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 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 1160
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EvolutionPage 46 of 64    (24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64)
Kardinal: I had to look back to figure out what my mention about the "momentum of evolution" was referring back to. I was responding to the idea that "our amegyla" was gradually shrinking, and that we might eventually lose the senses and emotions it seemed to provide. What I was getting at, is that a species doesn't continue to change because it's already changed in a certain way a little already, it changes because there is an survival/procreative advantage to the change. Thus our "reptile" characteristics (the whole reptile brain thing) wont be "lost," simply because some of them are gone already, that they are "leaking out" through some evolutionary hole in our species. If we change, it will be for the same general reasons we have changed before: because the CHANGED people (i.e. 'mutants') have a better procreation and survival rate than those who DO NOT show the change.
All those things you went to the trouble to write about really didn't have anything to do with what I was getting at. And I probably would consider the vast majority of what you described to be "environmental" factors, relative to what I was talking about. I apologize for the words "momentum of evolution," I couldn't think of a better description when I was writing that.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 1161
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/10/2011 8:27:46 PM

I can assure you that you are misinterpreting Gould.

He was not claiming that we can't know that evolution is a fact. He thought it was a fact and that anyone that thought otherwise was believing in falsity.



Misinterpretation, says you. Clearly he states that "we may never know" ; clearly he uses the words "remarkable" & "mystifying". Yes, he believes in evolution, just as some believe in God; some even believe the two are not mutually exclusive. So?
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1162
Evolution
Posted: 5/10/2011 9:07:54 PM
Oh..then just because crabby Krebby and all of the rest of you assign more knowledge and wisdom to the studies of the specialists who forgot that life is more about living than their astute so called pronouncements...we the rest ...should fold? Unless Jim and Stephen and rest ..define us as worthy. Don't think so. Kripes, life is more than any of you men alltogether will ever define or imagine and if you think you do...you are wrong. So...I agree with ohwhynot....be free to include the Devil, also. he haaaaa.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1163
Evolution
Posted: 5/10/2011 11:23:31 PM
Old men should also explore the realm of mercy. Hey ya Krebby. Nice post. Old men should also stop lecturing and accept that they are often cognizant but not very free.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 1164
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/11/2011 7:35:05 PM
K, Kardinal, let's break it down:


Gould took evolution to be a fact. Period. So you don't actually "agree" with him, since you've misinterpreted his position. But to be honest, I can't say I'm completely surprised, because a lot of Gould's writings have been misinterpreted by creationists as casting doubt on the veracity of evolution -- and Gould is partly to blame for this (a sentiment which is echoed by a number of evolutionary scientists).


I actually DO agree with the words I cited in reference to my being in agreement, ie, that we will never KNOW, scientifically. In any case, that Gould "took evolution to be a fact" is roughly the equivalent of that he believes in evolution. Perhaps it is you & those who "blame" Gould for misinterpretation who are actually misinterpreting. Not that it matters, as my point has little to do with proof of anything other than what is truth: some believe in God & some don't. It is a personal matter, in and of itself no indication of scientific knowledge, logic or intelligence.


If you're talking about god here, then that all depends, again, on how you characterize god.
Again, it depends on whether you're talking about evolution or whether you're talking about god.

Not accepting evolution can reflect a lack of one's reasoning ability, grasp of logic, intelligence, and so forth. But such factors are not a necessary condition for rejection. It could, for instance, simply stem from an ignorance of the incontrovertible evidence.


"Depends" being the operative word; a personal matter, choice, decision, conclusion. Not accepting that intelligent beings walk the earth who may have beliefs that differ from your own makes one not merely ignorant, but arrogant as well.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 1165
Evolution
Posted: 5/11/2011 9:17:01 PM

But although we may never know the actual events and specific selection pressures responsible for our brain power, we have no scientific reason to believe that evolution could not have fashioned our brain through natural selection.

This conclusion does not follow Gould's above quote:

I quite agree with Stephen Gould, evolutionary biologist from whom the above is derived; we will never know, scientifically. Evolution is, after all, a theory, and the only way we can BELIEVE in it is to ignore data which disproves it.

Your agreement is based on a misinterpretation (selective reading) of Gould's quote. Gould does NOT simply say, "We will never know, scientifically." Also, your conclusion about evolution is based upon false assumptions.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1166
Evolution
Posted: 5/11/2011 10:18:41 PM
Evolution: Men rule.
Evolution: Women get more exasperated.
Evolution: Men figure that their smart matters.
Evolution: Women become like men or try to curry favour with said perpetrators of bombs, resource stripping, war mongering, strigent and unkind social policies, misfits of the soul, unkind to a degree that demands correction...etc.
Evolution: Both sexes educated beyond belief do not connect the dots.
Evolution: The grizzly bear charges and bluffs the sleak body nazis in a cemetry in a beautiful town in British, Columbia.
Evolution: Thank something the wasps have deigned to join us and the ants begin their crawl. One more year, one more evolution...tens of thousands plugged in but not connecting the dots. Again...evolution in a nutshell....one step forward..how many back?? Oh excuse me, I should prostrate myself to the amazing advances and man talk. Yep.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1167
Evolution
Posted: 5/11/2011 10:20:07 PM
Evolution: Men rule.
Evolution: Women get more exasperated.
Evolution: Men figure that their smart matters.
Evolution: Women become like men or try to curry favour with said perpetrators of bombs, resource stripping, war mongering, strigent and unkind social policies, misfits of the soul, unkind to a degree that demands correction...etc.
Evolution: Both sexes educated beyond belief do not connect the dots.
Evolution: The grizzly bear charges and bluffs the sleak body nazis in a cemetry in a beautiful town in British, Columbia.
Evolution: Thank something the wasps have deigned to join us and the ants begin their crawl. One more year, one more evolution...tens of thousands plugged in but not connecting the dots. Again...evolution in a nutshell....one step forward..how many back?? Oh excuse me, I should prostrate myself to the amazing advances and man talk. Yep.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 1168
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/13/2011 4:31:10 AM
Hard to be sure what the issues are, though misogyny is implied. Nothing in the 60 to 70 post actually DOES have anything to do with evolution, though, so I'll let it pass unanswered in this thread.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 1169
Evolution
Posted: 5/13/2011 9:02:52 AM
It's funny how when I see "Last Post" was authored by certain people, I don't bother looking at the thread. If it's a poster I like, I click; if it's a poster I usually disagree with, I click. But some people's posts just provoke a "WTF?" - and are better left ignored. It's seven seconds of your life you'll never get back, and a lot more than that if you actually try to parse out some meaning.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1170
Evolution
Posted: 5/13/2011 9:11:01 PM
Evolution: men are fallible. Women are fallible. Promise is denied in the egocentricism that rules human nature.
Evolution: who created the atom bomb?
Evolution: who created Wal Mart?
Evolution: who never stopped to consider earth's resources finite?
Evolution: who considers Capitalism the only way to go?
Evolution: who denies the value of equality?
Evolution: who tantrums equally as well as women?
Evolution: why does the Universe wait patiently for both women and men to just friggen catch up?
Evolution: Why does the human race exist? Uhhh....
Evolution: Nothing finer than technological camera views of Mars. But let that child in the great and grand First World have their first taste of hunger...because well we are just meant to be here hungry and not very actualized. Ho. hum. Unless we got lucky. Christ that is so evolved. Congratulations on evolution.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1171
Evolution
Posted: 5/14/2011 12:28:25 AM
So did I Krebby...but why are children going hungry to school in the USA? Did you grow out of that, too?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 1172
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/14/2011 4:23:06 AM

Evolution: men are fallible. Women are fallible. Promise is denied in the egocentricism that rules human nature.

Yeah, so much for an all-knowing omnipotent and superwise creatorman. Looks like He bungled it?

Evolution: who created the atom bomb?

The gods?

Evolution: who created Wal Mart?

That's easy, gods again.

Evolution: who never stopped to consider earth's resources finite?

Those fool gods again I guess?

Evolution: who considers Capitalism the only way to go?

Capitalism God?

Evolution: who denies the value of equality?

Damn! Those gods overlooked some stuff hey?

Evolution: who tantrums equally as well as women?

Another easy one - histrionic women skygods.

Evolution: why does the Universe wait patiently for both women and men to just friggen catch up?

I guess it isn't in much of a hurry?

Evolution: Why does the human race exist? Uhhh....

I think I know this one... um... god did it?

Evolution: Nothing finer than technological camera views of Mars. But let that child in the great and grand First World have their first taste of hunger...because well we are just meant to be here hungry and not very actualized. Ho. hum. Unless we got lucky. Christ that is so evolved. Congratulations on evolution.

Why did He bother hey? Just to starve a whole lot of Third World children and drown hundreds of thousands more. With disease pestilences like Malaria, Cholera, and Leprosy for light relief.

Hallelujah.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 1173
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/15/2011 1:40:53 PM
Evolution: men are fallible. Women are fallible.



According to the Bible, so is God.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


how is that to be taken as fallible in creating a living human with absolute free choices?

we all do things that are precieved as noble, nessasary, etc, but still can, and often will grieve us deeply.

need examples?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 1174
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/15/2011 5:53:51 PM
All the more proof, that if there was a god, he was a 12 year old kid on holiday with parents, with a magnifying glass, playing with the ants of gaia during a picnic stop on their way across the galaxy. Splains the childish, jealous, vindictive, schizo, crazyarse of the olde testement.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 1175
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Evolution
Posted: 5/15/2011 6:16:21 PM
RE Msg: 2501 by Earthpuppy:
Splains the childish, jealous, vindictive, schizo, crazyarse of the olde testement.
Bear in mind, Earthpuppy, that a lot of people, who have read the actual text, and not just a translation of a translation, have found the text to say something entirely differently.

You might be interested to know, that it is common for those who were raised Xian, to be taught that the G-d of the Old Testament, was a vengeful, vicious, violent, evil G-d, and the G-d of the New Testament, was a nice, loving G-d.

Because Jews followed the OT, but not the NT, this led to many people thinking that Jews were followers of a vengeful, vicious, violent, evil G-d, while Xians were the followers of a nice, loving G-d. To put in terms that are closer to home, Jews were seen as followers of a G-d that resembled Charles Manson, while Xians were seen as followers of a G-d like Ghandi. It's not hard to see that people came to the conclusion that if you followed someone, you were going to be a lot like them. It's a direct result of this sort of view, that caused Westerners to see Jews as jealous, vindictive, violent, baby-killers, which led to thousands upon thousands of Jews to be burned alive, crucified, hung, and much more, in pretty much every century for the last 2000 years.

The irony is that Xians acknowledge that it is the same G-d.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1176
Evolution
Posted: 5/15/2011 7:36:27 PM
Free will is what counts.
The Bible is magnificent in so much of both the O.T. and N.T. Not many come close to the wisdom and infallibilty of the Bible's many profound and pungent quotes.
God is NOT your mommy or daddy. At all. Free will ultimately define what vision of God you choose to create. You cannot change anybody....and you will never in any evolutionary sense change the money mongerers, the power mongerers and the ultimately cynical and barren. You can only honour the quest for wisdom. As Aristotle said at the end of his life..."it is all like straw in my lap." Life is finally a creation of your personal vision of what is infallible. And that may involve....God. Yikes, here comes the opposition.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 1177
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/16/2011 8:42:43 AM
I'm going with the asumption that a perfect created human should have the complete freedom to choose anything, because anything less would have to include some form of robotic programing.
guess HE thought that would be a little yawn, yawn, boring and heartless.

this deal on earth and in other areas is a fight between good and evil, and yeah, someone is gonna lose, but its going to have to be played out, I guess.

my kids love me because they want to, I hope, [I don't give them money].

wouldn't feel as good if I was programed to do things.

sure, god could have created beings with a little less free will [how much less freewill would make it work to your satifaction?], differing amounts for different individuals, gets complicated.
kind of reminds me of zombies, with there arms sticking out in front, walking around.

I'll check this out, but will as usual form my own opinion, I seem to do that a lot.
http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm



earth puppy

why did god do that? [a bit of study may be needed]

Is it just me, or did the so called barbaric heathens in the old testament seem even more screwed up than we are today?

So...........what I am getting at is, how much more screwed up would this godless society be today if the human race wasn't purged a bit every now and then.
screwed up religiously too, old testament non god followers had plenty religions of there own makings.

I understand you are saying there is no god.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 1178
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History
Evolution
Posted: 5/16/2011 7:13:50 PM
aremeself...I don't know if there are any gods. I was just noting that there are particular gods that are friggin nuts, schizo, certifiably insane, and yet worshiped in a abusive relationship sort of way.

I had to abandon that sort of great spirit relationship decades ago to keep my sanity and save my soul. The "barbaric heathens" have always suffered under the censorship and selective reasoning of dominant religions and kingdoms. Most of my best friends and most ethical allies are "barbaric heathens", many ex ministers, ex priests, ex-nuns, ex-Jews, ex-Buddhists, and ex-athiests included. There is a reason why "none of the above" is the fastest growing religious affiliation in the word today. We evolved.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1179
Evolution
Posted: 5/17/2011 9:16:05 PM
You can also loose yourself in the forest and not see the trees. How about that for an evolutionary cautionary tale? Christians are like atheists. Wrong in the most fundamental respects. Tell me about something very hard to do....a way into the darkness that overwhelms the world in periodic cycles and a way out. And it ain't going to be about progress because progress rewards.... only rewards the singularly fortunate. Always. Life on balance is not evolutionary...it is one step forward...fifteen steps back. Why? Wellllll....the final joke is that all you gather is just dust in the wind and when you die...that bloody poor guy is far richer than you are. Life is a gift that is splendidly misused.
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 1180
Evolution
Posted: 5/17/2011 9:43:44 PM

Free will is what counts.
The Bible is magnificent in so much of both the O.T. and N.T. Not many come close to the wisdom and infallibilty of the Bible's many profound and pungent quotes.
God is NOT your mommy or daddy. At all. Free will ultimately define what vision of God you choose to create. You cannot change anybody....and you will never in any evolutionary sense change the money mongerers, the power mongerers and the ultimately cynical and barren. You can only honour the quest for wisdom. As Aristotle said at the end of his life..."it is all like straw in my lap." Life is finally a creation of your personal vision of what is infallible. And that may involve....God. Yikes, here comes the opposition.


And here is some opposition:

Free will is questionable, especially if you consider an ultimate being that is all-knowing all-powerful and omni-present. If a being such as that created existence must it also know what all of us will do and since it created us that way must it also know what we will do regardless of its own arbitrary rules? If you create a work of art, you can judge it as bad, but isn't it really your own fault? You made it didn't you? It's only a reflection of you after all!

Refutation #2: Yes, you can change other people. Physically, and emotionally... You can't expect to be able to make an impression on everyone... but you can... or so you may seem to be able to.

Refutation #3: No, life is not a creation of each of our personal versions of what is infallible. There is reality... and then there are our personal misunderstandings of reality. Some of us are closer to understanding reality... nobody really understands it completely... but some people are much more wrong than others... we are not all equally correct.

God might be your imaginary most correct being... but I don't think god is correctly defined as the being that most correctly understands reality... but more so the being that made reality...

I mean, relating to art again... An expert on art may well be able to describe another artist's work better than another artist himself...

and on that side of the coin... can't an expert on the existence and the universe and life maybe better explain it than god himself? Consider that?
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 1181
Evolution
Posted: 5/17/2011 10:04:22 PM
Let me add further though that without religion and god and a creator that there is not meaning to the abyss of science and the light of truth. The truth that can be seen is unsatisfying to the human psyche... and so most of us find a cave:

Humankind needs a cave to live life with meaning... unless they have philosophy. The problem is that in our society... philosophy is evil and religion is good... and relativized. This is because not everyone can grasp or live philosophically. Since we live in a mostly egalitarian and individualistic society, this is unacceptable.

As long as everyone is equally right, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist, everything is OK though. Correct and incorrect only matters as far as secular law is concerned... yet there is something cold and dead about secular law... and there is something unjust whenever any living religion is made law... This is our real problem, science doesn't satisfy our human needs for meaning.

While evolution does shatter some canon laws it doesn't refute that people require a meaning to their lives...
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1182
Evolution
Posted: 5/17/2011 10:50:06 PM
Free will is not complex. Caves have nothing to do with meaning. Meaning and free will surrenders to something other than mistaken drifts into separation and then becomes a celebration of differences. Religion is beside the point...its a necessity ...rather than a unifying principle. In the end a belief in God is more than less.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 1183
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History
Evolution.
Posted: 5/17/2011 11:18:17 PM
I realize this isn't directly on the point of evolutionary theory. But where did all the mass we know exists come from? Isn't it stretching things to think everything that exists inflated almost instantly from something far smaller than the point of a needle? And even if everything that exists *had* been concentrated in such a small space, wheat created IT? What is the prime mover, and how can it be explained?
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 1184
Evolution.
Posted: 5/17/2011 11:54:31 PM
Not yours krebby 2001. My undecided ( note the definition) mind tells me that yours is just as fallible. Agreed? Let me know. Inquisitive is not always correct. It can lead to a fatal confusion. Agreed? lol.
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