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 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 84
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Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal AliensPage 6 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Canada doesn't have a huge 'illegal' immigration issue. Refugee claimants are quite legitimate (as per international law) until accepted or rejected residency. Refugees are not detained but put in public housing, given medical benefits, the kids go to school, etc. They only become 'illegal' once ordered out of the countey and then they tend to 'disappear' into society.

Most actual illegal immigrants here in Alberta are Americans. There's a big labour shortage and wages in construction for unskilled labour starts around $25 an hour or so...but no benefits as everything is under the table. The TVs in all the local bars are tuned to NFL football when the games are on. There are two brothers a couple of doors doen from me from Spokane...they have their own business must work 6 days a week, 12 hours doing roofing....they may be illegals but they are hardworking and filling a niche. In contrast, almost zero illegal Americans in the energy sector...too much at stake for companies not to do everything by the book...Workman's Compensation, Health and safety, etc. are on every thing like hawks.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 85
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Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/23/2012 10:46:52 AM
So when an illegal immigrant sends a few bucks back home it is a major crime because no taxes have been paid, but when a multi millionaire sends money to an offshore account to avoid millions in taxes you want to elect him president. The irony and hypocrisy, do you see it?


No--but once again I see silliness and a disdain for facts. No one but you has even suggested that sending money earned here out of the country is a crime, let alone a "major" one. If it were, B of A and other institutions wouldn't have been openly advertising their services for years to help people do it. The violation of law is in the alien's being in U.S. territory without permission.

Mr. Romney owes not one cent to any freeloader. Nor is there any reason to suggest has committed any crime. He or any other American has a perfect right to avoid as much tax as our laws allow. If Mr. Obama and his supporters think those laws are wrong, they can try to change them. Or, they can voluntarily pay more tax to make up any shortfall they think exists--the IRS will be more than happy to accept their donations.


It is clear that people who oppose this do not want to fix the problem, they just want to kick out the brown people.


That is only your opinion, not supported by any facts. What is clear is that people who try to accuse those who disagree with them of racism usually do it because they can't make any rational arguments.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 86
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/23/2012 2:09:30 PM

A.A.
Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the legislation being brought up in msg 121?
You're in Canada. It impacts Canadian immigrants.

It is a good idea to kick immigrants out who break the law, which is the same thing that the legislation in the US would do.
 Blah_User_Name
Joined: 8/27/2011
Msg: 87
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/23/2012 4:59:29 PM

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the legislation being brought up in msg 121?
You're in Canada. It impacts Canadian immigrants.


Canada has had the legislation which allows criminally active immigrants to be removed for quite a while. Even when I came to Canada in 2001, it was made very clear to all of us that our Permanent Residential status was dependent on maintaining our clean criminal records which were required as part of the application process and failure to do so could result in deportation of not just the guilty party but all members of the family who were party to the initial application. The main thing this new legislation has provided is the means to expedite existing laws once someone is convicted of criminal activity. As the link suggests, deportation is easily avoid by becoming a citizen (and meeting those requirements) or even more simply, not getting involved in illegal activities.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 88
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Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/23/2012 5:43:55 PM

Canada has had the legislation which allows criminally active immigrants to be removed for quite a while.


I am shocked. Aren't we all one--citizens of the Planet with human rights? What is it, I wonder, that Canadians imagine gives them any right to maintain their national sovereignty by discriminating against aliens? If what I'm always reading on this forum is any indication, they certainly don't recognize that Americans have any such right.

Crime can't be the real reason for this Canadian prejudice against aliens. Thirty percent of the inmates of federal prisons in this country are illegal aliens, including many murderers, rapists, and people who deal in drugs and slaves. The economies of whole states like Arizona and Californa are being wrecked a flood of millions of illegal aliens. And yet any American who dares call for even the most reasonable measure to enforce our immigration laws is routinely howled down as a bigot and accused of racism.

The Canadians who post here, at least, apparently think the U.S. should just let in as many aliens as want to enter, even if they loot the public treasury of hundreds of billions a year, and even if for many, breaking federal laws by entering is just the start of their lawbreaking here. But they apply a different standard where their own country is concerned, it seems. I suspect there's more than a little nativism and xenophobia among the Canadians who support these cruel, unfair laws their country has passed. Has all that cold frozen your hearts? Have you people no sense of humanity?
 Blah_User_Name
Joined: 8/27/2011
Msg: 89
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/23/2012 5:58:37 PM
Damn your posts are so full of waffle I always have to read them a few times to time and determine you point, on the occasional you make one. I often walk away from a thread you are contributing to, not because I think you are right but because I lose with will to live by the time I reach the end of your soap-boxing.

You appear to be comparing the situation of Canada enforcing the clearly defined terms when granting PR Status to a LEGAL alien to the issues the States are having with illegal aliens. (I understand that the enter thread isn't about that, I am referring to your above post). If I am misunderstanding your rant, would you re-state your point without all the filler.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 90
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Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 12:09:13 AM
oh dear now the idea that kicking illegal immigrants who commit a crime is
a good thing? (but only in canada)

it was not that long ago that there was a thread on illegals who commit crime in the
usa and the windbaggers were saying they should have full legal representation. and
the shermans were naughty naughty folk for not allowing a few million illegal criminals
to stay.

see those illegals who commit crime in canada? do they serve a jail sentence first before
deportation? if they do then the canadian taxpayer foots the bill i take it?

but then i read about this

a point was made earlier about folk just vanishing when refused right to stay. so
the person then becomes an illegal. now how do they survive? do they take a job
which pays under the legal rate and carrys no health and safety?

so there are three points of illegality just in that.

the roofers from america who work 6 days a week for 12 hour shifts, do you lot
think thats a good thing? what happened to trade unions who fought to earn a decent
wage without having to work every daylight hour working?

(although i say fair play to the geezers if they are taking cash in hand and not paying taxes)
one industry will not employ folk im told because of health and safety issues yet you
all seem to not care that building workers do not adhere to health and safety. because if they
did any work YOU lot got done in your house would have to rise about 15/20% to pay taxes and cover health and
safety directives.

surely all you red tape loving, new directive, equality shouters will not employ folk who are not
paying the going rate? who are not covered by health and safety? who work cash in hand and
do the treasurey out of tax and insurance money?

and how can LEGAL canadian builders compete with others who work illegally? i cannot imagine
the state turning a blind eye to canadians not paying taxes in the building trade. the state just loves
persecuting ordinary working folk who dont want to get taxed to the hilt to keep windbaggers in the
nice cushy non state jobs that most windbaggers have.

na i imagine all you fine upstanding citizens of the world would not exploit folk to save a few £'s
 Blah_User_Name
Joined: 8/27/2011
Msg: 91
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 2:44:06 AM
oh dear now the idea that kicking illegal immigrants who commit a crime is
a good thing? (but only in canada)


Not at all. I'll try and explain.

Immigrants who come to Canada LEGALLY, are given permission to do so by being granted a PR (Permanent Residency) Status. This is offered to immigrants who have LEGALLY applied to come and met the criteria for living here but it is subject to some conditions. Not many because in LEGALLY applying, many checks and verification happened before that permission to come is granted.

One of the few conditions is that if they break the law and are convicted of doing so (bearing in mind that everyone has the right to legal representation) that if that crime places the countries citizens at risk, then the conditions of the PR status are broken and therefore the offer to live here becomes null and void and therefore the criminally convicted offender can be deported.

The new legislation pointed out by a previous contributor shows that the means to deport a LEGAL immigrant who has been convicted of a crime after going through the court systems with legal representation, is being expedited to remove loop-holes of constant appeals against deportation which could and do take years.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 92
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Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 4:33:00 AM
Import

The point I am trying to make is that a previous poster who like yourself went through the proper channels stated that lots of would bef migrants who get refused leave to stay just vanish into canadian society.

These folk are now illegal because they were refused leave to stay.

Would you or any other migrant who now resides in canada and who went about it properly now be willing to call an amnesty to those illegals who were denied rthe right to stay but simply vanished?
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 93
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 5:05:56 AM
..Canada 850,00 or so illegal immigrants U.S. 15 to 20 million illegal immigrants....Maybe we should just send all the illegals in America to Canada...
 Blah_User_Name
Joined: 8/27/2011
Msg: 94
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 6:53:06 AM

Would you or any other migrant who now resides in canada and who went about it properly now be willing to call an amnesty to those illegals who were denied rthe right to stay but simply vanished?


Honestly - It depends. If someone who disappeared did so many years previously, has lived here, raised a family here, has been no trouble in terms of the law, is established in their community, works (yep, even under the table as we all need to feed our families), I really don't see the harm in letting them stay. I don't. That's a very different situation to someone who is located after a short time and who ran a criminal underground in their home country which would therefore have stopped them from applying legally but likely poses a risk to the citizens who live here. Of course I understand I have given the two extremes which are easier to decide upon. Like any situation where human beings are involved and it's very difficult to apply a blanket, one rule fits all, ruling for everyone.

Coming legally is difficult. It's expensive and I do think some of the conditions for application are harsh - i.e. there is a requirement for all to have medicals and although I can understand not wishing to drain the system with terminally ill high cost immigrants who might have a limited time to contribute to the economy, the fact that someone can have their application declined because their child is diabetic has always struck me as harsh.

I guess, if pushed, then yes, I would be willing to call an amnesty to those illegals as long as they don't have a criminal record which supports activities which pose a risk to the general public. I think you would be hard pushed to find anyone in any country of the world who would embrace the situation of convicted pedophiles or terrorists being able to bypass the system but hat's very different to the situation of essentially good people who are already here whose only 'crime' was not quite meeting the criteria to come legally based on not having the opportunities in their home land to gain the required levels of education etc. At the end of the day, everyone wants the best life they can provide for those they love, and not everyone is born into a country or situation where that is available.
 aussieblues
Joined: 11/22/2011
Msg: 95
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Posted: 8/24/2012 7:46:45 AM
(http://www.migrationinformation.org/datahub/comparative.cfm)

The horse has bolted mate. That's Aussie for crunch your numbers via the link above.
nb: I'm guessing that you are speaking of human beings. I just don't see the word 'people', being bandied about in your choice of language. That intrigues me more than immigration 'issues.'
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 96
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Posted: 8/24/2012 8:57:01 AM

Canada 850,00 or so illegal immigrants U.S. 15 to 20 million illegal immigrants....


No, try 1/20th of that

Canada has up 40.000 illegals according to the government and up to 45,000 accordig to some advocacy groups. Not any significant economic impact on society.

Illegals in Canada are more or less a non-issue except for those with meaningful criminal records. I've rarely ever heard a friend or colleague ever bring up the subject even here in right wing Alberta. We could use their labour. Especially more illegal Americans. Hopefully illegsls and their children are getting good education and health care so they have decent lives and thus are positive contributors to our society.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 97
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Posted: 8/24/2012 9:03:19 AM
import

.'' I think you would be hard pushed to find anyone in any country of the world who would embrace the situation of convicted pedophiles or terrorists being able to bypass the system ''

oh there IS a country somewhere in thew world where child rapists, terrorists and assorted vermin are
allowed to come to where THEIR 'human rights' supercede any rights that the folks of that country
have.

heres a wee clue, its in your username and its not import and nope its not from c'mon you know where it is?
where a failed asylum seeker who 'vanished' can drive a car and murder a bairn, not even have the decency to stop and try and help the bairn but then gets the windbag front getting it its 'human right' to stay in the uk. you will notice the bairn who was murdered or her family never even registered with the windbaggers

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/16/iraqi-killed-girl-remain-uk

or the plane hijackers who were granted leave to stay in the uk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4767463.stm

so your claim is not correct im afraid

but if you are more than happy to have failed migrants who broke the law and vanished then denied
the canadian government the revenue from taxes etc (which ordinary canucks have to pay) then who
am i to say otherwise?

i'll just keep paying for rapists, terrorists, hijackers, torturers, child molestors, drug dealers, killers,
people trafficers, taliban fighters who fought my countries troops and all the vermin in between and their
'human rights' lawyers from the windbag front who get rich as only windbags can by scamming and fleecing
the uk taxpayers.

you could always move back and help me and folk like me to keep the above vermin and their clients in
the lifestyle they are accustomed too if you fancy it then feel free
 Blah_User_Name
Joined: 8/27/2011
Msg: 98
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 9:58:34 AM
Despite your kind offer for a return Vlad, I'm going to have to decline - I do and will for some time continue to pay taxes both in the UK and here so it seems I already am helping you to keep them. In the circumstances you have details where the individual do pose a risk to citizens, I personally think they should be returned home but for many illegal citizens, they pose no risk and often their presence has contributed even if not through tax dollars.

Moving countries is not a simple decision. Even moving from the UK to Canada means that everything you think you know is wiped out and you start again. Basic daily tasks are so very different. It's a huge adjustment even when all the research and investigation has been undertaken and one thinks they are fully informed before hand. Indeed, many people who do emigrate, often return to their homeland even decades after the original move.

To my mind, to deal with all this and to spend your life looking over your shoulder for fear of being caught being here illegally and returned would mean that there was a significant reason for the average individual to take such a chance and live such a life. Whether they are running from a War zone or trying to give their own family a real chance at a free life where education is available, where their daughter are treated equally to their sons, it's a big risk for the average person - which many illegal immigrants are. Just average people wanting a chance to build a better life.

Certainly they may have entered the country illegally but really, if they want to better themselves, what options did they have ? Certainly if working under the table they aren't paying taxes, but that doesn't mean that they aren't contributing. Due to their need to fly under the radar, they aren't claiming benefits, aren't getting housing assistance and are staying out of legal trouble. In cases of such people, they likely would have failed to come legally due to the financial means required to apply, being denied the opportunity to achieve the required level of education to apply or having a minor child who happens to be labelled with a common health issue. In order to support themselves fully, they normally have a damn good work ethic. By granting these people the chance to become legal, the community then has the additional benefits for their tax dollars. I really don't see the harm in it in those situations which are the more common ones.

Regardless of whether immunity is offered to illegal entrants who meet certain conditions (i.e. not criminally active and no risk to the citizens) or not, illegal aliens who want more than the life they have, will always continue to come. I think when faced with bleak opportunities to change or a chance at a real life although with some risk of capture and return, there will always be those who take the chance. I just don't see the benefit of returning these people to their native lands when they have adjusted to life in their adopted country, when they aren't doing any harm, when they are hard working individual who just want a chance at life and when they would be more than willing to pay their dues in order to know they can remain.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 99
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Posted: 8/24/2012 10:32:53 AM
Import from UK

Agreed. Those who have never lived in another culture, legal or illegal, have no concept of the challenges. I came to Canada from a European culture and even this is life changing.


I'd rather illegals ,especially their children, feel like part of Canadian society. Authorities are not going 'to catch them all' and send them back to wherever. Some yes, most no. Integration into society is the best solution for all.

We have provisions for dealing with illegals who are criminals in their own country. I doubt if there are that many pedophiles, rapists. murderers, etc. and these types are not all going to walk into the nearest immigration office regardless of what immigration policies exist.

98% of illegals are the the brother of a legal immigrant from China, a guy from India on an expired student visa, an American working construction in Calgary.... no skin off of anyone's nose. They are people who have initiative in life. Good luck to them.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 100
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Posted: 8/24/2012 1:07:09 PM

98% of illegals are the the brother of a legal immigrant from China, a guy from India on an expired student visa, an American working construction in Calgary.... no skin off of anyone's nose.


That may be true of Canada, but it could hardly be further from the truth about illegal aliens in the U.S. And the original post was about them. The problems of illegal aliens are their own concern, and their governments'--not ours. The U.S. government has no authority whatever to force any state to become an international charity, and to the extent it does that, it is not acting legitimately.

States should ignore this administration's lawless immigration policy and act on their own to defend their sovereignty. This is a government of, by, and for the people. It is the American people who have the final say in how they govern themselves, and not any President or federal judge. All those who disrespect our laws and our Constitution, if they are determined to keep ruining the U.S., are going to get all the fight they want. And there are far fewer of them than there are Americans who love this country.

Nothing excuses an alien's knowing violation of U.S. immigration laws, and nothing excuses the failure of this government to do its duty by enforcing those laws--vigorously. Prosecute any who have violated other laws while they were illegally in the U.S., deport them all, and guarantee any who then dare to return a very long term in federal prison.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 101
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Posted: 8/24/2012 2:34:11 PM
Paul K:
The vast majority of people on Gods greeen earth live in abject poverty


Huh?.....far from any majority. You need to get out into the world more.

They are not as well off as Europeans but are far from living in abject poverty.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 102
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 3:53:55 PM
^^^^^^

This article is a bit dated, but when we are talking about the last 2,000 years, it is close enough.
Interesting to note that our Gov't only recognizes a person's income , they do not include the value of food stamps, welfare, healthcare, etc.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/first-world-wealth-and-third-world-poverty/

The World Outlook

It is useful to recall some basic facts about poverty in the past and present for the sake of gaining historical perspective. As twentieth-century Americans, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that poverty has been the normal lot of the vast majority of mankind for most of recorded history. As the economic writer Henry Hazlitt has observed, “the history of poverty is almost the history of mankind.”[3]

Poverty was the order of the day in the ancient world. Greek dwellings had no heat in winter, no adequate sanitary arrangements, and no washing facilities. The average Roman house was little better. Recurring famines took thousands of lives. In a famine in Rome in 436 B.C., thousands of starving people threw themselves into the Tiber River, so great was their desperation.[4]

General and widespread poverty was also characteristic of the middle ages. “Alternations between feasting and starvation, famines, crime, violence, scurvy, leprosy, typhoid, wars, pestilence and plague were part of medieval life to an extent we can hardly imagine today,” wrote historian E. Parmalee Prentice. The homes of typical medieval laborers were hovels. The walls were made of boards cemented with mud and leaves; there was no sewage or water supply. The entire family was crowded into a single room or perhaps two, together with the family’s animals.[5]

The Encyclopedia Britannica listed some thirty-one major famines from ancient times down through 1960. Famines are still common in the less developed countries. In modern socialist nations food shortages are still a recurring problem, as this recent headline attested: “Rationing of Sugar and Meat in Poland.”

The fact of poverty as the “normal” condition of the human race began to change with the rise of the Industrial Revolution in the mid-eighteenth century. Through the benefits of modern science and technology, in the Western industrial nations poverty has been changed from the normal condition of the majority to the abnormal condition of the shrinking minority. It is easy to forget what a dramatic change this transformation has meant for the average person. The less developed nations are responding to a “revolution of rising expectations” created by the advances of the Industrial Revolution.

Here in the United States substantial progress has been made in the effort to reduce poverty to a residual level. Warren Brookes, economic writer for the Boston Herald American, has called attention to the fact that “In spite of spiraling inflation, and energy costs, socio-economic data now shows that less than 7 percent of all Americans live below the U.S. poverty line, and even this 7 percent live better than 85 percent of the rest of the world’s population.” While it may be true that the U.S., with only 6 percent of the world’s population uses over a third of the world’s energy, Brookes points out that the critics usually fail to mention that the U.S. produces 40 percent of the world’s food, and supports nearly 80 percent of the world’s private charities.[6]

Dr. Michael J. Boskin, a professor of economics at Stanford University, has recently called attention to features of the government’s “poverty index” that tend to exaggerate the size of the problem. While the index is adjusted for inflation, family size and location, it excludes the actual cash value of transfer payments such as food stamps, subsidized housing, and medical care. “Even conservative estimates of the cash-equivalent value of these programs result in a startling discovery,” writes Prof. Boskin, “only about 3 percent of Americans live below the poverty line.”[7] If Boskin’s analysis is correct, then the “war on poverty” in America is a war that has practically been won.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 103
Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 4:01:57 PM

Education, health care, just for two examples WAY outstrip the meager contributions a person who works for minimum wage, is payed in cash, and pays no fed. taxes.

Once again you have failed to address the topic at hand.

For these people to qualify to stay they must be working above-board, thus anyone who is working for cash would be still subject to deportation.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 104
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Naturalized Citizenship For Illegal Aliens
Posted: 8/24/2012 7:48:04 PM

Huh?.....far from any majority. You need to get out into the world more.


Your condescension doesn't make your claim any more true. The majority of the six or seven billions of people on earth DO live in poverty, and even squalor. The whole continent of Africa has only a few bright spots where the standard of living is decent, and fewer yet where it's good. Parts of Asia are the same--for every Singapore or India or Taiwan or Iran there is a Bangladesh, or Afghanistan, or Cambodia, or Uzbekhistan. Central and South America is also riddled with poverty, and countries like Costa Rica and Brazil and Chile are more the exception than the rule.
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