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 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 90
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?Page 4 of 28    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28)
I simply grabbed the first thing that popped up, sorry. I would rip something from our databases, but that stuff is rather copywrited and I would not like to get slammed for that one. I am sure you can google plenty of studies that show it to be a problem. It isn't always, but many times it can cause respiratory depression in the baby, depending on what drug is used and when it is given. That will certainly lower APGARs.

The point remains that the more drugs you pump into the mother, the more possible complications you introduce into the birth.

No, I will not blame it all on pharmacological intervention and C-sections, but it is quite obvious even to the un-trained eye that our nation is over-medicated to an extreme.
Here is a more reputable article for you. No epidurals are not all horrible and evil, but they can and do cause lower Apgar's quite often.

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102215643.html
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 91
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 10:27:19 PM

and it's deeply rooted in the consciousness of many Americans.


Yes, sir, it is. And I'm proud to be one of them. None of the countries you mentioned has accomplished anything even close to what the United States has. We have a Constitution which doesn't authorize the sort of governments they have. They are welfare states, even more so than the U.S. has become, and the high taxes that requires hinder their productivity by reducing incentive.
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 92
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:33:00 PM

...Canada is in the 13th district of the US Federal Reserve.

Only if a NAMU is enacted. God forbid it ever happens.
 coolshoeshine
Joined: 5/27/2009
Msg: 93
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 6:31:25 AM
I love America and I love the ideal of free health care but it is the same problem as these stimulus packages!!! Where is the money for these programs coming from? Budget cuts in many areas, foreign loans, more tariffs, or loans from the Federal Reserve?! Honestly the only that makes sense do to would be tariffs aka taxes! Yes it would be a burden on us but health care is meant for us!

I'm sorry but if our nation is so great why is it we're one of the largest countries in debt? Yet we house some of the richest corporations in the world?! I'd love to see everyone one of us with free health care and brand new cars (cash for clunkers) but not at the cost of borrowing from foreign powers or the federal reserve deepening our depth!

Oh and socialism isn't a form of a political system it is a form of an economic system! You guys can argue all day which is more evil capitalism or socialism but it is not the systems that fail or are evil its the political and personal motives behind them that fail or corrupt the system!
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 94
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 9:39:14 AM
^^^ Well said. I fully concur.
 insert user name
Joined: 5/4/2006
Msg: 95
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 12:26:54 PM

Alexander Hamilton and John Adams were part of a minority group who wanted to establish an American Monarchy. So, the idea of government taking care of everyone fit thier ideal government. But they were a minority. We do not have a Monarchy! John Adams even went so far as to make dissent against the law. Something I am surprised the Obamanation has not picked up on.


Wow...your grasp of American history is...baffling. John Adams "monarchy" was situated within his Pamphlet "Thoughts on Government", where he argued that social status played an important role in government and that society had to understand that in order to thrive. He supported Bicameralism as a means of political power control, oh wait...WE have a bicameral government!


Under socialism a person cannot truley be free. You are not free to be productive. You will be punished by mindless taxes. Under socialism you allow the government to make descisions for you. Because cost effectivness will always be the government's objective.


Then why are you still here? The US government is already heavily socialized for the purposes of providing general welfare for its citizens. Under the true free market, Little Timmy spends his childhood stitching Nike shoes together for the more developed nations. If you want a true free market, you might want to think about moving someplace like Chad, because you wont find it here.


Only the free market offers true freedom. You cannot compare the US to Canada or Europe. That is comparing apples to lemons. And there are no other apples to compare us to.
But if Canada and Europe is so great, why are you here. Jump on a plane and go to your promised land. No one is stopping you. Leave the US to us who truley believe in freedom.


I have already addressed this point heavily in the thread earlier and I do not feel like typing another history lesson for those ignorant of the facts. The only reason you have "freedom" in this "free-market" is because the Government you so hate is keeping the corporate wolves at bay.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 96
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:04:16 PM
If you understand this, you will understand why we hate the slippery slope of socialism. I didn't like Bush either, Obama is a nightmare. The fundamental changes tho our country started in the early 1900s by the progressive movement, seems they are raising their head again.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 97
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:11:02 PM

If you understand this, you will understand why we hate the slippery slope of socialism. I didn't like Bush either, Obama is a nightmare. The fundamental changes tho our country started in the early 1900s by the progressive movement, seems they are raising their head again.


Same question I asked another poster: Do you drive on public roads? Have you ever contacted the police for anything? Do you have a fire department? Any bridges where you live? Know anyone on Medicare? Know anyone on Medicaid?

If the answer is yes to any of those questions, then you don't really hate socialism, do you.
What you hate is Orwell's 1984.


...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

The 'governed' includes those of us who believe that every citizen of the United States should have decent health care--not just those who oppose it.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:26:52 PM

If you weren't so caught up in blind patriotism, you'd realize that the U.S hasn't accomplished anything even close to what those other countries have.


I never knew ancient Rome was part of Canada, Western Europe, or Australia, which were the places mentioned in the post I was responding to. But you seem to know a great deal that I, blinded by patriotism, can't see. Must be your superior schools in Canada. I'd return your gratuitous insult of my country, but some things speak for themselves.

And you also seem to know all about me, though I can't imagine how. Could it be that you just resent the U.S. and Americans in general? It sure sounds like it. You haven't one scintilla of evidence that I'm "caught up in fear of the unknown," or that I "have an odd propensity to automatically be fearful of ANYTHING that challenges" my "narrow, egocentric view of the world." People who know me know better. As for resorting to name-calling when someone dared express a view you don't like, it's you who chose to do that.

If the rest of the world hates my country--as you evidently do--because it regards us as stupid and arrogant, I couldn't care less. Get over it. You weren't attacked by Islamist Nazis--we were. Did you imagine we Americans were so stupid we'd just sit there apologizing for making the G--d----- swine angry? That sounds more like something people like you might do.

Maybe you can find the video where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of 9/11, hacks off poor Daniel Perl's head while he screams--for the crime of being a Jew. I called them Nazis, and I meant it. I can't say here what I think of people who willingly serve as apologists for them.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 99
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:50:07 PM
will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;

This is about the federal government, no there should be no medicaid, medicare, or any other federal program that is not explicitly spelled out by the Constitution. Imagine if all the wasted federal tax money was kept local, since all these services are provided at a the county level anyway. Then it would be the local populaces choices as to what services to provide to who, as long they do not violate the Constitution.

We get back 33cents out of every dollar we send to Washington, how about Washington get the 33 cents and we keep the rest at the local level.

Do we really trust the same government that has bankrupted Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to get his one right?

Do we need all these agencies.

http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 100
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:07:52 PM
The 'governed' includes those of us who believe that every citizen of the United States should have decent health care--not just those who oppose it.


That doesn't give anyone the right to ignore the Constitution. I'd like to know where it authorizes anything of this kind. It does not, except for people who think it's just a set of guidelines--a sort of list of suggestions about what government should, or may, do. That's a contradiction in terms, though--constitutions of any kind are meant to be more or less permanent, and therefore hard to change. And the rule of law's on firmer ground when they're kept that way.

But most statists don't want to bother with amending the Constitution, which is the only way it authorizes to change it. They'd rather just make it mean whatever they want it to, to have a "liberal" Supreme Court interpret it in ways that authorize a truly national government to run most of our lives. But all the facts indicate that's the very opposite of the kind of federal government the Constitution was intended to create. So what?

Do you think people would be so willing to bend the Constitution to authorize any centralized national programs they favor, if some day a law were to take away their right to speak freely, or to have a jury trial; or authorized police to search their houses without either good cause or a warrant? If that ever happened, I'm certain everyone who wants a "living Constitution"--one that can be twisted to authorize any government social program they'd like--would be loudly demanding to have a court interpret the threatened individual right *very* literally, and uphold it to the letter.
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 101
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:58:54 PM
I am not ignoring the Constitution, and neither am I ignoring the fact that we have millions of people who are either under-insured, or not insured at all.

I am not talking about changing the Constitution--where that came from, I have no clue.

And, actually, the Constitution is often referred to as a 'living' document. I'm sure that giving every citizen of the United States health insurance would be 'twisting' the Constitution, to some. To me, it supports the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--more easily attainable when one doesn't have to worry about paying for health care at the expense of that life.
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 102
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:28:46 AM

But we are the Land of the People... We control our leaders.... Not the other way around.... at least this is how it is suppose to be

The problem is is isn't the way it is. Nor is it "the other way around". It's the large corporations that control the leaders. The politicians are there to do their bidding.
Lazzie-faire was pushed heavily by Reagan...touted by some as "Reaganomics"...but in reality he copied Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics theory's....which were used by (forced on, really) Chile and Indonesia (just 2 examples...several others too)...and who did they end up with? Pinochet and Suharto.
Unfettered free market capitalism is as much a pipe dream as is total control socialism....greedy people get in the way and the vast majority loose.

If the health insurance industry can afford to spend $1.4 million a day fighting against change, what does that say to their priorities? Where did that money come from?
YOU....they rake in the premiums when you're healthy, but when 65 hits...oops...sorry...the gov will take care of you now.

10 to 1 says they'll be asking for a bailout in the not to distant future.

Privatize the profits...socialize the losses...
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 103
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:40:24 AM

We are capable people that don't need the nanny state making decisions for us.

Other than roads, bridges, traffic signs, school curriculum, police, firefighters, etc, what other "nanny state" rules would you like to do away with?
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 104
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 7:54:22 AM

Why isnt a collective of people governing better than giving all the power to corporations and to individual enterprise (ie. market domination)? Why is that word, socialism, so profane to Americans?


To begin, I'm not a collective, I AM an individual. I was born with NO silver spoon in my mouth. In fact, I've worked since I was 14 yrs of age. I have never looked at something that someone else has and thought.....how lucky they are. I think...how hard they must have WORKED.
Having always EARNED a paycheck, as opposed to being "granted" a government stipend, I VALUE the toil and sacrifice that I make for each dollar that I EARN. I also accept the responsibility for what businesses I support with MY money. I have "boycotted" stores, restaurants, and other businesses for issues ranging from discriminatory hiring, to inefficient service, corrupt management, etc.

Most people make the mistake of assuming that because a rich "socialist" is a socialist that he/she really cares about the disadvantaged. WRONG! They don't. It's just the drum they bang on to get richer. You mention Bill Gates, but neglect to mention the Kennedy's???? The fact is, that NEITHER is responsible for the 85 yr old woman having cancer, and also fail to realize that the space program has been the catalyst for numerous "discoveries" that made life better for everyone...including 85 yr old women with cancer.


But those are mostly doctors who want to make more money then the provincial health care plan entitles them too.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM! It's NOT any provincial health care plan which SHOULD dictate what someone is "ENTITLED" to make. People should not be "entitled" to make.....or to NOT make. "Entitlement" shouldn't even come into play. You speak of a "collective of people" deciding what other people "should" be entitled to earn.....but yet...it WAS A COLLECTIVE OF PEOPLE who decided to support the Bernie Madoffs, Hank Paulsons....OMG....the list is endless.

People believe that programs like HUD actually help the "poor"...when they do NOTHING of the sort. What they do, is create MORE poor....while they're creating hundreds of thousands of rich "slum lords".

I'm not ashamed to admit that until a few months ago.....I'd been a registered Republican....for 38 years. It is no small decision I've made that I am going to vote for every socialist program that comes down the pike for the rest of my life. This is NOT an endorsement for "socialism", as indeed....TRUE SOCIALISM does NOT exist. Just as it has become perfectly clear that TRUE CAPITALISM does NOT exist....at least not any longer...not in the good ole U.S. of A. I simply don't believe that 25 years of socialism can hurt this country any worse than the "fake capitalism" we've been operating under for the last 25 years has. And I STILL hate "socialism".

"Social justice" has to start and end with the INDIVIDUAL. Having a "collective of people" does nothing more than give us an endless supply of "OTHERS" to blame. Banks need to fail, companies need to tumble, and insurance companies need to hold mass suicide parties in their corporate offices. Prices and standards of services and goods need to be set by INDIVIDUALS who EARN every dollar they have....not every dollar they they learned to extort from a corrupt system....whether it's outrageous executive bonuses, or outrageous transfer payments (welfare). NEITHER is "earned"....meaning that executives who have been responsible for the bankruptcy of companies didn't "earn" their $25million bonuses....it was "bestowed" on them....just like welfare.

I do intend to vote for whatever health care program Obama comes up with...I don't care what it says in the fine print. It can't be any worse than what we have now.

YOU complain that our "poor little specialists" who save lives makes $200K a year....and yet seem to think NOTHING of the Insurance Co. CEO who makes $22 MILLION a year!!!! And that doesn't even include his perks and bonuses! So, how exactly can you justify a 4 yr MBA earning 100 TIMES more than a cardiologist or even the guy who fixes broken legs?

You THINK that we're going to eliminate those $22 million a year crooks with socialized medicine...but we're NOT....we're simply going to exchange one for another. Let's take the "socialist" program of Fannie Mae for example: CEO was paid (notice I did not say that he EARNED) 1 million in salary, 2.2 million in "incentive pay", 1o million in stocks, and another 153,000K in "miscellaneous expenses". That's 14 Million in pay....FOR LOSING 2.1 BILLION dollars. You THINK there's a difference in todays "socialism vs. capitalism"...but there is NOT. They BOTH stink....they BOTH need to be rammed down the throats of the greedy **stards running the show. But that is NOT going to happen as long as we THINK we have "power" in a "collection of people". It's going to take a bunch of INDIVIDUALS....who INDIVIDUALLY stand up and REFUSE to participate in or support both of these corrupt systems.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 105
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:43:07 AM

The 'governed' includes those of us who believe that every citizen of the United States should have decent health care--not just those who oppose it.


Find me a single poll (with more than a few hundred responders) that shows a majority being in favor of the new health-care bill Obama has proposed then.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 106
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:49:29 AM
To me, it supports the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--more easily attainable when one doesn't have to worry about paying for health care


So who does pay for it?
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 107
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:56:00 AM

So who does pay for it?


The government of course!
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 108
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:46:19 AM
What do propose to do with people who can't afford private or home schooling?
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 109
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:57:47 AM
Ah socialism. I just can't go for something that is so emphatically geared towards hurting those who have succeeded to help those who have not. I just can't do it. Not that I am not for helping others as stated before, but really. Those who like socialist programs I would wager would not take kindly to evening things out. Again I use my busted A/C as an example. I have gotten no PM's from anyone on the forum asking where to send money so as to re-integrate me into the AC equipped society driving around. So I crawled under my car, slashed the A/C belt, and free'ed up a few horsepower and proceeded to go make the owner of a new Camaro SS wonder why his 426hp engine wasn't pulling him ahead of me.

But wait. None of this might have taken place if everyone in society were equal, which is the ultimate goal of socialist ideas. Build up the low, beat down the high. Right now it starts with basics, education, health-care, etc.

Soon it will extend into a little more than basics, such as housing (kinda already there), automobiles (cash for clunkers), and other things.

Then it will go further. Meh. I just don't like. Also, as a rule of thumb, the government can't do anything for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 110
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 11:13:29 AM

you Americans take it to the extreme lol
Talking anout a mixed amrket system, like every western nation.
Not out and out communism.
is it that hard to get? unwrap yourselves form your flags ffs.


I think our country was better off before all these programs came into being, personally. We have already given up so much to them, why give up more?
 JWG86
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 111
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 11:18:36 AM
You cant progress as a modern society without them.
Before the wasps controlled everyrything and got the best of everything. (still do to an extent)
Minorities were exploited.
You need balance.



cheers
F.P.


and we are currently OVER-balanced. I agree that balance is key, but the media has gone out of its way to make sure that will not be achieved.



The average American is so lacking in knowledge of their OWN history that their being "anti-socialist" is hardly surprise.
I'm surprised more aren't "anti-democracy"...
That is...if they even know what the word means....


I am anti-democracy. So is my constitution. You won't find that word anywhere in it. America is not a democracy.
_____________________________________________
Huge +1 to the below. Summed it up better than I have been.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 112
view profile
History
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/29/2009 5:27:22 PM

is it that hard to get? unwrap yourselves form your flags ffs.


You may hope your sarcasm and vulgar abbreviations will hide your anti-American bias and your complete ignorance of the U.S. Constitution--but they do not. If Americans should ever want advice from communists in other countries, they can ask for it.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 113
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/29/2009 11:56:36 PM
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.'

Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant 's house where the news stations film the group singing, 'We shall overcome.' Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

Nancy Pelosi & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 114
Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/30/2009 12:12:04 AM
An economics teacher made a statement that he had never failed a single
student before, but had once failed an entire class.
--------------------------------------------
That class had insisted that President Obama's socialism worked and that no
one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The teacher then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on
Obama's plan".

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so
no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The
students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little
were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had
studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free
ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all
resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone
else.

All failed, to their great surprise, and the teacher told them that
socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the
effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away,
no one will try or want to succeed.

Could not be any simpler than that.
************
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of
misery." --Winston Churchill
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