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 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 36
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What's the reward for Chivalry? Page 2 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
The reward for chivalry?... A thank you and a smile from someone that you care about or even just from another person whether they’re a stranger or not… it’s the feeling that you have inside with knowing that you’ve done something nice for another person with no expectation of tangible reward.

When I cook a meal for a man, the best thank you I can get is a little moan of delight when he tastes the food and seeing the smile on his face. I don’t expect him to throw a parade in exchange… his appreciation is my reward for the effort I put forth.


You'd have better luck pounding sand into glass before I'd ever stoop to treat any woman like anything other than a human being.
Your use of the term stoop implies that you think doing something nice for another person elevates them… and consequentially delegates you into a subservient role.

You’ve completely missed the boat on this one…

Doing something nice for another person in no way detracts from the value of the person performing the action. In fact, it adds to the person’s net worth because it portrays them as someone that has respect for another person and isn’t walking through the world with a chip on his shoulder.

Stooping to open the door for a lady resonates of someone that counts every meager action and then tantrums when he feels he’s given anything more than what he’s getting in return… I don’t know anyone that would wish to be with someone that is so miserly with a simple gesture.
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 38
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 9:32:32 AM

Chivalry is a way of being inside more than just the mere actions outside. So when you know that you are doing the right thing, that you are giving it your best, that is all that matters. But true chivalry is also a test that when the times get tough, and things are at the lowest, you still keep your head high and stick to those values. Again the reward is YOU, not them.

Very well said. And a nice explication of honor.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 42
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What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:13:36 AM
Terms like "Princess" or "Angel" or "Beauty", who are looking for their "prince" or a "Gentleman".
Why exactly would a woman that has a healthy sense of self not want a gentleman? I refuse to be with a man that has anything less than the utmost respect for me and he’d damned well better be a gentleman in my company.

Its not an entitlement issue, it has everything to do with being a self-assured woman and knowing my personal worth in a relationship. As a lady, I fully expect that my significant other would be a gentleman.


Doing something nice for another person in no way detracts from the value of the person performing the action.

I'll disagree to some extent.
It depends. Sometimes they're a doormat. Sometimes they're a masochist. Sometimes they're a manipulator.
I'm cautious about things. I've learned to take most things, when I'm getting to know someone, with a huge grain of salt. I don't rely on what I hear, and only believe half of what I see.
So being a chivalrous gentleman stops at the point that there is nothing tangible to be gained?

When a man acts in a chivalrous nature to a woman that offers absolutely nothing in return, it has me looking even more fondly at them. I’m pretty sure that many women would agree that true chivalry does not demand a return of investment…

Seeing a gentleman offer his seat on the subway to an elderly lady or man makes me smile and causes my heartstrings to twang… That is chivalry. I would move mountains for a man like that whereas I won’t even bother with a man that has exacerbated his worth to the point where he deems only certain people worthy of his attention…
 haywiresue
Joined: 9/27/2006
Msg: 43
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:31:47 AM
OP - in Medievel times a fair damsel (nobility meaning) was considered a prize to be won by knights and noblemen. This is how the line of thinking about gettings something for a certain behavior came about. Not all women were ladies and not all men were gentlemen. During the Gone With The Wind era, it was the same with the affluent. This is not to say that anyone who was not noblity were not ladies/gentlemen.

To me, chivalry is a word and it is intrepreted differently by many people, at times one can believe its a form of being played to get a desired outcome. What should be considered is the true characteristics of a man or woman regarding the respect they show for themselves, people they care about, and how they treat others in the world around them.

I view this totally as a character traits and am looking for a men who is genuinely kind. I treat men with respect and will not allow other to treat me disrespectfuly. I appreciate kind gestures anyone shows to me, I always say Thank You and I try to be kind to those around me. I don't like people who can't look you striaght in the eye when they talk to you, grumble under their breath instead of saying please or thanks, and seem to just not consider others around them. Its more about finding your match and being with someone who makes you feel good when they are around you.

I enjoy showing the man in my life my appreciation when he extends kindness to me. I think its all about meeting the right person halfway and not being afraid to let your personality shine through.
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 44
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:54:36 AM

Chivalry isn't dead, but it's less sincere than it used to be.



That's wonderful!

My father used to say it was in need of life support.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 45
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What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 12:11:08 PM

I hear him saying that he will extend the same courtesies to men and women, but he isn't going to extend a special set of courtesies to women that he doesn't extend to men.
He's taking this one step further than to treat men and women with equal courtesy. He extends his viewpoint to outline that he feels that opening the door for certain woman is actually beneath him as it would portray him to be a weaker or lesser person...

My contention is that chivalry, when it's offered with the expectation of a return on investment, isn't chivalry at all... it's manipulative action.
 CompletelyDone
Joined: 8/12/2007
Msg: 46
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 1:39:21 PM

OP -- The answer is...not a damn thing. If one goes "expecting" anything from the ladies then we're deemed scum and not worth blowing to Hell and back. In their minds we should just be this way and never expect anything in return.

We have a word for that - it's called "doormat".


Oh man BDJ... What kinda wimmenz have you been hanging with???

Every man has the right to EXPECT the courtesy, respect and tenderness he gives out to be returned to him... He has the right to expect his partner to go back to back with him in the world and to be his best friend, lover and companion IF he is willing to be that for her...

The OP is asking about what he should teach his prodigy to expect in return for any kind of chivalry. Many have responded that it's not "chivalry" if he expects to receive anything in return but I disagree. To me, chivalry is the same as courtesy and we are all deserving of the courtesy we show.. to anyone.

The greatest reward of chivalry in my books is the development of one's own convictions toward being a human being of integrity instead of letting the world's recent rudeness and ignorance determine who they are going to be... To have such strength is to me, the "reward".
 oldskool48
Joined: 8/23/2009
Msg: 49
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What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 2:48:35 PM
Nothing. Thats what you tell him.Nothing . He should expect more out of himself.
It is a noble deed.As a young man he should know and practice the ways of a gentleman.I, as a father taught my son ,now 27yo. the importance of a chivalruos respect for the mothers ,wives,sisters and daughters .Women care for men ,no matter when,But only if men act like men will their be a respect that only chivalry can portray.
What kind of man watches his love struggle and doesn't come to her aid.Sorry to say but todays man got a little frightened with the new relationship statis thing. I'm sure the women never said,stop being a man.If you are a man thats it.who ever you are with has to respect that I will open the door for you.I will speak in your defense if need be,with the reespect and understanding that I can never take away her voice.As I respect her as an individual,I will not be told not to or how to be a man.Chivalry included,I'm opening the door because I respect what you can and have given to our human life and without you I would be just an ogre.You should thank god for women everyday and act as such.Anything less would be a shame.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 50
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 4:15:37 PM
Definition for chivalry:


1. the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.
2. the rules and customs of medieval knighthood.
3. the medieval system or institution of knighthood.
4. a group of knights.
5. gallant warriors or gentlemen: fair ladies and noble chivalry.
6. Archaic. a chivalrous act; gallant deed.


and


Word History: The Age of Chivalry was also the age of the horse. Bedecked in elaborate armor and other trappings, horses were certainly well dressed, although they might have wished for lighter loads. That the horse should be featured so prominently during the Age of Chivalry is etymologically appropriate, because chivalry goes back to the Latin word caballus, "horse, especially a riding horse or packhorse." Borrowed from French, as were so many other important words having to do with medieval English culture, the English word chivalry is first recorded in works composed around the beginning of the 14th century and is found in several senses, including "a body of armored mounted warriors serving a lord" and "knighthood as a ceremonially conferred rank in the social system." Our modern sense, "the medieval system of knighthood," could not exist until the passage of several centuries had allowed the perspective for such a conceptualization, with this sense being recorded first in 1765.


dictionary.com

wikipedia adds:
Today, the terms chivalry and chivalrous are used to describe courteous behavior, especially that of men towards women.


In one aspect, until you are a knight, chivalry is a moot point.

In the other, courtesy is courtesy as a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose--why term it anything else? The courtesy of women is no less "chivalrous" than that of men, eh?

As I said earlier and as others have said: expecting a return for being courteous isn't true courtesy. It is an action in anticipation of a reward.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 51
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What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 7:27:56 PM
Aren't you ladies lucky that society has adjusted to expecting little to nothing from you as a ladies, besides keeping your elbows off the table. As a matter of fact, you sort of determine what that word means to suite your own agendas. I pay attention to who does what in the real world. When somebody makes an opening for me to get out in traffic...nine out of ten times, it's a man. When some azz hole cuts me off in traffic....nine out of ten times it's a woman. When the light turns green, who's playing with her hair and lipstick, so ten other cars have to set through a four way light for the second time? Who holds up the whole damn grocery line chit chatting about Edwards soccer team with the cashier? Who waits until her groceries are totaled and bagged before she even starts looking for their credit card or check book. I see men regularly allow women behind them in line with fewer items to get in front of them to check out. When I see the reverse scenario, I watch the woman pretend she doesn't notice the man behind her full basket with just a loaf of bread. Who barges through spring loaded doors and allows it to slam in the face of the person behind them? Who will damage your car in a parking lot and drive off like nothing happened? Who looses control in public with the loud mouth when the bank teller won't cash your out of state check, or the kids get out of line? Who in customer service will refuse to do anything that isn't 100% buy the book to help a customer? Telephone manners....we won't even go into to that. I could stretch this list out for a mile, but I don't thinks it's necessary to make a point. As a general rule ladies....you are rude, inconsiderate, self centered and have little in the way of true manners toward men or even your own gender. Frankly, I think it's hypocracy to the highest order that you bring up chivalry, manners or any social graces until you have your own house in order. Men in general, are ten times as courteous, considerate and mannered than women and have always been. Virtues are always demanded mostly by those who don't have to live up to any themselves. I do open doors for the ladies, but I'm beginning to find it far more rewarding to also close it behind her.
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 52
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/6/2009 8:51:07 PM
Didn't we just finish a gazillion-page chivalry thread a week or so ago ? ;-)

To me it's about living an authentic life. That to me means that I don't want someone to do something for me, because they think they are expected and should. And that's what chivalry is. Things like 'pulling out a chair for a lady', 'walking on the curbside of the sidewalk', 'opening the door, because they're the man and I'm a woman', that is not authentic behavior, but learned, in order to project a certain image.

It presents a 'road map' to men on how to win a lady's heart. Usually men are more linear thinkers than women and following a certain list is a lot easier than watching and listening and finding out what the woman wants. It's not about the person, but about the act.

I believe in The Golden Rule. So, why would I expect someone to do something for me, just because I'm a woman. How can I claim that I'm equal, yet expect unequal behavior. If someone opens the door for me, then I want them to do it, because I'm a person and not because I'm a woman. Just like I will open the door to the person behind me.

I don't think has anything to do with respect. Respect is a personal thing. Chivalry has nothing really to do with the other person, only with the fact that it's a women. I want someone to respect me, because of who I am. I want the respect to have been earned by my behavior and my actions and by MY being me, not by my gender.

I want to be on equal footing with a man, so that I know, if he goes out of his way to do something for me, that it's done because he honestly wants to, not because it's expected. And if he does, then I will acknowledge the fact that he did and let him know that I appreciate it. And by the same token, I like to do things for others, because I want to, not because it's expected. And I hope that in that case the other person will recognize it as well and acknowledge it.

To me, it's about being courteous and considerate of other people and treat them like I want to be treated.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 54
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/7/2009 3:01:05 AM

"Ain't we supposed to be equal?"


Equal doesn't need to mean "the same". Boys aren't the same as girls...obviously. But to answer the question, what's the reward for chivalry? Chivalry is it's own reward. If it's appreciated, that too is a reward.


what does the lady do in return for been shown a lot of "chivalry"? Is it just a thank you?


Simple. She continues to be a lady and, of course, a thank you is in order. Beyond that, hey, it's pretty much up to her. But isn't saying "thank you" just your basic civility working here?


Yes Chivalry is expected of gentlemen. What is expected of the ladies?


To continue to be the wonderful, mysterious creatures you are. And we will continue to throw down our gabardine, , permanent press, built in stretch band belt, non-wrinkle leisure suit if it ever rains.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 55
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/7/2009 6:22:54 AM
I think a lot of the guys here are missing the point about Chivalry. They think it is about opening doors, or behaving like a doormat to a woman. That is not what I would call Chivalry. Instead go back to where Chivalry came from and think. It was a warrior code of ethics. Key word here warrior. Whether in the Romance novels of the Renaissance was turned into some form of romantic love is another thing. But that code was created not for the sake of finding a woman, but for the sake of being a better warrior, a warrior of principle.

Men are still warriors today. It's in our gene pull. Think about the 3,000 years of wars after wars, and who survived them, the people who fought, the people who were stronger. Chivalry will never die, it will always be the belief of the few. On todays world, look at the code of the Martial Arts fighter. Before he goes into battle, he bows to his opponent with respect, then he unleashes his mayhem, to procure a result. Sometimes he gets his as s kicked, sometimes he kicks a ss. The warrior then bows to his enemy, and humbles himself to all that he may need to learn to become better.

This is a code you find as well in endurance sports because ultimately your enemy is your own mind, your own inability to deal with pain, or go that extra mile, or push when everything is going very bad. Yes there's a reward and that is the toughening of the spirit. It is also a Karma, because it goes into the air, into another person, into their thoughts, and then the will pass it on into others.

Chivalry will never die because it was never meant to be for mass consumption. The pretend wanabes are disappointed because they used to hope they get approval from women, to seek validation. Today we go to battle wielding a phone as our weapon, or words, or ideas, or our labor and sweat, but we go to battle never the less. We battle when a significant other loses their job and you have to fend for a family. We go to battle when our people get sick, really sick and we have to nurture broken minds and shattered bodies. Sometimes in that journey, we even lose and lose ourselves, but Chivalry continues. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves to do the right thing, just because it's right. Like the warrior, he must train, he must reaffirm his own convictions and keep doing the right thing.

Regardless of who is watching or a reward.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 57
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What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/7/2009 9:23:53 AM
I don't like the notion of 'chivalry' and have said as much in the recent thread on chivalry. I choose to answer the OP's question from a place of manners. It is a good question for a young person to be asking as he navigates life. We should not do things because they are expected or imposed, we should chose to do things because they are who we say we are.

Expectations: I anticipate people will treat me with respect, good manners and consideration. That is what your nephew ought to expect in return.

Rewards: Respect, consideration and good manners are ways of being a decent human being. It is its own reward to be who you say you are. If you say you are a decent human being - what does being a decent human being look like? Generally behavious that fall under respect, consideration and good manners will be how people will answer this. To be a decent human being means you put this stuff in action in your life. And you do that regardless of how other people are behaving around you.

Consequences: Now consequences is the REAL point here, and is one I feel is being overlooked. The people I choose to spend my time with also demonstrate respect, consideration and good manners. They are decent human beings. If they don't, there is a consequence to their behaviour: I won't spend time with them.

If your nephew alters his perspective slightly from "what do I expect in return" to "this is how I choose who to spend time with" it will be a useful tool for him.
 tnt144
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 60
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/10/2009 12:35:37 AM
What's the reward for Chivalry?

- Respect, from those around you who appreciate it, and there are many. And regarding romantic partnerships, one of the four things needed for a woman to stay in love with you is respect. In fact, love goes up or down in direct proportion to respect.

So, what's so important about the woman being in love? Let me phrase it as a question: would a woman in love want to divorce her husband?

If the woman is a good helpful woman by nature, she can become your best helper/partner.. and will want to help more, the more she respects... and loves you. On th flip side, if the woman is not a giver but a taker... you won't get much for your actions... so, just stick with the nice girls.

With he MTV generation of today, it's easier than ever before to be a gentleman and stand out from the crowd.

Still think it's a bad idea to open doors for women? ... don't let the loneliness door hit you in the butt on the way out! Do you smell what I'm cooking?!
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 61
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/10/2009 9:44:20 PM

Aren't you ladies lucky that society has adjusted to expecting little to nothing from you as a ladies, besides keeping your elbows off the table.


Good golly, Miss Molly, another "gentleman" trashes women by using anecdotal evidence to support his trashing.

Let me cancel out your experiences:

Every time some idiot in a pick-up truck does something to endanger my life on a freeway, cutting me off or riding my ass although I am going the speed limit, it has been a man.

Every time someone zooms through a red light or sneakily follows another car at a four way stop, cutting me out, it has been a man.

The time that I was involved in a traffic accident, it was not my fault and it was a man who hit me--after he went though a stop sign.

Who flirts with the pretty cashier, holding up the line? Not me.

Who allows the guy who has a loaf of bread in the grocery line go before her? Me.

Who doesn't barge though springloaded doors but holds them open for the man behind her? Me.

Who has worked with the public in retail and as a desk clerk and had men be rude to her and others working in the same place? Me. In fact, a drunk man once tried to get me fired.

In my experience as a college teacher, what is the sex of every student who was so rude to me or someone in the class that I asked the dean not to allow that student to re-enter the class? Male.

Telephone manners? We won't even go into that.

Who logged me off a computer in the office at school and then denied that I was even logged on? Yup, a man.

Every time I have witnessed someone smoking in public places where smoking is banned, it has been a man. One even told me that I should start smoking cigars so the smoke and odor wouldn't make me sick.


As a general rule ladies....you are rude, inconsiderate, self centered and have little in the way of true manners toward men or even your own gender. [. . .] Men in general, are ten times as courteous, considerate and mannered than women and have always been.


Then you should stop looking for a woman and become a celibate hermit or a monk--why bother with one-half of the population who is rude, inconsiderate and self-centered?

If ALL men held the opinion of women that you hold of women "in general," I sure the hell would become a nun.

Luckily, most men are not women haters.
 mthomjmark
Joined: 2/27/2008
Msg: 62
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/10/2009 10:10:34 PM
first of all women used to be the better sex but now they are as bad as men. Chivalry is dead and women killed it.

You tell your nephew it's about self pride. You do it because it's the right thing to do. It's classy and it's about carrying oneself with dignity and self respect.

Your nephew to be honest is the classic 20 something; their generation is very spoiled, very self absorbed and selfish and does little for others without getting something in return.

I have a nephew that age and I said you know what you get when you are chivalrish? self respect.

So you are going to tell him, "only be chivalrous if now in return women do something for you?" come on.

You do whats right not to get anything out of it, YOU DO IT BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT. You tell him what I told my nephew. What is expected of women or anyone else? NOTHING; you get NOTHING out of it and they are not REQUIRED to give anything in return.

You cant' control how others act, you can only control yourself. Tell him to man up and that he should expect nothing in return.
 eastendwoman
Joined: 7/15/2006
Msg: 63
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 2:30:25 AM
Actually, being sincerely chivilrous should be a gesture done by a man that does not expect anything in return. You're showing that you can be kind and ask nothing in return. It's sounding like your nephew or maybe even you, are expecting her to what 'put out' because you opened a door? Gimme a break. And that question about' we should be equal'. Well you know that it's women who are trying to be considered equals within a patriarchial society where men are already deemed as superior. By saying 'thank you' a woman acknowledges that you didn't have to be kind, and you were anyway, so she says that to convey her appreciation of your kindness.
 eastendwoman
Joined: 7/15/2006
Msg: 64
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 2:33:09 AM
Women did not kill chivalry, men gave up on it because they didn't want to do it in the first place.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 65
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What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 2:39:09 AM
Gwendolyn2009, Did I give you the impression that I don't care much for American women?....you catch on quick. Since American women have a very poor reputation on a international level....I don't think I'm alone in my thinking. The only men in the world that have any interest in our women is our men....and very few of them are happy with you. It shouldn't matter since 75% of our gals are either gay, bi sexual or bi curious anyway. Hell...they have even written songs about you .."American woman"...stay away from me. I've been in numerous other countries and had to tolorate much joking and criticism about our fine "made in U.S.A." women. Does it matter to our fine ladies that they bring shame on us?....well of course not....you're not exactly one of our national treasures anymore. The last time I was over seas, some of the men wanted to know if our women have legally forced their way into the mens restrooms yet?....I said no, but I do expect to have them peeing beside of me any day now. Face it, you've got more choices, privileges, freedoms than any humans on earth, and you are still full of stinking attitude. One the other hand, American men are highly desirable to women on a international level.....wonder why that is? Take a look at your own profile for Gods sake. Does " Taking applications for someone to kiss your royal derriere".. sound familiar? At least our girls aren't ashamed to tell you what they expect. There are thousands of American men seeking foreign mail order brides in spite of the millions of single women here. How many of you American ladies are seeking foreign husbands?....and why not? Are there any women here that would make a good wife?....sure, there are a few....but with only one lifetime to find one, it's easier to take a trip to Russia, Asia or remain celibate. Do I feel the urge to throw my coat in a mud puddle for you to walk on?.....why should I?.....you wouldn't be happy unless I was in it.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 66
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 5:29:00 AM

Since American women have a very poor reputation on a international level....I don't think I'm alone in my thinking.


Again, you offer your opinion and anecdotal evidence which I can refute with other anecdotal evidence. If I (representative of US women) am so hated, then why have foreign men I have met in real life been interested in me? I discount foreign men online because they are looking for a way into the much hated US--go figure.


It shouldn't matter since 75% of our gals are either gay, bi sexual or bi curious anyway.


Where do you get these stats? From a fortune cookie?


Hell...they have even written songs about you .."American woman"...stay away from me.


And they wrote a book about you: it is called The Ugly American. They made a movie of it--I think it starred Marlon Brando.


One the other hand, American men are highly desirable to women on a international level.....wonder why that is?


Do the words "green" and "money" give you a clue?


Take a look at your own profile for Gods sake. Does " Taking applications for someone to kiss your royal derriere".. sound familiar?


Yup, it does, and men who understand humor contact me on a consistent basis, finding that statement amusing. Humorless men don't get it. You are in the latter category.

And strangely enough, I get quite a few emails from American men in a week. Again, if I (as a representative of US women) am so undesirable, why would men contact me at all? A smart mouthed American woman--go figure.


There are thousands of American men seeking foreign mail order brides in spite of the millions of single women here. How many of you American ladies are seeking foreign husbands?....and why not?


Because weak willed men feel emasculated by women who DO speak their minds. They prefer women to be submissive and to kow-tow to them. (And not all foreign women are like this; I know some of those strong willed women in real life.) Luckily, not all US men are like that, and those are the men whom I seek to meet. Listen, dude, if you want a mail-order bride, why would that be any skin off my royal derriere?


Are there any women here that would make a good wife?


Actually, I was a great wife for 25 years, and I ended the marriage. Now, I don't seek to be a wife: I seek companionship and sex on a regular, long term basis. Many women, and men, feel the same as I do.


Do I feel the urge to throw my coat in a mud puddle for you to walk on?.....why should I?.....you wouldn't be happy unless I was in it.


Why would I need or want you to throw your coat in a mud puddle for me to walk on? I can put on my high heeled boots and walk through the puddle, or I can walk around it. Maybe I will even take my shoes off and splash through it. If a man wants to hold my hand to steady me while I walk, I will gratefully accept his help (that's a metaphor, figure it out).

And may I remind you, the best known instance of "coat throwing" was for Queen Elizabeth I, a strong willed leader of a nation who never married and ran England more successfully than most kings. She did not marry, in part, because she refused to be submissive to a man who would be king and therefore, be "higher" than she.

If you feel so misogynistic about American woman and their lack of appreciation for you, then get that foreign woman! I don't understand why you are on a dating site, though, you should be perusing catalogs.

In MY anecdotal experience, I have met many men who admire, respect, and prefer smart women who are not submissive. Many, many men prefer a woman who walks alongside them, not behind.

People tend to see what they want to see: you want to see US women in a certain light. Your dislike of your countrywomen is based on your experience with a few bad apples; too bad you allow your misogyny taint your vision of the whole apple cart.

I certainly won't allow you to taint my vision of men. I am smarter and more savvy than that--and more mature.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 67
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 6:06:07 AM
^^^^^

By the way, my reference to the book/movie The Ugly American is not an insult to the way anyone looks. The book concerns itself with the selfish, manipulative, egotistic attitude of SOME American men in foreign countries who are willing to get what they want at any cost.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 69
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 10:15:04 AM
You're confusing chivalry with civility.

It's a fine line, but I believe men WANT chivalry to be dead. And they should--they were being taken advantage of. Do you recall such chivalrous acts as Sir Walter Raleigh taking off his cape and putting it in the puddle so the Queen wouldnt' sully her feet? The Queen doesn't thank ANYONE, she EXPECTS that sort of thing. (BTW--he got the credit, but who do you think REALLY washed his cape? Some indentured scullery maid that he probably sexually abused as well) Fact is, you cannot be "chivalrous" toward someone of your own class--only someone who is "above" yours. Since we presumably live in a classless society, it's dead.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 70
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 11:58:16 AM

first of all women used to be the better sex but now they are as bad as men. Chivalry is dead and women killed it.



Women did not kill chivalry, men gave up on it because they didn't want to do it in the first place.


Neither is true.

Get real people: don't deal in absolutes. Things are rarely so black and white.
 BACHELOR02
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 71
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History
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/11/2009 12:43:15 PM
You can feign chivalry, but you can not feign being a gentleman or a lady. Both have codes of conduct they must follow, if chivalry is to survive. Chivalrous gestures are just that, if a man and a woman do not treat each other with mutual admiration and respect in all aspects of a relationship. The young man's question was well founded. However, there are no tangible rewards for chivalry, except for being knighted.
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