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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?      Home login  
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 wudger
Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 51
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?Page 3 of 29    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)




considering there was hardly a legitimate doctor in the country when the constitution was written it would have been more than a little spooky had the founding fathers included a healthcare provision.
 PokerPlayerLV
Joined: 4/17/2008
Msg: 52
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:09:13 AM
lol @ thinking you have a right to healthcare. Left wing sheep. You have a right to freedom of speech, and the pursuit of happiness, but you DON'T have a right to healthcare.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 53
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:47:34 PM
For this comparison to be legitimate in any way a person would buy a gun and shoot it everyday,and his neighbor would have to buy the bullets...self defense is a right..the key word being self.
 Gangster Kitten
Joined: 4/3/2008
Msg: 54
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:52:35 PM

lol @ thinking you have a right to healthcare. Left wing sheep. You have a right to freedom of speech, and the pursuit of happiness, but you DON'T have a right to healthcare.


Here's the thing that really pisses me off about this debate. These senators callin the shit socialism, blah blah, etc. and so forth.

All those senators have been granted free healthcare for the rest of their lives until they die. What did they do? They were appointed as senators. You could say, but that's their job, it's their job that's giving them free healthcare as a benefit.

But they work for the government, so the government is essentially giving these government officials free healthcare.

I just feel it's kind of F*cked up that these people enjoy free healthcare for the rest of their lives, then are very vocal in being against a government policy to bring it to the people.
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 55
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:40:53 PM
Politicians are like that. They "de-indexed" pensions in Canada for eveyone...except them selves. They love voting themselves bread and circuses, leaving the general population to foot the bill. Especially when a lot of the general populace cannot afford or access the programs and perks that most politicians enjoy.

Even in the States, gun ownership is becoming more of a privilege than a right.
Here in Canada, there is talk of scrapping the gun registry program that they spent billions on. It never really worked. We Canadians may not be huge believers in keeping guns "just in case"...but then again...maybe we just don't talk about it much and we're actually armed to the friggin' teeth! Not many really want to find out though. The "sheeple" registered their guns...the rest of the populance told big brother to mind their own business.

Healthcare. No matter who you are, you will be using it someday. Should you pay the whole shot yourself? Most poeple can't afford it. This is why a social healthcare system is needed.
Insurance? LOL....they weasle out of paying and leave you losing everything you every had! So that way doesn't work. Too many loopholes for insurance companies to get out of paying!
If the gov't had cracked down on insurance companies and made laws stating that "pre-existing conditions" could NOT be used to deny insurance coverage or buying new policies, it may have worked. Also, a broadening of costs paid for would have helped. But...the gov't decided to go with the lobbyists and didn't go after the insurance companies.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 56
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:30:23 PM
How are social programs going to help prevent gun crimes...people shoot each other because they of what is in their heart not because government does or does not have a program to adress it.....it's amazing that we as human beings have come to the point where we don't even recognize the role human nature plays in society's problems, instead it's always because government isn't spending enough money, spend more money all will be well...next thing you know we will all get a check from the government each month not shoot,rape or rob our neighbor.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 57
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:06:51 PM
This thread still makes no sense to me. Healthcare is open to all. It is a right that is protected even moreso than the right to own a firearm. From whence does this whining originate? From those who want FREE healthcare. That's where. I don't ask you to foot the bill for my ammo each month, don't compare that to asking me to help foot your med bill each month.
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 58
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:40:23 PM
to message 64........no..we the people didnt give them healthcare.....nor did "the government".......they gave it to themselves AND they made us pay for it.........same as they just gave themselves a $90k raise...........all the laws they pass....all regulations and restrictions....that we the people have to live by........they exempt themselves from....there is nobody.....no entity...nothing in our legal system...nothing...that has power over the congress or senate......................only the voters...and the average american voter does more research and comparison shopping on toilet paper than they do on their congressman, senator............or presidential cantidate.

sadly.....right now....only 2 groups of people are given healthcare as a right......those 2 groups are convicted criminals and illegal aliens...........

think i'm wrong?.........................do some research
 valenciacityx
Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 59
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:44:13 AM
Heres really the only way I am ok with any money coming out of my pocket for this fiasco (why because I am fiscally responsible and capable of taking better care of myself then that government)

If they DNA type, catalogue, record and profile EVERY patient birthed, screened, admitted, treated and made that data accessible to law enforcement. (subpeno required for query, not collection) Then I would be ok with it.

If they made Finger printing and National identity a caveat to care with a new national health card. Deportation for illegal alien population. Then I am ok with it.

Convert one prision in every state to 'free' care. hey, they have the facilities for it. You can check out when your social debt is paid off.

Other wise, you are just throwing more money down a hole, paying off special interest groups, propping up drug companies, shoring up comminity pork barrel orginizer groups, and supporting the machine of Medicare, Medicaid, AARP, private insurance and unions in a piecemeal fracture jigsaw puzzle that is destoned to fail.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 60
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:53:17 AM
Guns are a big part of our healthcare system. When we fall through the cracks of the system, develop a terminal disease that the insurance company refuses to cover, we have our guns as a backup plan. More people die of suicide than homicide in the US, with guns being the preferred method in 55% of exits. White males are the bravest and most inclined to blow their brains out. Veterans, not getting the adequate treatment they needed for PTSD, blowing their brains out in the highest numbers in decades.

The cheapest health care system we can come up with is more guns for everyone.

A less messy and more humane system would cost a little more, but hey...we're number one at being cheaparses.

Op-Ed Columnist
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/opinion/05kristof.html?_r=1

Unhealthy America
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
The moment of truth for health care is at hand, and the distortion that perhaps gets the most traction is this:

We have the greatest health care system in the world. Sure, it has flaws, but it saves lives in ways that other countries can only dream of. Abroad, people sit on waiting lists for months, so why should we squander billions of dollars to mess with a system that is the envy of the world? As Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama puts it, President Obama’s plans amount to “the first step in destroying the best health care system the world has ever known.”

That self-aggrandizing delusion may be the single greatest myth in the health care debate. In fact, America’s health care system is worse than Slov—er, oops, more on that later.

The United States ranks 31st in life expectancy (tied with Kuwait and Chile), according to the latest World Health Organization figures. We rank 37th in infant mortality (partly because of many premature births) and 34th in maternal mortality. A child in the United States is two-and-a-half times as likely to die by age 5 as in Singapore or Sweden, and an American woman is 11 times as likely to die in childbirth as a woman in Ireland.

Canadians live longer than Americans do after kidney transplants and after dialysis, and that may be typical of cross-border differences. One review examined 10 studies of how the American and Canadian systems dealt with various medical issues. The United States did better in two, Canada did better in five and in three they were similar or it was difficult to determine.

Yet another study, cited in a recent report by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Urban Institute, looked at how well 19 developed countries succeeded in avoiding “preventable deaths,” such as those where a disease could be cured or forestalled. What Senator Shelby called “the best health care system” ranked in last place.

The figures are even worse for members of minority groups. An African-American in New Orleans has a shorter life expectancy than the average person in Vietnam or Honduras.

I regularly receive heartbreaking e-mails from readers simultaneously combating the predations of disease and insurers. One correspondent, Linda, told me how she had been diagnosed earlier this year with abdominal and bladder cancer — leading to battles with her insurance company.

“I will never forget standing outside the chemo treatment room knowing that the medication needed to save my life was only a few feet away, but that because I had private insurance it wasn’t available to me,” Linda wrote. “I read a comment from someone saying that they didn’t want a faceless government bureaucrat deciding if they would or would not get treatment. Well, a faceless bureaucrat from my private insurance made the decision that I wouldn’t get treatment and that I wasn’t worth saving.”

It’s true that Americans have shorter waits to see medical specialists than in most countries, although waits in Germany are shorter than in the United States. But citizens of other countries get longer hospital stays and more medication than Americans do because our insurance companies evict people from hospitals as soon as they can stagger out of bed.

For example, in the United States, 90 percent of hernia surgery is performed on an outpatient basis. In Britain, only 40 percent is, according to a report by the McKinsey Global Institute.

Likewise, Americans take 10 percent fewer drugs than citizens in other countries — but pay 118 percent more per pill that they do take, McKinsey said.

Opponents of reform assert that the wretched statistics in the United States are simply a consequence of unhealthy lifestyles and a diverse population with pockets of poverty. It’s true that America suffers more from obesity than other countries. But McKinsey found that over all, the disease burden in Europe is higher than in the United States, probably because Americans smoke less and because the American population is younger.

Moreover, there is one American health statistic that is strikingly above average: life expectancy for Americans who have already reached the age of 65. At that point, they can expect to live longer than the average in industrialized countries. That’s because Americans above age 65 actually have universal health care coverage: Medicare. Suddenly, a diverse population with pockets of poverty is no longer such a drawback.

That brings me to an apology.

In several columns, I’ve noted indignantly that we have worse health statistics than Slovenia. For example, I noted that an American child is twice as likely to die in its first year as a Slovenian child. The tone — worse than Slovenia! — gravely offended Slovenians. They resent having their fine universal health coverage compared with the notoriously dysfunctional American system.

As far as I can tell, every Slovenian has written to me. Twice. So, to all you Slovenians, I apologize profusely for the invidious comparison of our health systems. Yet I still don’t see anything wrong with us Americans aspiring for health care every bit as good as yours.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 61
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:21:14 AM
The universal health care cost money. Someone has to pay for those "under privileged" people. The gun owners pay for guns from their own pockets. They don't ask me for money.


Thankyou, and thanks to us (and Obama's rants about how he would ban them all), that segment of the economy saw a 500% increase this last year, compared to the rest of the economy's nose-dive. Firearms are highly "American" in the jobs/parts/etc. they derive from. The anti-gunners would hurt the economy a good bit if they got their way.
 Rarebird76
Joined: 5/10/2009
Msg: 62
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 9:27:59 AM
On a related note I've recently come to a realization of sorts. I find it funny how some conservatives are up in arms about 'Obamacare' as some like to say. Ok, what's funny is how some conservatives are against excessive spending/taxing etc because they feel they shouldn't have to pay for OTHER peoples well being. "spreading the weath" etc. Ok a valid stance.

NOW where it gets funny is these are some of the same people who believe in "serving" your country and DYING to supposedly "protect" OUR freedoms. Can I get a big LOL hypocrisy please? So they will DIE for OTHERS but touch their wallet and 'it's on'

I call these people military socialists. Socialistic except on the other side of the spectrum as the economic socialists.

And btw I don't identify with any 1 group as I think liberals & conservatives both have their irrational emotion fueled portions that value their egos & pride more than common sense & problem solving which I don't subscribe to. I believe in common sense, fairness and problem solving not ideological obedience.
 insert user name
Joined: 5/4/2006
Msg: 63
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:46:45 AM
People who argue that its not fair that they have to pay for a healthcare program don't realize that they are already paying far more than places like the UK due to safety net programs designed to protect the population as a whole.

Of course we could just let the millions without coverage go naked so these butt hurt people can keep those meager pennies on each paycheck. Its not as if a total lack of healthcare could allow something like a plague to happen or anything.
 Gangster Kitten
Joined: 4/3/2008
Msg: 64
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 9:43:10 AM

This thread still makes no sense to me. Healthcare is open to all. It is a right that is protected even moreso than the right to own a firearm. From whence does this whining originate? From those who want FREE healthcare. That's where. I don't ask you to foot the bill for my ammo each month, don't compare that to asking me to help foot your med bill each month.


So why do politicians get free healthcare, but not the people? I submit all politicians forfeit their free healthcare, and pay for it like the rest of America.

Also, we pay for public health services if you think about it. When you get down to it, police is a form of health care. It's not very healthy to have someone break into your house and shoot you. We collectively pay taxes so that a police force can protect us. We collectively pay taxes for the fire department too. You don't see any politicians campaigning for privatized fire departments.

If I proposed that it should be privatized and people need to pay for plans for police and fire departments, you'd call me nuts, and probably an anarchist or something. Yet when it turns to healthcare, I'm a socialist. Wanting collective protection from criminals and fires is American, but when that hostile thing shifts to being a germ, it's suddenly socialist?
 sammylg
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 65
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:00:03 AM
Actually, even Canada is looking at a two tiered (private and public) system, so universal healthcare is not the utopia it claims to be.

I think both the Repubs and Dems have their issues and the right answer is somewhere in the middle.

I think Government Healthcare is a possible solution, but states have the right to opt in (not opt OUT).

I think the Healthcare is a RIGHT, and that Insurance companies cannot just use the dreaded "pre-existing condition" to deny health care coverage.

I think there should be cross state competition, and I shake my head everytime that Dems ignore that issue.

I think Abortion should not be apart of any public health plan (except for Rape and incest). It may be legal, but it is morally questionable to about half the population.

However, I think that legal liability causing medicine to skyrocket is a red herring. It isn't lawyers driving doctors to practice defensive medicine and write up every test known to man, it is greed. Studies from Northwestern has shown that in Missouri and Texas, where legal liability is restricted, health care costs are going up just as fast. This is because many people are ordering up test and getting kickbacks from those testing.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 66
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:57:04 AM

Why should it be a constitutional right for any American to own a gun while only those with a lot of money can have full healthcare benefits from the best doctors in the country while others who don't have as much money can't get the same treatment, especially for important medical procedures. If anything, it should be a human right to have proper medical care regardless of whether you make 30,000 a year or 500,000 or whatever to save your life and a privelage to own a gun which in hindsight can kill people.
They are treated equally in America.

You can buy a gun. If you don't have the money to, you can't.
You can buy healthcare. If you don't have the money to, you can't.

Same difference. Same results. The people with the most money have the best guns and the best healthcare. The people with the least money get shot and die on the street.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 67
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:59:34 AM

Same difference. Same results. The people with the most money have the best guns and the best healthcare. The people with the least money get shot and die on the street.


It's all about priorities. I have stuff that would make any police dept./military armorer crack a smile a mile wide, but I certainly don't have more money than these groups. Just better taste and the will to save until I can buy something I want.

Same to healthcare. I am relatively healthy and when I do need to go to the Dr. I spend intelligently.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 68
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:04:52 AM

It's all about priorities. I have stuff that would make any police dept./military armorer crack a smile a mile wide, but I certainly don't have more money than these groups. Just better taste and the will to save until I can buy something I want.

Same to healthcare. I am relatively healthy and when I do need to go to the Dr. I spend intelligently
You have a VERY nice car, and you can afford to go to the gym regularly. Both of those are things that many people who don't earn a lot, simply cannot afford. For them, it's a choice between guns and healthcare or food and electricity. They don't have the money for both those groups.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 69
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 3:57:13 PM
You have a VERY nice car, and you can afford to go to the gym regularly. Both of those are things that many people who don't earn a lot, simply cannot afford. For them, it's a choice between guns and healthcare or food and electricity. They don't have the money for both those groups.


My car cost $12,000+TTL, and my gym runs me $30 a month. I don't go out to see movies or stuff but 1-2x per month, I don't eat out but maybe 3-4 times a month, and I try to live a minimalist lifestyle confined to my daily activities and my few hobbies. I live on roughly $15-18K a year, including books and full-time college tuition. It's not that hard to live intelligently on little money unless you have a medical condition or something that necessitates spending lots of money.

Pay cash for everything
Stay out of debt.
Needs THEN wants.

My dad used to only make 20-25K a year net, but he had a private plane (Cessina 182), 55 (acres, bought/payed for), a harley, and a 'vette. I came along and rocked the boat a bit, but still. It just goes to show what you can do if you are sensible and manage money well.

*I did want to come behind this post an add, I was a "bogue" and had no credit, so I got my Dad to co-sign on a $2500 LOC for me, and have used it a LOT! I went from being a bogue to having a beacon of over 700 according to Experian in roughly 2 years. Building credit is good, not ALL debt is bad.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 70
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 4:11:09 PM

Pay cash for everything
Stay out of debt.
Needs THEN wants.

Not too hard to figure out, people who try to push debt on you are not your friends, if an offer seems too good to be true, it isn't.
 dmotz
Joined: 11/19/2008
Msg: 71
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:50:54 AM
Ok people...We have our anti gun nuts in here..we have our anti health care reform nuts and those who are just nuts...

Let us make this simple shall we?

The Constitution has what we like to call" THE SECOND AMENDMENT". Some feel it is out dated while others feel it is just as sacred today as when it was written. Gun ownership is a right...To keep and bear arms..

Now on the topic of those who want health care to be a right...

CAN ANYONE...ANYONE SHOW ME WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT IT SAYS HEALTH CARE IS A RIGHT?

You can not....because it is not a right. I do not think it should be a right. Some things in this life you have to pay for folks.....
 Leezard26
Joined: 4/12/2009
Msg: 72
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:13:54 PM
The difference in this heathcare plan of the uninsured and socialize medicine is that you will die in a hospital rather than the streets.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 73
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Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/19/2009 6:24:53 PM
I don't think it SHOULD be about rights, it should be about logic. The logic I'm talking about DOESN'T lead either to doing nothing, OR to government-controlled health care.

Right now, the entire debate going on assumes employers will continue to be allowed to treat a worker's hours as though the worker will never age, never need to stop working. That is how we are paid today. Foreign competition with nations with totally different systems of pay and totally different expectations of quality of living are allowed to determine how low employers are allowed to pay us. All economic calculations within a private company are based on the assumption that one worker hour is the same as another, and that once the worker is no longer required, or no longer able to work, he becomes SOMEONE ELSE's financial responsibility. There is no recognition that as you use a workers hours, you use up their LIFE.
Ironically, when it comes to INANIMATE resources, the capitalist world DOES recognize that they change,and age, and require replacement, and even post-use care! We have laws that require mining companies to clean up after themselves. Companies have to figure the cost of cleaning up after themselves into the cost of production, and in the prices they charge. They DON'T have to figure ANY of the cost of using up the lives of their HUMAN resources.
The rules of what something costs are ESTABLISHED BY PEOPLE. They do not occur naturally. Right now, the entire health care debate is about who should be allowed to get rich, and who should have to pay, to cobble together some kind of basic short term care for the indigent. It should be about how MUCH of the COMPLETE cost of living is actually calculated.
 Quietpainter
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 74
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/21/2009 1:04:33 PM

... every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with...


Might not this condition explain the rationale as to why we shouldn't socialize medicine? Being stuck on a list is not getting "quality treatment."

We know what happened. The good doctors went rogue and the not so good ones signed on to the government system.

My guess is that for each person that needs emergency treatment there will be one already in the OR getting a tummy tuck. -h
 wudger
Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 75
Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/21/2009 10:16:29 PM
funny that is less true in most socialized health systems than in ours but hey, at this point its just wasting time pointing out that though some of the european and japanese systems have some problems, they don't have nearly the problems our system has.
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