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 nevaagin
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 65
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspectivePage 3 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Poster98 ........ of COURSE I must accept that possibility . As I said the whole experience was so different to other reactions from children .. it'seemed ' adult and I can't renege on this ! My reaction was one of equal delight but as Greg has in his usual casually knowledgeable way explained , my reaction was subjective and without this explanation I would never have concluded that I was having a subjective reaction . Nobody has 'falsified' by proof that it could not happen , this concept of reincarnation .
 nevaagin
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 67
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/24/2009 9:14:20 PM
I too respect you Greg for your consistency alone . We are now talking about floating outside of our bodies are we ? I can't help there ... but as a subjective experience I canimagine it might be worth remembering . It of course would help for someone else who was not floating to witness the act . Sadly there was no one with me of my family to see this baby ... they would have immediately recognised the child's expression , resemblance to my brother who died too early years before . Oh man , am I for it now .
 nevaagin
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 68
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/25/2009 1:26:11 AM
Oh dear .. incipient ulceration of the stomach lining . You try too hard to maintain your position of being an expert in being an expert. Take it easy as Tom Petty says . Greg ... I am interested in explanations of those things I have not the expertise to fully comprehend ... that's all ... this can not threaten Scientific method .All I am asking is the tried and tested Scientific knowledge ,if any , about the possibility so far about reincarnation ... and incidentally about the nature of 'nothingness' . It is a mystery , say what you will . I haven't the tools to investigate it but one day I believe we will ..... and nothing in Science was ever achieved without belief in an answer .
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 69
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/25/2009 1:29:49 AM
I didn't read all of the posts yet on this one so I'm just starting from scratch.


Would it make sense that as we decompose, and return to the earth so to speak parts of us are eventually absorbed by other humans.
....
As a result we individually, and simultaneously experience this as our own new conciousness.


Your question confuses me (an easy thing to I must say). Are you asking did part of our conciousness survive and pass on to another human being? Is that tiny percentage of our consciousness representative of the whole of our consciousness such that it is holographic in nature so that one tiny particle of it can well represent the whole? 'Dunno about that. Are you saying our consciousness somehow remains in our body and decomposes along with it? That seems to be your first assumption.

No. I don't believe the consciousness gets buried with and is somehow identified with the parts remaining (burned, decomposed or otherwise destroyed). I don't buy that theory at all.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 70
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/25/2009 3:12:49 AM

but ive never felt like a parsley.. but then I have no clue how parsley feels..


And you certainly don't look like a parsley either :). But maybe that's why they say you are what you eat?



I understand your fears in letting go of your beliefs. I understand the conflict you have in believing that the devil is encouraging you to question your faith. I once had the same fears. I was born and raised in a strict Christian faith. It took me a long time to let go, but I did, and I discovered that I am still a good person. I give and help people. I do what ever I can to protect the earth, and nature. Probably more than most people. I am continually in awe of the beauty of nature and the universe. And when I die I am perfectly prepared to meet whatever God there may or not be knowing that how I lived was logical and moral. Because any God there may be, will certainly be logical and moral.


Bill Maher's comment (to the same effect) [and I'm paraphrasing] when he said "...I came from a strong religious background too, and I believed, that is, until the age of reason". That pretty much sums it up.

nevaagin I have to agree with you, not only because I experienced the very same thing under very odd circumstances, but becase I'm reminded of Benjamin Disraeli who said "it's a wise man who knows nothing". I think he speaks to us eloquently. That's what turns me off to discussions with scientists. They know what they know and what they don't know, no one else can possibly know. You're right though, they're thinking from within the confines of a strictly defined box. To me, nothing is impossible. Period! We simply don't know nearly enough to know what we don't know.


So far you have shown nothing even remotely resembling valid logic or scientific thinking. You are one of those posters that is beyond reason or convincing. Please move on.


Unless I'm in error, this is the science/PHILOSOPHY forum is it not? Is there room for no one's thoughts but yours? With that attitude, I think you should move on.


but for some reason no one have EVER been able to test an out of body experience. You should be able to easily if they are real. Just put a huge, neon word near the ceiling. If they are real, it would be seen. At least sometimes. Nope, the reason its subjective is because its not real. Thats the only reason.


Actually, there were scientific tests of out of body experiences similar to what you've described. I'll have to google it (it's been a long time) but they tied subjects down to a bed (those who claimed to be able to leave their bodies) and left certain numbers/pictures/signs written on paper on a ledge above their beds where they could not physically reach the paper. They were televised all night and constantly monitored. Some of those subjects were very accurate in what they were able to see while in a dream state. Now if you accept that as "scientific" enough for your purposes, then you have it. I'll try to find the study but it's been years since I read it.


I'm interested in truth.


No. You're only interested in your truth as if it were the only truth in existence. And yes you do mock people. Are you that insecure in what you think you know about the nature of reality that you have all the answers? You don't even have all the questions.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 72
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/25/2009 11:19:51 PM
Just as an aside, I just heard Ted Kennedy died of brain cancer. R.I.P.
 nevaagin
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 73
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 8/26/2009 1:46:14 AM
It's true what you say poster 125 ... I used to fill spare time with watching DVDs and I still love the technical aspects of film making and acting and script writing and camera angles and all that goes with this form of entertainment and also is intellectually stimulating ... but since I started delving headfirst into scence/philosophy I have found my mind racing and stimulated [ and my love of a good detective novel also involved] . Evolution , reincarnation ... potent stuff ! I wish I had been allowed to continue studying math and trig and algebra at school , so I wouldn't be so slow in reaching for the answers here .
 GGarbo
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 95
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/2/2009 5:09:56 PM
Op: I think you are on the right track until you get into consciousness. Our "energy" never actually dies but changes shape and purpose. So in that sense, we are indeed reincarnated however, there is no real proof that any part of what is known as our consciousness goes with it.

I think of it like this, our consciousness seems extremely important because of our perspective. However, during the period when our bodies are decomposing etc. our perspective has changed and it really is the energy that is most important.

It's kind of like thinking cake is really important to your life until you get to a point of food insecurity then nutrition becomes more important. You realize that the cake never really was that important but just extra gravy on your life platter.

That's kind of how I feel about our "soul". People combine energy and consciousness when its probably more the case of energy influencing consciousness.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 96
view profile
History
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/2/2009 9:33:15 PM
Alas, as much as I'd like to believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, we're all worm food when the lights go out.

I hope I'm wrong (edit: even if it means I suffer for eternity for choosing poorly). I'm pretty sure I'm right, and I'm not such a coward as to take any variant of Pascal's Wager just to make myself feel better.
 forum_moderator
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/4/2009 3:01:03 AM



Address Posts Not Posters Else It Will Be Closed along with the Flamers!


 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 99
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/11/2009 7:02:47 PM
I DO believe in an afterlife (and beforelife). But first, my background consists of 36 years in the practice of law but in college I was a math/physics major so my life has been devoted to facts and not faith. I am NOT a religious person in any way whatsoever. If I had to label myself, the label would have to be agnostic.

So, as a person who deals with facts, these are the facts that suggest an afterlife to me. Many decades ago I used to attend many lectures at UCLA. The one I found most fascinating was a PhD clinical psychologist working in San Francisco who did a two year clinical study (including hypnotic age regression studies) of 100 random "street people". Few if any of these people even graduated high school or seen the inside of a library. These were drug users, general societal dropouts who were all hypnotically regressed to past lifetimes. All, to a person, described their past lives in great detail and these details were later verified. For example, some of them were regressed to several previous lifetimes and described things, events, that only a steadfast researcher would have known. Consciously, none of them remembered any past lifetimes but under repeated hypnosis, remembered it all. They remembered family names (later verified), historical events (also verified) and many other things that this group would simply not likely be aware of.

I soon became very interested in hypnosis (to see for myself) and took several courses in it. One night, a met a guy at a party who was an engineer. We got to talking about many things (in addition to hypnosis) and, as it turned out, this man was having trouble keeping focused (his mind would drift off from time to time) at work and asked if I thought hypnosis could help. I told him I thought it could and would be willing to try it as an experiment. He agreed and the following week I hypnotised him several times. It DID wind up helping him focus with the aid of some fairly simple post hypnotic suggestions.

But we went further (with his eager permission) to do an age regression over two or three subsequent sessions that (with his permission) were all tape recorded. During those sessions, he recalled his most recent previous life as a coal miner in Kentucky. He described (named) his wife, children and other relatives. He described how he and all of his family members lived and died and his life in general in great detail. Keep in mind this person was born in New York and never even visited Kentucky and has no friends or relatives who live (or ever lived) in Kentucky.

It was a fascinating experience for both of us. Well, a couple of weeks later, my new friend had to go back east because his mother was ill and not expected to live. During the month he was back east, out of curiousity, he did some research from the various vital statistics from the State of Kentucky to find out that the people he described actually lived and how and when they died. It freaked him out so much that he called me from New York in the middle of the night to tell me what he learned.

The next area of FACT that swayed me was meeting a true psychic. This was a mind blowing experience because I was completely skeptical about the whole of psychic phenomena notion before I met this lady. The notion of "psychics" conjured up images of circuses and palm readers, tea leaves and all that entails. BUT, this woman, after simply touching something I always wear (my watch) told me several very specific things about me that she had absolutely no way of knowing.

For example, she told me where I was born (Long Island), what i did for a living, what my hobbies were, that I have three sisters, and many other specifics (NO generalities one would expect like "you're going to meet the love of your life soon", etc.).

She told me one of my favorite restaurants was called Mama Leone's in New York. This is where I thought she might've fallen down on the job because, to my knowledge, I've never been at any such restaurant and my family migrated to Los Angeles when I was about 14 months old.

So, the next day, I called my mother who was then living in Palm Springs. I asked her about that restaurant and she told me that "Oh yes. Your father and I used to go there all the time when I was pregnant with you. It was our favorite restaurant". THAT raised the hair on the back of my neck in ways you can't even imagine.

She also told me where the ring I usually wear was located (I wasn't wearing it at the time I met her). This ring was a two-toned gold puzzle ring my ex wife bought me for a birthday present. It was a Turkish engagement ring that came apart into six separate interlinked rings. Once you took it apart it was very hard to put back together unless you knew how. She described it in great detail and told me that it was hanging on a hook in my kitchen which is exactly where it was. I used to leave it there when I was washing dishes so I wouldn't drop it down the drain.

She told me that, in the future, I would be working with someone I trusted who lived in the west (San Fernando) valley. I had no clue who that might be. But six years later, I did in fact start to work with a lawyer (also another musician) who became a close friend and we've been working together successfully ever since to this day.

That episode convinced me that there absolutely IS a cosmic "consciousness" (for want of a better term) that some people can tap into. I think this information is "out there" and available to those with that specially developed gift. In fact I asked her about herself and she told me that, when she was a young child, she could do this all the time. In fact, it created so many problems for her and her family that they had to move several times because her "gift" absolutely freaked people out. As a young child, she assumed everyone could do what she was able to do and when she found out that was not the case, she stopped being so "up front" about it until years later.

So, there are many FACTS that I've used to come to the conclusion that life is an endless cycle of "lives" and that sometimes we come back as men and sometimes as women and continue to do so until we learn all of the life lessons we need to learn. I don't really care what the skeptics say because I was one of them and can only say that once you experience what I did, they'll change their tune.

Now, as a disclaimer, I'm not suggesting all psychics are the real deal. There are many frauds out there taking advantage of people at their most vulnerable moments for profit and these people are, to me, despicable. The psychic I met and talked with refused to accept money from me although I did gladly offer it after the session. There are good/honest people and liars and cheats in every business and profession and psychics are no different. But when you find the real deal, you'll know it.

I consider myself to be a fairly hard-headed individual with a "show me" attitude. Well, I was shown and, believe me, once you're shown, you know.

But one of the questions I had was, if reincarnation is true and our earthly population has grown enormously over time, where did all the extra other "souls" come from. I came to accept the notion that there are other sentient beings throughout the universe and reincarnation isn't limited to earthly "beings". Yes, I know what that sounds like but it fits and I'm perfectly comfortable with that notion and can accept it because it makes sense.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 100
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/12/2009 12:41:30 AM

am not right but God is... how could the Creator of everything in existence be bored?... what with running heaven and the universe and all ..



Yeah, and sitting around wondering who created Him would keep him occupied for quite a while I'm guessing. Not sure how reincarnation fits into the Judeo-Christian Bible tho.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 101
view profile
History
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/12/2009 9:05:22 PM
I've heard from lots of different sources that current scientific theory is that there are lots more dimensions than the ones we can see. Consciousness may simply be held in some of those extra dimensions.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 102
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 9/15/2009 4:50:44 PM
Ergo cosmic conciousness.
 forumrun4
Joined: 3/5/2011
Msg: 103
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 5/7/2011 4:06:36 PM
I have really no idea if reincarnation is possible...thou i am doing many
experiments in this life...i have to get it right if there is an afterlife.

I have hypothesized, therrized and tested various genders and concluded
that none of them have been very God like
 crguy43
Joined: 2/14/2011
Msg: 104
view profile
History
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 3/13/2012 5:41:52 PM
energy, like matter, cannot be created or destroyed...only transmuted---Roger Penrose has some thoughts about this inherent in his theory of the quantum soul...
 easydizy
Joined: 11/13/2011
Msg: 105
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 3/15/2012 4:49:25 AM
People believe in all shorts of weird ideas,,Life just IS, no more, no less.It is up each one of us to create a meaning for the life we live in. We humans have climbed close to the top of the highest mountain of knowledge, but as we try to reach the top of that mountain, we are always greeted by a bunch of priests who have all the answers.
Fortunately these days they only know what happened before the Big Bang.
 mmadkins
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 106
view profile
History
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/5/2012 5:30:43 PM
"US" it would depend on what you mean. If you're going to define your existence as pertaining to all the atoms that were once apart of your body, then you're probably spread about the world already. Skin flakes that come off you have already passed through the air. Maybe a dust mite ate some of your skin and you know live as the guy who started this thread and as baby dust mites?
But, what about things that aren't even alive? Would they also count as "you" as well?
Generally, I would define my existence as my consciousness. If I am able to think then I exist.
 ericwashere123
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 107
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/10/2012 1:25:04 AM
the sliver lining,

reincarnation is not philosophical; it's based in religion and mysticism. furthermore, outside of the lens of science; testibility, falsifiability, and the scientific method. with that that said, i think what you are looking for, is 'Naturalistic Pantheism'. the way that 'Naturalistic Pantheism' would relate to reincarnation;[ i'm not going to explain pantheism] is that matter/energy can not be created nor destroyed, in that sense, we are all just recycled matter/energy. [i use matter/energy based on general relativity]

but yeah, there's your scientific scrutinization, YAY!!! as well, an actual philosophy we can discuss. i suggest starting with Spinoza if you would like to discovery more. happy hunting :)

ericwashere123
 lagoda
Joined: 11/20/2009
Msg: 108
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/10/2012 9:38:37 PM

absurd to even use the words "reincarnation" and "scientific" in the same sentence


galaxy15 has done it without sounding absurd.

"There is no scientific perspective of reincarnation.
Science has not fused the necessary disciplines to understand the concept - or for that matter detect any proof of reincarnation,"
 quietstorm8
Joined: 10/22/2006
Msg: 110
view profile
History
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/12/2012 2:14:29 PM
i like to suggest that so called ' junk dna' may

carry the mechanism that transmit specific consciousness and
life experience to a new body.
 Kevin554
Joined: 3/20/2012
Msg: 111
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/12/2012 5:28:26 PM
"Would it make sense that as we decompose, and return to the earth so to speak parts of us are eventually absorbed by other humans (or other living things). Living things divert those pieces of us into creating new offspring that in turn are concentrated in to a consciousness that is only minutely "us", and minutely parts of others things that have lived (life as we know it: animals, plants). As a result we individually, and simultaneously experience this as our own new conciousness. It may be that it all combines to be one. I don't know. Is this completely illogocal?"

-No. Once the brain is gone, memory goes with it. Ask an alzeimer's patient, or anyone who has been reincarnated if they remember their past life. The only way for the mind to inheret anything is psychological because the brain needs to grow off of the basic building blocks. I'll admit though even though this is obviously true, it does conflict with a spiritual perspective.
 chainsawtheclown
Joined: 4/9/2012
Msg: 112
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/16/2012 9:56:09 PM
To understand how crazy ideas come up and get believed in, one need only go to various forums and read on any topic which involves, god, religion, ghosts, bigfoot, aliens or anything else that is impossible to prove as a negative.

Entire human cultures will take nutty ideas like Zeus or a wold that sits on the back of a giant turtle and believe it like there is absolutely no chance it isn't an absolute. In other words, the human mind can be shaped into believing anything.

It still remains that thoughts, personal history, personality are all created by an incredibly complex machine of a brain. A "soul" as it is described by most people is an "image" of these traits. Like a program sitting on a disk. Like a file. The question of this thread is basically asking, can this file/image be transferred to the surrounding environment and stored until it is then reanimated in another human or animal or tree or ghost. There is, to date, absolutely no evidence of any kind that such a transfer would be able to take place or that there is any mechanism for this image to be stored outside the mind which it was constructed in.

Also, when people speak of the soul and afterlife, the image seems to retain it's personality. Something which would serve absolutely no purpose in a non physical world. Another problem is the filing system. Suppose you are buried in a graveyard and your "soul" seeps into the ground. Highly unlikely that a ground filled with all these people is going to keep that all strait. No more DNA or physical boundaries, seems like it would all muddle up together. After all you can only fit so many different radio waves in a band before they start effecting each other. When people talk about ghosts and such they always speak of "waves" and "energies" and "vibrations." Unfortunately they obviously have zero experience dealing with such things cuz any good Ham radio operator can tell you that those bandwidths get clogged up pretty fast. It's like taking all different colors of light and turning them on at once, Eventually yer just gonna get white. (bad analogy but you get the picture)

As a person who has been dead twice now, I can say with 100% honesty that (for me) there was absolutely nothing there. Not so much as a dream or a flash of light. I would assume this has a lot to do with my lack of belief that an after life exists in any form. Still, I know someone who, in a near death experience, remembers vividly seeing her dead grandmother in the room. This is a person who spent a lot of time in church. Given that the mind can create lucid dreams and various hallucinations, it seems quite plausible that her mind could build on her belief system under duress and create that moment for her.

So it's impossible to prove there is no afterlife. It's easy to show there is no known physical mechanism to facilitate it and one doesn't seem to loom on the horizon. As for the people who say why bother spending any effort discussing it, I think the effort isn't completely wasted in that the afterlife is almost always used as evidence, threats, bait or rewards regarding religion. Though I don't really care what anyone believes as far as religion, once the religion starts trying to push it's influence on government, then it's extremely important to point out that religion is based upon complete fabrications of the mind. None of which can be proven. Not Christ, Not Mohammad, Not the Mormons or Scientology. It's all nothing but hearsay at it's core, 1st day, self proclaimed prophet claim of holiness.

That's why the discussion of afterlife is always a valid one. So that people understand that religion is a choice. A choice which for much of history, was mandated by threat of death and at this point in time there is a claim of freedom which is constantly under siege by those who want religion running the government according to one "holy" book or another.

You cannot have a free country if the government bans any religion. You cannot have a free government if any religions gains control over the government. Freedom under one belief system is not freedom :) So if there is reincarnation..... I was obviously, at one time Thomas Paine >:)
 secretroots
Joined: 2/2/2011
Msg: 113
Reincarnation, from a scientific perspective
Posted: 4/23/2012 10:39:45 AM
^^^Interesting, thanks for sharing your experience.

I've drowned before and watched from above as my body was being carried out of the water. I was able to accurately describe who carried me out, how far into the water they went etc. While there was no fear and after I got over the awe of how beautiful the park was from up where I was, it turned into frustration of wanting to be on the ground with my friends. This led to a facination of the afterlife for me.

I've pondered reincarnation and thought from a scientific viewpoint that it could be possible that we inherit a genetic memory from our ancestors, similar to how animals know without being taught.

For example, if a person had an ancestor who worked in a castle during the medieval times and inherited that dna along with the memories, it would explain why one would have flashbacks to that time.

I believe there is something to reincarnation because in conversations with young children they have described to me knowlege and experiences that are too accurate to be imagination.
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