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Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 25
What happened to the Wild West?Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)

I'd say that came about as a matter of societal conditioning. However, if what you say is generally true, how do you explain Kennesaw? Maybe given the chance and a few courses in responsible use, most people are quite capable of handling firearms safely.

I lived near Kennesaw about 15 years ago.
IMHO (and I think that people that reside in or near Atlanta might agree) Kennesaw is shielded from a lot the "big city" crime issues that plague Atlanta primarily because it has a suburban populace and it is distant from the high crime areas of Atlanta.

Most criminals (especially violent ones) are too lazy to commute to commit criminal acts and,, as such are primarily dangerous to people in their own neighborhoods and surrounding communities.

Kennesaw passed a law that for its citizenz (as of yet) has been mostly non-threatening,if somewhat ineefective.
According to people I know that still live in Marietta and Acworth, there's still plenty of property crime in Kennesaw.
And dealing w/ that w/ a firearm is,at best, a dubious proposition.
IMHO,Kennesaw is an abberation and nothing more.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 26
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/7/2009 11:47:27 AM

Kennesaw is shielded from a lot the "big city" crime issues that plague Atlanta primarily because it has a suburban populace and it is distant from the high crime areas of Atlanta.

Be that as it may, it doesn't explaing the precipitous DROP in crime in Kennesaw after the law mandating firearms came into place.

The "Wild West" was nowhere near as wild as the writers & producers of "westerns" would have us believe. To spite the fact that many settlements were "lawless" in today's terms, the people made their own law and lived by it. It seems then that all the fears of a lawless anarchy where people wouldn't know how to survive, or how to take care of themselves, or to abide by some sort of law, are only the result of programming by our modern governments, who want us to think that (and therefore propagate the myth of anarchy), so they can "take care of us" in the manner to which we have become accustomed (addicted?), presumably so they can continue to treat us like a resource (human resource - cattle?) that can be exploited for profit. The history of frontier settlements pretty well disproves that hypothesis of lawlessness & anarchy.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 27
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/7/2009 4:23:22 PM

why try and pull a gun on a guy who has a gun. shoot him then simply rob the dead body and add to your gun collection.

Well, for one thing, instead of armed robbery, the charge would now be 1st degree murder, which (presumably) carries a much stiffer sentence, if not the death penalty in some jurisdictions.

how many times do people get mad at each other and throw things and hit each other in a home. what if every gun had a gun or too so that janie, granny and little teddy all had ready access to a shootin iron?

People have been having arguments, getting mad and even killing one another over it since the dawn of time. Back when most every home had firearms in it, I don't seem to recall much fuss being made about all the gun homicides. But even if it were so, obviously if a gun isn't handy, a big butcher knife will do. What are we going to do; register steak knives as lethal weapons (lots of tax revenue there), or ban them altogether & make people eat with their hands? What's outlawed after that, blunt instruments & rocks?

some actually believe the possession of guns would allow them to resist a government gone mad

Isn't that the very reason why the founding fathers included the right to keep & bear arms in the Constitution? Was Jefferson a wingnut; or just prophetic?

if owning a gun would have solved the crime problem guns would be passed out long ago

It seems to have solved a lot of the crime problem in Kennesaw, so why aren't they passing similar laws all over the country? I suspect it's because the government doesn't want the people armed when they bring down some draconian laws.

they have something to gain. do you?

You bet I do! I stand to gain by fulfilling my duty to my fellow man in ensuring his rights remain intact. There can be no higher service to Man.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 29
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/7/2009 7:59:45 PM
Under the rules of scientific process your hypothesis is wild and unsupported by testable results of reproducible experimentation and observation in nature.

Under those rules, it is neither wild nor unsupported. It is also testable simply by altering the gun laws in other jurisdictions and observing the changes in the statistics of crime in those jurisdictions. I made the hypothesis long before I heard of Kennesaw, the stats of which only serve as scientific evidence that supports it, which made the "anomaly" of Kennesaw a prediction of the hypothesis and thus the so-called "anomaly" lends great credence to it, scientifically speaking.

countries with stricter gun control have lower murder rates.

That may be strictly correlational, though I suspect the rationale for your hypothesis is sound. However the risk/benefit ratio of gun laws must be considered. It is a simple fact that an unarmed population is at the mercy of its leadership; it may not find it so easy to rebel against tyranny. (Can you imagine what would have happened if the Thirteen Colonies had not been able to own guns by law? Would Hitler have come to power, or would there have been an insurrection at his 1st election? Would he have been able to waltz through Poland if every peasant along the way had been able to shoot back? Where did the guns come from for the Warsaw Ghetto rebellion? I'm pretty sure they were outlawed. Did that make the Jewish rebels criminals?)What about the assumption of competence? Is it unreasonable to think that people are innocent until proven guilty of incompetence? If so, is it not an infringement on their right to acquire & own anything they want so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights? How is owning a gun harming anyone else? If it is not, then is it not tyranny to deny someone that right? This paragraph is getting long, but it can be summed up with a question: Isn't a slight increase in gun accidents and the murder rate a relatively small price to pay to ensure the preservation of human rights and prevention of tyranny? After all, freedom has always been bought with blood; why are we so quick to give away, that which was bought at such a high price?
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 32
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 8:59:55 AM

I find it hard to believe that a public armed with pistols and rifles is going to fight off a tyrannical government armed with heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, attach helicopters, and various armored vehicles.

Would you deny people the right to own heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, attack helicopters & armored vehicles if they had the money to buy them? Why?
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 34
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 10:13:24 AM


Then you are a tyrant. I'm glad I don't live under your jurisdiction.
All your (extremely sensible) arguments notwithstanding, you have no right as another human being to prohibit anyone from having anything they can lay legitimate claim to, so long as it doesn't conflict with your right to be left to live your life in peace.

even light machine guns wouldn't fight off a tyrannical government.

That's why your founding fathers (I assume you're American) gave you the RIGHT to keep and bear arms (note that they didn't specify what kind). They knew that only by force of arms would the people stand a chance of keeping their government "honest."
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 36
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 11:19:27 AM

Our founding Fathers gave members of a well organized and trained militia the right to bear arms.

So are you doing your patriotic duty? Do you belong to one? Why not? Do you have so much faith that the crooks & liars in government are doing THEIR DUTY and defending the Constitution? It looks to me like they've passed a bunch of laws to "shred" it instead, which would make them a tyrannical and illegitimate regime not unlike the one the founding fathers wanted you to be armed to defend yourself against. So I'll ask again; are you doing your patriotic DUTY as an American and defending your Constitution against all enemies, both foreign AND DOMESTIC by belonging to a militia with sufficient arms to take on a tyrannical regime?
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 37
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 11:35:09 AM

So are you doing your patriotic duty? Do you belong to one? Why not? Do you have so much faith that the crooks & liars in government are doing THEIR DUTY and defending the Constitution?

Dude, you live in Winnipeg
If protecting the US Constitution is so important, why are you living in Canada?
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 39
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 1:45:52 PM

Have you done your patriotic duty and voted, contacted your representatives, organized peaceful groups and marches on Washington to protest our policies, put pressure on your elected officials to do the right thing? There are other and better ways of changing things than at the barrel of a gun. In fact, violence is usually not the best way.

In the first place, I'm not even an American, so the US constitution doesn't apply to me. I was only pointing out your duty as an American citizen to preserve & defend your constitution and that failure to do so will leave you a subject of the tyranny I see in the US today.

As for the rest of the stuff, I've been there, done that, and I agree with you that the barrel of a gun should always be the last alternative. Being a man of peace, I've opted for another way. Whereas the Canadian government has introduced tyrannical laws and follows policies abhorrent to my conscience, I've opted out of the corporation called Canada, so it's statutes no longer apply to me. I have become a sovereign man, no longer subject to a government that no longer represents me and that I no longer vote for. I have withdrawn my consent to allow them to govern me.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 41
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 2:09:59 PM
Well that' s not very patriotic.

One might have said that to a German who announced that he wasn't a subject of Hitler's government, or a Russian who disavowed any allegiance to Stalin. In that sense, I suppose you could say that the founding fathers of the United States weren't very patriotic to turn on their king like that too. At least I didn't start a war over it, I just revoked my consent to let them govern me. From MY point of view, any government that treats its citizens like a resource to be exploited for their own ends is not worthy of allegiance, but I guess that's just me.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 43
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/8/2009 3:45:04 PM

yet you chose to take a course of little action.

I wouldn't exactly call it a course of little action. I'm a member of a small, but growing society that attracts new members daily. What'll happen to the government when everyone they can govern eventually amounts to a minority of the population? What does Canada become then?...a land governed by the people, and for the people. The "old" government will have no claim to legitimacy (it doesn't now!) and like an old soldier should just fade away...or else get its act together, change its ways and start acting like the government of a truly free country so it can invite the disenchanted dissidents back into the fold. Either way, I figure we'll get better government if enough people do what I and some others are doing.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 46
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/9/2009 6:53:35 PM
Why not start a larger movement via the web, get more people to follow you, maybe you can accelerate the process?

Gee...Why didn't I think of that?
But let me make it clear, I don't want people to "follow" me. Much better to walk side by side into a better future as equals and allies.
We can ALL be leaders and the masters of our own destinies!
The movement exists and is getting larger all the time as more people turn away from a government that exploits them and join a society wherein the members support each other, conduct commerce with each other, care for each other, etc. as PEOPLE, not as "human resources."
Actually, there are already several such societies, but I expect them to grow into nations in the not too distant future and I expect them to join together (voluntarily of course) in a grand federation that I like to call the Brotherhood of Man. When that happens, the existing governments of the world will either have to join their former constituents under a new set of just laws, or evaporate into extinction as people leave them for a better vision of the future.

For all my ranting, I'm not the first guy to come up with this stuff; the idea isn't new. It would seem that most of the people on this site had no idea this was going on, but I'm happy to bring them word of it. It exists TODAY if they want to opt for it. (Doing so now will require some dedication, courage and adjustment, but being your own master trumps any of the difficulties in my book)

I see a decline in voter participation in the existing governments as a good thing; it means people are tired of the false promises and the change that never seems to occur. Many who no longer vote know they've been had and realize any vote would appear as a vote of support for the status quo. I'll be happiest when the voting turnout drops below 10%, because it will send a clear message to everyone that the people no longer consider that crew to be their government, and that the majority have probably opted for another, more viable alternative.
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 48
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/9/2009 10:05:39 PM
All it results in is a few hundred maybe thousand people pulling out of the process thinking the govt. is going to care.

I think the numbers are higher than that, and growing all the time, but be that as it may, even a hundred or a thousand people pulling out of the process is a hundred or a thousand people freed of their shackles and off the plantation. Is it not at least nice to know that option exists if you want it? Who cares what the government thinks?...certainly not me!
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 51
What happened to the Wild West?
Posted: 7/10/2009 8:27:44 AM
It takes positive action to effect change.

Agreed. That's what I do, by renouncing and denouncing a corrupted system of government.

Tyrannical governments like when people pull out of the process, that means the ones left participating are the ones more likely to go along with them.

That is the way it should be. Who am I to question the wisdom of free thinking people who enjoy slaving under tyranny? I would never deny them their right to be stupid if that's what they want, just so long as they respect my right to be smarter than that.

The best I can do is try to educate people to let them know what suckers they are being played for and try to show them a way off the plantation, but you know what they say about leading horses to water. I have to respect anyone's right to not be free if that's how they want to live.
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