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 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 62
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?Page 3 of 28    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28)
Almost all Americans are proud of the fact that this country was the 1st. to send a man to the moon. We like the idea that American ideals, ingenuity, and courage triumphed over the Russians and the American flag now stands on the lunar surface, planted there by American astronauts.

Did Free Market Capitalism do it ?
No, Capitalism and the Free Market everybody talks about, had little to do with it.
Did investment bankers and businessmen put their money together and fund the Apollo program ?
No.
The government did it with taxpayers money. The space program is a government program.
Hundreds of businesses made money from it through government contracts.
Thousands of people got good paying jobs and supported their families from working for those businesses. And, it was all Socialism.
But, we don't want to think about it that way.
We don't want to think that all those people got a government hand out, do we ?

American capitalism didn't beat Russian communism to the moon.
It was good ol'American socialism that beat Soviet socialism.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 63
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 12:37:28 PM
The Health care system in Canada is not paid for by our taxes....this is what you got to understand...its paid for by the Lottery Corporations...the Casinos and of course the lotteries....the only thing I see wrong with the US system are the Insurance companies that do not live up to there "OBLIGATIONS" after you paid your premiums. The other thing that tends to bother me is the price of the bloody doctor...there not Gods...there no different than a mechanic..you get a good one..your ok...you get a bad one...you die. Thats a fact....just check out how many accidental deaths in Hospitals not only in the US but Canada and world wide...they make lots of mistakes. All the time...there not Gods.

Even in the US you have socialistic programs...you need them...its for all the people who are getting screwed by big business interest..its seems you like to subsidize the Oil companies, the farmers, industry and so on...bark at Canada for doing the same...but lean on the Idea that we are Socalistic...not true...Canadians are Conservatives...bottomline...we so bloody conservative that our idiot leaders (I am sure most Americans agree with that statement about there own leaders) seem to be somewhat concerned about getting Re-Elected...so they kiss up once in a while...politically US and Canada are at different ends where it comes to politicians...in Canada we do not wave flags...we hold these chumps on contempt...as soon as they are elected...in the States its quite different...you place more hope on the elected fools...and they all are on both sides of the border...they have there secret agendas and don't kid yourself about that.

As far as a republic and democracy is concerned they are two different events...a republic is where people are self governing as was the case in the US before the dirty thirties and the SSN is concerned same in Canada but a democracy is where people either in a republic or Federation or Commonwealth attempt to create a governing body which is a democracy...even in Communism its a form of democracy...extremely limited to state control...while in the free system...unlimited by state control...thats why the Good Ole USA landed on the moon first...it was more of a priority.

As far as Universal health care is concerned...I feel its vitale to the health of the nations people...first of all get rid of Monsanto and the bovine growth harmone...kills the cattle and poisions the milk...that makes people sick. Fact...Europe and Canada banded it because of the problems...corporate interest seems to control your political thinking...by the way Monsanto calls a Cow...a MILK PRODUCTION UNIT...so that makes you MILK PRODUCTION UNIT CONSUMMER...lol...oh yes...something we should be all concerned with GMO foods...ever consider that the reason we have super bugs like TB now a days is because of the GMO foods which have been altered and create blockers in the genes to resist viruses in VEGATABLES AND LIVESTOCK...those blockers are now in your blood. What are they doing there. I think Universal health care should be aimed at proper food and proper agriculture also...we care more about what goes in the gas tank than in your mouth. I think this problem with health care is just to big for most of us to really understand...for me it should not be just about paying the doctor...it should also be about proper nutrition and preventative medicine....I read that some researchers felt that Vitamins are toxic...you cannot live without vitamins and minerals and your food supply is lacking in both because of hybrid seeds and GMO plus processing of the food....process sugar is a chemical and poison not a food...fact....raise the taxes on sugar and let it pay for the health care...after all most of the people who are really cronic tend to eat a lot of sugar...like Diabetis.

I think that if we expand the idea of proper health care into proper maintenance of your body thru education...and not pharmacudical education that the doctores get...but proper preventative care...most illnesses are caused by lack of proper nutrition...

Eg: Vitamin D has been proven in test after test to reduce Cancer...especially in Breast Cancer and Prostrate Cancers...lung cancers and other types of cancers....vitamin D is created by the Sun...but we are using more and more sun blockers to protect us from the sun because it creates Cancer...doesn't that sound like an Oxymoron to you. Whats the truth on that...even the doctors say that we should be using sun screen....where did they get there information...they don't do the research, the pharmacudical companies do and they control the Media with advertizing. Like I said...Health care is bigger than just going to the hospital.

Heres a few Links if you like to check out what I said. If your interested, this is the type of Health care we all should be looking at.

http://www.oiloforegano.com/StudyonOreganoOil.html
Oil of Rosemary
http://www.oreganocures.com/articles61.html

Some testimonials of people using Oil of Oregano
http://www.wildoiloforegano.com/index.php?page=testimonials

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D

The exact long-term safe dose of vitamin D is not known. In 1997 the U.S. Dietary Reference Intake Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) of vitamin D for children and adults was set at 50 micrograms/day (2,000 IU), but this is viewed as outdated and overly restrictive. A 2007 risk assessment suggested that 250 micrograms/day (10,000 IU) in healthy adults should be adopted as the tolerable upper limit.[38] In adults, sustained intake of 2500 micrograms/day (100,000 IU) can produce toxicity within a few months.[2]

http://www.cancer.ca/canada-wide/prevention/use%20sunsense/vitamin%20d.aspx?sc_lang=en
http://www.vitamindsociety.org/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article672998.ece

Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PYsXQ16Ztg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsbCP42BDtw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foc9gil8OLM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhV-2IhsQns&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7lGBT3oMiw&feature=related

Vitamin D is the most important supplement you can get....it kills cancer that with Oil of Oregano and Vitamin C...Vitamin B 17 is also a cancer killer...niacin....


http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/398.html
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/69.html
 Hawaiianluau
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 64
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 1:53:22 PM
Nothing wrong with socialist countries.
Those who love socialism soooo much should simply explore their favorite one and move there.
What's so difficult about that ?
I've always lived at the center of the universe and what it is to me.
If you want socialism then go.
I mean what are your alternatives ?
Oh yea I almost forgot.
You want to fuk up my country.


 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 65
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 2:18:34 PM
Hawaiianluau..the whole world is capitalism...all of it...always has been. No one is going to fuk your country up more than those that live in that country...as all countries seem to have. You have priority of fuking your country up..no one else is going to do it for you. Don't worry about it, your country is going to be hear long after your gone. Then someone new will fuk it up. Thats the way its always been.
 packleader
Joined: 8/18/2006
Msg: 67
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 2:52:58 PM
"From my lofty moral perch in Canada, ahem...we are looking at your battle to provide free health care in the states with some shock and amazement. "
Ok.........lets go with your statement that ObamaCare will be free..........How do you calculate free...?.....My interpretation of free is that I dont pay a dime for something and I also mean no tax.........Is that the way it works in Canada....? All Canadian citizens get free health care without any tax to support the system...right...?

Please enlighten me............
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 68
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 3:03:01 PM
^No, I did some research on it, the avg. income for a Nurse in Canada was within a few hundred $$ of an American nurse, hours worked per week were within 2-3 IIRC.
Take-home pay in canada was $1,000 less per pay-period analyzed though (Forgot if it was month or 2-week, but I think it was month. Either way, it was 1/3 less than in America). Where do YOU think it went? (taxes?)

There Is No Free Lunch.


<div class='quote'>The Health care system in Canada is not paid for by our taxes....this is what you got to understand...its paid for by the Lottery Corporations...the Casinos and of course the lotteries....the only thing I see wrong with the US system are the Insurance companies that do not live up to there "OBLIGATIONS" after you paid your premiums. The other thing that tends to bother me is the price of the bloody doctor...there not Gods...there no different than a mechanic..you get a good one..your ok...you get a bad one...you die.

ummmm...no. I don't know what your mechanic payed to get ASE cert. or ASE master cert. as it were, but he makes around 60-75K a year if he is good and has a good job and I promise is certification wasn't terribly expensive in relation to that income. A doctor payed between half a million, and a million for that degree, and he makes the proportionate difference in pay. Yes, he is a mechanic, and he is compensated accordingly. You don't go through the hell of med-school to make the same thing as a guy swinging wrenches on a honda. You mess up that honda and chances are (unless you epically fail dealing with brakes or something), it's not the end of the world. You get it back and the customer might yell a little. The Dr messes up and someone dies and a multi-million $$ lawsuite is filed.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 70
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 3:07:37 PM
Curious. Do you believe that humans are capable of truly compassionate acts, or does morality come down to self-interest a la game theory?


I do think people are capable of them. I do things every day for others that I don't have to do. Today, not so much. I did stand in a door-way holding it open for 30-45 seconds while my class-mates walked out. Didn't have to. I was also thanked by an instructor for a book I loaned her that she liked, and I made arrangements to loan her another.

Yesterday I stayed home except for the gym, where I offered to spot someone.

Saturday I bought a friend some salted pecans because she thought that sounded good and had never had any.

Friday I kinda stayed home, except for the gym where I offered to let someone use my boxing gloves, but they ended up not needing them.

Thursday I came to a music-show late. The guy performing is my roommate's Gf's X bf (complicated I know, but we all get along relatively well). I stayed at the bar late just to help him carry his instruments to the truck.

I was not compensated more than a "thankyou" for any of these things. I do random "nice" things through my day all the time, these are just single examples from a single day for the last few days that I can remember. Normally I see no need to list the "nice things" I do, because that isn't why I do them, but your message strongly hinted that you feel I don't do them, so I figured I would list a few that I can recall off the top of my head. However, the things I did all have one thing in common. They came from my heart, from my desire to do good, and not from a government mandate, or some power-shift that DICTATES that I do them. Paying taxes that were passed into law that you don't agree with is not compassion, it's following a law. Do not confuse them.
____________________

TO the below


No one saying your uncivilized...he only gave a generalization. But what in fact happens is that a tremedous amount of the cost of your education can be deminished because of UHC.The Fact that Universities and Colleges know how much money you can make in a privitized health care system allows them to substantually raise the tuition.


I pay around $15-2,000 a semester + on average $500 in books getting my BSN degree. Same as any other BS degree from what I have seen. I can't speak for med school, but then I am not in med school.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 71
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 3:14:29 PM
--Love when Canadians refer to America as uncivilized.---

No one saying your uncivilized...he only gave a generalization. But what in fact happens is that a tremedous amount of the cost of your education can be deminished because of UHC.The Fact that Universities and Colleges know how much money you can make in a privitized health care system allows them to substantually raise the tuition. Tutition for doctors in other UHC countries is quite a bit lower. A reason why so many Americans go to universities abroad for a degree...in medicine. By the way, no one pays 50 to 60 percent in taxes, even on the loan. And nurses up here make in equality the same wage...I know nurses that lived both sides of the border and they came back because they didn't want to pay the Health Insurance scam. You people in the states get a lot of missinformation, its not much different here than there...your taxation is exactly the same...yet we get UHC,hidden tax included 49% same as you. And that includes property taxes and state taxes etc....That includes all license fees and so on...the same. You just pay less for gas...you got more people and we got a bigger country...its that simple to understand...got nothing to do with health care...as a matter of fact...its paid for by the lotteries and casinos...plus an minor tax to employers...thats it...nothing more...a good system...don't cost me nothing...we run the casinos and lotteries..for that reason. Democracy in action.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 72
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 3:32:57 PM
Granz, the "They" I refer to are people who milk the system without ever putting back into it. You have to understand that I worked at a resturant for almost a year, and the people that came in there, some of them would whine and whine and WHINE about something stupid until they got their meal comped. I saw it every day. **** **** **** and no tipping, just want want want want all the free they can suck up. THOSE are the "they" I refer to. The kinds of people like that, who contribute nothing, yet want everything. Yes, I dislike them PERSONALLY as I dealt with them quite a bit. Not a vendetta really, but I wouldn't say that I don't have any axe to grind against that mentality either.

My desire to avoid socialism is because I am a constitutional moderate. I do not want my freedoms disturbed, and I do not wish to impose my will on others, yet socialism would impose their will on me. Unacceptable. It also mandates that the government again grow in power over the people. I am strongly against rule by government. I prefer rule by law, the way this country was originally set up. There must be a balance, and the balance in the last 50 years has tipped alarmingly towards the government side, moreso the closer to present-day you get in that 50 years.

What is going through my head when I do these things for people? Nothing really, I am just doing something that they appreciate because I think it would be nice to do. I don't keep that close a memory-log on my thoughts, so I can't speak for other times, but today while I held the door, I was also on the phone and on my way (obviously stationary, but you get the idea) to my car. I stood there a while and held it for everyone because it was something nice, and why not? I don't justify those things, I just do them. It is a part of who I am and I don't question it unless someone completely snubs me for doing it.

Last semester I loaned a girl a live-trap to catch racoons in that were getting in her house. She snubbed me after accepting. I called her aside and asked her what was going on and told her that I don't appreciate being talked down to all the time after loaning her something. She explained that something recently had happened that had made her not trust when someone is nice to her (guy who she had been friends with had been spreading rumors, and she is married, not good stuff). So yes, I was offended that I did something good and was, the very next day, treated very differently because my good-deed was interpreted wrongly. Other than things like that, I don't pay much attention to the aftermath of whatever I do. I do it and move on.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 73
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/24/2009 3:49:16 PM
Simple: Years, and years of hard training.
Logic and reason hasn't played a part in any really hot political debate in this country in my lifetime. Socialism is only one of the 'hot words' Americans have been trained to choke on by politicians from both parties, helped by purposely ignorant journalists who make their money from fanning flames.
The frustrating part for people who actually want to fix anything, or to debate anything realistically, is that very few of the people in a position to conduct a large public debate, actually understand even the basics of what they are discussing.
For example, I've heard talk for years from people who claim that they are opposed to all government regulation of business. Not one has demonstrated even a most rudimentary understanding of simple capitalism. Every single one has assumed that elimination of government regulation would leave in place all the regulations they LIKE.
Since almost no one actually knows how capitalism does and doesn't work, it' pretty easy to scare them with boogyman stories about alternatives.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 74
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 3:34:29 PM
....JWG86....My desire to avoid socialism is because I am a constitutional moderate. I do not want my freedoms disturbed, and I do not wish to impose my will on others, yet socialism would impose their will on me....

Seriously...well heres what you do if you don't like socialism...you resign your SSN..you can do that its legal...when that is done you are not obligated to pay Income taxes...and you will never be able to recieve Welfare...or social health care such as what your governments got now..you will not be able to work legally in your country but you can work Lawfully...there is a difference...you simply sign a contract with the employer...you can never be drafted, and you are not obligated to Statue Laws...you will not need a license to drive a car...and you do not need a license to open up any business you wish to open.....my friend your already a socialist. These are all facts...research them and see.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 75
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 7:25:05 PM

Seriously...well heres what you do if you don't like socialism...you resign your SSN..you can do that its legal...when that is done you are not obligated to pay Income taxes...and you will never be able to recieve Welfare...or social health care such as what your governments got now..you will not be able to work legally in your country but you can work Lawfully...there is a difference...you simply sign a contract with the employer...you can never be drafted, and you are not obligated to Statue Laws...you will not need a license to drive a car...and you do not need a license to open up any business you wish to open.....my friend your already a socialist. These are all facts...research them and see.


While the above is technically correct, if you have ever used a condom I could also call you a mass-murderer by the same logic. As a constitutional moderate, I am not against government, I am against what is commonly called "Big" government. I have no problem with supporting my country or contributing to it via taxes. I simply do not like the idea of a selective tax that targets certain income-groups to fund a president's pet-project, which the health-care bill could certainly be called. This forum seems to be very liberal, other forums, like Facebook (there was a rather large n population poll about this topic there) show that VERY FEW people like the plan. I guess it depends where you go.

By resigning my SSN, I would limit myself more than I would help myself when it comes to being free to perform my life as I saw fit in this country.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 76
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 8:24:27 PM
Forgive me for not being astonished, but life expectancy is a rather poor measure of overall health care efficacy. Agreed, infant mortality in the U.S. is much too high, but if one survives that perilous first year, the benighted American can expect to outlive the citizens of Canada and the rest of the progressive caste you googled.


and just why do you all think this is? Infant mortality an low APGAR scoring is a result of all the drugs that healthcare pumps into women (for comfort) and all the C-sections Dr's perform--in the name of saving time (schedualed and fast vs. natural). Yeah, depressing a baby's respiratory function and then speeding things up by C-section and preventing them from being compressed in the birth-canal (helps clear secretions,etc.) does have it's draw-backs. APGAR and high mortality rate.
It is because of the high levels of intervention we have in delivery, not lack of them. My entire L&D rotation I never saw a single baby score above 9 on the APGAR. In other countries where all this mollycoddling and C-section stuff does not occur, 10's are much more prevalent.
 slow_hand_001
Joined: 8/28/2006
Msg: 77
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 8:36:42 PM

Lets debate the merits of socialism over capitalism with respect to US health care, social assistance and economic policy. I think you will see that what you have sucks and that a socialist leaning policy shift will put your nation back on the map as a civilized place to live.


A most assanine statement if I ever heard one.

Leave us alone with our big screen TV's and 2 miles per gallon SUV's.
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 78
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History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 9:33:19 PM
Re:milesfromkansas
...overall health care efficacy

Four succinct words...worth looking up.

Our Health Insurance System: Privatizing Profits & Socializing Risk

The original $700 billion bailout package pushed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and the Bush Administration gave money to Wall Street with no way for taxpayers to recoup their money. Many objected to such a crude giveaway to private interests.

Yet that has been the dynamic in our health insurance system for decades. Private insurers fight to take on the least amount of risk, trying avoiding covering people who might get sick, leaving government with the bill for their care.

Medicare was first enacted because private insurance companies did not want to cover older people who are more likely to need medical care. Medicare is the federal program that provides publicly administered health insurance to people 65 years of age or older and to younger people with severe disabilities, According to "The Evolution of Medicare... From Idea to Law," by Peter A. Corning, found on the web site of the Social Security Administration:

"The 1950 census showed that the aged population had grown from 3 million in 1900 to 12 million in 1950, or from 4 to 8 percent of the total population. Two-thirds of these people had incomes of less than $1,000 annually, and only 1 in 8 had health insurance. Old people were long considered "bad risks" by commercial insurers, and unions had not made much headway in obtaining coverage for retired workers through employer-sponsored plans."


So the government took on the risk of providing automatic, guaranteed health coverage to everyone over the age of 65 when it enacted Medicare in 1965.

Over time, Medicare took on the risk of insuring two other costly sub-populations, whom the private insurance companies did not want to cover. In 1972, Medicare eligibility was extended to people with severe long-term disabilities (those who had received Social Security Disability checks for 24 months) and people with end-stage renal disease (those who require regular, costly dialysis treatment and/or a kidney transplant). In 2000, Medicare eligibility was extended once again to people with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS).

The irony is that while Medicare has been charged with covering the highest risk individuals, it still manages to keep costs down better than the private insurance companies that cover the less risky working population. And private insurance plans are now willing to cover people with Medicare because the government has been willing to hand them huge subsidies that far exceed the cost of providing care under the original Medicare program.

The same shifting of risk to taxpayers can be seen in the high-risk pools established in many states to cover the "medically uninsurable."

Many people who do not get health benefits through their employers are left to try to buy insurance in the individual insurance market. But insurance companies in the individual insurance market do all they can to avoid covering anyone who might pose a risk to their bottom lines. That includes anyone who has a pre-existing condition, such as asthma, diabetes or even hay fever.

So what have state governments done about it? Just six states have forced insurance companies to stop "cherry-picking" and accept anyone who applies. More than 30 states have instead chosen to socialize the risk by creating government-subsidized high-risk pools while letting the private insurance companies keep the profits of insuring the healthier population.

High-risk pools have not provided a workable solution to this backward fractioning of the risk pool because they undermine the very concept of insurance. As "Health Insurance: A Primer," by Bernadette Fernandez of the Congressional Research Service puts it:

"The main objective of insurance is to spread risk across a group of people. This objective is achieved in health insurance when people contribute to a common pool ("risk pool") an amount at least equal to the average expected cost resulting from use of covered services by the group as a whole. In this way, the actual costs of health services used by a few people are spread over the entire group. This is the reason why insuring larger groups is considered less risky—the more persons participating in a risk pool, the less likely that the serious medical experiences of one or a few persons will result in catastrophic financial loss for the entire pool." [Emphasis added.]


High-risk pools offer people a choice of private insurance plans with the state subsidizing a portion of the costly premium. The inevitable consequence has been that high-risk pools suffer from a myriad of problems that keep the medically uninsurable from accessing good, affordable health care. A study published in Health Affairs found that in most state high-risk pools:

"Coverage is expensive, the waiting period for coverage of preexisting conditions is long, and benefits may be limited... most discourage enrollment in the high-risk pool in myriad ways and fail to ensure access to the individual market for persons with health problems."


What we need is a public insurance option available to anyone who wants it, that assumes risk for its members, like Medicare. Giving people the choice of joining a public insurance plan that competes with the private plans is the way to drive competition and accountability from the private insurance market, and reduce overall health care costs. It can also protect people with costly conditions, whom profit-driven insurers will always try to avoid, while maintaining a healthy balance sheet for taxpayers with a large, fair risk pool.

http://www.insurancecompanyrules.org/blog/entry/privatizing_profits_socializing_risk/
So...Medicare was introduced because the private for profit insurance companies refused to cover those over 65 for one reason....profit...they had taken the peoples money for years, but now that they really need coverage...they get none....so the gov covers them. The companies see this and realize....WOW...all we have to do is find ways to refuse insurance to people with preexisting conditions and the gov will give us subsidies to insure them...and we still make a profit!

The insurance companies profit twice...once when you're healthy (they cover you but you don't need it)...and when you're old (or preexisting condition) by being subsidized by...guess what....you're own tax dollars.

Capone would be envious.


9 Steps To Implement Comprehensive Quality Health Care for All Americans…....

What Government Does Better: Health Insurance
Howard A. Green, MD, FACP, FAAD, FACMS

You’ll listen to me because I’m your doctor. I only have your health interests in mind. I have written this article without ‘prior authorization’ from any insurance companies.

There are some intuitively obvious services that the government runs more productively and efficiently than private for-profit enterprises. For example, our armed forces and GI’s conquer and hold and protect territory more effectively and at a fraction of cost of private militias such as Blackwater USA and the Crescent Security Corporations. In addition, the government rules and regulations which our governments’ military adhere to insure an ethical cohesive fighting force compared to the unregulated for-profit corporate armies. Our GI soldiers assigned to kitchen duty prepare and cook meals at a fraction of the cost of identically prepared meals from the private for-profit logistics divisions of the Halliburton or Kellog Brown and Root Corporations. Government regulated public education in America such as the undergraduate and college systems of the City of New York and other large metropolises have for over a century produced more CEO’s, doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, chemists, poets, philosophers and military officers than any private school system, and at a fraction of the cost compared to all the private schools in the country combined. Take away the government grants, government tax breaks, and government sponsored free overseas labor from Americas top private Colleges and their classrooms and graduate programs would most likely shut down, no matter how large their private endowments. The government run and regulated public school systems of Israel, India and China are churning out competent engineers, scientists and entrepreneurs at a quality and rate much greater than that of any collection of private schools in any country in the world. These non-American people, highly educated by their government run school systems, have formed a new collective worldwide labor arbitrage system which is fueling the productivity of intercontinental private business. The Marshall Plan, Interstate Highways, Space Program, Peace Corps, and the GI Bill all demonstrate successful government run bureaucracies of their time.

In a similar fashion, our mammoth government-run health insurance company (Medicare) operates at a fraction of the cost of private insurance corporations such as Aetna, Cigna, United, Blue Shield Blue Cross, Kaiser Permanente and Humana. Medicare, the government health insurance for the elderly uses only 1-2% of your dollar to achieve rates of morbidity (sickness) and mortality (death) among their patients which are identical to those of the private health insurance corporations. However, private insurance corporate bureaucracies inefficiently siphon $350 billion per year, or 20-25% of your hard earned dollars away from doctors, hospitals and patient care into the pockets of their executives, administrative employees, shareholders and politicians. The recent stock option fraud perpetrated by the CEO of United Health Care demonstrates the negligent disdain the private insurance corporations have for physicians, hospitals, health care workers and patients. Since their founding 40 years ago, private health maintenance insurance corporations have failed to deliver what their business plans always promise; lower rates of morbidity and mortality associated with low costs to the patients. These insurance companies are financially profitable for their shareholders and executives, but medically bankrupt for their patients. Without their own massive government subsidies, government protection from malpractice lawsuits, and a government ban on collective bargaining by physicians the private health insurance corporate bureaucracies of Aetna, Cigna, United and Humana, and hundreds of other smaller health insurance companies of the health insurance industry would undoubted fail to exist. Most elderly people who call themselves Republicans, and conservative physicians in this Country have recognized the efficacy of our government regulated Medicare health insurance corporation and have enrolled themselves and utilized this Government run health insurance company for their own medical needs (despite the shrill cries of socialized medicine from their leaders). 40 years ago we heard these same shrill cries from organized medicine and Republicans concerning the establishment of Medicare. After accepting hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicare Insurance payments over the ensuing 4 decades, one can only wonder why conservative physicians still rally like Quixote against this government run insurance product.

The following 9 steps will simply suggest how, without the inefficiencies and burden to productivity of private insurance corporations, we can deliver efficient and effective comprehensive health care with great savings and no sacrifice of jobs. In fact, we may be able to decrease morbidity and mortality in this Country with one coordinated system which cares for all Americans, and concurrently analyzes optimal diagnoses and treatment modalities through its integrated computerized billing system. The savings incurred insuring all Americans through the more efficient Medicare system will benefit all citizens of our Country.

9 Steps to Comprehensive Quality Health Care in America
1) Shut down the private health insurance corporations.

2) Enroll all Americans (including Veterans) and the 40 million uninsured citizens into the Medicare Health Insurance Corporation. Since the current functioning Medicare Insurance Company is already accepted by almost all physicians, Hospitals and clinics in the Country, hardly any infrastructure investments on the health care delivery end will be necessary. Have all private businesses pay a Medicare premium for their employees instead of private health insurance premiums. Let employees as well as businesses contribute a fixed premium amount based on their age up until 65 for their Medicare services and drugs. Freeze current premiums for all Americans over 65 and adjust in the future according to the cost of living index. These premiums paid by businesses to Medicare for their employees should be less than that paid to current private insurance companies because of the lower overhead costs of the Medicare Corporation and improved risk distribution.

3) Hire the now unemployed former private health insurance corporate bureaucrats to actually deliver and not inhibit health care by working in hospitals, doctors’ offices, clinics and nursing homes around our Country. Demographically, the percentage of elderly Americans is rapidly increasing. With every American now insured through Universal Medicare Insurance, real health care workers will be in desperate need. For the first time in the brief but bloody history of managed care, these former private insurance corporation employees will actually touch and improve care for patients by working in physical therapy, nursing, home health care and other ancillary patient care capacities.

4) Obtain by eminent domain (for the public good) the best of the intellectual property protected computer codes which the closed private insurance businesses previously used to monitor patient care and doctors utilization and performance. Private health insurance companies have used these computer programs exclusively for the purpose of strong-arming their contracted health care providers into doing less for their patients and increasing the premium costs for sicker patients in order to achieve higher corporate profits. Medicare on the other hand can use these same computer programs for the common good; to monitor, collect data and eventually improve the efficacy of diagnoses and the treatment of diseases and medical outcomes every time a doctor submits a bill. For example, wouldn’t it be nice to know as a medical consumer (patient) which oncology groups in Boston, New York or Houston have the highest cure rates for stage III breast cancer or Stage II prostate cancer? All those numbers currently exist in cancer registries nation wide and just need to be collected and honestly disseminated. Currently, instead of solid medical data which delineates morbidity and mortality and performance, the medical consumer when choosing an oncologist must rely on word of mouth, physician referrals or advertisements in the local papers which show photographs of smiling doctors in white coats who claim to be the ‘best’ doctors in town. In addition to garnering invaluable instantaneous epidemiologic data on diagnoses and treatment of diseases based on severity and other variables, a strong Medicare based utilization review computer code would also allow Medicare to monitor doctors and hospitals who abuse a fee-for-service billing system. Any physician, institution or service found to abuse the Medicare fee for service billing system after proper review and appeal should be dealt with severely through stiff penalties and loss of their Universal Medicare provider contract.

5) Freeze Medicare physician, hospital and ancillary services reimbursements at current 2007-2008 levels. Adjust reimbursements for future services yearly by Cost of Living increases, or in the event of a deflationary economy a decreases in doctor and hospital payments. Ask any physician and they’ll tell you they would accept current reimbursement rates with COLA over the current mysterious illogical fee adjustment system of Medicare, or the physician population density reimbursement formula used by most private insurance corporations. Two tiered medical systems separating the “haves and have not’s” of society have and will always exist. Therefore, we must allow physicians to practice medicine without enrolling in or accepting the Universal Medicare reimbursement. With private medical insurance no longer available, and no performance based evidence for improved morbidity and mortality among their private for-pay patients, these extraordinarily expensive private ‘VIP’ practices will be limited.

6) Allow Medicare, much like the current Veterans Administration System and every private health insurance company and government health care system around the world, to bid on medications from pharmaceutical corporations for its Medicare drug formulary. Every physician recognizes that we don’t need a choice of a dozen redundant drugs in each pharmaceutical category. For example, we need only 2-3 statins for cholesterol, a handful of antibiotics for infections, 2 beta blockers for hypertension, and a few pain killers. Once the Government bids on pharmaceuticals for the Medicare Corporation formulary, macro economics will force prices to massively decrease to levels identical to that which all the other people of the world outside of America are paying for the same medicines. Since it has not effectively decreased morbidity or mortality in this Country, and only wastes money, we should also prohibit pharmaceutical companies and their workers from contributing to political campaigns or buying commercials on the public airways. We need to also prohibit the current practice whereby your local pharmacy and pharmacist sells your private medical diagnoses and your doctors private prescribing drug information to pharmaceutical companies so the pharmaceutical companies in-turn can directly pressure-market physicians. Prohibit pharmaceutical companies from contributing to organized medicine societies, colleges or associations because the doctors can’t rely on soft bribes or free lunches to prescribe what’s best for their patients. Prevent pharmaceutical representatives from visiting doctors’ offices or hospital pharmacies directly. Allow delivery of Medicare formulary approved sample medications for patients to physicians’ offices via post office mail only. Allow pharmaceutical companies to market products to physicians only via peer reviewed publications delivered by email or snail mail.

7) With the savings incurred from closing the private insurance corporations and paying less for drugs, have the American government fully fund the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the National Cancer Institute (NCI) and Small Business Innovative Research (SBIR) programs. Emphasis should be placed on basic bench research carried out at not-for-profit American Institutions which employ or utilize a majority of American Citizens in their laboratories and clinics. Too often American Universities rely on free overseas labor to conduct bench research. Clinical trials should emphasize new drugs and devices which have promise to significantly decrease morbidity and mortality for any disease, including orphan diseases. Since a large percentage of private funding for drug and device studies will originate in the expanding financial liquidity and innovations and patients of the emerging developing world, we should allow the FDA to utilize research data obtained by reproduced laboratory and clinical studies performed overseas as well as in this Country.

Corruption of honest academics should be curtailed. Force all investigators to release reproduced publicly funded scientific data for all scientists to review on the internet via the Freedom of Information act (The Senator Shelby Amendment). Prohibit rights of first refusal on scientific data for private companies performing research in non-for profit institutions which receive public funding. Any rights to profits obtained from intellectual property and patents invented with combined funding from government and private sources should be split fairly among the contributing government institutions and any other private corporations funding the research, as well as with the individual inventor. Prevent organized medicine societies, associations or colleges from contributing to political campaigns since campaign donations have no relevance for physician performance or patient morbidity or mortality.

8) Offer physicians the same legal protection from malpractice lawsuits which have been established for commercial health insurance corporations during the last 3 decades.

9) The quality of current medical records software lags two decades behind business software. Therefore, we need to fund and challenge America’s best software corporations to finally develop standardized electronic medical records software for use in doctors’ offices and hospitals in order to increase the efficiency and productivity of physician charting, billing and prescribing. We should use the integrated medical records system to instantaneously and confidentially gather important epidemiologic data on physicians’ performance, patient diseases, and treatments. With new potent viruses and unsophisticated biomedical and nuclear warfare on the horizon, this system will be absolutely necessary for rapid National Security responses. Protect patient confidentiality at all costs to prevent the commercialization and abuse of patient data like that which the pharmacies trade today.

Lastly, some argue that Universal Government run health care in America will result in delays in diagnosis and treatment similar to those experienced in Britain and Canada. One can not simply compare the massive extremely functional Medicare insurance corporation based infrastructure which seamlessly delivers health care to tens of millions of people yearly in the USA to the government run westernized health care systems of Canada and Britain, France, Switzerland, Netherlands, Scandinavia, and Israel. America, for the last 40 years, thanks to the government run health insurance corporation-Medicare, has built an incredibly dense and fluid public insurance system involving almost all doctors’ offices, hospitals, clinics and ancillary services. The Medicare system dwarfs in breadth and actual practitioners and efficacy the lesser insurance systems established in all other countries. The billing and reimbursement bureaucracy for health care providers contracted with Medicare Insurance is already relatively streamlined and efficiently centralized in America thanks to 40 years of physician, hospitals and government cooperation.

We all know that the medically bankrupt private health insurance corporations and medical malpractice lawsuit threats have caused many disheartened physicians to quit practicing or downsize their practices in America. A continuation and technological upgrading of our most fair Universal Medicare based health insurance Corporation based on the concepts outlined above would undoubtedly motivate those disenfranchised physicians to return to the profession and bright younger physicians to invigorate the field. If patients, physicians and the Medicare Corporation continue to work together, without the deleterious interference of private for-profit health insurance corporations, malpractice threats and overt pharmaceutical marketing, the future for American health care will be healthy indeed.. A continuation of the status-quo mixture of a government subsidized private health maintenance insurance industry operating parallel to and within Medicare is wasteful, and will continue to provide no potential future health improvements for America.

Ibid





...the benighted American....


be⋅night⋅ed
–adjective
1. intellectually or morally ignorant; unenlightened: benighted ages of barbarism and superstition.
2. overtaken by darkness or night.
Origin:
1565–75; benight ( be- + night ) + -ed 2
Related forms:
be⋅night⋅ed⋅ly, adverb
be⋅night⋅ed⋅ness, noun
Synonyms:
1. backward, primitive, crude, uncultivated.

This is how you describe your fellow countrymen?
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 79
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 10:16:40 PM
This needs to be said again.

Infant mortality an low APGAR scoring is a result of all the drugs that healthcare pumps into women (for comfort) and all the C-sections Dr's perform--in the name of saving time (schedualed and fast vs. natural). Yeah, depressing a baby's respiratory function and then speeding things up by C-section and preventing them from being compressed in the birth-canal (helps clear secretions,etc.) does have it's draw-backs. APGAR and high mortality rate.
It is because of the high levels of intervention we have in delivery, not lack of them. My entire L&D rotation I never saw a single baby score above 9 on the APGAR. In other countries where all this mollycoddling and C-section stuff does not occur, 10's are much more prevalent.

....high levels of intervention....

...not necessarily for the patients comfort nor their well being....

...herding humans like cattle?

How low will we go?
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 80
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 9:31:31 AM
Not to side-track the discussion, but I'm really curious about this. This is the first I've ever heard about resigning your social-security number. I tried to do some research, but I haven't found anything that confirms this. Could you pull up some information for me?


^^ I don't think this is possible, to 'resign' it, unless one gives up one's US citizenship. Even then , it's probably stored somewhere , that the person was (is) a former US citizen who gave up citizenship. Most people born here today likely get issued one shortly after birth.

" In the United States, a Social Security number (SSN) is a nine-digit number issued to U.S. citizens, permanent residents, and temporary (working) residents under section 205(c)(2) of the Social Security Act, codified as 42 U.S.C. § 405(c)(2). The number is issued to an individual by the Social Security Administration, an independent agency of the United States government.

Its primary purpose is to track individuals for taxation purposes. In recent years the SSN has become a de facto national identification number.[1] The first SSNs were issued by the Social Security Administration in November 1936 as part of the New Deal Social Security program. Within three months, 25 million numbers were issued.[3]

Before 1986, people often did not have a Social Security number until the age of about 14, since they were used for income tracking purposes, and those under that age seldom had substantial income. In 1986, American taxation law was altered so that individuals over 5 years old without Social Security numbers could not be successfully claimed as dependents on tax returns; by 1990 the threshold was lowered to 1 year old,[4] and was later abolished altogether. Since then, parents have often applied for Social Security numbers for their children soon after birth; today, it can be done on the application for a birth certificate.[5]

The original purpose of this number was to track individuals' accounts within the Social Security program. It has since come to be used as an identifier for individuals within the United States, although rare errors occur where duplicates do exist. Employee, patient, student, and credit records are sometimes indexed by Social Security number. The U.S. Armed Forces has used the Social Security number as an identification number for the Army and Air Force since July 1, 1969, the Navy and Marine Corps since January 1, 1972, and the Coast Guard since October 1, 1974.[6]

Social Security was originally a universal tax, but when Medicare was passed in 1965, objecting religious groups in existence prior to 1951 were allowed to opt out of the system.[7] Because of this, not every American is part of the Social Security program, and not everyone has a number. However, a social security number is required for parents to claim their children as dependents for federal income tax purposes,[5] and the Internal Revenue Service requires all corporations to obtain SSNs (or alternative identifying numbers) from their employees, as described below. Americans who agree to pay extra taxes and do not work for corporations can continue to live without Social Security. The Old Order Amish have fought to prevent universal Social Security by overturning rules such as a requirement to provide a Social Security number for a hunting license.[8]

Social Security Cards up until the 1980s expressly stated the number and card were not to be used for identification purposes. Since nearly everyone in the United States now has a number, it became convenient to use it anyway and the message was removed.[9]

Although some people do not have an SSN assigned to them, it is becoming increasingly difficult to engage in legitimate financial activities such as applying for a loan or a bank account without one.[10] Corporations are not required to employ persons without a number.[11]

hree different types of Social Security cards are issued. The most common type contains the cardholder's name and number. Such cards are issued to U.S. citizens and U.S. permanent residents. There are also two restricted types of Social Security cards:

* One reads "NOT VALID FOR EMPLOYMENT." Such cards cannot be used as proof of work authorization, and are not acceptable as a List C document on the I-9 form.
* The other reads "VALID FOR WORK ONLY WITH DHS AUTHORIZATION." These cards are issued to people who have temporary work authorization in the U.S. They can satisfy the I-9 requirement, if they are accompanied by a work authorization card.

In 2004 Congress passed The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act; parts of which mandated that the Social Security Administration redesign the Social Security Number (SSN) Card to prevent forgery. From April 2006 through August, 2007, Social Security Administration (SSA) and Government Printing Office (GPO) employees were assigned to redesign the Social Security Number Card to the specifications of the Interagency Task Force created by the Commissioner of Social Security in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security.

The new SSN card design utilizes both covert and overt security features created by the SSA and GPO design teams. "

above, from,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/26/weekinreview/the-nation-not-for-identification-purposes-just-kidding.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2682567/Social-Security-Number-Not-Required <--this site explains how it is NOT (technically) "required" of everyone born (or naturalized) here to have one. But once you have one, I don't believe there is any true (legal) way of getting rid of it.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 82
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:42:58 AM
^^ I agree with that; some Americans tend to overdo it with the "land of the free" thing, as though everyone, even our own next-door neighbours to the north, as well as western Europe, etc, are living under some sort of despotic regimes. It is part of American ethnocentrism (although that's not really the right word perhaps because 'American' is not truly an ethnicity), so let's say it's part of American nationalism that this occurs. A sort of jingoism we are given here from grade school onward.

They don't literally SAY to us that these other countries, let's call them for lack of a better word other 'Western' countries (which, upon doing any research, one can easily learn are actually well-to-do and 'free' countries just like the United States) are LESS 'free' than us, but it's always kind of implied to us in a sense. That we have something here, which they never really define to you (probably couldn't define really), that Canada, western Europe, Australia, etc, simply do not have. Even though those are all 'free' and relatively well-off countries in their own right, and in some cases some countries are even doing better economically and report higher standards of living, personal happiness, etc, than the US (Scandinavian countries for example).

It's like the whole "shining city on the hill" kind of thinking. Today it may be a flat-broke and militarily overextended city on the hill, but....that way of thinking persists nonetheless, and it's deeply rooted in the consciousness of many Americans.
 sammylg
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 83
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 12:05:25 PM
sigh...Firstly the OP is mistaken. Canada is NOT a socialist country. The old soviet union was a socialist nation. Canada is a progressive capitalistic country. The government does not control our financial output, they do not force egalitarian compensation.

However, Canada does tax the wealthy more, they tax corporations more than the US. So, there is a distribution of wealth that is more prevalent than the US, but Canada is more in the middle of the Socialist/Capitalist economic model, while the US is much futher towards the Capitalist side.

Secondly many Americans support health care reform. Actually most do. The health care system in the US is one of the least efficient in the world and many people learn of how bad the system becomes once they require catastrophic assistance.

However, what Americans are divided over is how it is administered. I, like many Americans don't want the US government involved in this program and definitely don't want a single payer system. Some do. Some believe government should have a bigger role in their lives. I am not one of them.....AND I AM A CANADIAN CITIZEN.

I think the Canadian system is even more flawed, not the for the government, but for the users. I was all in favor when Harper was looking into a two tier system, as a lesser of two evils. But it seems like Canadians all want their Douglasian NDP style health care, so who am I to complain...I just moved to the states (well for other reasons too!)
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 84
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 12:48:49 PM
Nicely said Dino...in fact a SSN or SIN are Employment Identification Numbers..for taxation and such as you stated..but you missed one thing..its based on Admiralty Law the law of the sea, the US, Britian, Canada, Australia, N. Zeland and most of the British commonwealth.. along with other Anglo-Saxon countries actually are legally based on Common Law the law of the land. The Bill of Rights and in Canada the Charter of Rights are based on Anglo Saxon Commonlaw...freedoms are undesputed...once you sign up for a SSN or SIN you become a working agent for the Government thus a pension and all the perks that go with it...including Income taxes...In 1895 the Supreme Court of the US stated that Income taxes are illegal because there is no profit in wages...its a fair exchange. Thus no Commerce is done. But once you sign up for the SS or SIN you become an working agent for the government. Therefore your rights turn into benefit Previldges and are desputable. Rights are Undesputed...One think tho...in Canada we have the right, under our constitution to create a "Claim of Rights and Intent"...and what that means is that the Soverign born Freewill Man/Woman can use there SIN as an agent for commerce...therefore paying the agent a sum of $3,500 a yr for the service...that means no income taxes seeing that there is no commerce...and not subject to Statue laws or Acts....the freewill Adult Man/woman then has the right to keep there money...and 30,000 Canadians are doing this at this time....In the US you have the right to create a UCC-1 document that allows you the soverign to maintain all your property, even under bankruptcy...you see the Fiction or Strawman...the capitalized name is a Corporate Identity or a Fiction not a human being. Its a name game...

DetaxCanada.com....give it a read...good info for Americans there too...after all your Law is CommonLaw also.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 85
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:26:28 PM
milesformKansas...you don't know what your talking about.

---Allow me to enlighten you, my darling product of a leftist educational experiment.---

That is one dumb statement.

---the downside of which is that you wouldn't have a competent health care system just to the south to flee to when you *really* needed to treat that tumor.---

My ex just got diagnosed with Cancer...within a wk she was getting Radiation treatments..maybe thats why so many Americans try to get into Canada because they CAN'T GET TREATMENT...you watch too much TV.


---Being a Commonwealth territory, Canada jumped on the bandwagon shortly thereafter.---
---The Canadian and continental experiment with socialized medicine arose immediately after WWII, when European national economies were shattered by war and debt.---

Not so Milesformnowhere...it was introduced in Saskatchewan first...when the nation saw that it worked it became national...Europe had nothing to do with it....poverty did. The dirty 30s happened here also. Tommy Douglas under a the CCF created the health care act....there has never been a Socialistic Government established thru elections on the Federal level...there have been ones on Provincial levels...and when the Povincial CCF or NDP governments were in place...the feds seen what benefits they created and established them on a national level. And of course took the credit.


--As promulgated by the Labor/Socialists in power, only centralized planning could rebuild the health care systems of Britain and France.--

Not so...they realized that they could create more economy by supporting a national health care system...why spend money on killing people when they could spend money on saving lives...they just ended a major war and millions of civilians were in need of care...after all the USA Britian and Canada bombed there industry, they had nothing to start over with...USA and Canada benefited by retooling Europe and Japan, thats where most of the wealth of the US and Canada came after the war. Now they are taking over economically. What did you say. Labour Socialist powers...sounds like capitalism to me.

---As a current Tory MP pointed out recently, the third largest employer in the world is the British National Health Service, with about 1.4 million employees.---

Do they have jobs...are they paying taxes...are they not supporting the system...same with garbage men.


---I believe that competition for my business, whether it be for pharmaceuticals, physicians or physical therapy, maintains the highest standards of medical care in the world, and, despite the absurd malpractice jury awards, is also the most cost-effective.---

Is that why the US government bans Canadian Pharmacudicals..because there expensive. and as far as the highest standard of medical care...I don't think so...in capitalism the less you stay in the hospital...the less it cost your insurance companies...you know...capitalism. Cost effective you say...I don't think so. American health care ranks well below and I mean below UHC countries. Do a little research on the WHO and get the gyst. You watch to much TV.

--I hope you will pause to consider this, my love.(What an arrogant ass) You have been inculcated by your teachers and peers to believe that what you have is the best that can be had, given the circumstances.(Are you talking to me or yourself) Your health care system is a relic from the past. (Yea we still bleed people to cure them..do you actually know what your talking about) It is inefficient and ineffective, compared to the U.S. model, which is based on that nasty word 'capitalism'. After all, how many Americans go to Canada for that surgery or treatment, compared to the other way around?--

Is that why Regan went to Germany to cure his prostrate Cancer...European medicine leaves American medicine well behind...way back..

Before we put our pictures on our health card, you could purchase a Canadian health card on the black market in the states for a few grand...this had to be done because the Capitalist in the states couldn't afford there health care system at all, so thousands and thousands of Americans crossed the border to get free health care...this drained our system...no different than the Mexicans are doing to you people...to solve this drain on the economy..we simply printed our pretty little pictures on the cards...unfortunately those Americans who needed health care can no longer blackmarket the cards...they got a special stripe on the back...you know...I lived on a border town...and for yrs we would sell our health cards to the highest bidder from the US...thats a fact...all I had to do was get a new card...it was quite a profit stimulator...I once bought a car with the money on one card..buddy you got no clue what your talking about...I needed a car the guy needed an operation. Simple as that.

--A government - the US federal government - cannot be a competitor to private enterprise, when it alone as the ability to regulate (and effectively destroy) that private enterprise, when "competition" is unfavorable to its goals.--

The government...is the people...it says that on your constitution..you know...We the People...when competition becomes a monopoly or to a point of despotism where few control the reins...weres the competitions...who is the government suppose to look after..the CEOs. For some reason...your reasoning represents that the Government is some sort of seperate entity from the people who vote those boneheads in...unfortunately...there rich with lots of dough invested in the Pharmacudical trade, Military trade, energy trade etc etc etc...thats the problem. That in itself is the true debate...privitazed health care could be a great thing...but insurance companies are not in business to put money out...they want profit for the investors and the people who run the organizations...same with car insurance..you never get what you pay for...never.

milefromkansas..you don't know nothing about the Canadian health care system...nothing..except what YOU have been told..from who I do not know...Canadian research is second to none...and thats in the world...we may be tied...but we are not lagging behind no one...we have some of the most modern hospitals and staff...compared to anywere...Sick Childrens hospital is world renown..and in Toronto, the Jarvnik Cancer Clinc part of MacMaster University in Hamilton Ont world renoun, University of Calgary medical science labs are world renoun...right now there is a group of Physicist, permanent gathering in the University of Guelph Ont. with the worlds leading Psyshicist trying to crack the code of the one theory that binds all science..world renoun. Montreal, Vancouver etc etc etc...top of the field in organ transplants...there is so much good news in our health care system that UHC created....without.....PROFIT....but for the sake of humanity. You based your opinion on the doctors who left Canada for the Big Bucks in the US...that doesn't mean you get good health care...that means you pay more.
 pappy009
Joined: 2/3/2008
Msg: 86
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:59:26 PM
UHC is one thing...what bothers me the most about socialism is welfare...you know where the masses dole out money to the welfare bums..you know who..the corporate welfare bums...the Banks..Auto Industry...insurance industry...the White Collar Welfare Bums. And they took Trillions...now thats true capitalism. And they been doing it for yrs. And these guys are very R.i.c.h...they blackmail the government or threaten to lay people off... I think its got to the point that people don't even know what it means to be in a true Capitalistic society anymore...and the reason is that...the Rick pricks are robbing us blind. Where is the competition anymore...oil companies vary between 1/10 of a cent on a gallon of gas...is that competition...its despotism..how about Pharmacudical Drugs...the Flu shot...the swine flu is a con job world wide. I can't believe American news anymore...the Left hates the Right...the Right hates the Left...and the media stirs it up...to the right they think a person who is left wing is a commie and the left see people on the right as Nazis....and the media once again stirs the pot of shit...when you do that...it smells worst than before. You guys have been pissing on the Canadian health system and don't even know what your talking about...so I am going to talk about the issues of Left and Right in the states...why the hell are you people seperating yourselves to this degree...we got left and Right and Socalist in Canada...3 parties...so if your pissed at one...there gone...but there is that little party..the NDP that seem to tell the truth all the time...you ain't got something like that. By the way...I'm a Libertarian...we got them in Canada too...its called the Canadian Action Party and its gaining momentum. the Green Party...there a joke...there only issue is the enviroment...thats easily used by the corporation..you know the Carbon Tax...tax the air you breathe..what else can they tax..taxation...upon taxation and the left does it and so does the right...only the Right give the rich a break and piss on the middle class...the trickle down effect is not capitalism..thats what the royality did in the past...so your economy is not based on Capitalism at all...but Totalitarian Capitalism controled by the royalty of the US. Capitalism is from the ground up not the top down...thats the Piss on you Economy. When the people of any country...owns the resources of that country...which you do...how can you have..Privatization...thats not capitalism...thats greed...why not just give them your children too.

The people who wrote the US constitution...to the British at the time were Renegades....

America is already socialistic and have socalism in the books...there called Statue Acts enforced As Law...there not law...there acts and acts need consent. There are no freedoms under Admiarlty Law which you live by...your courts are British Commerce Courts because you borrow your money from the Monarchy of England, the Bank of England and the Vatican...the IMF the only bank in the world...no different that any of the western nations...they tried to take your guns off of you during the Clinton Yrs...there scared of Americans...I don't care who they are but if any country ever tried to invade the US...even China...they would be outgunned 3-1...I respect that. As a Libertarian your constitution and My constitution is the ****ing law..end of story...our governments are corporation responsible to the Central Banking system....they have been sinking us into a false socialistic egnima...but in the end its all about slavery of the masses.

One of the basic concepts of the Communist Manifesto is a Central Banking System...the Federal Reserve and little do many know that Canada is in the 13th district of the US Federal Reserve...that the Corporation of Canada and the Corporation of the US are legal corporations under the US Treasury...I thought at one time we were countries...so ladies and gentlemen it matters not were your from or what country you live in...they are taking your soverign rights away...and RIGHTS ARE UNDESPUTED. We've had socialism for yrs...its called charity. But for some reason the Star Chamber doesn't want you to truly understand that we are the power.

There is one way to beat it...Resign from the Corporations of Canada and the US...give up your SS OR SIN number, your not a Roman Citizen, your a soverign born Freeman on the Land....your not an agent of the corporation. Being a Citizen is a misconception, it only means that your part of there club.

Your a soverign born freewill Man/Woman created by G-d, as it states in Section 1 of the Canadian Constitution...that means you answer only to G-d...even the athiest...its not about religion is represents that no one has authority over you...not even your Representative Governments. Thats what real freedom is...CommonLaw...the Do Unto others. In the US a Republic means that you are Self Governing..and no one has authority over you...we just use different words but its all Common Law.

ThinkFree.ca
DetaxCanada.ca



So lets not waste our time about socialism...its normal for people to be there brothers keeper...we have been doing it since the beginning of time...Socalism is a word to scare you. Socalism is not Communism...Communism is Communaliztion, with a central banking system...socialism is something like We the People, For the People, By the People...Society of the People. Socalism is a word that is so sickly played out to condition you to accept the dictates of those in the Star Chamber above the law.

Think Free...Be Free...
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 87
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:17:03 PM

....high levels of intervention....

...not necessarily for the patients comfort nor their well being....

...herding humans like cattle?

How low will we go?


In reference to my post on APGAR/interventions, etc...

You must take into account that the women are as much to blame as the Dr's. They have scheduals, they are working, they want to go on vacation, etc. The C-section is very convenient. Also, just try REFUSING a woman her spinal/epidural in America. She would go batshit crazy on you. Here in America we have turned child-birth into some molly-coddled thing that elevates women to the status of godhood almost. In other countries--where infant mortality is lower--women go in, have the baby, and hit the field that afternoon working. There is no 72 hour PP stay, there is no epidural, there is none of that.

Now I am not in favor of that behavior, all I am saying is we are a pampered society and our babies are paying the price. It is our mentality as a people causing these problems, not necessarily deficient medical-care. I hypothesize that if LESS medical interventions were available, infant mortality *could* go down like we see in other nations with less.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 88
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:15:17 PM

Also, just try REFUSING a woman her spinal/epidural in America. She would go batshit crazy on you.


Really.
Interesting.

Generalizations do nothing to strengthen a point. In fact, they do much to undermine any credibility one might have garnered up to that time when a generalization is tossed into a discussion.

Signed:
A Woman Who Was Refused An Epidural and Did Not Go Batshit Crazy on Anyone
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 89
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:13:00 PM
You are still trying to draw a correlation between low APGARS, medical interventions (via epidurals or c-sections) and infant mortality. I am still asking you to site the study. Please give me the medical evidence or admit this is just something you are making up, your opinion as a nursing student.


Aside from it being taught by our instructors, here is a study, others of course can be found without much trouble.:

Here is your higher mortality rate for C-section babies: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/60508/higher_infant_death_rates_accompany_pg2_pg2.html?cat=52

and here is your low apgar for epidurals:
http://www.sarahjbuckley.com/articles/epidural-risks.htm
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