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Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 26
my kids don't need a father, they already have onePage 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
^^^I agree, but I know why people say it. Usually it's after a string of people they've met expected them to put their kids aside to date. I get someone who's trying to avoid the same situation happening before they start talking to someone.
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 27
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 8/14/2009 4:32:00 PM

To be honest, in the "real" world, is the statement "my kids don't need a father/mother" actually used? When I was a dating single parent, I had never heard ANYONE ever say that. I've never heard my single friends say this either

It doesn't get said in the real world, unless a relationship has "problems". When that does get said, it's said with an intention to be hurtful or controlling, so putting it in a profile will trigger that for some men.

Beyond that, people don't "study" profiles. They look at a pic, glance through the profile, and form an immediate impression. Negatives are always off putting. Almost anything you say after "I don't" is going to come across as you being a negative person.

If a woman says "I have great kids, who have a good relationship with their father", no one would see that as negative. If a woman says "I have a good job that I really enjoy", it's a positive. If she says "I'm a strong independent woman, and I don't need a man", that is quite the opposite.

But, it's your profile, ladies, so do with it as you like. Some men tried to respond to the OP with an intent to give you an insight into how some things process, but for some women, that's just an invitation to tell men how they are "wrong". Some women are very good at that.

Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 28
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:54:41 PM
Re: Post #85

If you are satisfied with the quantity and quality of the men who respond to your "offer", then there's no problem, and on incentive for you to change a thing.

For others, th0ugh, it's a generally accepted tenet of anyone who studies human response, that people are more attracted to positive messages, then they would be to negative ones.

At that, good luck, and good fishing. No doubt your approach works well for you, for which I congratulate you.
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 29
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:31:13 PM

Are we gold digging, meal ticket seeking, desperate, needy creatures who are just on the hunt for a Daddy to take care of our kids and a husband to take care of us?
Are we emasculating, controlling ****es, who don't need a man and will make you feel impotent, unimportant and an outsider at every turn?

You can see how one might believe she is a bit screwed in this situation? Damned if we do and damned if don't!

Well, many men feel damned if we do and damned if we don't as well.

I think most of us get what you are saying, but things change when we live with you. Sure, you aren't looking for a meal ticket and sure you're not looking for a new father for your kids, but from my experience and the experience of MANY men I've talked with, these things DO become reality over time.

It costs a lot in time and/or money if a guy chooses to live with a single mother for little real benefit. His time and money WILL be compromised, his compliance with HER lifestyle expected.

Yes, we all get that you meplus, and nearly every other woman out there is perfect.

But, given that so many men have had similar, less than stellar, experiences with single mothers must mean that those 12-15 not-so-great single mothers in the world must have been pretty fvcking busy to have dated, married and lived with so many different men all over the world....

For the record, I'd have no problem at all dating a single mother if I still dated, but I would NEVER live with a single mother again.

Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 30
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:39:14 PM

Very few women choose to be single mothers and sometimes the man is to blame.

Well, let's not forget, though, that only women can decide to bring a kid into the world. So every mother has chosen to be a mother, single or not.

Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 31
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:01:53 PM
Why do we never see, profiles from single moms, explaining how she is willing to try to adapt and augment the man's lifestyle too... ?


Women have been saying it to you over and over and over and over again, ad nauseum that their P.O.V. is correct, their experience is more grounded, their spirits are golden, they are more mature, responsible, understanding, and are generally more evolved than you are....

... and you STILL aren't getting 'IT'....

I am so often reminded of the Wif of Bathe from Chaucer' Canterbury Tales when I read these fora. To paraphrase:

Just give me, your wife, control in every aspect of your life and I'll make you a happy man.

Chaucer was either 6-700 years ahead of his time, or women haven't changed much........

Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 32
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:18:15 PM
Now that the mods seemed to have come in and cleaned up this thread, the topic is about women putting "my children don't need a father, they already have one" on one's profile.

There seem to be a lot of women who insist that men reading that "should" understand what they mean, and a lot of men explaining to women that it's seen as a negative. There are several women, who seem to insist that men are "wrong" for having the visceral response that many do. Nothing new about women telling men that they're wrong.

Nothing new, either, in "female logic" that is based on "I think, THEREFORE, IT IS"

The greater point, for everyone, is that if something is expressed as a negative, it rarely brings a positive response.
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 33
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/16/2009 9:05:57 PM
I believe I covered both your areas of concern in my profile. My children both have dads that are pretty well involved in their lives. So I am honestly not looking for a replacement father to them. I do however expect any man I choose to be in our lives to be a good male role model and friend to them. Should the time arise that said man becomes more to them (i.e. - stepfather)... well that is for both him and my children to determine.

Obviously I am not with my exes for reasons, and those I am very open and honest about. My son's father and I were young and rushed into things. We realized that before things got ugly and separated FOR our son. We are still very very good friends and co-parent entirely. Any man that chooses to be in my life is made aware of this and must be willing to accept that my ex will still be largely involved in my life in a positive way.
My daughter's father and I split on uglier terms (found out he'd been cheating on me for some time) but we have moved past that for our daughter's sake. He is also, and will continue to be, a part of my daily life (he calls to speak with our daughter morning and evening at least).

I did not "take my ex for all he's worth" in either situation. I was a stay at home mom and had to move home with my mother because of that. My ex got the house and to keep the lifestyle we had, the kids and I lost all we were used to. I refuse to "let" any man do that to me again and so will never give up the ability to support my children on my own again. It was my ex's choice that I be a stay at home mom, yet i'm the one that paid for it.

I know that in the general picture, you are right. Many many women "take" the men "to the cleaners" ... I just choose to put my kids first. I choose to move past my feelings for their fathers so that they don't have to see their parents fight the way I did.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 34
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/16/2009 10:23:17 PM

my kids don't need a father, they already have one

I avoid these women all together. You can taste the attitude in that very line.
I've been in a relationship with a woman that had that attitude and guess what? it doesn't work. To have a happy successful long-term relationship/marriage, one needs to be involved and a part of the children's lives. Otherwise, you get stuck in the position where, the kids are being disrespectful, rude, obnoxious, violent etc, the mother is doing nothing about it, or not doing it very well, and you can't do anything about it either. How can you live in a household where you have no say? It's a stupid and selfish attitude.

I have a step father and he has been married to my mum since I was 8 years-old (I'm 36). I told them both some years back that the mistake my mum made was not allowing my step dad to discipline me and my brother. The reason why is; we had no respect for him when we were younger because we knew that he couldn't do anything about it. Then when mum would come in to tell us off, we would put on the guilt trips and get away with it.. (mum did wise up after some time)... We would have respected him more if he "had a place" in the household... He is a wonderful guy and has always been there for my mum..but, when we were kids, things would have been better if he could have also disciplined us..

Once a child realises that mummies boyfriend/husband (step dad) isn't allowed to tell them off then, they will use that to their advantage. They will set him up, hassle him etc, knowing that he can't do anything about it... THis then causes difficulties with the relationship because, guess who mummy believes? her kids.. So step dad always comes off second best..

"my kids don't need a father, they already have one" is also saying.. I've had a husband and I don't want another.. Stay away from me at all costs because if you don't, your life will be miserable.

That line is a cover for
poor relationship between her and her ex
controlling ex who says, no man will be my kids step dad..
and so on..

If you see that in a profile, leave her for the next sucker.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 35
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/16/2009 11:52:51 PM

The above assumptions you have mentioned as being what that statement is a "cover" for couldn't be any more wrong when it comes to my circumstances. And yet I am one of *those* women who does have a statement in my profile that lets men know that the children's father has an active role in his children's life. I am lead to believe that what, if any role the children's father plays is something a potential mate wants to know about. It is certainly something that every man I have dated has asked about. So making a comment on it in my profile gives them some initial information.

It wasn't an assumption. What is an assumption is suggesting that I projected that about all single mothers..
Like I said, I would not want to be with someone with that attitude or that line in their profile. To be "partners", then, it's partners with everything and still respecting that they have a dad.. So what, while your out and your new husband is home with your kids, he's expected to call their dad over to sought them out if needed? You can't have a relationship/marriage where one can do this and the other can't do it.. There is nothing wrong with giving the kids time out, taking something off them etc. Where the line is drawn is physical punishment which I would agree, that it is not the place of a step parent.

I've been in a relationship where basically it felt like "me and them".. Mum and her kids and me.. Sorry, but, if you want a family/marriage to work, each person needs to feel accounted for and has a place in the family.
It's almost like, A company gets a new manager, the employee's say, sorry, we don't have to listen to you because your not our real boss, he's no longer with us so we can do what we like..

Women/men that don't accept their new partner into the family and run the relationship as a family will not have very successful relationships. I don't know anyone that would live in a house where there was a divide..Think about the words "partnership, marriage" they mean a "team, equals".. if there is not equality, there wil be no relationship..

I laugh at that comment about assumptions.. So because I have experienced something, it's an assumption..
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 36
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/17/2009 1:41:42 AM

I called it an assumption because your statement about what that "line" is a "cover" for was defnitive and unqualified.

You must have missed the "and so on" meaning there are many more meanings of the statement. Unqualified? How can you "assume" that? You don't know what my qualifications are, you don't know my experiences and those of people I speak to and observe.

I stand by my comment that.. Yes, if that statement is in their profile then it does mean some or all or the "and so on"..

You appear to imply that the notion of making a statement around a bio father's role in their child's life extrapolates out to her not allowing her new partner to have an appropriate role in his family or in the lives of her child/ren if a relationship were to come of dating her.

Yep, sure do.. Especially if it is worded exactly like that "my kids don't need a father, they already have one".. If you can not see the underlying attitude, then, you are blind or naive.
There are other ways of saying the same thing without the attitude.. Like maybe.. My children's father plays and active and positive role in their lives. My children have a father who is involved and active in their lives..My children have a great father in their lives but, a positive male around them on a daily basis would be to their benefit..

The comment "they don't need a father, they already have one" suggests a division from the get go. Whether you like it or not, that is how many "men" read that comment. If you don't want to accept that, then, that's your choice. Yet again, it's the same old thing.. The opposite sex explains how they interpret or feel about something and the other sex says they are wrong.. Common problem which often leads to break-ups.

It's the way it is expressed.. There are many other ways that express the same thing but without the negativity attached..

Like I said, I've been there, I've witnessed it with others and I have knowledge of things like this from my education.. But hey, what would I know.. I'm "unqualified" in your opinion.. That's funny.. I like that.. Yet again, you go on about assumptions yet, you make plenty of your own.. Do not assume what you don't know..

If I marry a women then, she becomes apart of the family (my daughter and me).. If she wasn't willing to play an active role then, I would not be interested in her.. Yes, my daughter has a mother but, she is not here all the time. My new wife would not be my daughters mother and nor would she replace her but, she would be a positive influence in my daughter life and I would expect her to correct my daughter if she was out of line.. When I am at my friends house, if my daughter is out of line and I am not in the same room, I'm quite ok for my friends wife or my mates to tell her off.. I only associate with people I trust and pretty much all of them have kids and we all hold the same values. So, I trust my daughter is safe in their care.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 37
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/17/2009 2:23:43 AM
Pointless.. I can see your the type to go on and on and on..
So, I'll leave it at that..
By the way, I don't need a chill pill, I'm not worked up.. I'm one to smile at people like you and thank God that I can close the page..
After all, it's quite understandable that you would "defend" the statement because as you said, you have it in your profile..

Why don't you start a thread that says..
What do men think when they read this in a profile "my kids don't need a father, they already have one".
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 38
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/17/2009 2:37:50 AM
Not one that specifically asks men what they think about it..
I've done a search and there are similar ones to this and ones asking women why on earth they would put that in their profile..
So, your not as funny as you think you are.. But then again, some people like to think they are legends in their own mind ;)
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 39
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/17/2009 3:02:48 AM
Alright.. I think its time to call it I can't go to sleep on a disagreement..
But, a specific question like I suggested would get different men posting replies etc.. This thread isn't specifically targeted at the question "what do men think of that comment"..
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 40
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/18/2009 4:27:05 PM

They must have joint custody then because most dads who get screwed by the every other weekend deal split.

Have to disagree with that comment. I think it's more like "some split"..

As hard as it is for these fathers (every other weekend), they still have a valuable input into their kids life. The ones that don't have much input into their kids lives are the ones with attitude like you presented above. If you put the time in and make the time you have a quality experience for the kids, then, you will have impact.

Not sure about where you live but, in Australia, the CSA encourages 50/50 share of the children. This is to ensure (well try) that the kids get the best from both worlds under the circumstances. I'm pretty sure that many other countries are adopting this approach.

When you say that men choose not to see their kids because they don't want to be a baby sitter for their ex, your really saying.. Some men who are bitter and resentful toward their ex's will punish their kids by refusing to have them stay over or visit. These men/women need to get over that and enjoy what time they do have with their kids and as time goes by, work toward more time or a 50/50 share arrangement. Being negative and revengeful doesn't help anyone, especially not the kids.

It sounds like you have had a bad experience, but, you can not project that onto "every" or "most" men and women. It's a shame you think that way because your kids are missing out...
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 41
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/19/2009 5:08:49 AM

Its true that most ncp's who get every other weekend bail out and rarely see thier kids.

If your going to continually claim that "most" ncp's do this, then, also quote some evidence to back up your claim. I think you will find, if you do your research properly through reliable and valid sources, your "most" will dwindle to "some"...

Ncp's frequently bail out on visitation, when they only see thier kid 4 days a month to them its not worth it to deal with their nasty ex and the power and control they have over them by using the children as pawns.

If they truly love their kids, any parent would walk through hell if it meant being able to see their kids.

As time goes by work towards a 50-50 arrangement"

if that was the case the other parent would have offered it from the start not been a control freak and dangle the children in front of the ncp like a carrot on a stick and said ok do what I want and maybe i'll consider letting you spend more time with your children someday. If they had any intention of letting thier ex have joint custody they would have offered it from the start and not humilated them and made them suffer.

You are making all these claims but, you have never been in these situations because as you pointed out.. You don't have kids.. There are many cases that start out with minimal visitation because both parents are still at war with each other. There is still open wounds, resentment, anger, revengeful attitudes etc. After time, these attitudes and behaviour cool down and the parents begin to act civil toward each other. Then they renegotiate a new deal and more access is allowed.. So your idea there is a little flawed.

Maybe you should put it something like.. "most dead-beat parents bail out and don't bother" "most parents who love their children will do what they have to in order to spend time with their kids."

You are making some wild assumptions without providing any evidence to back them up. The men/women you are talking about who bail out of their parenting because they only get a weekend a fortnight would probably do the same thing even if they had more time. Like I said, parents who love their kids will do anything to see them, even if it means jumping through hoops..

But, I do agree that "some" men get dragged through the ringer, belittled, slandered, dragged through court, become financially strapped etc and eventually get to a point where they simply feel helpless because all the odds seem stacked againts them, so, they put their flag up and give in. They don't want to abandon their kids but, they get to a point where they are depressed, broke, and basically emotionally and physically worn out and make the hardest decision they could ever make and choose not to see their kids so they can avoid the ex all together..
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 42
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/23/2009 7:36:18 PM

my kids don't need a father, they already have one
what they need is a role model
can't anyone be honest and include this?!!

Actually, that's exactly what my profile says and has said from the begining.
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 43
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/25/2009 6:34:43 AM
um, ur efin retarded if your simple mind really and truely believes what you just typed. My children have the best relationship with their DADDY! and no, they don't need another one...because the one they have is an awesome DADDY. It takes time and trust to let another man discipline you kids. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it does take time. a man can't just rush into telling your babies what to do or not to do. get over it!
Joined: 6/18/2008
Msg: 44
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/25/2009 6:39:18 AM

never assume, it only makes and ass out of YOU and me. and that seems to be all you "men" are doing, is assuming. have you ever been a single parent? did you really and truely want another woman stepping in and trying to take your kids mothers place? NO! unless the other parent is just completely out of the picture, there is no need for it.

Joined: 9/22/2005
Msg: 45
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/26/2009 8:19:50 AM
OMG!!! Talk about drama!!! I think I would like to add my two cents to the topic here... I have 2 children, by 2 different men so my situation covers a bit of both sides. My daughter's father, (sperm donor, whatever you want to call him), and myself were together for 2 1/2 years, engaged and I was 8 months pregnant when he decided he wanted to sleep with other people. Needless to say, I was smart and got out of that situation before it got any worse. He has since remarried, 6 months after we broke up, and my daughter is now 13 years old. He hasnt seen her in at least a year, only does see her when I take her to HIS mothers house for holidays and he only calls and fills her head with BS about him taking her on vacations and letting her visit him and then he NEVER shows up. He has fought paying any kind of child support and only pays $35.30 a week which was garnished because of his failure to pay for over 10 years.

My sons father and I were together for over 2 years as well and because he refused to get any help for anger management or drug abuse or any kind of counseling, we split up as well. My son is now 8 years old and he does see his father almost every weekend, except when he has plans, but he does not pay child support. (he has started to go to meetings for the abuse)

In my eyes, I do not persue the child support for my son because his dad at least attempts to make some time to spend with his son. He has, at times, bought some clothes for school or tried to help with uniform fees for his sports. He has showed up to support our son at his games sometimes too. My daughter's father has never been to any of her practices, games, school preformances, or birthday parties. He has basically "written her off" because he now has a new family. I guess some of you will look at that as my being a b@*h and just trying to make him pay, but that isnt the case. I want him to realize there is someone that he helped bring into this world and you cant just give up on them and say I dont feel like being responsible anymore. It isnt about the money because Lord knows I have been taking care of them for the most part solely by myself since birth and, if you have children, you know $35 doesnt go all that far with them. I want them to spend time with their children because they will effect their lives and who they are as a person and how they interact with others in adult relationships.

I am NOT looking for a man to support me and my kids for the rest of our lives. I am NOT looking for a man to be my kids' father. I have my own job, house and I pay all my own bills. I never was the "stay at home" mom. I would go absolutely nuts if I never had to work for anything. I AM looking for a man that loves children and can accept a single mother that does have full custody of her 2 children and can be a male "rolemodel" for my son and some kind of male figure for my daughter to appreciate so she knows, going into adulthood, that not all men are like her father was. Would he be accepted as a "father" to them?? Who knows?? They know who their fathers are biologically but it wouldnt hurt to have a father figure around full time for them and someone to make mommy happy as well. It all depends on the relationship, how things work out, and what everyone is comfortable with.
Joined: 6/14/2009
Msg: 46
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 12/29/2009 7:39:05 PM
i will admit this did anger me quite a bit.... i myself and a single mom with 2 children at 21 who screwed up royally, got mixed up with a bad relationship and am now making the best of it.... i will say with confidence that my children do not need a father even though they do not have one.... it would be nice for them to have a male role model in their live... someone to teach them baseball etc.... but i think i am doing a pretty good job on my own.... my children will grow up to be strong and independent with bright futures just as i am making for myself.....i also do not want a man to support me as that would feel extremely degrading after working so hard for myself.... yes extra money for nice things is better but that should never be the main reason for a woman to get into a relationship no matter how many kids she has.... hwoever i do see how a man would get offended by that statement... if a man and woman are to be in a relationship long term and there are children involved, that man should be able and be willing to take on the step-parent role for the children whether they have an active father figure in their lives or not....the "husband shopping" thing is particularyly offensive... that statement makes me feel like you stereotype single moms into being desperate and that men are in high demand and short supply.... well let me tell you something.... i would rather be with a woman with 10 kids and not alot of money than with a man with those i have never been married because i am picky about the relationships i get into because of the past and i am protective of my children but that does not make me inexperienced..... if being married twice makes you experienced then maybe you should think twice about what went wrong in those situations and learn from them, only then you can call yourself truly experienced.... im sorry that you probably had to pay childsupport and lost your house and what not from the end of that little rant but not all women are like that so stereotyping is not the best idea
Joined: 9/22/2005
Msg: 47
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 1/2/2010 7:35:07 AM
Good job @ boredmama... exactly what I was trying to get at...
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 48
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 1/2/2010 11:35:01 PM

I remember when I was starting to date my current gf, she said specifically "i am not looking for a baby's daddy or anything". Fast forward 6 months later and she starts to ask me to help change the diaper, put her to bed, buy food, and other fatherly duties. I am not bothered to do these things, but now she starts expecting them without question. Yet, when it comes to discipline she quickly reminds me that I am not needed in that role.

The other aspect is that since her baby's daddy is the typical deadbeat convict who does not see his child, she considers her grandpa as a satisfactory father figure. Now mind you, her grandpa heavily spoils the child, which is every grandpa's right. However, I am thinking in the future. How is this kid going to grow up spoiled? Coupled with her mother giving praise for every single thing she does, the little girl is going to think she is God's only gift to the earth. Yeah, i know people raised like that and they are painful people to be around with.

Of course I try my hand at discipline, however only in my house, as they are my rules. the kid has free reign at her mom's house (who lives with grandpa) and does whatever she wants. Thats her house so i have no say, but when the kid starts to bite holes in my chairs, i have to lay down the law. Of course I am the bad guy because I enforce my rules and discipline. Then the mom conviently informs me that i am not entitled to be a father figure and discplinarian, and should not have scolded her.

So i gues the moral of the story is that you will be a "father" figure when it benefits her. otherwise, expect the kid to pretty much run your house, her house, and frankly the relationship

^^^^^Boyfriends don't discipline... husbands/common law husbands discipline. You're crossing the line. It seems the mother isn't a very mature person.... good luck with that.
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 49
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 1/3/2010 5:41:12 AM
Like Itsallinthesoul said, talk to your GF and see what she has to say..
Nothing worse than living in a house where you get undermined, especially when it's your own property. I've been there and it doesn't get better, it gets worse.

It's impossible to live as a family if your not allowed to contribute to discipline. If the child needs a time out, then, you should be able to give them one. If the mother disagree's with your time out, she shouldn't pull you up in front of the kid..

Doesn't sound like a fair relationship your in.. One can only wonder why you stay?
Joined: 7/2/2008
Msg: 50
my kids don't need a father, they already have one
Posted: 1/4/2010 4:48:30 AM
Few things
- unless a woman has actually gone to the sperm bank and got some anonymous sperm to father her baby, she should probably never say 'sperm donor.' Bad father or not, you actually did make a conscious decision to have good ol' fashion sex with full blood male - he donated some sperm, you an egg, and you had a baby. He's biological father, not 'sperm donor.'

2nd - 'My kids don't need a father, they already have one.' I get the sentiment, but wouldn't it be more wise and accurate to say 'My children already have a (loving) father that they get along well with, but it is an open role that you too can gladly step into.' Why can't child have more than one loving parent and parental figure in their life? Why does a bio father have to step back and allow for a stepparent to take over? With some diligence and discussion, why can't coparenting include more than 2 parents?

What's interesting, is that I never see or heard the line from men 'My kids don't need a mother, they already have one.' Seems to me that men are more than willing to let the right woman come along and take a load off of their hands with the single parenting and allow her to raise his kids. What's so hard when it comes to the opposite?

Are we talking about things like one believes in corporal punishment and the other doesnt? Or something else entirely?
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