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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?      Home login  
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 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 26
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?Page 2 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

I'm looking forward to a 'scatter' of pints of guinness with a few friends later. A traditional symposium if you like, in the Greek sense, i.e. a drinking party:)

It would appear we have more in common than I previously thought.

Have one on me!...
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 27
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:48:40 AM

A traditional symposium if you like, in the Greek sense, i.e. a drinking party:)


Dionysus would be proud. Just stay away from those Maenads...

Duk, I am giving this some serious thought...I almost have it formulated in my head, as to what I want to convey.

Are we coming at this from a social infrastructural angle, or a political one? If self-actualization and compassion were already integral values of a community, what would that look like?
 ishaun
Joined: 6/20/2008
Msg: 28
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:49:38 AM
If such a place existed, there would be few humans who could cope with it, as it is against the nature of so many.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 29
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 7:42:46 AM

If self-actualization and compassion were already integral values of a community, what would that look like?

That's what I want everyone to try to visualize and venture their opinions on. Speculation regarding social & political structure (or lack thereof) is also important to consider, so feel free to do so.

What would such a society look like? How could it avoid tyranny? Could it preserve everyone's rights & freedoms?
If it was a society based on human compassion, what would their taxes pay for, or would there even be any? The questions are endless; let's try to answer some of them.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 30
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 7:44:24 AM

it is against the nature of so many.

Against the nature of what sort of people? Why would a presumably free and just society be against human nature?
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 31
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:06:27 AM
Okay...here we go.
I have spent a significant amount of time in intentional communities. I would have to say that those are some of the most self-actualized people that I know, but also the community is set up that for it to happen. It came pretty darn close to my idea of Utopia.

One of the communities I stayed with, consisted of a hundred and one people.

This is from their website:


We do not have a group religion; our beliefs are diverse. We do not have a central leader; we govern ourselves by a form of democracy with responsibility shared among various managers, planners, and committees. We are self-supporting economically, and partly self-sufficient. We are income-sharing. Each member works 42 hours a week in the community's business and domestic areas. Each member receives housing, food, healthcare, and personal spending money from the community.

Our hammocks and casual furniture business generates most of our income; indexing books and making tofu provide much of the rest. Still, less than half of our work goes into these income-producing activities; the balance goes into a variety of tasks that benefit our quality of life - including milking cows, gardening, cooking, and childcare. Most people prefer doing a variety of work, rather than the same job day in, day out.


This is my personal idea of utopia. I am sure to some people, milking a cow would be their personal nightmare.

How would this be applied on a grander scale? Comparative value and capitalism would have to go out the window, and a decentralization of the government would have to take place. It would have to be a total social/political act of restructuring, a total breakdown of the current system and agreements would have to be made, and honored.

The fact that a community like this already exists, gives me hope.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 32
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 1:25:34 PM
The problem as you mentioned is how to expand this to an entire town, state, nation .... world???


Why not have (for instance) a world of communities; or if it's a matter of scale, why not have breakdowns such as we have now, with the globe (a level 4 community) countries (level 3 communities), cities (level 2), communes (level 1). The only real reason for the divisions might be for such things as might require economy of scale (moon landings, accelerators, etc), scaled down as needed (city roads & infrastructure) to the level of say communal farms. All these "entities" could be united under the rule of unwritten (and therefore incorruptable) Natural Law, with a judicial system not unlike the one we have now, minus the statutes & precedents & feudalistic (or neo-feudalistic) holdovers like capitalism (too self-serving and allowing the corrupt too much power through economic manipulation).

95% of people are basically good, decent, somewhat compassionate people. Only the 5% of sociopaths would really have trouble with such a setup because they couldn't manipulate it as a means to power, at least not in the way they have...for centuries. If it were axiomatic that rational people be self-ruling, it would be known from the outset that there are no leaders beyond the people themselves, who could then hire administrators (instead of "representatives who make "laws") to act as genuine public servants.

Anyone who got out of line in some sort of power grab, would be taken down immediately by the community and would then have to defend himself in a court of Natural Law.

...Just a thought of course...
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 33
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 10:31:38 PM

the consensus seems to be that the old system just isn't cutting it anymore.

Excellent post! The reason I quoted your comment was to underline the intent of my "hidden agenda" here. We all know the existing system is unfair, cruel, and counterproductive, but it seems most people have been programmed to think inside a very well-defined box. How often do we hear things like "It may be awful, but it's impossible to have a society without compromising rights", "people are incapable of governing themselves", "people are basically animals (except me of course)", "a perfect society is impossible, this is the best we can do.", "are you trying to tell me I don't live in the greatest country on earth?", etc., etc.

Seems to me If I were in charge of everyone and wanted to keep them in line, propaganda like that would suit my purposes quite well. In truth I call it all bullshit! I know a garbageman who could run the entire planet better than that entire crew of thieving, corrupt pathological liars & sociopaths currently running the worlds banks, nations & corporations. Unfortunately, he doesn't want the job. He'd rather share the "throne" with everybody else. Fortunately for all of us, he did have a "Pinky & the Brain" plan for global domination by the people of the globe and it is now underway. People are even now starting to question the assumptions that have held them back and are looking for fresh ideas in societal organization. These are not entirely "Utopian" theoretical constructs. They form the basis for "phase III" of the four phase plan for a non-violent global takeover by the people.

Viva la Revolucion!!
 greg14229
Joined: 7/18/2009
Msg: 34
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 12:23:55 AM
i'll tell you guys who is damned self actualized.......probably the only real self actualized man on the whole blundering planet....this guy >>>>

that guy is so F*%#! self actualized i cant even understand nor bear it!

this twerp isnt far behind >>
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 35
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 12:32:19 AM

who wants to camp in the forest butt naked?

Don't knock it till you've tried it...I have...and it's great!
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 36
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 12:37:18 AM
You guys are making fun of me for being the tree hugging, hippie chick that I am!

Nakedness is not a sin...
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 37
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:23:24 AM

Nakedness is not a sin...

In your case, it is the greatest of virtues!...Wanna go camping?...Oh RATS, I forgot!...Ya got a man already...(Need a rubber Dukky for your tub?...Failing that, how about one for the liquor cabinet?)

Actually, in the egalitarian, communal au natural law society I envision, EVERY beautiful woman and every well stocked BAR would have a rubber Dukky. In fact, as part of my commitment to a Utopian world, I'm renting them out at reasonable rates. (sorry...it's the detestable capitalist in me; I thought I was rid of him after I saw the light and was "hatched again." I hope I haven't totally blown my "self-actualized" role. Oh, well, back to the Mother Theresa School of Self-Actualization; that woman could really "rock" when she was off duty.)

Diva...Now look what you've done to me ...I'm wrecking my own thread and it's all your fault!! I'll get you for this!...This means war!

Oh geeze...You've got me so flustered I can't even think of a way to get back on topic. what were we talking about anyway?
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 38
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 6:08:01 PM

Oh geeze...You've got me so flustered I can't even think of a way to get back on topic. what were we talking about anyway.


We were talking abou Utopia...and self-actualization.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 39
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 9:14:06 PM
Oh yes...and you mentioned that there already exist models of what I'm talking about. Well, not quite, those models won't be truly accurate until we have them under the rule of unwritten natural law along with perhaps a few contractual agreements like agreement to the terms of the communal concept of fair use of resources and a democratic process for taking care of administration (which will of course have nothing to do with rights or obligations, simply for contracted work for things like an infrastructure, or inter-community relations, etc.)
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 40
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 5:33:34 PM
You had an excellent point with this:


Why not have (for instance) a world of communities; or if it's a matter of scale, why not have breakdowns such as we have now, with the globe (a level 4 community) countries (level 3 communities), cities (level 2), communes (level 1). The only real reason for the divisions might be for such things as might require economy of scale (moon landings, accelerators, etc), scaled down as needed (city roads & infrastructure) to the level of say communal farms. All these "entities" could be united under the rule of unwritten (and therefore incorruptable) Natural Law, with a judicial system not unlike the one we have now, minus the statutes & precedents & feudalistic (or neo-feudalistic) holdovers like capitalism (too self-serving and allowing the corrupt too much power through economic manipulation).


I think this model is very applicable, and can be done on a grander scale. We used this model back when I was doing direct action, (after the whole Seattle fiasco a few years ago, we had to find some way for the varying groups to work together).

But...I have to find some way to disagree with you...since we are at war...and I will be butt-naked while I do it.
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 41
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History
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 5:58:57 PM
Second post said it right. We're too mean selfish creatures to even go to such a place the third wasn't bad about being bored. I think it would all crumble when Budhdda, Jesus, and Gandhi get into a fist fight over the concept of the "right" way of doing things. Remember that Jesus fellow had some violent out bursts. I think about whiping people in the temple.
I have to agree about the Social Stratifcation agrument. It is the enemy form without that binds us within. I would hate to live in such a place until I'm dead and I can handle such a state.
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 42
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:33:17 PM
That's the problem I'm having with the whole idea. My best hunch right now is to unify the group under a unifying ideology based on the natural laws.


And that is often the first place where people jump to. But who is to decide the unifying ideology? I was raised in existential transcendentalism. What you stated is what I was taught.

When we had to work with different groups, we discovered how very different our ideolgies were. We had the anarchist group, the earth-based spirituality group, the we-are-here-for-our-community-group, a church group, and several other factions that on the outside, all look incongruous, and as if we couldn't possibly get along.

What we found in common, was a a value system, that was based on inherent value (sorry for being redundant, can't think of another word), and once we found and connected with this, we were able to establish a foundation based on clear communication. It can sometimes take a long time to establish this. The larger the group, the more varying ideologies, the longer it may take. It takes a commitment to the process...

The common ground we established, was a commitment to social justice. That was a reflection of what we valued. The ideology behind this varied, and for the sake of actually getting something DONE, diversity was not only tolerated, but supported, as we found the things that each group was naturally good at, and how best we we could work together. (natural order and homeostasis as applied to group dynamics)

This sounds like a pretty picture doesn't it? But sometimes the process can look/feel very messy, and just when you are about to give up, something happens...

It doesn't always work. However it is more likely to work, if agreements about how such meetings should operate are made ahead of time, based upon that common value system. It can take a lot of work...

indirectly at Dukky
I suspect the OP is manipulating all of us, to even having this dialogue. I suspect he is quacking in delight...
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 43
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History
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:43:31 PM
I have one problem with this someone needs to lead or there will be chaos. What would this perfect society do? We have to think about the practical things in life, like IDK eating. We need to raise our food be it growing and perserving crops. Or raising and slaughtering livestock for food. Then their is power generation, and the labor which goes it that, be it running the plant or mining the materials. Who's social justice are we going to apply? What you may consider just may not be the same value I hold. Trust me, politics is a tricky thing. How would disagreements be handled. Remember that mean selfish thing. Our human urgues don't change but are controled. There must be a way of dealing with an impass at disagreement. What is the thing that we're trying to get DONE? I'd like to see the practical operation of this dream world. What about care for the sick, disabed...etc or are we going to apply social dynamics to them i.e. euthinasia?
 divagreen
Joined: 9/26/2008
Msg: 44
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:32:41 PM
Yaye! I get to get into a good scrap. You have made my day.



I have one problem with this someone needs to lead or there will be chaos.


I will respond to you with a post I made earlier, taken from the mission statement of an intentional community that I stayed with:



We do not have a central leader; we govern ourselves by a form of democracy with responsibility shared among various managers, planners, and committees.


Why is it that a lack of a central leader is so scary? In the group dynamics I was talking about there is an impartial facilitator. They are not allowed to vote, and their only function is to maintain that the agreement rules, negotiated ahead of time, are observed. In a Utopian self-actualized society, there might possibly exist the idea that we are our own authority, as individuals and as a whole, and are based upon a common value system: inherent human value.



What would this perfect society do? We have to think about the practical things in life, like IDK eating. We need to raise our food be it growing and perserving crops. Or raising and slaughtering livestock for food. Then their is power generation, and the labor which goes it that, be it running the plant or mining the materials.


This has been done, in small communities...the question I have always had was who was going to take care of the ROADS and the stoplights that are in between the different communities...yeah, I tend to think along the practical too.



Who's social justice are we going to apply?


The capitalists? The communists? The socialists? Who? Who? Who? The answer is the owls...
No seriously. You have a really good point. I have always maintained there are three types of power: power over, power with, and power within. Self-actualization is a process of developing power within. If everyone had power within, would they need to have that sense of power over others? Or would they not feel more empowered to have a dynamic of power with (their fellow human beings, and thus easier, to establish a foundation based upon shared communication, negotiation, and a common value system (power with)?



Trust me, politics is a tricky thing.


You are dead on here. Transparent processing is no easy thing to learn...a lot of mistakes are made...but can we entertain the idea, that once the value of it has been learned and the benefit is made clear, might not it become easier over time?



How would disagreements be handled.


Through conflict resolution, and group mediation, facilitated by an impartial individual. This person does not have power over the group, but is a servant of the group's best interest.


[quote Remember that mean selfish thing.

It has been my experience, that people act the most selfish when they feel a lack of power, and they feel that their voices go unheard.



There must be a way of dealing with an impass at disagreement.


There is. Compromise. That dirty little word, where each person, or group, sometimes walks away feeling dissatisfied. This a really good point. Let's leave this one open for discussion...
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 45
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Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:17:09 PM

We do not have a central leader; we govern ourselves by a form of democracy with responsibility shared among various managers, planners, and committees.
Why is it that a lack of a central leader is so scary? In the group dynamics I was talking about there is an impartial facilitator. They are not allowed to vote, and their only function is to maintain that the agreement rules, negotiated ahead of time, are observed. In a Utopian self-actualized society, there might possibly exist the idea that we are our own authority, as individuals and as a whole, and are based upon a common value system: inherent human value.


Pure Democracy is more dangerous than Anarchy for it give the mob cover for illwill. It is explained this way there are 3 men and 2 women the men want to rape the women, so they put it to a vote the men all vote to rape the women vote against it the men win.

I've dealt with real planners, managers, and committees and they need a leader to give direction and focus, or it desolves into partisain pettiness. Or worse quixotic episodes. So it is a non starter.



How would disagreements be handled.
Through conflict resolution, and group mediation, facilitated by an impartial individual. This person does not have power over the group, but is a servant of the group's best interest. It has been my experience, that people act the most selfish when they feel a lack of power, and they feel that their voices go unheard.


Courts are there when no mediation and compromise can be met? What is the party after being judged is still wronged will they have a system of appeal?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 46
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:20:29 PM

I have one problem with this someone needs to lead or there will be chaos

The society, in order to avoid and prevent tyranny from rearing its ungly head must of necessity be leaderless in the sense that you might normally think of it. In fact the people (the entire collective community of communities) would be "the leader". The Rule of law would be unwritten and carved in stone as it were and all members of all communes would find that the principle that binds. What remains to establish is a workable structure that preserves the "small community" feel while scaling up to global proportions.

I envision a sort of "genealogical molecule" model, with communities of perhaps 100 to about 1000 appointing say 10 or 20 "reps" to meetings of about 100 other communities, from which about 10 or 20 delegates would be selected to go to "level 3" meetings, etc. right up to the global level. Administrative bodies not unlike current parliaments could be made up of hired civil servants (without the ability to make "laws") at every level to administer the mundane business of running the various communities at the various levels.

I also see something like a social credit monetary system. It is a theoretically superior system to the one using private banks and of course the technology has existed for quite some time to handle the accounts. You guys might want to acquaint yourselves with it so I can get your opinions on it.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 47
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:28:26 PM
Pure Democracy is more dangerous than Anarchy for it give the mob cover for illwill

I don't mean to be unkind Gadget, but get with the program. Rights and obligations are preset. They are NOT on the table for discussion. EVERYone's rights remain intact and CANNOT by the very nature of the system be taken away by any "tyranny of the majority."

The only things to be democratically voted on are things like allocation of resources, for things like infrastructure. Things like abortion rights etc. would be decided by the courts on a case by case basis. Complete transparency of government and its administration is a MUST, so even the judges would be monitored by citizens who could themselves overule the judge if they believed the ruling to be unfair. I've already gone over this in the posts here and don't feel I should have to explain the entire plan to date to everyone that wants to join the discussion. I urge you (and anyone else who wants to contribute) to read all the postings on this thread before ventiring an informed opinion. Failure to do so, only results in redundancies.
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 48
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Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:29:48 PM
Duky this will be my last post for the evening. I would say your numbers are too small currently to govern the Continental US requires 584 Reps, 100 Senators, 9 Justices, 1 Executive, this is not to even talk about local governments. The various "smaller" courts. So to Govern effectively on a Global level You would need at least 10,000 people to govern the 6 populated continents. Can you imagine trying to motovate them to agree on how to govern and meet the needs of the Represented?

I am pointing out the difference between pure Democracy vs. a Representive Republic. We must take into account human nature (Hobbsian in my view) if we want an honest discussion on how things would work. No matter how civil the society crime and greed will presit because this is part of the human condition.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 49
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:44:45 PM
Can you imagine trying to motovate them to agree on how to govern and meet the needs of the Represented?

Well, we may have to break it down to more levels. In an efffort to maintain the "small" community feel, even the global meetings should probably not consist of more than maybe a hundred reps (who will be well lubricated with booze from a pre-meeting coƧtail party to boost the feelings of friendship & camaraderie) at the "policy meetings" and civil servant audits (to insure their honesty & integrity)

It should be noted that no individual should attend any consecutive meetings at any particular level. This should lessen the likelihood of stuff like cronyism, bribery & extortion as political levers, and of course the judiciary (along with the "overseer citzens" watching the adjudicators) would be present at the very public and open policy meetings to assure there is no "hanky-panky"

How are we doin' so far? comments? Suggestions?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 50
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/16/2009 9:04:44 PM
Now as a general comment... Utopia will never be achieved until everyone in society becomes perfect.

That depends on your definition of utopia.


if you have imperfect people in it, it's not gonna work

In case you haven't noticed, the primary assumption is that people are imperfect and the system must be designed to prevent a takeover by the same kind of powermad monsters that we currently have in governments today. I really wish you guys would read the earlier posts; I am getting tired of repeating myself.
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