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 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 36
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?Page 2 of 28    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28)
Don't you guys have to wait months to see your doctors? In our country, even booked doctors can see us within a month usually. I don't think it's socialism we're afraid of. It's waiting six months to see a specialist, that scares us. Oh, and our elderly do have some sort of healthcare here. Medicaid has its problems, but its better then nothing.


Um no. Here is a typical example of our system. On June 26th my husband went to a clinic complaining of chest pains. He was having a heart attack, he was sent to a regional hospital where he recieed an EKG and an ultrasound on his heart, he needed a quadruple bypass! Within 4 hours he was on the operating table getting his surgery done, he was in intensive care for 2 weeks and on a ward for another 3 days and them sent home for follow up care. This has cost us nothing, when my daughter was born she had a heart condition and was in the special care nursery for the first three weeks of her life. She was seen by more paediatric specialist than I knew existed. Her condition was diagnosed (pulmonary valve was scarred 72% percent closed) she was monitored by a cardiac specialist until she was 15 months old then the decision was mafe to give her angioplasty, she was one of the first babies to have this procedure done, this was back in the 80's. She has since had it done again at 15 years old. She has seen a cardiologist every year for EKG's, ultrasounds and stress tests and will for the rest of her life. Again all of this and we have never seen a bill.

Now both my daughter and husband would most likely never get coverage from a private insurer due to "pre-existing" conditions.

Is our system perfect? No. Do people have to wait for treatment sometimes, yes, usually because it isnt life threatening and our system is geared towards those that need it the worst are seen first. Is that perfect? No, but it is nice to know that generally if you need critical treatment or surgeries you will get it when you need it.

Sorry a bit off topic but this is the type of service you get in a "socialist" country with a universal medical plan.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 37
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 1:40:50 PM
Neatly avoided answering the questions, didn't you.

No, the public education system is not 'failing'.
We have construction on I-5 happening right now--my tax dollars at work.
You might find that the Federal Government is still involved in your volunteer F.D.
Regardless of the shape its in, Medicaid is socialized.

People need to stop being afraid of words like 'socialism' and deal with the reality of it.
Next time you have to call the police for something, remind yourself that THAT is 'socialism'.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 38
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 1:57:10 PM

so its not failing? i swear i heard obama say that on the campagin trail, weird
regardless of the shape its in? whos avoiding the facts now, its broke!! so if its broke maybe one could think it doesnt work? again this is not a party thing for me, i hope obama does well, i really mean that, i know its hard for some to think that since i dis agree with the man on somethings, but i do hope he does well. i just look at the goveremnt and dont have much faith, maybe iam wrong, i hope that i am, but i look at cali and mass ( states that try to run healthcare) and i see how bad as in broke they are and worry for the rest of the country, again i hope iam wrong , its just a concern i have, juat my opinion


The point of your diatribe was the 'socialism' was bad--right?

I pointed out that we do, in fact, have socialized police forces, Medicaid, fire departments, infrastructure, and public education, to name a few entities.
My ultimate point is this: Stop being afraid of the word 'socialism'. Stop letting your fear get in the way of the truth.
 winteragain
Joined: 3/26/2009
Msg: 39
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 2:29:35 PM
Capitalism strengthens some areas and weakens other areas, that's just the way it is. Socialism does the exact same thing. You can't have a little of this and a little of that in the same economic system. Socialism for health care, economy, and capitalism for everything else? Lets be real. People are without health care because they can't pay what the owner of the hospital is asking for. Yes people have a right to be healthy, they also have a right to not starve to death but you can't stroll into a supermaket and take 1 grape without having to pay for it. Is it wrong for an entire nation to be built on making money and being extremely wealthy at the cost of dying citizens that can't afford health care? Nope! But U.S. still helps the economically challenged individual with cool stuff like wellfare thanks to everybody paying out of our pockets to help the lesser citizens. America DOES care about all its citizens through and through. Is there any wonder that the U.S. is THE BEST place to be if you're sick or have no money? If you're going to be ill and homeless, would you rather be in America or Africa or even Asia?! We got dumpsters filled with food outside of restaurants, wellfare checks right in the mail, jail cells that actually give you some decent health care and ok food and you don't pay a cent for room or board, you just pay the price of incarceration and butt love from other men
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 40
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 4:16:53 PM

From what I understand, Canada's difficulty in expedient care doesn't stim from a lack of funding, but from a serious shortage of medical practitioners. This could be a problem under any system.

Yep, we got a lot of their Dr's when they went to that healthcare system. Just like a lot of OUR Dr's will leave if we do the same.
 insert user name
Joined: 5/4/2006
Msg: 41
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 8:43:48 PM

Yep, we got a lot of their Dr's when they went to that healthcare system. Just like a lot of OUR Dr's will leave if we do the same.{/quote]

The US is still far below the OECD optimal standard in both doctors per patient and beds per patient. Doctors immigrate constantly for numerous reasons, this isn't something universal to a single healthcare system. Canadian Physician migration to the US doesn't account for even half of their immigration trend.

You have to consider that doctors travel to nations for education, training, fellowship periods, and other medical practice experiences. "Its all about the money" doesn't account for many of the migrations, the same thing plagues US healthcare despite it being private insure, for profit.

Despite having double the annual per capita cost, we can only boast a .3 advantage of physicians per 1000 people. The level of physicians operating in the US has been in decline ever since '00.
 steveemac
Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 42
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 10:55:44 PM

Keep up the good work on criticizing Americans' intelligence
You mean, like, yours?


a Opposition.
Pass fifth grade grammar much?


"Due Diligence"?
You know, the concept that people would bother to get enough facts to form an intelligent opinion, rather than just having whatever hysterical, knee-jerk reaction they're encouraged to have, by whichever pundit is making the loudest and scariest noises?


People have read the Healthcare Bill
What does the Healthcare Bill have to do with the subject of this thread? It's about why Americans perceive "Socialism" to automatically be bad, and my comment is in response to that; my reference to "death panels" is to provide an example.


Scare mongers?: who's using Global Warming tactics thus we need to be "green" or we're doomed?
And if anyone accepts this -or the opposite position, as well- without first looking up the facts, they'll get my criticism -for whatever that's worth.
 insert user name
Joined: 5/4/2006
Msg: 43
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 10:41:02 AM

First of all, the idea of socializm is against the US constitution. Everything that has been socialized in the US is unconstitutional and a theft of our liberties. Socialism is an ant-american philosophy.
Second there are many socialized nations in the world.
third no one is being held in America against thier will. If the grass is greener in a socialist state, knock your self out and move there.

Our founders gifted us with a free nation. we need to keep it free. We need to undo the amounts of socialism that has already been afflicted on the populace.


People throw the word "unconstitutional" around a lot, most often when their claim has no constitutional bearing. If you are going to make an assertion that socialized programs are unconstitutional, please provide your evidence.

Second, are you claiming that you will give up law enforcement, medical programs for the elderly, retirement and disabled assistance, refuse and sewage services, transit maintanence and road repair, and educational programs because they are socialist?
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 44
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 1:26:13 PM
Cuba, North Korea, and one or 2 ex Soviet Republics, aren't actually socialist at all IMO. Or they're socialist 'in name only'. They just claim it, that's all. They're actually totalitarian police states in varying degrees (with North Korea coming in at about first place out of all of them easily, as far as oppression and all-around weirdness). North Korea's a dynastic succession, something which was never part of true Marxist socialism. They operate under something called "juche". It's the North Korean version of Stalinist 'communism', basically; it indicates autarky and nationalism (non-Marxist notions), combined with the oppressive centralized one-party (well there are 2 but one's a fake) system where the ruling leader is looked upon as something halfway between a mortal and a living god who is divinely ordained to rule the country (also not a very Marxist socialist concept). 'Songun' indicates militarism, the power of the military, and constant (evidently paranoid) preparation for war.

China and Vietnam are communist in name only by now also, really, using something more like a mixed-market type system with certain privatized sectors , etc. They only retain certain aspects of their communism. Privatization and mixed-market simply works better, it's been proven time and again. The 'ideal' (IMO) may be something like what they have in Scandinavia; social-democracy basically....slightly to the left of where most of today's mainstream American Democrats are at.

But what ended up passing as communism (I say passing as because true communism / true socialism has never existed) always ended up with the police state and dictatorial control by either one man or one small group of elites....just like 'Animal Farm',, or '1984'...

http://www.songunpoliticsstudygroup.org/ <---------John Paul Cupp....leader of the pro-North Korean 'American Songun' group....
 insert user name
Joined: 5/4/2006
Msg: 46
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:11:28 PM

If you would actually read the Constitution you would find that the central government was given limited powers. manufactering social programs (no matter how well intentioned) is beyond the scope of the powers given to the central government. The Constitution outlines a union of soverign states that are equal with the central government. Only certain powers were delegated to the central government, all other powers were kept with the states. This was to keep a central government from becoming overbearing.

Although Lincoln's illegal war expanded the federal governments powers, it was done by violating the Constitution. The new deal and the great society also unconstitutionally expanded the federal government, interfering with our liberties and ability to progress ever since.


Oh lordy...rebel pride. If you cracked open a history book you would realize that "illegal war" was spurred on after it was determined that states did not have the right to secede, and that the southern states were therefore in a state of rebellion. It is only natural for a government to put down a rebellion. Further more the Federal government was well within their power to raise an army under those terms as said power is granted via the Insurrection Act of 1807.

As for "limited central powers", if you studied constitutional history, or actually read the constitution, you would understand that a socialist program such as Healthcare is well within the enumerated powers granted to the Federal government laid out in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution; the Taxing and Spending Clause.

Its precise text reads as follows, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"
 wildtame
Joined: 7/31/2009
Msg: 47
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 9:25:41 PM
I'm with you peacethx from canada. i think the americans are just greedy and greed works for them.
sorry guys, its just that ...well ...as a culture you sure seem that way. I must confess as individuals you guys seem decent.
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 48
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 11:34:57 PM
Social Security was a great idea when first adopted and instituted. The Social Security fund grew nice and fat because everyone was paying into it.
It wasn't until later, greedy government used the Social Security Fund to finance other social "welfare" programs and general funds, that it began to go downhill.

Governments misuse of government "social" programs is what causes our distrust.

Sure, plenty of people don't know what "socialism" is really. And most people are basically sheep, following what appears to be a good shepherd.

I think that some equate socialism as something similar to communism. And we don't want to be like Russia, Cuba, or China.
Some may equate socialism as something similar to the French model. But the French are the first to get overrun by tyrants in times of war. And I think we may view them as whiny, snivelling pansies that give in too easily.



Personally, I'm torn. I want to maximize the fruits of my labor and don't relish "giving it away" for taxes or what have you. But I also recognize the need for healthcare within my family. And at the current state, healthcare is just too exorbitantly and unrealistically expensive.

I'm self-employed and I was under the illusion that THAT was the American Dream.

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that a company pawn or corporate sheep are more "deserving" of healthcare or healthcare discounts than I am. Yet they seem to get treated that way because they belong to a "pool" of fish.
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 49
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 9:10:44 AM

we need big business and big business needs us.

There are billions of "us" and we are disposable.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 50
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:31:52 PM
Okay, I have a solution. All of you under-achievers and people who are un-able to live without government help, move to Canada. People who can make it on their own or with the support of their familes will stay in the US.

Problem solved. No need for anyone to change their policy.

The truth is this. I did not go to school for half a decade to pay for someone else to sit on their ass.

Tax is necessary for common things like roadways, government pay-roll, etc. However, being taxed to pay for some border-hopping illegal to get medical care is not something I am in favor of. That kind of tax is the kind of tax that sent Rome into the rubble of history.
 insert user name
Joined: 5/4/2006
Msg: 51
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 2:20:21 PM

General welfare did not mean social programs. General welfare deals with laws deemed to the protection of citezens. After a fighting a war that dealt with oppressive taxation. You want us to believe the our founders would ok the oppressive taxation of the modern day? Yes, the government has the power to tax. It was never given the power to punish the successful and redistribute the the wealth in the way the statist mindset would lead you to believe. See our founders also gave us the Federalist papers and other documents that work as a commentary on the Constitution.


Not according to Alexander Hamilton, who held that this power allows the Federal Government to spend money for the benefit of the general welfare of the nation, examples such as agriculture and education, provided that they are uniform throughout the nation.


your reading of the Constitution is a nice distortion of the original intent. Much the way Lincoln's was.


Are you implying that the government has exceeded its position of power in establishment of programs like Medicare, OSHA, and Family Medical Leave? Further more there is no "distortion" of the constitution in the powers vested to establish programs such programs. Even if you could form a coherent and viable argument (which you have not), the Federal Government is still empowered to provide for the General Welfare of the nation, and can still assert the power to do so under the Necessary and Proper Clause.


Even Thomas Jefferson believed we should have a revolution about every twenty years. The Constitution also gives us the right to over throw a despotic Central government. Obama is bringing us closer to that everyday.
Long live the Reagan revolution!!!


Who is distorting history again? It looks like you. Thomas Jeffersons twenty year "revolution" is spin doctoring on his original words that stated laws and constitutions only have a shelf life of nineteen years, he never set any time frame for revolutions to take place. So by your logic the constitution you herald as your protector isn't even a legitimate document anyways. Additionally, Jefferson stated in a letter to George Logan that Corporations are an aristocracy and should be crushed in their infancy to protect the nation. It doesn't sound like he was in favor of the privatized insurers you want to defend.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 52
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 5:05:46 AM
Actually, we are a very socialistic country, we just don't like thinking about it that way.

There are the obvious services provided by government such as police, fire departments and public works like roads and bridges.
Medicare and medicaid are obviously socialist programs. How many good Republican seniors would like to get rid of Medicare ?

Any one working for a defence contractor like Boeing or Lockheed is in effect getting paid through government taxpayer dollars. Do they consider themselves socialists ? Would anyone suggest making our national defense completely privately funded to avoid socialism ?

How many millionaires and even billionaires, like Ross Perot have made their fortunes from government contracts ? You don't hear them calling themselves socialist.

The Cash for Clunkers program is obviously socialist. The government is subsidizing people buying cars.
It has been a great success and has been a much needed boost to the automobile industry and it's workers. How many red-blooded Republican US auto workers have had their jobs saved by this program ? Do they think they would be better off without it ?

There is socialism all around us. We are one of the most socialist countries in the world but we just don't want to talk about it that way.
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 53
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 11:22:45 AM
Socialist Capitalism? In an, almost, Free market society?

Interesting!
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 54
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 11:50:41 AM
It seems to me that the more a country takes from the rich to give to the poor, the less interest there is in success. Maybe that is why big, evil, capitalist America was the first on the moon, the first with nuclear power, the first to perform many a medical proceedure, and the first in a lot of other things. We reward success. We allow a person to go as far as they want/can without impeding them. When we penalize success too much, why bother with it?

I hate socialism, I strongly dislike most government hand-out programs in place, and I am not suprised that people will disagree with me. The "watering down" of our country has been going on for quite some time. Many times I wish I had been born a lot earlier before all of these socialist ideas that we are now embracing became so popular. They disgust me. They disgust me because I am successful. Because I work for it. Because I hate sloth, lazyness, and ineptitude, and because I refuse to reward those who embrace those things with my paycheck.

Just the other day I payed $100 for 10 pills (Tamiflu). Did I complain? No. Did I whine because I cannot afford insurance right now being a student? No. Because in another 8 months, I WILL be able to. Why? Because I worked for it and will graduate with a meaningful degree. If you can't have something, don't whine to the government, get off your ass and go get it. Not smart enough to be a lawyer or Dr? Don't have a degree? Then work. My grandpa had not made less than 100K in a year for a LONG time up until he retired a few years ago. His 6th grade education didn't seem to hold him back any. One way or another--Work. Stop whining for free stuff and try it.
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 55
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 12:22:32 PM
You get further faster if you work SMART as opposed to working HARD!

My first year as a trucker, I made 3 times what I made my first year as a mechanic.

I didn't work any harder. I worked smarter.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 56
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 12:43:45 PM
By the same token, those developed nations who chose a balanced approach to socially responsible governance are the highest rated for things like literacy, life expectancy, quality of life, quality/cost of health care, % of population imprisoned. This is quite verifiable. Whereas the idea that making a society successful by ignoring the concept of social responsibility in economic models is best is verifiable ....where?


Correct, they reward their degenerates with free stuff which ups their averages over-all. Not impressed.

I did not say to ignore social responsibility as I am a huge fan of the Salvation Army, half-way houses, and other things. I love chairty, when it is given (not taken). What I am NOT a fan of is increasing taxes to give away what we working people have been paying for ourselves all along. Public education is good (don't take that wrong, I mean the concept of it, not the quality),as are other things. Hence I said I hate MOST socialist programs, not all. There has to be a happy medium, and I feel that the happy medium does not penalize success. Socialism does and thus is not a happy medium. Government taxation to support the country (within reason. You kno-- public utility, parks, roads, etc.) I fully support and gladly pay without complaint. Government taxation to re-distribute wealth to those who don't have it, I do not support.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 57
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 12:59:50 PM
Can you provide a cite with any proof that NGO's can successfully replace socially responsible governance?

And since you still haven't answered, I'll reiterate: "...Whereas the idea that making a society successful by ignoring the concept of social responsibility in economic models is best is verifiable ....where?"

We all understand what it is you endorse and why, all I'm asking for is evidence that it works on a scale of national governance.


I don't think you understand my line.

I do not support withdrawing ALL forms of government assistance. My MAIN complaint is the Health Care "reform", the bail-out program currently going on (first houses, now GM, Banks, and whatnot) and things like this. I am not a fan of removing all government assistance, that would be just as absurd as what is going on now. Moderation is the key to most things I find.

I would like to point to America back before all of this "social reform". I think it worked pretty well according to the history books I read and based on what the older generation has to say about it.

I guess you can sum my attitude up like this: I made smart choices. I won't pay for your stupid choices.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 58
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 1:05:57 PM
I hate socialism because I do not subscribe to the theory that lazy asses should get any more than they deserve, which is nothing. As a business owner who works hard and actually makes less than the people whom I employ, I don't expect anyone to hand me money that I don't work for, and I resent my money going to people - the government and individuals - who think they ought to take it from me just because they feel entitled to do so.

I support social programs that help people to become self-sustaining - although I would rather have this covered by the private sector, not the state or Federal government, which are far too bloated for anyone's good. I support social programs that assist the people who CANNOT work (such as the disabled) or provide a helping hand to people who are trying to lift themselves up out of a hole, especially if it is not of their own making. I support Social Security and Medicare as a means of helping to return some monies to those folks who paid into the system all their lives (and the spouses who assisted them). But the massive government feeding trough that is being created right now is far, far beyond what I desire as a capitalist citizen of the US of A.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 59
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 3:19:54 PM
This thread makes me sick. It really does. A whole bunch of free-loaders wanting something for nothing and citing "what-if's" to justify it.

What if
What if
What if

What if I am a successful person and don't request a hand-out and in the same turn don't like my money being stolen from me to pay for YOU? WHAT IF?

The only difference between you breaking into my appartment like some degernerate and stealing my wallet and what you are supporting is the entity committing the theft and the removal of risk of you getting killed for said theft by entering my appartment.

I am not some radical anti-government anti-tax person, however, I am anti-freeloader taking what I worked for to pay for their problems.

Why don't you all take a step back and see what happened last time the most powerful nation on earth acted upon the stupidity being discussed here? That would be Rome.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 60
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 4:25:13 PM
You really need to help me out with the relationship of the fall of Rome to social programs in the United States of America. You are a 23 year old student, I don't think that anyone has stolen any of your hard earned money from you. I truly don't think it is time to start calling anyone on this thread a freeloader. I can assure you that I have paid more taxes to date than you can imagine and over 30 years of contributing and paying taxes, I have collected all of 3 months of unemployment. I made too much money to even qualify for the tax rebate last year. Still not complaining, and still willing to pay more for healthcare for all americans. I am very aware that there but for the grace of god ,go I. I have been very fortunate in my life, good parents, good education and the ability to have a very successful career. I have been blessed, not everyone has had my advantages. Do I want to pay for those that have no ambition, no work ethic at all? No, not at all, but I don't think this is the norm. I feel sorry for your patients, you seem to hold the working class in such contempt.


First of all, your statement that I am 23 means nothing to me. I am 23 and want my country to still be my home when I am 25. I will move if I am relegated to making what I made working at a resturant with no education, after spending half a decade getting one due to some whacky healthcare bill. My age does not prevent me from caring, or having an opinion, or admitting that I DON'T know nearly as much as you about paying taxes except that the ones I pay don't bother me so much and I feel that they, for the most part, are necessary.

Second, The working class is where I come from and where I am going. Where do you get the idea that I hold them in contempt or am not one of them? You must not be familiar with the job of a nurse. It is DEFINITELY working-class. My whole family is working class and the only government hand-out we ever had that I am aware of was wel-fare after my mother made a poor choice. However, we quickly elevated above that and moved on. As stated, I am not against ALL government hand-outs, just the ones that tend to get abused such as the housing bail-out, etc. where people were buying things they knew they could not afford and doing stupid things to get them and then the government fixed it for them, or plans target certain members of society such as the health-care bill.

I understand that public schools foster the "Everyone is a winner" mentality, but I am sorry to say, everyone is not a winner. I am not going to give my car to someone down the street because they have not. I am not going to pay for someone's lunch because they can afford not. I am not going to do these things ruitinely, although I have in the past because I believe in charity, because I am not going to live in poverty for others. That simply is not my "thing". Mother Theresa liked it and more power to her.

Okay, allow me to assist you in making the leap between the citizens of Rome begging for circuses and bread and America today, short story:

Rome was once a republic, which became a democracy as people in power began appointing friends and others to power to suite personal agendas. They began tipping the scales of power away from the people and toward the government. The people aided in this because they began asking for the government to provide them food and entertainment at no cost, so the government taxed them. To do this, they had to have MORE power to take money from the rich to provide for the poor. The rich soon left, or were taxed out of business. As government in Rome grew more top-heavy, it turned into an Oligarchy, and the rest is history. It went down-hill and collapsed in a poor state of internal affairs.


Classic example of system justification theory.

If this is what you believe, then you're self-entitled. Most young fiscal Conservatives are. Either they have an inflated self-ego, and think they worked so much harder than they did, or they're just bitter because of admittedly unfair shit done to them. So instead of embracing a philosophy where both they and the disadvantaged would have equal access to health-care and tuition for the same amount they're both paying now, they just want to take it away from the disadvantaged for spite. That's all it really comes down to. "YOU can't have it, since I can't," or, "My life was shitty, and I had to crawl on my belly through a trench of broken-glass; so should you!" Philosophies like this are why this country is such a shithole; it's why we're giving billions in bailouts to the super-rich, and the corporations that unscrupulously made them that way.

"One day, I'm going to be on top! Then I'll make everyone pay, and they'll see how great I am!" Sorry, but chances are you'll never make it; and instead of blaming the people at the top who make billions off of your hardwork, you'll blame the disadvantaged again.

Good luck with that.


Sounds like someone is bitter. I am not entitled, and I have no axe to grind against those who are, I think they have their money because SOMEONE played their cards right, got lucky, whatever. More power to them and I don't have anything against it. I find it annoying that some people do. Heck, I roll around in a car with no A/C in 100* weather and you know what? I don't have any bitterness or envy or anything towards someone who has the money to fix their stuff like that when it breaks. When I have the money, I will fix MY stuff. They can worry about THEIR stuff. Mind yours, I will mind mine. Or would you like me to set up a fund for "Fix my A/C so I don't stroke out in traffic one day" or something and all the POF'ers in favor of helping others can mail me $5? Would you go for that? I sure wouldn't if I were you.

I have no need to "make someone pay" and I didn't "crawl through broken glass" or other nonsense to get where I am. I come from a middle/lower class family that was frugal and helped give me support and taught me good work ethics at an early age.

If you have a problem with me wanting to keep the money that I make rather than throwing it to the poor, I'm sorry. No, you cannot have my pie. If you want a pie, go buy a pie. That is my attitude. Not some rediculous sense of making you suffer or whatnot. Where do you get off on that stuff? I want to be left alone to live my dream and not have 2.5% here and 1.0% there and 3% here and so on whittled off of it to support programs I don't agree with that also compromise my ability to earn money while ruining the quality of my profession.

I am all in favor of being taxed for public education and scholarship grants and whatnot. They reward dedication and help build society. I am NOT in favor of income limiting, and paying for free healthcare for illegals, and selective taxes and whatnot. Like I said, everything in moderation.

If that bothers you or you find it selfish, too bad?
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 61
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Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 11:07:47 PM

I would like you to cite a source that shows all of this data for the ratings was compiled without the use of any government census or media information.

Your posing a question that is next to impossible to answer. Deliberately, I suspect.
Here are some interesting findings and conclusions...
integral-review.org/.../Hoare,%20Toxic%20Effect%20on%20Children,%20Vol.%204%20No.%202.pdf
(If that doesn't work, Google "The Toxic Effect on Children of a Degraded U.S. Society, Family ...")

http://www.ssrc.org/publications/view/564FA755-2B4A-DE11-AFAC-001CC477EC70/
An introduction to...
http://measureofamerica.org/
http://www.ssrc.org/programs/american-human-development-project/
Take the quiz!
http://www.ssrc.org/ahdr-quiz/
I got 4 of 10 correct. The answers are surprising! How did you do?(question open to all)

??? A society can't exist without individuals. Individuals are what define a society.

You missed the singular point. An individual.

An individual can exist without a society, it's just more difficult.

No man is an island.
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