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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?      Home login  
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 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 26
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?Page 2 of 29    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)
Estimates. Of course estimates are totally accurate. Especially studies from 1984 and 1992 both of which are mentioned but offer no details on what these supposedly "large samples" actually were.

Mine are only from the CDC who used actual statistics gathered from every medical institution in the United States.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf

Of course yours is more accurate. -bipolarintense


The estimated deaths associated with HAIs in
U.S. hospitals were 98,987

wait


for


it

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/pdf/hicpac/infections_deaths.pdf


Oh but wait! I must be in the "propaganda and false information" section that the CDC publishes! lol

Do you understand why an estimate is used here? There is no way to PROVE that it was a nosocomial infection. Ergo any number reguarding deaths caused by healthcare proceedures will be an estimate.

Also, the US HAS gone to "Universal" Healthcare in some instances in some states. Like Hawaii. They tried it. It bankrupted the program in less than half a year and they got rid of it.
 readyornot57
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 27
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History
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 3:36:03 PM
OP, to answer your question, this country has not gone to a socialized health care system because the drug lobby, the insurance lobby, etc has made sure to protect industry profits by totally buying Washington and totally misinforming the public.

Everyone is fine with quoting Reagan UNTIL THRY GET SICK and the insurance company cuts them off or triples the premium etc and then they cry like little baby victims because they thought they were safe and everyone else was fukked. Now they find out THEY are fukked and they are not fine with that but it will be too late Reagan lovers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Universal single payer coverage is the only way to go in a civilized compassionate society which we in the United States are not.
What should government be paying for, if not universal health care? More bank bailouts? More Halliburton no bid contracts? Oh yeah, I am REAL happy my tax dollars go to that.
 bipolarintense
Joined: 6/24/2009
Msg: 28
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 4:00:54 PM
Msg 2
Medication errors in hospitals kill roughly 3x more people than people using guns do per year.


Msg 26
The estimated deaths associated with HAIs in
U.S. hospitals were 98,987 wait for it http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/pdf/hicpac/infections_deaths.pdf


Really Lets translate HAI's. Health Care-Associated Infections???

So now medication errors are synonymous with infections. My but your reaching and the only conclusion I can ascertain from your using two unrelated causes of death to back your ridiculous claims is your one of those Southerners with a low IQ.

Msg 26
Oh but wait! I must be in the "propaganda and false information" section that the CDC publishes! lol

Your the one that proved it by using two completely unrelated causes of death.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 29
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 4:12:09 PM
Nosocomial (HAI) infections are caused by "medical errors" in sterility and proceedure. This is indeed a "medical error" as I stated. Please go back to page one. Read my second post (17). Modify your use HTML code so that your post is easier to read.
 hereIgoagain2009
Joined: 6/9/2009
Msg: 30
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 6:01:50 PM
Your doctors would never go for the Canadian system. They are grossly overpaid, do you actually think they would be willing to take a pay cut?
 Passionate Gent
Joined: 5/2/2009
Msg: 31
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 9:53:28 PM
Who's Health care is broken?

YES..my healthcare insurance is working just fine, the only people who think Health Care in the U.S. is broken probably can't afford it. There is a remedy for that. It's called get off your lazy ass and get a job, save your damn money, take time to invest instead of spending it on frivolous BS, and you'll learn how the majority of Americans can afford their medical coverage.

Some people are smart enough to invest in the future cost of Healthcare, it's called foresight, unfortunately mammy & daddy failed to instill that trait in the present crop of irresponsible misfits, who blame the Government for not bottle-feeding them with another form of Welfare.

I already work 60 to 70 hours a week to provide for what's important in my life, WHY should I have to work and pay more taxes for everyone elses healthcare? It's still morally wrong to penalize people who make more money, by making them pay more taxes!

I'm one that believes another hand-out from the Government will only restrain people from reaching their full potential for better advancement. There's no need to even try if someone is going to spoon-feed you and destroy any ambition people might have for true autonomy.

BTW THERE IS NO FREAKING ARGUMENT FOR PAYING TAXES TO PROVIDE HEALTHCARE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT EVEN AMERICAN CITIZENS.
OR DO ANY OF YOU SUPPOSE ILLEGAL ALIENS WILL BE EXCLUDED FROM OBAMA-CARE?

P..A..T..H..E..T..I..C
 bsabres19
Joined: 7/1/2009
Msg: 32
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/25/2009 11:25:23 PM
"Guns a right but healthcare a privilege?"

Correct

/thread
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 33
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History
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 6:49:42 AM
"Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and receive more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare US healthcare with that of other nations.

The survey of nearly 7,000 ill adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain, and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost, the survey found, and more than a third endured mistakes and disorganized care.

While patients in every nation sometimes run into obstacles to getting care and deficiencies in treatment, the United States stood out for having the highest error rates, most disorganized care, and highest costs, the survey found."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/11/04/us_lags_behind_other_nations_in_healthcare_study_says/

Those facts are not due to government regulations but the lack of government regulations. I don't always think the government is responsible yet I do believe that capitalism and greed are out of control.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 34
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 8:06:01 AM
It's still morally wrong to penalize people who make more money, by making them pay more taxes!


Please explain this theory...where does it say it is immoral to make one pay Taxes?


...................................................

I might remind everyone...The 2nd amendment can be amended itself...If in the future Americans repeal the 2nd, gun rights will be no more...Just because we have guns now doesnt mean forever.
 JackDiamond312
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 35
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 10:26:12 AM

It's still morally wrong to penalize people who make more money, by making them pay more taxes!



Please explain this theory...where does it say it is immoral to make one pay Taxes?


He didn't say taxes... He said more taxes.

The thing is if someone is making more money than someone else.... If they pay the same % of taxes.... They will already pay more taxes. That person is already contributing more to the kitty. So why is it fair to expect them to now even pay a higher %?

And when the government wants to add programs... why is it fair to even ask this higher % of people to fill the bill for those new programs... programs that they probably have no need for and nothing to do with.

It is asking all of the fans at a baseball game in the private boxes.... to pay for all the hot dogs, for the fans in the cheap seats.... Only because they want hot dogs.... and the other fans in the boxes have more money than them.

This is pure and simple.... a Robin hood mentality.... Someone of power, forcing those who work hard and make a decent income... pay the way of those who don't. It's taking money away from one group... and giving it to another.

If we just all paid a same % across the line... Those who make more will pay more and those who make less will pay less... The way some here want it... They believe if you make a lot... you should pay a lot... If you don't make anything... You should get a hand out. (you deserve some of the income of those who make it) Where, in anything... is this really fair?

If you want to be honest about this healthcare program.... Than everyone should be taxed for it... not just the wealthy.... For them to come out and tell this rosy picture about how you will get free healthcare and that it won't cost you a dime... that we will cut the pay of the doctors... and tax the rich more.... is BullSh1t.

And this is coming from a guy with a low income... and no healthcare. I'm looking for real change... A hand up... not a hand out.
 shmodzilla
Joined: 10/6/2008
Msg: 36
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 12:58:04 PM
Health care is not a privelage,your drivers license is. Nobody can force an american citizen NOT to have it . Americans that are uninsured by their place of employment will put buying health insurance DEAD LAST on their prioritys in a budget. Nope gotta have 2 new cars, go out to eat 5 times a week ,drink,smoke, but health care just doesnt fit into there budget.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 37
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 2:04:48 PM

The thing is if someone is making more money than someone else.... If they pay the same % of taxes.... They will already pay more taxes. That person is already contributing more to the kitty. So why is it fair to expect them to now even pay a higher %?


taxes...more taxes

I never said Fair...Gentleman said Immoral. I asked where does it say that ...paying taxes, paying higher percentage or rate is Immoral?
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 38
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 7/26/2009 7:19:38 PM
Gent, YOUR healthcare may be fine, but your hospital is reeling. Down in the South, many hospitals are closing because they don't have enough money to stay open because of treating illegals and people who don't have healthcare, etc. Hospitals are shutting down, Dr's are getting pissed, etc. Healthcare is not "ok". I applaude that you are doing fine, but the system itself is in trouble.
 wudger
Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 39
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/2/2009 11:22:00 AM
well, that certainly explains a lot.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/01/lobbyists-millions-obama-healthcare-reform


Revealed: millions spent by lobby firms fighting Obama health reforms

Six lobbyists for every member of Congress as healthcare industry heaps cash on politicians to water down legislation

America's healthcare industry has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to block the introduction of public medical insurance and stall other reforms promised by Barack Obama. The campaign against the president has been waged in part through substantial donations to key politicians.

Supporters of radical reform of healthcare say legislation emerging from the US Senate reflects the financial power of vested interests ‑ principally insurance companies, pharmaceutical firms and hospitals ‑ that have worked to stop far-reaching changes threatening their profits.

The industry and interest groups have spent $380m (£238m) in recent months influencing healthcare legislation through lobbying, advertising and in direct political contributions to members of Congress. The largest contribution, totalling close to $1.5m, has gone to the chairman of the senate committee drafting the new law.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 40
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/2/2009 11:31:25 AM
OP, IMO I'd say it ought to be the other way around (your title for the thread). Personally I feel that good quality healthcare = a Right, guns (at best) = a privilege. But I realize that's a highly controversial opinion to have in some parts of this country. But that's mine and it's not changing..
 steveemac
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 41
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/2/2009 1:44:26 PM

do you really think the present system is working? have any of you people against doing something looked at where this will be in ten years? twenty years?
The Far Right is most assuredly NOT in the habit of contrasting their beliefs with future consequences of their actions...case in point: during the last administration -which had both the executive and legislative branches controlled by the GOP for six of those eight years- involved us in not one but two wars while simultaneously calling for a tax cut.
Now, this is not to debate whether or not we should/shouldn't have gotten involved in those conflicts (IMO: Afghanistan, yes; Iraq, no), but to point out the fact that the right-wing leadership proposed to do so while cutting off the main thing that any military action consumes mass quantities of: money. At the very least, one would think the NeoCon/Populist leadership would have left the tax rates where they were; but no-they left the bill for their children and grandchildren to try to make good on.
As with the current argument over HealthCarePayment reform; they fail -or refuse- to even consider what the status quo will mean for this country, as that would involve considering a reality that will take place at a later date. The Far Right basically only thinks about the present -and wraps themselves in the past to justify it's mortgaging of our nation's future.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 42
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/2/2009 7:03:13 PM
^^ Yeah.... and sadly IMO at least the reform that we (likely) will get (I do think they'll eventually get some form of this pushed through with 60 votes), will just not be effective enough. It's almost in a way like Obama's admin's "reform" of the credit card industry. Great idea, I agree , just like with the healthcare ideas. BUT....they kindly inform the CC's that this is not going to take place for close to a year, and what do the CC's (naturally) do?? Begin practically randomly jacking peoples' rates all over the place, cutting peoples' credit lines that they rely on (and small businesses' credit lines that they rely on) in half with little to no warning, and so on. All because the "reform" is A) too little (arguably too late), and B) does not take effect quickly enough....gives the corporate campaign donors enough time to adjust accordingly so they don't ever truly take TOO much of a hit, God forbid.

And with this healthcare reform , I fear it could turn into the same kind of thing. As Rockefeller said the other day, basically if you put this thing through just as is, with NO form of public competition to check the private insurers, and all you're essentially doing is telling them for instance they no longer will be able to "cherry pick" in 2 or 3 more years, all they're going to do to make up for those predicted losses is jack their premiums even higher, therefore these half-assed half-measures at reform (intended solely to see to it that SOMEthing passes so they can say they actually DID something and neither Republicans nor corporate sponsors were hurt too badly by it) end up ultimately costing the average people even more. Either go balls-out and MAKE real changes and enact them reasonably quickly and prevent these industries from further hurting the consumers by putting some kind of constraints on them that go along with these reforms, OR ...just leave bad enough alone already.
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 43
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/2/2009 8:51:14 PM
WOW, Dino! I have to give kudos when they are due.

I know you and I are polar opposites in our political views, but I sincerely appreciate your honest assessment in your above post. IMO, it echoes the sentiment and opinions of the vast majority of Independents who voted for Obama. They are quickly tiring of the same old rhetoric, doublespeak and smoke & mirrors.






~ds~
 valenciacityx
Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 44
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:22:30 PM
Its a farce, it wont work, they should be ashamed of themselves for wasting all of this legislative time on it.
Why wont it work?.....
Washington state has MANDATED required insurance for motorized vehicles. If you are a driver, you are REQUIRED to have insurance. That is as pretty much as a universal as you can get. The states own estimates are that 15-18 % of drivers do not have insurance in the state. That stat provided by the boys in blue that are actually doing the traffic stops. The state does have subsidized motorcoverage for those that are 'too poor or too adverse a risk' to be carried by normal insurance (and it is expensive, but if you have 5 dui cites on your record; whose fault is that?)
Still the number persists. So what are you going to do about it. They arent confiscating the cares of the uninsured. They arent revoking the licenses of the uninsured. They arent automaticly deducting payment from the unisured. And they certainly arent sending 15-18 percent of the drivers to jail for violating the law.
Expect government healthcare to be met with the level of response. You cant legislate personal responsibility. If billy joe bob wants to drive around without car insurance, sure its illegal, but what you are gonna do ? Health care will be the same way.
And any 'National' healthcare without an immigration component for eligibility is destoned for early failure. Book mark this, save it, in two years you will see that I was right.
 dennyden
Joined: 6/27/2007
Msg: 45
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History
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:34:58 PM
the right to bear arms doesnt mean that any and everyone can have a gun, if u are convicted of a felony, you cant have a gun. so i guess guns are a privelage as well, just like driving a car, if u do things by the law u willbe ok, if u dont u wont. besides they are 2 seperate things, i mean we have alot of rights, would u give up the right of freedom of speech for healthcare, just odd that they use guns as the example
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 46
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:07:12 PM
There is that little line in the Declaration of Independence that could be codified by Constitutional Amendment.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The founders, in their wisdom of the day, could not have envisioned insurance company death panels that would deny care, life and liberty for citizens not being given basic care to sustain life, and liberty from having homes and all assets taken by said corporations should one fall on hard times, by bullet, luck of the draw or corporate neglect. With most of the bankruptcies and home thefts now happening because of health issues, there is a direct assault on life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

The founders probably had not envisioned extreme right militia groups, drug gangs, mafias, and known criminals being bestowed an inalienable right to bear arms against the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of their citizenry.

Again, I did not hear the 2nd amendment folks screaming and yelling about the violations of the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments over the last 8 years. It's the "I GOT MINE" folks, temporarily secure, covered, and able-bodied, that scream the loudest in this debate on basic human dignity and the right to not be killed by neglect or accident in the current health care system run by corporations who run the government. I don't think the founders had envisioned corporate control of citizens in their visioning process.
 predator45
Joined: 9/30/2009
Msg: 47
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 4:43:41 PM
The individual right to keep and bear arms is a right which may be forfeited if the individual is convicted of a felony just as are rights of citizenship are legally forfieted by those by those who have proven themselves to be either too irresponsible or too dishonest to be trusted with them.

So criminals are NOT bestowed with any inaliable right to keep and bear arms.

Honest citizens are but State and local firearms vary and legal gun ownership is difficult even for the most law abiding in some jurisdictions.

Criminals carry arms in spite of the law not because of it.

Now as to health care being a priviledge and gun ownership a right, I can't see any logical reason why United States citizens cannot have their 2nd Ammendment Rights and an affordable public health care system as well.

I hope that our American mates do get a good public health care system but I also hope that they keep their guns as well.
 Terry Pie
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 48
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:00:02 PM
the term law abiding citizen is not just a term.it has meaning.as a reward for keeping my nose clean,proving i am a good and responsible citizen,i have to right to own and purchase firearms legally!if that right is taken away,gangstas murderers,robbers and what ever else will still have their guns.in fact,i doubt many sheriff depts. would enforce a major gun ban,and many would arrest federal marshals for trying to take our guns!the right to own and bear arms was written at a time when health care was not much of an issue.
perhaps we need to re-think some things,but i will never turn over my hard earned right to bear arms.case in point,Australia banned personal firearms,and that turned out to be a major fiasco,with the criminals cashing in on the helpless public.the ones that kept their arms and fought back were made into criminals,and that is just wrong!i am a veteran,trained in firearms,and am not going to shoot anyone without just cause or rob a liqueur store.i proved that by passing the back ground checks.my guns are in storage,but one that is for protection,living in the country.not just against the bad guys,we have rabid raccoons,poison snakes wild dogs.guns are american as apple pie,but the pie tastes better.
please read this article about post gun banned australia:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1117376/posts
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 49
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:06:28 PM
Maybe the States should start selling and taxing pot. Use the proceeds for health care.
Legalize and monitor the sex industry. Tax it .
Sell old nukes to weird countries..no discounts.
Hire more security to keep illegal immigrants out.
All these things would go towards a better health care system in one way or another.
 Terry Pie
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 50
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:21:00 PM
we have enough wackos running around without legalizing dope.people are having enough trouble tracking here now.trust me,we don't need that.health care costs would drop considerably if the feds would grow a set,and cut the deficit so they could afford to ban cigarettes!the collect an unholy amount of taxes on a product they know is addictive,will cause major health problems,and very likely will kill you and destroy ones quality of life.at 49,i enjoy pretty good health,while my neighbor,two years my senior can barely make it to his mail box.and he cannot understand why i excersize daily!because i can,i don't smoke.
the border also would not be a problem had our last president stayed out of iraq!now we are tied in two wars,while he made a major tax cut,added medicare part b,and at the same time,allowed our factories to run away to other countries.bush was/is a moron and shout be tried for treason.
just my opinion,please lets not beat that horse or this thread will get pulled.pot is not the answer my friend,and is perhaps the problem,we have had politicians that claim they did not have sex or inhale,if you recall.although he did balance the budget!
Hmmmmmmmmmmm,you may have a point.LOL
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