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Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 46
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspectivePage 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
The baby I talked about that positively lit up with adult recognition , you would say was just looking vaguely around in wonder ? No it was not wonder .. I have raised 3 babies and I know what you are talking about but I also know you are wrong ... the child wanted to come to me . he knew me . I say again he knew me . And this has happened to me with other people and children . Bury yourself in your books and be in your comfort zone and forget about outrageous claims of a child seeming to recognise an adult . Do not ever hypothesise .. this could endanger your warm fuzzy zone .
Joined: 7/24/2009
Msg: 48
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/23/2009 8:26:12 PM
Yep, in an infinite universe, there would also be an infinite amount of "quasi-you" lol (and super parrot galactic emperors). And the yous that are generated through quantum randomness will probably pop-up in hostile environments and die pretty quick lol. I hope at some point a me with superpowers will be generated haha...

I don't see how all this weird stuff is an argument against infinity though. All the conscious things in the universe would still notice pretty much the same amount of weirdness we observe right now.

Fun discussion!
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 51
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/23/2009 9:13:27 PM
Well then prove that it is 'unfalsifyable'... prove it .. Hypothesise that it could be true and then move with scientific method from that point . I came here to learn , not to 'get a lesson' from you . You don't think outside the box and this is not the way forward for science . Your comfort zone ? what I meant is just that .. that you don't move from an opinion of your own to the possibility that there may be more to the issue .
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 53
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/23/2009 9:35:11 PM
But what if 'nothing' were in fact 'something' ...... how do you define 'nothing' .. is it in respect to 'something' else or is it just 'nothing' about which we as yet don't know anything ?
Joined: 7/24/2009
Msg: 57
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/23/2009 10:47:44 PM

So, all those bizarre things should have already happened!! I already should have been recreated with your memories. Also, i should have been created an infinite amount of times by now...sometimes on the surface of an asteroid (to die instantly), other times inside the belly of my parrot. And if those things happened, then, by default, some of those "me"s. would really be me. I should have those memories. (its infinite, so it should have happened)

But i dont have those memories. If the past went to infinity, then, by definition, i should.

Humm, even if an infinite past has already happened, it doesn't say anything about you. It simply means that at some point a version of you with those memories existed. Simply consider yourself an imperfect copy of that being (one amongst an infinity.) That other versions of you exist in the past or the future doesn't change anything. There is no mechanism that transfers memories from one similar being to another.
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 65
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:07:03 PM
Poster98 ........ of COURSE I must accept that possibility . As I said the whole experience was so different to other reactions from children .. it'seemed ' adult and I can't renege on this ! My reaction was one of equal delight but as Greg has in his usual casually knowledgeable way explained , my reaction was subjective and without this explanation I would never have concluded that I was having a subjective reaction . Nobody has 'falsified' by proof that it could not happen , this concept of reincarnation .
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 67
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/24/2009 9:14:20 PM
I too respect you Greg for your consistency alone . We are now talking about floating outside of our bodies are we ? I can't help there ... but as a subjective experience I canimagine it might be worth remembering . It of course would help for someone else who was not floating to witness the act . Sadly there was no one with me of my family to see this baby ... they would have immediately recognised the child's expression , resemblance to my brother who died too early years before . Oh man , am I for it now .
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 68
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/25/2009 1:26:11 AM
Oh dear .. incipient ulceration of the stomach lining . You try too hard to maintain your position of being an expert in being an expert. Take it easy as Tom Petty says . Greg ... I am interested in explanations of those things I have not the expertise to fully comprehend ... that's all ... this can not threaten Scientific method .All I am asking is the tried and tested Scientific knowledge ,if any , about the possibility so far about reincarnation ... and incidentally about the nature of 'nothingness' . It is a mystery , say what you will . I haven't the tools to investigate it but one day I believe we will ..... and nothing in Science was ever achieved without belief in an answer .
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 73
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/26/2009 1:46:14 AM
It's true what you say poster 125 ... I used to fill spare time with watching DVDs and I still love the technical aspects of film making and acting and script writing and camera angles and all that goes with this form of entertainment and also is intellectually stimulating ... but since I started delving headfirst into scence/philosophy I have found my mind racing and stimulated [ and my love of a good detective novel also involved] . Evolution , reincarnation ... potent stuff ! I wish I had been allowed to continue studying math and trig and algebra at school , so I wouldn't be so slow in reaching for the answers here .
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 95
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/2/2009 5:09:56 PM
Op: I think you are on the right track until you get into consciousness. Our "energy" never actually dies but changes shape and purpose. So in that sense, we are indeed reincarnated however, there is no real proof that any part of what is known as our consciousness goes with it.

I think of it like this, our consciousness seems extremely important because of our perspective. However, during the period when our bodies are decomposing etc. our perspective has changed and it really is the energy that is most important.

It's kind of like thinking cake is really important to your life until you get to a point of food insecurity then nutrition becomes more important. You realize that the cake never really was that important but just extra gravy on your life platter.

That's kind of how I feel about our "soul". People combine energy and consciousness when its probably more the case of energy influencing consciousness.
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 96
view profile
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/2/2009 9:33:15 PM
Alas, as much as I'd like to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, we're all worm food when the lights go out.

I hope I'm wrong (edit: even if it means I suffer for eternity for choosing poorly). I'm pretty sure I'm right, and I'm not such a coward as to take any variant of Pascal's Wager just to make myself feel better.
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 98
view profile
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/4/2009 3:01:03 AM

Address Posts Not Posters Else It Will Be Closed along with the Flamers!

Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 100
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/12/2009 12:41:30 AM

am not right but God is... how could the Creator of everything in existence be bored?... what with running heaven and the universe and all ..

Yeah, and sitting around wondering who created Him would keep him occupied for quite a while I'm guessing. Not sure how reincarnation fits into the Judeo-Christian Bible tho.
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 101
view profile
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/12/2009 9:05:22 PM
I've heard from lots of different sources that current scientific theory is that there are lots more dimensions than the ones we can see. Consciousness may simply be held in some of those extra dimensions.
Joined: 3/5/2011
Msg: 103
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 5/7/2011 4:06:36 PM
I have really no idea if reincarnation is possible...thou i am doing many
experiments in this life...i have to get it right if there is an afterlife.

I have hypothesized, therrized and tested various genders and concluded
that none of them have been very God like
Joined: 2/14/2011
Msg: 104
view profile
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 3/13/2012 5:41:52 PM
energy, like matter, cannot be created or destroyed...only transmuted---Roger Penrose has some thoughts about this inherent in his theory of the quantum soul...
Joined: 11/13/2011
Msg: 105
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 3/15/2012 4:49:25 AM
People believe in all shorts of weird ideas,,Life just IS, no more, no less.It is up each one of us to create a meaning for the life we live in. We humans have climbed close to the top of the highest mountain of knowledge, but as we try to reach the top of that mountain, we are always greeted by a bunch of priests who have all the answers.
Fortunately these days they only know what happened before the Big Bang.
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 106
view profile
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/5/2012 5:30:43 PM
"US" it would depend on what you mean. If you're going to define your existence as pertaining to all the atoms that were once apart of your body, then you're probably spread about the world already. Skin flakes that come off you have already passed through the air. Maybe a dust mite ate some of your skin and you know live as the guy who started this thread and as baby dust mites?
But, what about things that aren't even alive? Would they also count as "you" as well?
Generally, I would define my existence as my consciousness. If I am able to think then I exist.
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 107
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/10/2012 1:25:04 AM
the sliver lining,

reincarnation is not philosophical; it's based in religion and mysticism. furthermore, outside of the lens of science; testibility, falsifiability, and the scientific method. with that that said, i think what you are looking for, is 'Naturalistic Pantheism'. the way that 'Naturalistic Pantheism' would relate to reincarnation;[ i'm not going to explain pantheism] is that matter/energy can not be created nor destroyed, in that sense, we are all just recycled matter/energy. [i use matter/energy based on general relativity]

but yeah, there's your scientific scrutinization, YAY!!! as well, an actual philosophy we can discuss. i suggest starting with Spinoza if you would like to discovery more. happy hunting :)

Joined: 11/20/2009
Msg: 108
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/10/2012 9:38:37 PM

absurd to even use the words "reincarnation" and "scientific" in the same sentence

galaxy15 has done it without sounding absurd.

"There is no scientific perspective of reincarnation.
Science has not fused the necessary disciplines to understand the concept - or for that matter detect any proof of reincarnation,"
Joined: 10/22/2006
Msg: 110
view profile
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/12/2012 2:14:29 PM
i like to suggest that so called ' junk dna' may

carry the mechanism that transmit specific consciousness and
life experience to a new body.
Joined: 3/20/2012
Msg: 111
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/12/2012 5:28:26 PM
"Would it make sense that as we decompose, and return to the earth so to speak parts of us are eventually absorbed by other humans (or other living things). Living things divert those pieces of us into creating new offspring that in turn are concentrated in to a consciousness that is only minutely "us", and minutely parts of others things that have lived (life as we know it: animals, plants). As a result we individually, and simultaneously experience this as our own new conciousness. It may be that it all combines to be one. I don't know. Is this completely illogocal?"

-No. Once the brain is gone, memory goes with it. Ask an alzeimer's patient, or anyone who has been reincarnated if they remember their past life. The only way for the mind to inheret anything is psychological because the brain needs to grow off of the basic building blocks. I'll admit though even though this is obviously true, it does conflict with a spiritual perspective.
Joined: 4/9/2012
Msg: 112
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/16/2012 9:56:09 PM
To understand how crazy ideas come up and get believed in, one need only go to various forums and read on any topic which involves, god, religion, ghosts, bigfoot, aliens or anything else that is impossible to prove as a negative.

Entire human cultures will take nutty ideas like Zeus or a wold that sits on the back of a giant turtle and believe it like there is absolutely no chance it isn't an absolute. In other words, the human mind can be shaped into believing anything.

It still remains that thoughts, personal history, personality are all created by an incredibly complex machine of a brain. A "soul" as it is described by most people is an "image" of these traits. Like a program sitting on a disk. Like a file. The question of this thread is basically asking, can this file/image be transferred to the surrounding environment and stored until it is then reanimated in another human or animal or tree or ghost. There is, to date, absolutely no evidence of any kind that such a transfer would be able to take place or that there is any mechanism for this image to be stored outside the mind which it was constructed in.

Also, when people speak of the soul and afterlife, the image seems to retain it's personality. Something which would serve absolutely no purpose in a non physical world. Another problem is the filing system. Suppose you are buried in a graveyard and your "soul" seeps into the ground. Highly unlikely that a ground filled with all these people is going to keep that all strait. No more DNA or physical boundaries, seems like it would all muddle up together. After all you can only fit so many different radio waves in a band before they start effecting each other. When people talk about ghosts and such they always speak of "waves" and "energies" and "vibrations." Unfortunately they obviously have zero experience dealing with such things cuz any good Ham radio operator can tell you that those bandwidths get clogged up pretty fast. It's like taking all different colors of light and turning them on at once, Eventually yer just gonna get white. (bad analogy but you get the picture)

As a person who has been dead twice now, I can say with 100% honesty that (for me) there was absolutely nothing there. Not so much as a dream or a flash of light. I would assume this has a lot to do with my lack of belief that an after life exists in any form. Still, I know someone who, in a near death experience, remembers vividly seeing her dead grandmother in the room. This is a person who spent a lot of time in church. Given that the mind can create lucid dreams and various hallucinations, it seems quite plausible that her mind could build on her belief system under duress and create that moment for her.

So it's impossible to prove there is no afterlife. It's easy to show there is no known physical mechanism to facilitate it and one doesn't seem to loom on the horizon. As for the people who say why bother spending any effort discussing it, I think the effort isn't completely wasted in that the afterlife is almost always used as evidence, threats, bait or rewards regarding religion. Though I don't really care what anyone believes as far as religion, once the religion starts trying to push it's influence on government, then it's extremely important to point out that religion is based upon complete fabrications of the mind. None of which can be proven. Not Christ, Not Mohammad, Not the Mormons or Scientology. It's all nothing but hearsay at it's core, 1st day, self proclaimed prophet claim of holiness.

That's why the discussion of afterlife is always a valid one. So that people understand that religion is a choice. A choice which for much of history, was mandated by threat of death and at this point in time there is a claim of freedom which is constantly under siege by those who want religion running the government according to one "holy" book or another.

You cannot have a free country if the government bans any religion. You cannot have a free government if any religions gains control over the government. Freedom under one belief system is not freedom :) So if there is reincarnation..... I was obviously, at one time Thomas Paine >:)
Joined: 2/2/2011
Msg: 113
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/23/2012 10:39:45 AM
^^^Interesting, thanks for sharing your experience.

I've drowned before and watched from above as my body was being carried out of the water. I was able to accurately describe who carried me out, how far into the water they went etc. While there was no fear and after I got over the awe of how beautiful the park was from up where I was, it turned into frustration of wanting to be on the ground with my friends. This led to a facination of the afterlife for me.

I've pondered reincarnation and thought from a scientific viewpoint that it could be possible that we inherit a genetic memory from our ancestors, similar to how animals know without being taught.

For example, if a person had an ancestor who worked in a castle during the medieval times and inherited that dna along with the memories, it would explain why one would have flashbacks to that time.

I believe there is something to reincarnation because in conversations with young children they have described to me knowlege and experiences that are too accurate to be imagination.
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