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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?      Home login  
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 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 76
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?Page 4 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

I just don't believe this utopian society thing is possible.
In the animal kingdom, there's always the 'alpha dog'.... and humans are a part of that, whether we accept it or not.

When I was a kid in grade school there was a bully that used to terrorize all the smaller kids. A few of us got fed up with being picked on and ganged up on him & beat the snot out of him. Of course that didn't change his nature (he was still just a rotten a$$hole) but he wasn't able to scare us anymore. He'd lost his place as "master' of the schoolyard. Kids weren't afraid of him (because they knew the other kids would help if he tried to pick on them) or of "recess" anymore. You might say the schoolyard had become a "utopia" governed by the free and just society of the kids who went there. As long as the kids knew they could count on each other for help if it was needed, everything was fine.

I don't see why that can't be applied at the global level! We'll never eliminate the psychopaths presently in power, but if we want to, we can take that power away and keep them in line so people like them can never rise to power again. Once the people take over, all it will take is to step on the "bullies" at the first sign of a power grab.

a perfect peaceful utopian society is just not possible.

If we take out the word "perfect" (nothing is), it's not only possible, but absolutely necessary if we are to survive as a species. The next fifty years are going to be hell for all of us, even in a utopian society (people ARE going to starve by the millions in the next few years and wars over resources are almost inevitable - North America is going to be hit so hard it will feel like we've been run over by a freight train. Many of us and our children are going to die, some horribly, but that can't be avoided now). It is only through the determination in EACH ONE OF US and coordination of all our efforts that we will survive. I don't know about anyone else, but if extinction is to be our lot, I'm not going easily or quietly; for all the evil within us, there is simply too much good to allow mankind to self-destruct without the best fight we can put up. It will be one helluva fight, but I know we'll win if we can wake up and take the reigns(sic) of power.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 77
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History
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:50:10 AM
people do glomp on to leaders. any leader, it seems.
someone makes some leadership noise, and off we go and follow him.
most are mediocre.
you know the bad ones.
I think people don't think things through, and will follow the first thing that "moves"
to make a point, even the jews led by god, wanted an earthly leader.
we are very materialistic, we want to see everything, and will believe anything.
was it lincoln that said;
all get fooled sometime. [I'll emphasise this one]
some all the time
but never all, all the time.


so, all worldly systems haven't been tryed yet?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 78
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 12:53:47 PM

so, all worldly systems haven't been tryed yet?

No, they haven't. Man the herd animal has always been a follower. Thousands of years of our history shows us where he is led. This time man should be the leader, in charge of and responsible for himself and working in concert with his fellow man as heads of government, rather than as subjects of it. Flip the power pyramid upside down and you'll know what I mean. All power comes from us. I think it's time we learned to quit delegating it to servants who act like our masters!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 79
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/2/2009 6:00:44 PM

Those who are unwilling to put up a fight in the way of hard work will need to take a reality check though.

Why don't we start fighting and doing the hard work now? Why do we sit and watch as millions starve?

I'll admit that I made that post to shake people out of their complacency and stimulate some discussion. The near future doesn't have to be that way if we start preparing now, but how many of us are? How many of us are actively seeking a better solution to the hunger problem than letting the hungry die? I'll tell you, practically none. They are all thinking the government will figure something out. The only thing government seems to be able to do successfully is rob it's citizens and kill foreigners, so I can bet you that is their solution to world hunger. Let's not count on government to bail us out; the only thing they can bail out is those poor starving bankers. Good thing for them the people don't mind having their pockets picked clean to help keep the bankers out of the breadlines. It would sure be nice if government had half the compassion for people that it has for bankers!
 nevaagin
Joined: 4/8/2009
Msg: 80
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 3:16:22 AM
There will never be a utopia so long as individuality exists . we all seek that moment when everthing seems perfect and , since I'm not sure what 'self actualisation' means , i can't comment . We reach truth and happiness by an effort of will over sadness and death and alot of really shitty things .
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 81
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 3:22:11 AM

There will never be a utopia so long as individuality exists

What if individuality is just an illusion and it turns out that we are all just different manifestations of the same thing?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 82
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/5/2009 11:12:13 AM

we are different manifestations of the single form human.

What I originally meant was consideration that we are all part of the same consciousness, tied to an illusion of individuality and separateness. If the "individual" consciousness is the sum total of the individual "consciousnesses" of every functional neuron in the brain, we see that an individual is only an aggregate of many individuals, working together to function at a whole other level. That aggregate consciousness (a working human brain) creates a field, which can affect other fields close by. Is that so different from a neuron, which can only affect other nearby neurons?

Is it not reasonable to think that there is a possibility that the aggregate of the working brain fields might "connect" (influence) each other in such a way that a "meta-consciousness" could form? Does a neuron know it's part of a brain? Would we know whether or not we were part of a meta-consciousness?

In the same way that a neuron loses it's "individuality" to be a functional part of a greater whole, is it not possible that the same could be true of us?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 83
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 3:31:02 PM

If Obama says there must be change and people see his reasoning and the necessary change actually takes place, that's an indication to me that the system we have in place now is working in a way that ensures things get better sooner or later.

Well Obama said there were gonna be changes, but I notice he got busy and didn't make any. It doesn't much matter now, because he's gonna have to do as he's told by the Fed and the IMF, so the US is no longer a free country run by "the people"; not even officially; it is now just a bankrupt pawn in the hands of international bankers.


even when you change the method of being social won't fix the issue of opposing beliefs... like alcohol vs no alcohol in Utopia.

Where is there a problem with that? People who don't wanna drink don't have to and have no right to tell the ones that do wanna drink that they can't. So why can't the wets & drys live together harmoniously?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 84
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 5:58:08 PM

Remember the saying "With freedom comes responsibility"... That's EXACTLY what's going on...

Did the people really ask the government(s) to mismanage the economy for them? It strikes me that none of the elections ever did any good. All it meant was putting a new mismanager, who could blame the last guy while he tries his own hand at running the ship of state into the rocks.

Governments are far less responsible than the people who vote for them. Since elections don't work, maybe it's time for armed revolt?


How about you and I take a trip to Saudi Arabia and have a beer in public then

What has Saudi Arabia (or any other country or religion) got to do with Utopia? Obviously we can't have any "beliefs" dictating how others should behave. The ONLY "commandment" should be "do no harm", other than that, people should be able to do anything they damn well please!


That's not how things work.

Correction: That's not how things work HERE; it IS how they ought to work in a Utopia, otherwise it wouldn't be a Utopia.


And this is for a fairly simple issue too..

Simply resolved too. If an activity causes no harm, it can't be prohibited...period. NOBODY would have the right to tell others how thgey should live. ALL rights would be respected.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 85
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 2:56:18 PM

They ask for things to be mismanaged when they:
1. Insist on no tax increases even in the face of years of budget deficits and growing debt
2. Continue to opt for Interest-only loans

It strikes me that if people voted down the taxes, they would have expected cutbacks in services to keep the budget in line. Why wasn't the budget kept in line with what the people voted for?...Did they also vote to borrow money to keep the services going, or was that a fiscally irresponsible action of government (to garner votes?)

People ask for things to be mismanaged in an indirect fashion by routinely wanting to get something for nothing.

I'd say that people vote for the politicians who lie to them and "sell" them a bill of goods. Only later do they find the goods have been billed to the people (at an exhorbitant markup and after the crooked politicians take their cut of course)

Administration is a thankless job. I experienced it 1st hand on a small scale as being a condo director for several years.

You are right of course; you strike me as an honest man, so you would never make it in a profession run by crooks, like used car sales, law, or politics. Honest men make lousy crooks!

Yeah but we're talking about morphing the society we have HERE into Utopia.

When I have the time, I'll have to go back and re-read some of the more recent posts, but my recollection of the intention of this thread was to discuss the possibilities PRESUPPOSING the existence of a Utopian state.

Be that as it may, I think we could create a society of "Utopians" that could eventually grow to encompass the human race (or maybe not). A society is a group of people voluntarily working together for a common purpose. If part of that common purpose was to respect the rights of others, then anybody who would not, could not join that society. (Can't let anyone in the game if they don't promise to abide by the rules)

Such a society may grow, or it may get snuffed out by people who don't like it (like an existing government?), but in any event, the members of it wouldn't be stuffing their beliefs or rules down the throats of other members; if they did, they'd be kicked out of that society.
 CheezyChick
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 86
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 4:38:45 PM
I'm not sure what Utopia and taxes have any business being in the same sentence let alone thread...and have absolutely no business posting in a topic to which I have not a clue...but felt completely compelled to add that Utopia is a matter of mind, heart and soul...and has nothing to do with reality...unless you live in Disneyland with Mickey and Minnie Mouse...

ps...I only read the first and last post....so ...yeah...
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 87
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 9:36:59 PM
I was gonna start my own society, called "The Brotherhood of Man" based on what John Lennon "Imagine"d. The premise would be simple. Society members would place themselves under the jurisdiction of unwritten natural law (1 commandment: Do no harm) and hold ALL their rights, with the agreement that they would strive to protect and defend those same rights for everyone else (those are the duties that come with rights).

I may yet start that society, but I see a lot of potential in another one that is pretty much as I'd envisioned mine. It is still in the formation process and I'd like to help them build it, so I'm joining it.
http://worldfreemansociety.org

I really believe that this society, or one very much like it will soon replace the corporate de facto (illegitimate) government now running Canada. I picture people leaving corporate Canada in droves to join a freer, more just society, where all men & women are self-governing brothers & sisters, equal before the law, working together for the common purpose of making the land a land to be proud of.
 CheezyChick
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 88
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 9:40:48 PM
Wow...right on brother.....

Sounds perfectly.....Utopian.....I'd like an invite to the opening ceremonies....
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 89
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:57:57 AM
@ Muse
It wouldn't be much of a secret if I posted it here, now would it?

you grew up on one of those 60's commune farms

Nope! I could never picture life much more than a block or two from an all-nite Seven Eleven.

smoked a lot of pot

I pretty well quit by the time I was 16. (and I HATE that skunk smelling sh¡t they smoke today!)

had some trippy LSD visions

I lost two years of my life in near psychosis to that crap! (well, OK...it was probably an STP, DMT, LSD****ail mixed with other floor sweepings from the lab)

danced in a field of wild daisies every day at sunset

You left out drunk, naked and only in the warmer weather!

your real name is Rainbow Soleil Zappa

My favorite song when I was young was "Who Are the Brain Police?", but Captain Beefheart's "Trout Mask Replica" was my favorite album.

Actually, when I was young, I was kind of a fascist, politically speaking (sort of like a skinhead before there were skinheads) and I advocated nuclear war as a solution to the "useless eater problem". I used to tear down "Che" posters and pick fights with "commies"...I think I've mellowed over the years ...
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 90
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:08:27 AM

I don't remember most of the 80's.

I did the time warp thing and stayed in 1969. That was my Utopian age...It has to be; I don't remember a damn thing! I don't remember the 70's, 80's or 90's either, but that was only because they were boring & I didn't pay attention to them. Senility was setting in after about 2000, so I don't remember much before this morning....?...What were we talking about?
Ahh...To hell with it...I just hope I had enough presence of mind to stock the fridge with cold beer....I need my breakfast...
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 91
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 1:35:16 AM
Oh...with all of the good vibes going around, I thought it might be interesting to revive this thread...

Utopia...what would that look like?
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 92
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 2:58:26 AM

Utopia...what would that look like?


Like this maybe:

http://homepage.mac.com/ewald/.Pictures/moonrise1.jpg

That, and another view I'm particularly fond of.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 93
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 12:58:44 PM
@ea®ly
That's a gorgeous shot! It reminded me of the most beautiful, perfect and eternal moment of my life. I was camped at a place called Black Lake and was swallowed by the majesty of a similar view. At that moment I felt a sense of perfect, universal harmony and belonging that has been with me ever since. The memory of the beauty of that moment still fills me with awe.

@ mtn

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. It's one of my favorites.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 94
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 2:01:01 PM

That's a gorgeous shot! It reminded me of the most beautiful, perfect and eternal moment of my life.


It's my living room view of the full moon rising in early December.


I was camped at a place called Black Lake and was swallowed by the majesty of a similar view.


Yes, ...some things are indelibly imprinted on one's being, I remember Black Lake from my many summers as a child growing up in Manitoba,...we went camping every summer, mostly in that part of Manitoba.


At that moment I felt a sense of perfect, universal harmony and belonging that has been with me ever since.


I moved to this lake last June, ...this move alone, has changed my life for the better. I was alive only in that I had a pulse, I had stopped caring. Now, I'm reminded every time I look out a window how beautiful, peaceful and perfect this world can be. It is a kind of balance, ...I go out of my way not to disturb it via frugality and cognisance of keeping as small as possible an ecological footprint.


The memory of the beauty of that moment still fills me with awe.


I'm privileged and very fortunate to experience this every day, every hour, every minute that I'm here.

It is my "happy place".

....my Utopia.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 95
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 2:35:26 PM
@ ea®ly

It is my "happy place".
....my Utopia.

Only someone with such a sense of appreciation as you yourself possess could appreciate the envy I feel!
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 96
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 3:18:30 PM

Only someone with such a sense of appreciation as you yourself possess could appreciate the envy I feel!


I know a few people interested in establishing planned sustainable communities, this is kinda' the start of one here, where I am. Small "c" communism, ...ta da! There are more of us every day. I'm kinda' part of two of them in this area, there is a music label/studio two lakes over on Lac MacGregor, "Renegade Music", ..I've been coming up there since '03. When I got the offer to move up here at the recording engineer's place on Lac Dam, it took less than a second for me to say, "sounds good".

My engineer friend is always recruiting people, smart kid, he inherited some money at 25 and bought this place 3 years ago for under $275K, about 2 acres ...it's worth twice that now, ...so he's swinging the equity into more places like this. If I ever buy again, it will be rural high elevation waterfront.

The key is to get out of the city, it's not as hard to do as some may think, ...living frugally does not mean being "poor", ...in some ways it can result in feeling "rich" in ways that money can't buy.

Being in the woods also doesn't mean complete isolation anymore either, ...thanks to technology, like the 3G cell network I'm accessing this site with... Now if we can just get that fiber-optic line in here...

Small footprint, self sufficiency (one thing at a time), and sustainability and "beauty".

To me, any and all sacrifice and effort on my part is worth it for just the view alone.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 97
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 3:42:44 PM
It would seem Utopia is already realized for a few of us. All that really remains is to let government know it has no authority over us and we're all living the dream.


I got beer money

You're in!
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 98
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 6:24:03 PM
Thanks for resurrecting this thread. It's one of my favorites.


Mine, too...there is some good stuff in here!


I know a few people interested in establishing planned sustainable communities, this is kinda' the start of one here, where I am.


I am sorry...but is that the lovely sound of an invitation, I hear?


The key is to get out of the city, it's not as hard to do as some may think, ...living frugally does not mean being "poor", ...in some ways it can result in feeling "rich" in ways that money can't buy.


I always knew you were a rich, and humble man...


I got beer money


You don't need beer money...we have Dukky's social credit system. You are good!

And Margo, we all need a bit of nekkidness, from time to time....
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 99
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/10/2010 6:45:47 PM

I am sorry...but is that the lovely sound of an invitation, I hear?


Absolutely.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 100
view profile
History
Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 1/11/2010 4:11:54 PM
now, what are we going to do with the crooks and lazies that a society like that will attract like flies to, you know what?

utopia was never supposed to be indicative of a realistic expectation of our state.
I believe the word was created to describe fantasy way of life.

by the way, I agree that present systems suck.

a couple, who have the minimum of rules, can't even get along, hows a community going to manage?
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