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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?      Home login  
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 techgirl27
Joined: 9/5/2005
Msg: 62
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?Page 7 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
I'm about to be one of them. In fact I'm having to brush up on my math this weekend for a qual. this coming week. Got into grad school for a computer science program. Maybe I'll be able to start shooting at the glass ceiling pretty soon? The generation ahead of me is full of looming retirements.........
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 63
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/29/2009 3:44:13 PM
Diva, I missed the qutotation marks. The point is there are women in science. If not what we consider tradtionally science. I would also, state that there is no inate ablity of either gender to preform mathmatical calcuations.

I'm on a borrow computer so it may be a bit till I can respond further.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 65
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:25:54 PM
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....

It blows my mind how propagandized people are today. Women just plain aren't wired the same way men are. It's as if people think our only differences are our genitalia. I can prove you all wrong right now - check out the other posts in this science and philosophy forum and count how many men post here on various topics as opposed to women.

In general, women aren't as good at making logical decisions. I can pull out some rare exceptions to any rule. I mean how many times are people gonna use Marie Curie? The lady who understood radiation so much she died from it? Let's put that against the millions of male inventors/scientists that didn't let their work kill them. The fact that women are even trying to make the argument proves the lack of logic. It doesn't take a study. Just go to any workplace where they are using hard science and count people of each gender. Shop for any kind of engineer and you are sure to talking to a bunch of men. Sure, you can find women in these fields, but many are there to fulfill quotas and like I said there are always exceptions.

It's like asking why there aren't more men into shopping for sexy underwear. Sure, because of feminism there are a lot more sissified men who do just that, but that isn't the norm.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 66
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:59:29 PM
Sure, sure...and you couldn't debate even one issue that I brought up. You gave a couple exceptions you looked up on wikipedia or probably googled "women science". LOL

Again, do your own study. Look at how many women post in the science/philosophy forum as compared to men.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 67
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 9:23:18 PM
I say "blah blah blah" because you state opinions as fact, while ignoring the obvious. You have bought into feminism and it shows!

You still avoided the fact that this forum is 90% men and that men dominate the hard sciences. Apparently, wherever you live a lot of men are gelded.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 68
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:05:06 PM
Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 69
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 4:49:30 AM

...probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified).

Ok, let's assume for a sec that all that is true. Then the questions become why are females so susceptible to all these forces (i.e., why do they give up so easily?), and why do these forces exist and persist in the first place, and who's doing it, and why?

I'd say such hypothetical forces are invisible because at least for some 30 years or so pretty much all the "environmental and cultural" messages have been along the lines of "Girls can do ANYTHING!" (including math/science), there have been special scholarships and other official/institutional incentives specifically designed to get them into the field, etc., etc., and yet it's still a big public issue as to why they're freely choosing to do other things. Like, how can we coddle them even more?

If anything, the overt cultural message has been negative to boys -- that he'll be considered "weird", a dweeby nerd/geek that girls won't want to date cause they'll not find him "MANLY" and that the jocks will pick on and make fun of. Just think of how often trekkies, or those into gaming/anime, are stereotyped as socially inept losers who still live with their parents (invariably in the basement) and couldn't get a date to save their lives. It's fifteen or so years old now, but there used to be a joke told by women about how they wouldn't date Bill Gates even if he was a billionaire... I mean, how much more sissified can the portrayal be? Sheesh, there's even a whole major network primetime TV sit-com devoted to this very notion and the perpetuation of such stereotypes.

Yet the guys seem to persist with their interests in spite of all this constant social disapproval, yet the girls switch to being art history majors at the merest hint that maybe they're not "supposed" to do math or science?

It's a pretty lame explanation which doesn't bear much scrutiny IMO.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 70
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 7:48:36 PM
To compact on my own arguments on this subject, I found out that several administrators in my company used to work in the lab. None of them got their master's degrees and moved into admin work specifically. When I asked why they stopped going to school and why they got out of the lab they informed me it's because they didn't want to waste the degree because they wanted to be full-time mothers. They say they will not go back into the lab because the desire to discover is too great, and it is more important to raise their children.


Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.

Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.

I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.


Your interpretation of the data is lacking logic, and the fact that you can't understand that only proves my point.
 StevieCashmere
Joined: 4/22/2009
Msg: 71
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 4:07:07 PM
Parenting?!?!
~sc~
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 72
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 6:33:25 PM
^^^^

Horribly crappy parents. Scientist/mathematician.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 73
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 4:24:22 AM
I worked as a school council volunteer primarily directing fundraising initiatives for several years at my son's school. When he was in Gr. 8, and in his final year there, I developed a lunch hour brown bag kind of program for girls in Gr. 7 & 8 girls to come in and have a rather informal 'chat' around science and math and options with women who had careers in science, math, medical or engineering fields. I wanted to do this because during the previous year some of the standardized tests were revealing some drops in achievement for girls in this area, and doing this seemed like something positive.

These lunches were never that well attended....and it was hard to get more of the girls interested...and to give up some of their 'outside the school'...lunch time. The girls that showed up however were always clearly keen, and the speakers were always so impressed with the level of interest from them. The program had a lot of support by parents...but it seemed hard for some of them to translate that to their girls.

I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.

As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science. My parents gave me the 'out' in Gr. 11---and this is something I still resent them for doing. When I asked them about it much later, they said they'd figure I'd get married and wouldn't need it....I still believe if it had been one of my brothers that had struggled, they would have found a way to get him through it...(tutors)

What's funny is that I've met versions of my story several times in my life in several women that I know--their parents like my own giving the girl in family a pass on the 'hard stuff'...My dad who is now retired worked in the medical field...I've always been a bit fascinated by his work but was limited by choices that were made in high school as to what direction and path I could follow. Still interested...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 74
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 5:30:52 AM
A dear friend of mine was recently drummed out of the Anthropology department because she would not play by the rules of the good old boy network. It was not sufficient for them to merely ensure she was denied tenure, but they had to go on to manufacture all sorts of false charges to destroy her career. Her sin in there eyes, was that she would not submit to sexual harrassment and exposed it.

I don't buy the biological arguments being made here by the guys. It is a boys world in the math and sciences and there is a "no gurls allowed" attitude, or if allowed, only at a lower and subservient level.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/09/19/report_finds_bias_keeping_women_out_of_science_jobs/
"``Compared with men, women faculty members are generally paid less and promoted more slowly, receive fewer honors, and hold fewer leadership positions," the Academies said in a statement. ``These discrepancies do not appear to be based on productivity, the significance of their work, or any other performance measures."
Female minorities fare the worst, the study found.
``We found no significant biological differences between men and women in science, engineering, and mathematics that could account for the lower representation of women in academic faculty and scientific leadership positions," said Donna Shalala, president of the University of Miami and head of the committee that wrote the report.

The study was compiled by all the National Academies -- the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine -- The institutions advise the federal government.

``It is not a lack of talent but an unintended bias . . . that is locking women out," Shalala, a former secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services, said at a briefing.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 75
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 7:35:42 AM

As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science.


This is another reason why people in general end up quitting school before ever becoming a scientist. Many people don't realize that science is mathematics. You cannot be a scientist without understanding and using most mathematical theories. I use algebra and differential calculus on a daily basis, and I'm fairly low on the scientific totem pole in biochemistry.


I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.


This is true, to a point. I attended several different K-12 schools, and being popular depended upon a certain level of academics at several of them. I still was the only girl in my AP calculus class, and the only "non-social-outcast" in AP Chemistry. There were quite a few girls in my AP Biology class. When I got to college, women started out as plentiful in the lower-level science courses, and all the ones who couldn't get the math changed majors from biochemistry to a more general science degree or changed to med students. I don't know how much mathematics a doctor needs to use on a daily basis, but my assumption is that it's a lot less than I have to use. Then, many of the ones who did get it, dropped out because they got pregnant and wanted to put their kids first and be a mom. Many of the ones who finished their degrees don't work in the field because they are moms.

I really don't think it's so horrible. Children need their parents. If you plan on having children, it's really worth it to wait to get into your field until you are comfortable with your child's level of independence in school. If you stick to a plan, you can keep your mind honed in current science practice and your mathematical skills, so when you return to your field you aren't behind.

For a woman who wants kids, it really should be degree -> entry-level work -> kids -> return to work.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 76
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 1:00:14 PM

I'm sorry, but jealousy is not gender specific. If it were limited to women, then you wouldn't see so many cases of a boyfriend or husband killing his girlfriend or wife because she's left him for another man.


It depends on the source of jealousy. Women tend to be jealous of each other for subconscious reasons, and can be very vicious and catty. Is this the case of men?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 77
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 3:37:29 PM

Heteroic: I do agree, too, that some women can be catty. Men tend to be straightforward and sometimes rude when they don't agree with each other. In some ways I'm jealous of that trait.


Now that I think about it, I don't know many men that are calculating and passive-aggressive either. lol
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 78
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 8:33:27 PM

...you haven't met enough men...lol


I assure that is not true!

1/4 women whose partner informs them that they do not want children believes, "I know him better, he wants children," and will deceive them into parenthood.

How many men will do this? There are some, I know that, but my education guess is more like 10/100 at most.
 Martin D Martian
Joined: 10/17/2009
Msg: 79
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:30:41 AM
How do you know. Did you count them ? I remember having more women math teachers in school. So,I always thought that women were somehow better at Mathematics. I just remembered a math problem; "A boos at a tray factory tells you he wants you to design a tray double the size of the existing tray. Prove why you would need 8 times more material ? " My aswer to this is; 2^3. 2 to the power of 3 dimensions. 2*2*2 = 8. You need more than just double the material.Because,the tray occupies 3 dimensional space. Agree ?
Anyway, I once read about Friedrich Gauss in Scientific American Presents;Mathematics; In Germany. A teacher asked her child students what is the sum of all the numbers between and and 100. Including 1 & 100 ? She thought it would keep them busy for a while so that she could do something else. Friedrich yelled out the answer right away.
If it wasn't for her asking/pondering the question. We might not have the full solution to this day. So,it seems that she was interested in knowing the right answer. So,she was involved in math.
 ExitingTheStage
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 80
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 7/28/2012 12:33:07 AM
Because stereotypes exist for a reason?
 onlydateIF
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 81
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/11/2012 7:41:17 PM
because they get pushed down and out by some men who don't like them there is part of the reason. They are also more encouraged to pursue certain fields in school, though this is changing quite a bit.
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 82
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/21/2012 9:26:28 PM
I see that this old thread has been reborn!

Having a Math and Computer Science degree myself, I guess I can answer this.

When I went to U of Waterloo for my Math degree (many years ago) I was a minority .... there were mostly males .... and mostly Asians.
So, being a female, I was a minority, from a gender perspective, and from a nationality perspective.
I am very used to working and discussing with mostly males.

These days women are not as much a minority in maths and sciences as they were then, but the numbers are not equal to males. Why? There have been many studies done, and many theories as have been noted on this thread.

There are more women in the science fields than in the math fields, although sometimes you cannot separate the math from the science since they are intertwined together.

My observations, especially now that I am teaching high school (college part-time):
1. Historically, culture and stereotypes governed the fact that not many women were accepted on par with men in the math and science fields.
2. Most elementary school teachers are female and not strong in math, so students don't get a good start in Math unless they have inert math skills. People with strong math skills do not tend to be elementary school teachers.
3. There are still many stereotypical views by people. If the parents are not strong in the maths and sciences, and the elementary school teachers are not, then their children tend not to be.
4. Most students who are strong in math and science have parents (at least one) who are strong in the maths and sciences. In the past the strong math and science person was the father. More and more mothers have these skills now.
5. Since historically the men were stronger in maths and sciences, then the male parents were the role models for their children in these disciplines.
6. If students don't get a good start in math in elementary school, they continue to struggle in high school. The foundations start in elementary school
7. Most administrators are not from the math and science disciplines, so they support the other subjects more than the maths and sciences - they only support the maths and sciences since the curriculum requires this, not from their own interest perspective

So, when people say things are changing .... they are ...... in theory there should be less stereotypes, etc ... however .... our society is now a society where if something takes too much effort, many people will not be interested. Since the maths and sciences takes too much effort for some people, they will not pursue these fields. ...

Also: Do you believe in the "dumbing down the population" conspiracy theory? Sometimes I wonder is this is happening. It is not only women who are not in the maths and sciences, as a whole, there are less people in the maths and sciences.

Note: Statistically there are more women going to universities and colleges .... but if you look at the numbers more closely .... they are mostly in the health related fields.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 83
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/21/2012 10:07:59 PM
My daughter told me today that she thought calculus was beautiful. She is very much further then me in academics.
She loves her school work notebook. She refuses to doodle because it takes away from the symmetry of the calculations.


Does that count?
 natural energy
Joined: 9/23/2006
Msg: 84
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/21/2012 10:19:03 PM
That is great to hear! .. and yes, it does count ..... although doodling is good .... I used to doodle in my history classes!
 Walley7
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 85
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/22/2012 5:01:02 AM
Let's be frank. Men and women, generally speaking, have different capacities. We're willing to admit the physical ones because they're unavoidable, but we do like to pretend the mental ones don't exist in the name of this bogus idea of 'equality'. I might note that we play the same game when comparing the races as well, lol.

Of course a lot of the problem is that we have attributed worth to these things. Being more capable at something does not mark one as being worth more than someone else unless YOU attach worth to that thing. That men are for instance perhaps more 'built' for these fields for example is not a value distinction until you people make it one.

The whole attempt for men and women and races to be the same is basically stupidity: nature does not breed quality, it never has and never will. Better to get over it lol.

Besides, a dog is as beautiful as a cat, or vice versa, so what is the point of trying to force them into the same mould? You only douse the individuality and turn it all into bland grey muck when you try to do that, which is what we have done and what we are doing. It's utterly tasteless.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 86
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Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/22/2012 11:41:24 AM

Also: Do you believe in the "dumbing down the population" conspiracy theory? Sometimes I wonder is this is happening. It is not only women who are not in the maths and sciences, as a whole, there are less people in the maths and sciences.


Yes.

My daughter tends to do very well in school. She prided herself in getting into honors and AP classes. This current semester the school 'changed the rules' for admissions into these classes. They opened them up to all students regardless of past grade performance or achievements or any other measurement for aptitude. It was done specifically to give everyone equal chance. My daughter is noticing the class now spends additional time dealing with the students that have a lack of interest, drive, and aptitude. Time that was spent moving forward is now spent remaining in place.

Anecdotal... of course. Surprising... no.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/05/ap-surges-as-tool-for-sch_0_n_1486369.html


The proportion of all tests taken last year earning the minimal score of 1 increased over that time, from 13 percent to 21 percent. At many schools, virtually no students pass.


Under the guise of 'equality' with the real motivation of receiving federal dollars the education system is destroying education. On purpose? Depends... Since the obvious motivation isn't in bringing out the best for society and for children and is in fact purposeful manipulation to keep ones job then yes it is on purpose. The unfortunate impacts of this is a dependence on government and a failing generation of students who now believe they are not smart enough to compete. Good job. What comes next? Human nature should make it pretty clear. Beer.

This would be what I would commonly refer to as the 'leftist' agenda. Basically under a false ideal of 'equality' destroying everything but feeling good about it until everyone has a dependence on government and is too stupid to realize what is occurring and we then eventually elect a tyrant and live in a totalitarian nation.

:) 1 and 1 really can equal three and I can prove it.
 justdeb1111
Joined: 8/12/2012
Msg: 87
Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/22/2012 9:23:15 PM
There are millions of women in math and science--they are called registered nurses. We keep your physicians out of court and you out of the morgue. Isn't it nice that there is a growing number of men becoming interested in that career.
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