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 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 1292
Evolution. Page 51 of 64    (24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64)
Well, Krebby may not have intended to, but he inspired me to clean my fridge.

I'm sure that's some sort of evolutionary response. I was worried that there were lifeforms that might outcompete me in another week and I'd be homeless.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 1293
Evolution.
Posted: 9/11/2011 6:22:50 AM
I'm really not trying to be disrespectful here. But that whole circular logic thingie...I'm thinking that really only convinces peyote habitues. I haven't even had a cup of coffee yet. Way too early for a peyote button.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 1294
Evolution.
Posted: 9/11/2011 8:31:48 AM

Like someone points out that a donkey and horse look alike, therefore must have the same ancestors so does evolution and genesis.


What, now you're disputing biological evolution now? Wow! Well then, I'm guessing you're going to have a viable alternative for us, then? Can't wait!
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1295
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/11/2011 9:22:33 AM
What you say is non-contradicting, and there is no hole to poke in the argument. I can test it over and over again to prove its validity. But I dont want to believe it, I know i'll just call it circular logic and dismiss, then I can go on believing what I want.

And im the one that does understand science? If something is wrong science will rip it apart, regardless if its "circular logic". For science is observable, and existence is undenyable.

I can prove w/o a doubt that I exist. Even if im wrong about my existence, then I have to exist to be wrong, so therefore I do exist.

Its called an absolute truth, a never changing truth
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 1296
Evolution.
Posted: 9/11/2011 9:24:55 AM

the word God and Evolution are interchangable


No, they're not.


god (gd)
n.
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.


vs


ev·o·lu·tion (v-lshn, v-)
n.
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
2.a. The process of developing.
b. Gradual development.
3. Biology
a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
b. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.

4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements



So it is therefore impossible for the ONE to be some chemical or element, because to change the ONE you must have a seperate and different ONE, which is not possible. Therefore there has only been and always will be only ONE.


So....chemistry is impossible without god(s)? Really?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 1297
Evolution.
Posted: 9/11/2011 9:26:35 AM

I can prove w/o a doubt that I exist. Even if im wrong about my existence, then I have to exist to be wrong, so therefore I do exist.


Okay, so you have proof of your 'god' then. Can't wait!
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 1300
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/12/2011 12:47:50 AM

Actually why a panda has a thumb is a "how" question as it can be explained by a process - that of natural selection. Asking "why" in this regard imparts a search for meaning. "Why does a panda have a thumb?" asks what was the intent behind a panda having a thumb and/or what was its designated purpose.

Other than a process oriented understanding of the question ... science does not attempt to answer intent or the meaning behind why certain phenomena occur.

A Panda has a thumb (pad) rather than hooves for obvious reasons. The 'how', the 'why'. the 'meaning' and the 'intent' can all be explained by an examination of biological and anatomical pressures exerted by evolutionary forces.
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1301
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/14/2011 6:46:03 AM
you still havent answered where the bluprint comes from. How could eyes be constructed (gradual or spontaneous) w/o knowledge of eyes or how to build them?

who knew eyes could see? How could the idea of eyes be thought of w/o thought? How would something w/o eyes know that eyes would be beneficial.

Evolution w/o intelligence is based solely on chemical reactions by pure accident that led to what we see today.

Take it further than eyes, where did intelligence come from? How could intelligence come from non-intelligence? How did Hydrogen develop intelligence suddenly? How are we able to think, if there was a time when thinking didnt exist. If no one or no thing was thinking then how did thinking come to be?
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1302
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/14/2011 8:50:10 AM
The blueprint shows that why is not a question answered by evolution w/o Intelligence. there is no why, for the answer to why is always reason; something evolution does not have.

Here are these evolutionist again who cant even understand what they believe. Your're saying that evolution is driven by advantages. Advantages is a relative term that requires intelligence to interpret. You must have intelligence to say that wings are better for survival, or sexual reproduction is better, or eyes are better than no eyes.

Irregulator-- just keep mocking me and never come w/ an intellectual thought. You believe in Spontaneous Generation, and you have the nerve to mock anyone's scientific mind. You cant even explain what you believe so instead you resort to name calling, my 6 yr brother does the same thing. Only difference is, he's smart enough to understand that life can not come from non-life. that has never been observed! so how is it science?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 1303
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/14/2011 10:09:30 AM

So science is not observable? Anyone who has ever seen living material come from non-living material please speak up, so we can put this argument to rest.

Anyone who has seen a creator or an intelligent designer please speak up, so we can put this argument to rest.
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1304
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/14/2011 10:39:01 AM
so now we just delete post we dont like. classy!

the peppered moth was an admitted hoax? this is the stuff im talking about.

Just b/c an animal can adapt, has nothing to do w/ evolution. If im cold, i go get a jacket. An animal that changes its color always had the ability to change its color, it was in its DNA to be able too. Again if it was just evolution, where would the information on how to change color come from. It was already there, it just needed to be activated.

Another problem w/ your theory is homosexuality. How is this ever beneificial to a species? Species have to reproduce to survive. And the Elephant behind the curtain FREE WILL. The ability to choose.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 1305
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/14/2011 2:30:53 PM

Another problem w/ your theory is homosexuality. How is this ever beneificial to a species? Species have to reproduce to survive. And the Elephant behind the curtain FREE WILL. The ability to choose.


There are over 1500 animal species documented that exhibit homosexuality. Some occurs when overpopulation becomes an issue, some with Bonobos for instance, to maintain peace in the group, and yet others when male/female propulations are disproportionate. For the creationists/young earthers, it would have been a fabulous time for your god to cleanse the earth of this "evil" when Noah built his little inbred floating love nest.

Put too many rats in a box, monkeys on a rock or humans in a city and homosexuality naturally increases. It's nature...and evolution.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gay-animals-and-evolution
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1306
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 7:55:43 AM
So when evolutionist say explain this or explain that about how a Creator works, whats the difference?

Homosexuality is a population control? Really, whos keeping track of how many of a species there are or whos tallying how much food thers is and when it might run out? Is evolution a mathmatecian too?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 1307
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 10:15:23 AM
The question about "How is homosexuality beneficial to a species" demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of evolution. It shows the bias around a Creator.

Evolution never says that all change is good. Only Intelligent Design, or Creation myths and such claim that all is created in a perfect way. For life on this planet there are all sorts of aberrations and variations that do nothing to ensure any individual animal's genetic code will carry on. However, occasionally, there are variations which do mean that a particular dna sequence confers an advantage. The process of evolution is the proverbial "enough monkeys at enough typewriters for a long enough time."

Issues like homosexuality, or infertility or transgenderism are real problems for advocates of a perfect creation. Why would these exist? A perfect Creator created a perfect creation. Why is there cancer, small pox, or mosquitos? For evolution, the latter two are the products of evolution to fill a niche.
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1308
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 4:43:36 PM
Sorry, i cant repond to everyone at once or no one would read the post. Its hard to try and argue several different versions of evolution at once. One person says evolution is driven by advantages and benefical stages, and another says evolution is random chaos.

So let me offer a solution to your question about the benefits of genetic "defects". There is no reason that the existence of a Creator makes it mandatory for all things to be perceived as beneficial. The word beneficial or flawed is a human measurement. As you argue "why does autism exist if theres a God", that does not mean there is not a reason or that autism is even a bad or flawed trait. You think down syndrome is a flaw, that does not make it so. That is your perception.
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1309
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 4:59:05 PM
if homosexuality is a product of genes and hormones, so must be racism and pedifilism, and homophobics. For I dont have the ability to choose, I was born to hate people that have more melatonin in there system than me. My hormones and senses and brain function make me hate people who have same-sex relations.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 1310
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 6:23:03 PM

One person says evolution is driven by advantages and benefical stages, and another says evolution is random chaos.

Apparently I was using words that were too big for you to understand. I never claimed evolution is random chaos. What I did say is that anomalies pop up in the genetic code of individual members of a species. Most of those anomalies - darn, sorry I know it's three syllables, but I can't think of a better word - confer no benefit for furthering that genetic line. However, sometimes one pops up that does. So evolution is the process by which those changes in the genetic code which are beneficial to flourish.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 1311
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 8:44:12 PM

So as long as you continue to claim that whatever you don't understand is a hoax, you're pretty much done here in the science forums.


I may not persoanlly belive that that which I don't understand is merely hoax, but both advocates of evolution and backers of creationism seem equally capable of inane, immature & ignorant comments, from what I have been reading, Participants on both sides have shown themselves equally capable of intolerance & narrowmindedness, sorry to say; the seeming need to be right seems to outweigh actual thought, application of gut instinct & a healthy dose of comon sense, sad to say. I'd like to point out that this paticular forum is not just science, it is science AND philosophy, indicative of the interrelation & often the clash between the two.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 1312
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 8:44:20 PM
So as long as you continue to claim that whatever you don't understand is a hoax, you're pretty much done here in the science forums.


I may not personally believe that that which I don't understand is merely hoax, but both advocates of evolution and backers of creationism seem equally capable of inane, immature & ignorant comments, from what I have been reading, Participants on both sides have shown themselves equally capable of intolerance & narrowmindedness, sorry to say; the seeming need to be right seems to outweigh actual thought, application of gut instinct & a healthy dose of comon sense, sad to say. I'd like to point out that this paticular forum is not just science, it is science AND philosophy, indicative of the interrelation & often the clash between the two.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 1313
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/16/2011 11:57:44 PM

if homosexuality is a product of genes and hormones, so must be racism and pedifilism, and homophobics. For I dont have the ability to choose, I was born to hate people that have more melatonin in there system than me. My hormones and senses and brain function make me hate people who have same-sex relations.

The multi-level ignorance resident in this statement is so profound it defies belief. What's more, such complete displays of toxic incomprehension (to put it politely) probably preclude any possibility that a sensible or rational response will be understood.

Presumably you think you have provided a statement of position but what you've actually done is illustrate, to an extreme degree, the tragic potential of wilful ignorance and the awful capacity it has to subvert truth, rationality, and human development.

The statement quoted above is surely some kind of nadir of human expression.



...both advocates of evolution and backers of creationism seem equally capable of inane, immature & ignorant comments, from what I have been reading,

What have you been reading?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 1314
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/20/2011 12:23:50 AM
Secondly, any non-human animal, let alone human, born with a horrible defect is not something an omnibenevolent and omniscient creator deity would allow.

The fact that real and untold numbers of sentient organisms have endured such suffering, and continue to do so -- be it for minutes or years -- is simply not something such a god would permit, by definition.

(Perfect goodness entails a wholesale absence of any and all of the above -- no theological gymnastics of theodicy will get one out of that fact.)

You can write an encyclopedia-length tome on the endless carnage that has occurred unrelentingly for billions of years on this planet, and possibly on countless other planets elsewhere.

Hence, an omnibenevolent, omniscient god does not exist. The fact that such pain and suffering has occurred is quite simply irreconcilable with the existence of that kind of god.

In anthropomorphic terms -- which are the terms creationists prefer and indeed couch their god in -- the only god that is empirically consistent with the ostensible carnage is a god that is a psychopath.

ALL ABOVE IS A QUOTE.


so you are saying things are pretty sad.

not for some, but for all, [go to funerals]


so, you want to have your fun, BUT, have god stop devolution and make all the owees go away!
 Paul Overton
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 1315
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/20/2011 4:12:14 AM
all these post and not one testable idea that shows evolution as a scientific fact.

If I asked a chemist to prove how substances combined to make new substances, he would show me again and again w/o fallacy. If I asked a mathematician to prove an equation, he would show me again and again w/o fallacy. These are sciences!

If evolution is a science, give me the testable data that I can use to reproduce the same result again and again w/o fallacy to prove the thoery.

Thermodynamics (a science) 1st law states matter cannot be created or destroyed, hence, there has always been matter and always will be matter. All forms of science understand the very basic principle that everything came from ONE.

I have already provided a testable theory of a Creator which using science can be tested again and again w/o fallacy.

Evolution is not impossible, evolution w/o a creator is!
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 1316
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/20/2011 5:33:02 AM

all these post and not one testable idea that shows evolution as a scientific fact.

Try reading.

Change with inheritance was recognized millenia before Darwin, and that is all that evolution is. That's why we have dogs, corn, wheat, and herefords. None of these organisms existed 40000 years ago.


I have already provided a testable theory of a Creator which using science can be tested again and again w/o fallacy.

Utterly false.

You can't prove ANYthing involving a creator without first providing a testable definition for that creator. No-one has done that. Everything you have presented has been couched in fallacy, which has been demonstrated. Claiming that science can prove an undefined creator is another example.


Evolution is not impossible, evolution w/o a creator is!

I would not say this is untrue...since a creator can neither be proven nor disproven, it's possible. However, all evidence indicates that all the natural mechanisms exist to drive evolution WITHOUT the magical hand of fairy godfather.

In any case though, since the influence of a deity cannot be detected in the process, that first phrase of four words establishes that you're irrelevant to the thread.


Evolution is not impossible

Thank you for conceding the obvious.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 1317
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/20/2011 6:18:32 AM

all these post and not one testable idea that shows evolution as a scientific fact.

http://archaeologyinfo.com/human-evolution/
http://archaeologyinfo.com/human-evolution-timeline/
http://archaeologyinfo.com/hall-of-skulls/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/cre_args.html
http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/default.htm
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
http://www.nature.com/nature/newspdf/evolutiongems.pdf
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_02
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_03
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_04
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_05
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_06
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_07
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_08
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_09
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_10
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_11
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_12

Evolution is not impossible, evolution w/o a creator is!

Are you proposing that rational, logical, evolutionary progress is not possible, but magical evolution is?
I must have missed the post where you proved the existence of magic I guess... would you mind pointing to the post number where you established the proof and efficacy of magic?


I have already provided a testable theory of a Creator which using science can be tested again and again w/o fallacy.

You should publish.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 1318
view profile
History
Evolution.
Posted: 9/20/2011 6:38:31 AM
After all these pages and billions of others in other forums, there has been no credible evidence for a god or gods. It remains a theory. And there is no explanation of who created such a god, who it's parents were, ad infinitum. It's a theory.

Evolution however can be replicated in a lab setting, and we see it all around us every day as microbes, bacteria, bugs and plants evolve past our best laid plans to "control" nature.

In the lab.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028184.300-lab-yeast-make-evolutionary-leap-to-multicellularity.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/in-a-vat-primor/
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