as creative as the women. The one science class we all had to take I got an A in, and all of the men I knew in the class just barely scraped by. Men who aren't good at logic and science aren't sissified, they have different brains than you do.

Math was always easy for me, but it's useless until it is applied to reality. Logic is a tool, but it has serious shortcomings when it comes to real life and human society. Since women have had to keep other fragile small human beings alive they have had to develop important holistic ways of thinking, instead of a specialized mathematical focus. Without women doing this work for the last few thousand years we'd all be dead. Your references to women's things such as shopping for underwear and pregnancy is so disgustingly misogynist. The fact that you have an extreme form of male brain that makes you incapable of empathy is frightening and sad. Thank god there are more balanced individuals from both genders.

"Logic is a sword. Those who ascribe to it will perish by it."
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 106
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 9:23:18 PM
I say "blah blah blah" because you state opinions as fact, while ignoring the obvious. You have bought into feminism and it shows!

You still avoided the fact that this forum is 90% men and that men dominate the hard sciences. Apparently, wherever you live a lot of men are gelded.
 castraphe
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 107
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 9:33:54 PM
You're ignoring the obvious fact that men have held political domination over women, you're pretending as though it never happened, when it's true. Your misogynistic bias shows through very blatantly. I am just telling you my experience, I said I always found math easy at school and that makes me a feminist? Whatever. If you actually care about hard facts and objectivity then stick to them instead of being totally disrespectful and chauvinistic. It's not my fault you have issues with feminism. Get over it. Start showing a balanced perspective, instead of blowing the possibility of a slight biological difference into a huge social rant against people who disagree with you.
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 108
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 9:46:36 PM
@ nevaagin and castraphe

Props to you both...excellent posts.


Women just plain aren't wired the same way men are.


Most people haven't said that they were.


check out the other posts in this science and philosophy forum and count how many men post here on various topics as opposed to women.


I agree. It couldn't possibly have to do with the...ahem...I cannot even finish this sentence with a straight face...


Let's put that against the millions of male inventors/scientists that didn't let their work kill them.


Do so, and work the ratio...


The fact that women are even trying to make the argument proves the lack of logic.


The fact that you say:


Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....


Displays your lack of logic in this debate. (Read...you are coming from a place of emotionalism. It happens to everyone...)


Sure, you can find women in these fields, but many are there to fulfill quotas and like I said there are always exceptions.


Suuuurrreee...I can't even go there. Too easy...


Sure, because of feminism there are a lot more sissified men who do just that, but that isn't the norm.


Thump your chest and we shall call you "HE-MAN"!

Your logic is still flawed...
 castraphe
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 109
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:03:18 PM
From the American Mathematical Society - July 2005

The comments of Harvard University president Lawrence Summers have brought renewed attention to the participation of women in mathematics and science. A new study to be released on July 6 offers data showing that women are participating in mathematics in greater numbers than ever before.

The study, carried out by the American Mathematical Society in cooperation with three other national organizations, shows that women received close to one-third of all doctorates that were granted in the mathematical sciences in the U.S. during the academic year 2003-2004, the most recent year for which data are available. A total of 333 women received mathematical sciences PhDs that year, the largest number ever recorded since the AMS began gathering statistics on women PhDs more than 30 years ago.

These numbers reflect a longstanding trend of increasing participation by women in the mathematical sciences. The percentage of women receiving PhDs in the field has risen steadily, from around 15 percent in the early 1980s, to the low 20-percent range in the early 1990s, to around 30 percent in recent years.

What is more, women are excelling in the top mathematics departments in the nation. Using rankings published by the National Research Council, the study aggregates data from the 48 top mathematics departments. Women received 25 percent of all doctorates granted by these departments in 2003-2004, up from 21 percent the previous year.

There are other signs that women are making gains in mathematics. Since the early 1990s, women have been receiving around 45 percent of all bachelor's degrees in the subject. Recent years have seen substantial strides by female students in activities such as the Mathematical Olympiad, which is a highly challenging competition for high school students, and the Putnam Competition, which is aimed at undergraduate mathematics majors. In previous years, the high scorers in these competitions were all male.


There's a nice logical factual article for you. tbuddha you should know better than to rely on anecdotal evidence, how unscientific of you. You also have not been giving any proof of showing that the differences in women's interest in these subjects is biological as opposed to social. Repeating "it's obvious! You're all brainwashed by feminism!" is hardly a valid argument. The very fact that you are so afraid of feminism shows you must give some credence to social change having an effect on individuals - why else would you say the men in my area are gelded? I gave you an opportunity to agree that perhaps women are better at language, which is the flip side of saying men are better at maths. Maybe the guys in the regular English program were the ones doing well in math ... I'll never know the truth of my own anecdote.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 110
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:05:06 PM
Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 111
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:36:47 PM

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions.


Are you seriously trying to state that yours are more than that?
 castraphe
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 112
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 11:03:04 PM

How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Are you incapable of reading? That article covers all the higher math programs in the entire USA. That is not one or two. Why do you keep harking back to logic when you clearly aren't even using it? You're being completely hypocritical.


I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.

Hahahaa - are you serious? Can you read your post and show ANY facts except anecdotes, and that more men are on this forum that proves your point? The burden of proof is on YOU, and you have shown NONE. I just quoted an actual thorough study by mathematical institutions, and you completely ignored it. The fact that you're doing the same thing that you're criticizing and that you can't figure THAT out really does make it look like you were just making fun of yourself.
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 113
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 4:49:30 AM

...probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified).

Ok, let's assume for a sec that all that is true. Then the questions become why are females so susceptible to all these forces (i.e., why do they give up so easily?), and why do these forces exist and persist in the first place, and who's doing it, and why?

I'd say such hypothetical forces are invisible because at least for some 30 years or so pretty much all the "environmental and cultural" messages have been along the lines of "Girls can do ANYTHING!" (including math/science), there have been special scholarships and other official/institutional incentives specifically designed to get them into the field, etc., etc., and yet it's still a big public issue as to why they're freely choosing to do other things. Like, how can we coddle them even more?

If anything, the overt cultural message has been negative to boys -- that he'll be considered "weird", a dweeby nerd/geek that girls won't want to date cause they'll not find him "MANLY" and that the jocks will pick on and make fun of. Just think of how often trekkies, or those into gaming/anime, are stereotyped as socially inept losers who still live with their parents (invariably in the basement) and couldn't get a date to save their lives. It's fifteen or so years old now, but there used to be a joke told by women about how they wouldn't date Bill Gates even if he was a billionaire... I mean, how much more sissified can the portrayal be? Sheesh, there's even a whole major network primetime TV sit-com devoted to this very notion and the perpetuation of such stereotypes.

Yet the guys seem to persist with their interests in spite of all this constant social disapproval, yet the girls switch to being art history majors at the merest hint that maybe they're not "supposed" to do math or science?

It's a pretty lame explanation which doesn't bear much scrutiny IMO.
 castraphe
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 114
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 10:43:55 AM

...probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified).


The thing is many fields get balanced out by women based on how close they are to previous stereotypes - when women start taking "traditional" male jobs it happens in the way you would expect, slowly according to what they're expected into areas they're less expected. Attitudes don't change all at once. Biology and medicine sees a greater percentage of women, but that's because it's less of a stretch from what previous generations of women were doing. The question has to do with abstract, mathematical sciences, and it is like the farthest reaches of a world that was previously denied women, so of course it would take longer to catch up. There are so many options when pursuing academics or higher education that those forces that might encourage women to get into a more practical, more social area of study siphons off more before they get lost in the abstraction of pure mathematics. The fear of isolation in a male-dominated world, and the isolation of maths from life, until more and more of them decide to go down that road. The fact that there are more and more means this is happening.

Since I was in the art world I DID find it interesting that fibre arts is still very female dominated - and the odd thing about this is that there is a great deal of math in fibre, specifically weaving. My weaving instructor had a very interesting story to tell about taking a computer programming course a couple decades ago, which was almost entirely male. She had a VERY difficult time in this class, and not because of the material, but because of the attitude towards a hippy lady taking this course. She was mocked and belittled - and went on to ace the class. She clearly had a very negative experience due to the social factor, and not her ability. The kinds of equations and patterns that can be done with weaving boggles my mind, and it is all math.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 115
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 7:48:36 PM
To compact on my own arguments on this subject, I found out that several administrators in my company used to work in the lab. None of them got their master's degrees and moved into admin work specifically. When I asked why they stopped going to school and why they got out of the lab they informed me it's because they didn't want to waste the degree because they wanted to be full-time mothers. They say they will not go back into the lab because the desire to discover is too great, and it is more important to raise their children.


Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.


Your interpretation of the data is lacking logic, and the fact that you can't understand that only proves my point.
 StevieCashmere
Joined: 4/22/2009
Msg: 116
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 4:07:07 PM
Parenting?!?!
~sc~
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 117
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 6:33:25 PM
^^^^

Horribly crappy parents. Scientist/mathematician.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 118
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 4:24:22 AM
I worked as a school council volunteer primarily directing fundraising initiatives for several years at my son's school. When he was in Gr. 8, and in his final year there, I developed a lunch hour brown bag kind of program for girls in Gr. 7 & 8 girls to come in and have a rather informal 'chat' around science and math and options with women who had careers in science, math, medical or engineering fields. I wanted to do this because during the previous year some of the standardized tests were revealing some drops in achievement for girls in this area, and doing this seemed like something positive.

These lunches were never that well attended....and it was hard to get more of the girls interested...and to give up some of their 'outside the school'...lunch time. The girls that showed up however were always clearly keen, and the speakers were always so impressed with the level of interest from them. The program had a lot of support by parents...but it seemed hard for some of them to translate that to their girls.

I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.

As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science. My parents gave me the 'out' in Gr. 11---and this is something I still resent them for doing. When I asked them about it much later, they said they'd figure I'd get married and wouldn't need it....I still believe if it had been one of my brothers that had struggled, they would have found a way to get him through it...(tutors)

What's funny is that I've met versions of my story several times in my life in several women that I know--their parents like my own giving the girl in family a pass on the 'hard stuff'...My dad who is now retired worked in the medical field...I've always been a bit fascinated by his work but was limited by choices that were made in high school as to what direction and path I could follow. Still interested...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 119
view profile
History
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 5:30:52 AM
A dear friend of mine was recently drummed out of the Anthropology department because she would not play by the rules of the good old boy network. It was not sufficient for them to merely ensure she was denied tenure, but they had to go on to manufacture all sorts of false charges to destroy her career. Her sin in there eyes, was that she would not submit to sexual harrassment and exposed it.

I don't buy the biological arguments being made here by the guys. It is a boys world in the math and sciences and there is a "no gurls allowed" attitude, or if allowed, only at a lower and subservient level.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/09/19/report_finds_bias_keeping_women_out_of_science_jobs/
"``Compared with men, women faculty members are generally paid less and promoted more slowly, receive fewer honors, and hold fewer leadership positions," the Academies said in a statement. ``These discrepancies do not appear to be based on productivity, the significance of their work, or any other performance measures."
Female minorities fare the worst, the study found.
``We found no significant biological differences between men and women in science, engineering, and mathematics that could account for the lower representation of women in academic faculty and scientific leadership positions," said Donna Shalala, president of the University of Miami and head of the committee that wrote the report.

The study was compiled by all the National Academies -- the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine -- The institutions advise the federal government.

``It is not a lack of talent but an unintended bias . . . that is locking women out," Shalala, a former secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services, said at a briefing.
 whatIlikeaboutyou
Joined: 3/21/2009
Msg: 120
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 7:35:20 AM
There have been advances in women entering fields that were previously closed to them, but if you think that prejudice and stereotypes still don't exist, you are wrong. And the advances are much more recent that you think.


When the fourth top job in the company I work for was vacant, a group of senior managers were out drinking after work talking about who would get the job. One of the applicants was a woman. One of the men said "She'll never get it, she's a chick".

He wasn't sympathizing. He was gloating.

Nobody said a word. The next day I was called to a meeting with her and she announced she would no longer be the sponsor for one of my projects as she had got the job.

I took great delight in telling him and the other guys about her appointment.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 121
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 7:35:42 AM

As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science.


This is another reason why people in general end up quitting school before ever becoming a scientist. Many people don't realize that science is mathematics. You cannot be a scientist without understanding and using most mathematical theories. I use algebra and differential calculus on a daily basis, and I'm fairly low on the scientific totem pole in biochemistry.


I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.


This is true, to a point. I attended several different K-12 schools, and being popular depended upon a certain level of academics at several of them. I still was the only girl in my AP calculus class, and the only "non-social-outcast" in AP Chemistry. There were quite a few girls in my AP Biology class. When I got to college, women started out as plentiful in the lower-level science courses, and all the ones who couldn't get the math changed majors from biochemistry to a more general science degree or changed to med students. I don't know how much mathematics a doctor needs to use on a daily basis, but my assumption is that it's a lot less than I have to use. Then, many of the ones who did get it, dropped out because they got pregnant and wanted to put their kids first and be a mom. Many of the ones who finished their degrees don't work in the field because they are moms.

I really don't think it's so horrible. Children need their parents. If you plan on having children, it's really worth it to wait to get into your field until you are comfortable with your child's level of independence in school. If you stick to a plan, you can keep your mind honed in current science practice and your mathematical skills, so when you return to your field you aren't behind.

For a woman who wants kids, it really should be degree -> entry-level work -> kids -> return to work.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 122
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 1:00:14 PM

I'm sorry, but jealousy is not gender specific. If it were limited to women, then you wouldn't see so many cases of a boyfriend or husband killing his girlfriend or wife because she's left him for another man.


It depends on the source of jealousy. Women tend to be jealous of each other for subconscious reasons, and can be very vicious and catty. Is this the case of men?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 123
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 3:37:29 PM

Heteroic: I do agree, too, that some women can be catty. Men tend to be straightforward and sometimes rude when they don't agree with each other. In some ways I'm jealous of that trait.


Now that I think about it, I don't know many men that are calculating and passive-aggressive either. lol
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 124
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 8:33:27 PM

...you haven't met enough men...lol


I assure that is not true!

1/4 women whose partner informs them that they do not want children believes, "I know him better, he wants children," and will deceive them into parenthood.

How many men will do this? There are some, I know that, but my education guess is more like 10/100 at most.
 whatIlikeaboutyou
Joined: 3/21/2009
Msg: 125
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/6/2009 10:41:52 AM
females of any age are less likely to flout social norms than guys are.


Women haven't flouted social norms? Then what was\is the women's emancipation movement then?

Maybe you are confusing being a testosterone driven egotistical antagonist troublemaker with being assertive.
 whatIlikeaboutyou
Joined: 3/21/2009
Msg: 126
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/6/2009 10:53:58 AM

I don't go around arguing that I can have babies, and woman are about as good at math as I am at getting pregnant.


So are you saying that we are equally valuable after all? Wow. Never thought I'd hear that from you lol.

Actually I don't think algebra is nearly as important as giving life. After all, every single mathematician and beneficiary of math was birthed first by a woman but hey that's just a side issue right?
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?