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Joined: 12/6/2009
Msg: 249
The Game and its effectivenessPage 12 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
*purchasing a book to score pathetic.*

Says the 41 year old on an internet dating site...
Joined: 10/28/2009
Msg: 250
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/13/2009 12:37:51 AM
Darn, I just lost the game.

(For those who don't know the game, the concept of the game is to not think of the game. There goes my 2 month streak.)
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 252
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/13/2009 9:57:15 AM
^^BS. If someone wants to do something badly enough, they will accomplish it no matter what's in their way. It's usually the people who don't want to make the effort to try that claim that it's impossible. If you THINK you can't, you're probably right - it's all about the mindset.

NO ONE is born with "game" - it comes from the environments they are in and as they get older, the ones they choose to frequent. It comes from experience and learning what works for you by having the cajones to do it until you figure it out, even if it means you fail at first.

If you can't handle failing, you'll never become good at anything - how do you think you learn what to do? Usually by learning what not to do. Duh!
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 254
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/13/2009 10:57:29 AM

People who don't like to approach can't always deal with the SAME situation from the other end as easily - and frankly, if you really expect everyone you like to like you back, you're probably better off not dating at all.

Yep. They don't like to approach because they know what it's like to have someone they're not attracted to come up to them... it's a combination of awkward annoyance, pity, and thinking less of them. Hence, when he is blown off/rejected in the standard way, he'll see himself as the fat chick who's gone up to him in the past, and thus, avoid going up to women in general.

If you base worth or acceptance on outside approval, it's real hard to like yourself UNLESS others like (or approve of as it were) you, and you'll never be able to truly appreciate that you can be fine in life while people aren't dating you.

For all practical purposes I very much agree. However, I will say that a form of outside "approval" is a necessity to some degree. I would call it outside "verification" on the basics of things to make sure one doesn't have egg on their face. Totally ignoring what others think is as dangerous as relying 100% on others approval. I see the "outside" as a way to check oneself of errors... more of a tool to see if something's really awry. If NOBODY is interested in you, I think it's good that your worth is low. But yes, to rely on a wide majority having to be interested in you to have worth -- that's silly.

You think life without a mate is somehow less of a life, and spend all your time without a date waiting for when it happens so you can finally start living...

I agree, but many people *NEED* to be with someone to consider themselves a worthy person. They see being single as life itself rejecting them if single for too long... and when they are single, they feel like they're on a road trip without a cell phone. And they don't have to be the classical clingy type, either -- it's how they were raised, thus how they see life.


The Game is something you have to be born with, I don't think it is something you can learn or improve, not everything in life is based on practice, it's not like learning to ride a bike, it's more than that.

Yes, it's more than learning to ride a bike, which is why I TOTALLY disagree with you on everything else, and it's why it's not something mostly genetic!

I think that people are genetically set with tendencies, that all other things being equal, will be more or less better at a general "game" than others... or better put, social skills/shyness/outgoingness, etc.

Not everything's based on practices in life, true... BUT when we talk about social interaction -- yes, it's pretty much based on practice & learning. Your point of view is NOT genetic. You may genetically have a bigger tendency to have a downer outlook, not-my-fault mentality, or lower self-esteem, which has helped steer you to where you are now. But other people who tend to be more like that DON'T end up steering where you are now, because of how their lives unfolded.
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 256
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/13/2009 6:36:46 PM

You are the most persistent negative person I've have ever met. However, even your rhetoric is beginning to improve. Now you accept some things as facts, but you have not learned your part yet. And all the b itching in the world is not going to change that reality. So is either you remains without a date, or you figure out that YOU have to PURSUE. You, not them. Why. Women are attracted to the guys who pursue.

And pursuing is something innate to any human that produces testosterone and has a pair of cojones. If you keep ignoring them, then you will never know that they were always there to be yours.
Joined: 10/17/2008
Msg: 257
view profile
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/14/2009 12:17:18 PM

The Game is something you have to be born with, I don't think it is something you can learn or improve, not everything in life is based on practice, it's not like learning to ride a bike, it's more than that.


How can you possibly thing that game is something you must be born with when the entire point of the dammed book is that the bald man didn't have game and leanered it from the tall funny hat guy?

What is game? To me, it's nothing more than the confidence and self-esteem to go and talk to an attractive women like she is a normal person. That's hardly something present from birth.

So, if you wish to refute me, please inform me what you envision game to be that it is inherently unlearnable?
Joined: 10/28/2009
Msg: 259
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/14/2009 4:40:00 PM
Ok I took the time to read this thread now, so I'll give my input.

I read the book 'The Game' last year. It was recommended to me by a friend who used some of the techniques from the book. I should mention that the book is not a guide on how to pick up women, the author was writing about the lifestyle and it's more like a journal. He recites the techniques as he's done them or other people such as his mentors have taught him how to do them, so with that being said, I'd recommend it myself. You'll get a pretty in depth inside look on the pick-up artist lifestyle.

Now, onto NLP, that's something I cannot explain. I saw this video a couple of months ago, as well as a couple of other videos this guy has done (apparently he's pretty famous in the UK), anyhow... check it out for yourself:

What I liked about reading 'The Game' is it helped me work on my inner game, that being my self esteem and confidence. These tricks can be really effective, and everyone in the book seems to have their own theories as to what works and what doesn't. Now, personally, I've never really tried them on a stranger, so I wouldn't know the full extent of its effectiveness, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they did. I've only used some of these stuff to help me in my occupation, and sometimes relationships (but not in a manipulative way).

Those who've read to the end of the book will find out that not all of the 'techniques' work. I won't spoil. Read it, I highly recommend it. I liked the ending.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 261
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/17/2009 11:30:03 PM
Drusurfer (with hidden identity),

So is it Nature and Biology as to why it is always up to us guys to do the pursuing and chasing?

No, not in the sense that genetics make hair a certain color, and then men chasing women. It's not like that at all. It's more like the basic, default persona of males that gears them MORE toward hunting/persuing, etc. But we're also versatile beings and are products of our upbringing & environment, too. We fall back on our primitiveness when we're in survival mode or have little culture, etc.

Essentially, genetics has steered it in that direction... and older culture has emphasized it... and I think there will ALWAYS be that within a civilized culture to some extent, at least.

But you don't have to look at pursuing & chasing as games... nor should you have to chase & pursue much at all. Only the desperate do that anyway. But I think you see being the one to approach a woman as painful as it'd be in a desperate chase lol That's something you have to man-up about. You think it's a bigger deal than what it really is.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 265
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/18/2009 4:16:36 PM

Good post. I think many women critical of literature teaching guys how to be better at picking up women are caught in a catch 22, and at the same time, automatically assume, with their ears plugged, that it's about how to use/manipulate women for pure sex to move onto the next or something close to that. It's really sad they're so closed minded.

I think their catch-22 is that on one hand, they don't want a guy to be too effective and in "game mode", because they'll see him like...:

he has nothing to loose ...if he has no fear of rejection she is just another piece of tail

And then on the other hand, for the timid guy, he's harmless, a safe engagement, and it's cute and great to be the only thing on his mind...
nervous men fear rejection and value that woman's attention and affection
BUT, in the end, he's WORSE than even a player version of a guy who's effective in game-mode, as he can't risk losing a rare opportunity and....
will hold no opinion of his own and will instead make a chameleon like attempt to transform himself into his perception of her ideal man

What many women critical of things should try to understand is that most "nice" guys who get few opportunities are VERY likely to be the fake ones, once given a feasible opportunity of a gal a bit outside his league.... it's NOT the guy who's -truly- effective at what he does, or a guy who goes along the same lines as the guy who is. An effective guy doesn't have to be fake, that's not what it's about.

That's not to say all "nice guys who can't get a date" are fake. But it's an illusion that they're more real, just like all guys who work well with women and give out pointers are man-whores.

I think it boils down to the fact that women DON'T want guys to think of a woman as a statistic/object in the beginning... and they don't like hearing things phrased about "picking up women". However, women must respect the cultural fact that most women expect to be approached.

And there's nothing wrong with a gal being an object/statistic. In the beginning. Because they don't know you and you don't know them. It's impersonal if you brush him off. Much like you sending in an app to place for a job and get brushed off... it was just a building. It's not UNTIL you have something going with him, that he will see you as more than just a statistic. But until then, in order to not care about rejection, the person doing the rejecting, yes, is just an object/statistic/noun.
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 267
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/21/2009 6:57:19 PM

The guy that can talk freely and boldly with a sense of nothing to lose welcomes that same affection but does not require it to feel comfortable. Because he has a strong sense of self. He knows that regardless of whether or not she takes an interest in him, he'll be fine.

Bingo, And why is this so hard for many guys to understand?
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 270
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/22/2009 5:04:22 PM

Neil Strauss is definitely a scumbag player (check torrent sites for "The Annihilation Method" for sad interviews with women he has played)

Well I think any guy who's dated a lot of women, player or not, is going to have many women saying bad sh!t about him. Make him famous, and you could make a DVD out of it.

And from observing everyone's experiences (including my own, too), many women (and guys) will think the other person's a slut, player, b!tch or b$stard if they had their hopes up about someone and they walked in another direction. And that's going to happen to just about anyone who has had any significant dating experience -- and there will be many if they've had a lot.

That's not to say he hasn't hurt girls' feelings and shares responsibility or has made mistakes. What guy or girl hasn't? Just saying, it's easy to exaggerate it all.

But the book is great when it comes down to looking at life through a positive, realistic lens.... and the attitude to carry that can get you further in life, not just with girls.
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 275
view profile
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/30/2009 11:59:30 AM
I learn that there's this underground/online community devoted to teaching guys to score with hot chicks.

It's not exactly "underground" -- roissy's blog posts get >500 responses/comments within a day or two in some instances, which beats even the occasional firestorm thread here at POF. I'm not sure where this ranks at wordpress, but let's just say you need to pack a lunch if you get there late and are going to go through the whole discussion. And he's entirely non-commercial so far as I've seen; in fact, he heavily criticizes some of what he thinks are just scam artists and bilkers jumping on the PUA bandwagon caused by the several best-sellers and TV shows on the subject.
 jeff farish
Joined: 12/27/2009
Msg: 277
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/30/2009 11:54:53 PM
Sometimes I think women like games even thought they say they don't because it's kinda like a fantasy - drama soap opera thing that turns them on , kinda like romance novels and day time soap opera t.v. : I know I'll probably get some hate mail because of this statement but I really believe that it's their natural make up to feel this way . now just for the record and to help clear my name , I want to go on the record to say that All women aren't that WAY >>>>>> And if your wondering about me ? Well ! I DON"T PLAY ANY SORT OF GAMES !!! I'am a real polite easy going nice guy that treat women the same way that I want to be treated , and that 's with honesty !!! Have a nice day !~ Hope I din't offend anyone ? Jeff
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 278
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/31/2009 12:58:48 AM

kept hearing the same BS so upon further inquiry I learn that there's this underground/online community devoted to teaching guys to score with hot chicks. i read the book and I don't doubt that the guys in the book did what they claim, what I doubt is that it can really be taught and learned by ANYONE.

True, but what skill/understanding can? When it comes to approaching women, your grandmother can give you advice on what "women really want", and so can the player next door, so can a mainstream self help book, and so can a book like The Game (which is more mainstream than one would believe; and isn't an instruction manual, either but an autobiography).

Point is, people judge those books based on how others react to them. You see a group of barely 21 year old dudes going on about the stuff, you see how they act and can easily think "thats what those book say". No. Now, some are over-the-top, sure (which IS better than being timid and shy and doing NOTHING, btw)... but girls don't care if it is or not. When she sees a guy go from "I want to be sweet and nice and buy a gal dinner" to "Girls actually want a guy who isn't going to outwardly chase her, feel free to razz her if need be, and put the ball in her court", they don't want that. They like their comfort zone and don't know it's as easy as pie where they are, and damn if some book is going to influence guys to take that way way from them... in their eyes, it mine as well be a book on how to be fake -- because they hate it the same, either way!

Overall, huge misconception. Tools will take such literature sparsely and extract "tricks" from it, which, no won't work, and many gals will think that's what those books are about, because it motivates guys to go out there to pick up chicks and to be physical (which guys AND girls want; no harm). What it's really about is a very simple concept. Girls like guys who have things going for themselves, and aren't unconfident. It's about improving yourself -- and when you are truly confident about yourself (you do have to earn it if you haven't done so), you'll be able to pick up women more effectively, because it starts with you seeing yourself as a worthy commodity (and how to be one).
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 280
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/31/2009 12:50:30 PM

The book "the Game" was all about learning to appeal to every girl out there

I wouldn't say that. It wasn't an instruction manual, but an autobiography which referenced the basics, yes. It was about a shy/timid/low-esteem guy's eyes opening up. And like a girl who lost 100 pounds, such a guy is going to (and probably should) revel in the newfound attraction coming their way by the opposite sex before settling into a relationship. That's exactly what happened with him, and his book alludes to getting a little too caught up into it, and how he settled down with a girl in the end.

It also promoted having ten girlfriends at once and getting them all to be okay with that....WHAT?

Not ten girlfriends, but not having a girlfriend, but being able to have FWB or hook-up pals. And guess what? It was telling them and being honest in the beginning. It wasn't promoting that you SHOULD go down that route -- that was his story. And given his background beforehand, kudos to him. Like someone recently divorced, it may be the best option to have "casual relationships" for a while. You may not like that, that's fine.

I don't want to attract all the fact I want to repel most of them...I want to attract JUST the one(s) who I like and who like me for me..

The book isn't about attracting all women, from pigs to models lol. I think what you want is what everyone would like. Now, I would disagree on "repel" if that means being an a$$ to them, because some girls have cool, cute friends who you may desire, and it's best to be friendly to everyone.

I want to be with someone I can be my self around...and want her to be herself around me and me like it!

Yeah, that's what the author ended up wanting, and he got. He was himself around girls he was just casually seeing, that's the whole point. In order to be yourself and be a commodity, you need to change yourself. And in the end, yeah, obviously the dating-spree stuff wasn't so new to him anymore and had his fill, and he wanted this one gal where he had a lot more of that, and ended up with her. It PROMOTES THAT. :)

'm not going to learn stupid magic tricks or wear attention getting "peac@ck gear"

Actually, the author points out that peac@ck gear is best suited for some people and not others, and he didn't delve into that (he pointed out Mystery's thing about that). Also, magic tricks -- they're not magic tricks to hypnotize a lady into liking you. It's just an avenue of breaking the ice. What's wrong with that? It's the same thing as telling a joke, or going up to two ladies and throwing out a question like "Me and my buddy were debating about this in reference to someone we know -- if you ended up moving in with a guy, and he still had pictures of him and his ex, should you ask him to throw them out?" Stuff like that.

The woman that I want wouldn't fall for that crap!

Falling for what?! Falling for an ice breaker? A girl's at a singles bar EXPECTING guys to come up to them and break the ice and start conversation. There's no trickery as far as that's concerned. They're strategies to break the ice -- and yes, if they're scripted lines or taken from a popular TV show in reference on how to pick up a girl, yeah, that should turn a girl off if she recognizes it -- don't get me wrong! That means little originality! But that's the whole point -- being original, fun, and breaking the ice in a way other than "Hey, how you doin?"

I understand why it gets on your nerves, though. Why do guys have to go out of their way to be "original" and strategize to even get an attention-grabbing conversation going and be attractive and all that? Well to some guys it IS that easy in a very natural way. And those guys have a high success rate. The world WOULD be easier if women (from sophisticated down to bar rat) responded the same way to a naturally charming, interesting guy vs a standard Joe who said the same thing as standard Bob.


How strange, that's what we want too. How is it that there is such a disconnect then? And we get accused of being shallow because of it. We aren't as complicated as you seem to think we are.

I think the disconnect is due to human psychology & culture, as well as the fact that guys approach girls, girls expect that for the most part, and girls accept or deny guys. They're in completely different boats, but if culture was that girls went up to guys just as much as guys went up to girls, there would be less of a disconnect.

A nice looking Jane is only in the same dating-scene boat as a guy, when he's at least mildly famous.
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 281
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 12/31/2009 1:03:21 PM

but any decent sales course/book can teach that.

This is probably one of the best advice there is. Actually, the problem I see with many guys is that they are too shy, or they just are petrified to approaching, and they just stand there "being themselves" holding a drink. So I think it's important that men read everything that is out there and decide for themselves what material will work best for them and what will not.

Going back to sales training. Usually you follow individual steps from breaking the ice to closing, and following up. The same thing applies to approaching women. In addition, when you are in sales training you learn to overcome objections. You learn to ask for the order, you even learn reverse selling, where you pull the product away and make the person want it. All this applies.

The one problem I do find with the Game and other books like that is that they seem interested in approaching only one type of woman, while in the real world, not only there are other types of women that would never go to a club, or respond to that type of antics, thus requiring a little more sophistication in approach.

Also I agree with that line about the Chef from South Park. The best thing to do, is go out with a group of friends that include hot chicks. And hot chicks attract other hot chicks.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 283
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/1/2010 9:56:54 PM

What does this mean? It's not women that are complicated, it's dating! How do we know who is in our boat?

What throwit2me said. Guys and girls are in different boats, due to the roles they play in the dating scene. Girls get guys coming up to them, guys have to go up to girls. For a guy to be in that same boat, he'd have to be mildly famous to be in the same boat as a nice looking Jane, that's all. The situation could be called complex, but it has nothing to do with women being complicated. Any complications is a people thing.


I suppose if I look at it objectively I DO some of the same things as they did in the's just that I didn't have to come up with's just who I am.

Exactly! Say a timid/shy/low-esteem guy pulls you aside and says "Hey, what should I do to increase my luck with women?" and you find out "Be yourself" doesn't work with him, because who he is doesn't work out for himself... if you broke it down, it wouldn't be too far off from the basics of that literature, to be honest. There is literature that goes a little bit out there, but just talking about basics. I think the "weirdness" would be you having to tell someone to do that -- it'd sound fake, because that's not who they'd be (nor understand) initially.

it said to attract all women in the group...overall the book suggests to only go after the hottest and chip away at their insecurities...I can't do that...and honestly don't want the hottest girl

You don't have to go after the hottest one. You might, you might not. You can't say you never want the hottest one out of a group of girls. The hottest one could be the coolest, most datable one, right? And it's about charming the whole group, because many women will be protective of their friends or jealous. Same with guys in a group, too. They'll definitely not some dude coming up to their crowd with girls... but if he's cool and you mingle with him, too, it's all good. Basically, you take off the "defense shields". People do this naturally, too, and it's good advice. But it doesn't make it unethical by any means to pre-meditatively scheme on how to do it when they don't fully understand why it's a good thing to do in the first place.

And as far as insecurities are concerned, it's the general insecurities of people, but more notably in women. They tend to be more jealous of their peers when it comes to guys... and guys who focus on their friends when talking to a group will draw more interest in them to you. It's just how it is, statistically. You can ignore it, but it's the same with many of the gals you've approached and talked to. It doesn't mean girls who have special issues or anything -- it's just an awareness of human nature, and suggesting that you start conversation with their 6/10 looking friend, when she's the 8/10. Not only do gain the acceptance of her, who's probably not gleeful that her 8/10 friend gets more attention at bars and doesn't like guys just coming up to her, but also, that 8/10 who usually gets attention from every guy is thinking "Hmmm, this doesn't happen very often." It's just awareness of putting your foot forward and why/how it works. It just sounds like manipulation, like anything else referring to human psychology, when you plot it all out in detail.

I think the ATTITUDE of the books is what turns people off, and the fact that it talks about hooking up with many women as if it's a good thing, that get people ticked (even if it's not about tricking them into anything at all).
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 285
view profile
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/2/2010 1:23:25 AM
Just to introduce a little reality into the mix...

George Sodini Was Not A Pickup Artist -

George Sodini ... was at an R. Don Steele seminar for “picking up women” called “The Right Attitude Workshop“. I put “picking up women” in quotes because R. Don Steele is widely held to be something of a buffoon in the pickup community.

R. Don is the “PUA” that older guys with little knowledge of real game turn to, lured by his cheesy marketing claiming success at teaching older men how to pick up younger women. Ross Jeffries, a pioneer of game based on “neurolinguistic programming” [NLP], used to have it out with Steele on usenet back in the day. The end result of their spastic internet bickering was to make both men look like tools (Jeffries should have maintained more state control) and to serve as evidence that Steele is a poseur out of step with mainstream seduction science. That Sodini went to a Steele workshop for help in picking up women shows that Sodini was unaware of Steele’s poor reputation and the legitimate (and more effective) alternatives in the seduction community that were available to him. Whatever Sodini learned at Steele’s workshop, it wasn’t anything that would have helped him get laid or given him the tools to gradually shed his crippling betatude.

I stand by my claim that learning real game, not the breathlessly marketed cheeseball “techniques” for picking up younger women that one would find at a Steele workshop, would have helped Sodini find a woman who would love him, and thus avert the killings that he felt compelled by his demons to carry out.

Remember, feminism came first. The PUA's and all the rest followed in response, as male behavior is the result of mating experiments run by women. Could one safely say feminism created PUA's and "the seduction community"?

Reminds me of the old Chinese saying... “The criminal commits the crime; society creates the criminal.”

PUA-ism will only go away when a better alternative is offered up, by women and by society in general. Rrecent social science research has found that giving rewards has far more impact on behavior than giving punishments (or calling people names), which soon lose their effect altogether. You'd think this would be so obvious that no research would be needed to demonstrate it, but I suppose the general idea is simply lost on some, and so it needs to be repeated until everyone gets the memo.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 286
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/2/2010 9:19:35 AM

It also contains a lot of tactics to lower the self esteem... knock women down so they can begin to grind through their defenses

Ahhh, good point that I didn't touch on. Razzing a girl who gets non-stop attention, compliments, and free drinks from guys. I agree knocking a woman would possibly be going too far, but that would only work with someone who had issues; you'd be matching issue for issue. But there is a difference, and I agree that it may not be wise to "be a jerk" to "get the girl who likes jerks". However, friendly razzing, a different thing and the mainstream, is saying "Hey, I don't worship you and not trying to compliment you non-stop to get in your pants, and I'm not eager to 'get you'".

IMO, going out of your way to buy a woman drinks and feed her compliments is not a "real" way to do it, but for some reason -- people are cool with that. Kind of odd. The reason that traditional method doesn't work for guys, and SOME literature goes out of its way to promote the polar opposite, is because many good-looking women get that all the time and are fed that non-stop when in social situations.

Remember George Sodini... yeah, he was deep into this PUA stuff and the main reason he went crazy and shot those women and men was not because he couldnt get a woman ie. his own age, his own attractiveness level

So there are morons out there. You're saying he was a normal guy in which PUA stuff MADE him be like that? Encouraged, yes. Made him? No. And yeah, PUA forums are over the top, and extends way out there. "The Game"? That isn't a huge extension of PUA material, it's more mainstream. But whether someone goes nuts about the fact that he can't get a girl, EVEN WITH PUA material, is meaningless.

You've done it yourself... 6/10... 8/10. WOMEN ARE NOT PRODUCTS like cars that you give a rating to.

Hot or Not. The site. Guys and girls are rated like that. Yep. Some people are better looking than others. I could have said "the real cute one" vs "the not so cute one". Like it or not, we find some cute, some hot, some ugly, and some not so cute. Nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean they're mere objects.
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 289
view profile
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/2/2010 4:51:10 PM

All we can do as PUAs (pick-up artists) is hope to interact with one of these women that have been hurt by a guy that doesn't share in our creed, and show her that there ARE still good guys out there.

Eeew... sure there are plenty of hurt women walking around out there who haven't heeled yet, but it's better to avoid interacting with them altogether, as trying to rescue damsels in distress and the walking wounded who were autonomous agents in choosing to be with the guy who hurt them is a fool's errand very typical of non-alphas, since it expresses neediness for female validation of his nice-guyness, which she's not likely to even recognize in the first place.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 292
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/3/2010 3:52:31 PM

Firstly, I didn't say PUA created misogyny or anything like that, I am aware it fully existed before all that.

I never implied that you said that it created anything like that either. I'm saying the PUA didn't cause him to be like that.

read some of the stuff, and tell me there are some sick mofos on there who honestly brag about committing statutory rape...

There are. Guilt by association? Nice stereotyping. Yes, I have checked out the forums on many sites, and yes, some people are out there. Some sick people are out there in religious circles to convert people, but that doesn't mean evangelism itself leads people to be sick-minded like some of them (for the record, I'm not a religious guy).

The things these guys give each other hi5s for is really perverse and twisted

I don't think you like people giving high-fives for getting a girl's number. Or using strategies to get a girl's number. Or getting a kiss. Or more. Using a strategy to garner a woman's interest, and high-fiving when success comes your way doesn't mean you're misleading or were using anyone. You can point to crazy people who bleed into the fringes who use it for evil, but a school of thought is not defined by the fringe that may have delved into it.

"YOU DESERVE TO DATE MODELS" when in fact, no one is entitled to anything like that.

Well some people do deserve to date models, but I won't get into that. "You deserve to date models" is motivational-speaker talk, which I definitely agree has it cons. It's the same as "You deserve better" or "You deserve the best" that high-on-life folks in forums will spout, and self-help books will... I argue against that kind of talk to an average Joe, however, motivational-speaker-talk being exaggerated is set to counteract exaggerated low self-esteems to bolster someone up. It's effective in the beginning to get someone off their feet of depression, but dangerous to live by to such a high degree (realism has to set in once you have your feet on the ground).

So when you mix sick ****s with self entitlements you get wackos like Sodini.

Totally exaggerated statement. Wackos like Sodini would have been wacked out regardless. When you mix a free online dating site with tips on how to get someone to go out with you, do you get wackos who stalk women? When you mix cheap beer and cute women together in the same place, does that MAKE date rapists? No.

Are you really trying to bolster your argument with a stupid, juvenile site like Hot or Not? Wow. Just wow.

Actually, no. Not the site itself -- the act of rating looks, which can be found on here. Is POF a juvenile site because it has looks-ratings? Way to avoid the point. Point again is, rating someone's profile, personality, or looks doesn't mean they are merely an object. It's the people who have low-self esteem hate looks-rating and call it out to be something bad.

One of the creeds that is spread around the community is "Always leave her better than you found her." I try and follow this to the letter, as well as a lot of the other members of the community. There are ones that don't, and these are the ones you only hear about.

Very good point. There are people who use PUA literature, or may contribute to it, that are off the deep end. And there are varying views, too. But it's not about treating women like sh!t, which is something man-haters refuse to understand. I think it's because any pre-meditated strategy to garner a woman's interest is going to imply to them that they're tricking them into something they don't want.
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 296
view profile
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/3/2010 8:42:23 PM
All else aside,for the individual, it's the fulfillment, not the effectiveness, that defines the success, dontcha think?
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 297
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 1/3/2010 10:13:22 PM

Sure, you're are all knights in shining armor... none of you have used your newfound skills to f*ck and chuck/pump n' dump and bragged about it. I don't believe that for a second!

Actually, even if I make out with a girl and ended up brushing her off, I feel bad about it (even though there was nothing done 'wrong' necessarily). A "hit and ditch"? No. Not something to brag about. Feeling a sense of accomplishment on that is horrible.

The thing about Niceguy/AFCs is that.... most of them aren't that nice. Yes, you heard me. They are just unsuccessful jerks.

Disagree with ya there. Some may end up not being that nice after they let a gal walk all over them, or just being an idiot out of frustration when the umpteenth gal wasn't interested after being nice. But the label of the Nice Guy/AFC is someone who doesn't succeed with women (which requires the woman to LIKE you, not be tricked into you), and many of them are labeled as the guys who keep thinking that taking "mom's advice" on picking up a gal is what girls really want (hence their confusion due to no results). Many don't envy the classic jerks who get girls. They envy the guys who aren't d-bags who get girls.

There is a lot of objectification and bedpost notch mentality that goes on with such practices.

I agree the attitude is not "kind" and it's self-admitting to that. But it's not about degrading women, either, and that's not it's message. It is about getting laid/getting a girl to genuinely LIKE you/find a girlfriend/etc, but not about to use and manipulate women.

how to coerce someone into sexual practices they don't want to do, one even said, "get her wasted." Yes, perfect gentlemen.

And some people see it as tricks & gimmicks to get a girl a window of opportunity. But it's not about that either. YES, though, it does branch off into odd-ball areas by some people who take it to a degrading extreme... as with anything about sales. People in a mainstream sales community who go to seminars, web portals, etc., aren't sinister rip-off artists -- BUT you will find many there! Doesn't mean you define it by the shmuck used car salesmen.
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 301
view profile
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 9/19/2010 2:12:38 PM

If you play a "game" and play it well, you might win but, if your objective is to end up with someone you can spend your life with, rather than just hop into bed with, then what did you win in the end? The right to spend your life pretending to be something you are not so the person you tricked into being with you via subterfuge, smoke and mirrors never figures out what a lying sack of crap you are. What a prize that is!

If you read The Game, or any of the other PUA books, they don't say that you shouldn't be yourself. They just give you tips and tricks that aid in playing up your strengths. The Game specifically mentions that the methods used to get a girl are different than the methods used to keep her.

And what if you both read the same book? Power struggle and stalemate I guess.

Good thing most women don't read books on how to pick up women.

If the objective is to end up in bed with as many people as possible I don't think you need a book to figure that one out considering how many people are looking for NSA and FWB situations.

Just because a woman wants one of those relationships, it doesn't mean that she wants it with just anyone. Moreover, some guys are more well off than others in terms of money/social skills/looks/whatever. Having some sort of a gameplan isn't a bad thing. All that "be yourself" type stuff doesn't work for the nerdy guy that is socially retarded and still a virgin in his late 20s.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 303
The Game and its effectiveness
Posted: 9/20/2010 12:30:41 AM
If you read The Game .... they don't say that you shouldn't be yourself. They just give you tips and tricks that aid in playing up your strengths.

Disagree big-time. It's about changing yourself -- not about any tricks. No more 'trickery' than saying hello or to comb your hair if you naturally don't feeling like it -- no manipulation, but just different methods. Since they're different, many can see them as 'tricks'. It's not. It's about changing yourself in how you see yourself and what women end up gravitating toward, despite common barking against it.

The Game specifically mentions that the methods used to get a girl are different than the methods used to keep her.

Yes, very true. Landing a girl's attention is different than maintaining a solid relationship. What a girl is attracted to and ends up gravitating towards is many times different than what she wants in a boyfriend.

f you play a "game" and play it well, you might win but, if your objective is to end up with someone you can spend your life with, rather than just hop into bed with, then what did you win in the end?

Self esteem. You don't hear guys complaining "I can get any hot girl into bed with me and want me, but I can't find a gal who wants an LTR!" -- even among guys looking for an LTR.

It's a guy's choice to just-have-sex-and-only-sex after sweeping a girl off her feet in regards to attraction/attention, or whether to make out and genuinely date her.

A guy who can't even get a gal to dig him is one who lacks self-esteem. The reason why many people who were dumped go out and have a fling or two is because it validates them as being a wanted choice + bringing basic pleasure which always helps too. It's not about avoiding a relationship, even though in the beginning one may not be ready for one until they get grounded in their new awareness and sense of self. A guy can aim his scope at gals who are more likely to be relationship-worthy.

The right to spend your life pretending to be something you are not so the person you tricked into being with you via subterfuge, smoke and mirrors

It's not about that with mainstream PUA. It's actually NOT using smoke and mirrors & trickery. It's about NOT being yourself as an AFC (avg frustrated chump), but to change yourself into what women want, and what's best for you in life in general, even apart from "girls".

People will assume that if any methods are psychological, it's trickery and manipulative. It's not. Wearing a blue shirt because statistically it brings out a higher feeling of trust compared to other colors isn't tricking anyone. Not going ga-ga over a gal you eyed, but instead initially focusing attention on her friends (girls or guys) for conversation in front of her isn't trickery just because psychologically she'll have a higher liklihood of questioning her attraction if she's the gal who usually gets it OR feel more comfortable that he isn't the common guy drooling over her.
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