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 Ima P Ness
Joined: 9/9/2009
Msg: 73
What's the reward for Chivalry? Page 3 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)

I don't care which planet you live on, but I live on earth. Last time I looked, I still see women doing everything!!! Cooking, grocery shopping, working full-time, laundry, vacumning, cleaning/ dusting, going to the gym (gotta Look good for him), social (Emily Post) stuff and yardwork.
If he cannot show some chivalry spontaniously to show her that he has care, kindness and respect for her, I'd say she has every excuse to walk.


It is statements like the one above that get me riled up. Talk about generalizing and projecting...

I know a large number of men that do all of the above AND take care of the children full time. No wonder people are confused, as we can't decide which rediculous stereotype we are supposed to fall under.

I don't give a ratz arse about reciprosity... I open doors for "ladies" because I think it is the gentlemans way.... I have taught my son this "tradition" and I have taught my daughter to make sure she displays manners when receiving any act of "chivalwhateveryouwannacallitnowadays"...

We should just do nice things because they have a ripple effect. Why do we feel everything has to change? What's wrong with continuing traditons?
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 74
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:34:36 AM

Women did not kill chivalry, men gave up on it because they didn't want to do it in the first place.


This is not true. As much as I hate to bat against the home team, I have encountered far too many gentlemen with beautiful manners that enjoy treating a woman like a lady.

I said it before and I'll say it again, men enjoy treating women well, as long as the women acknowledge and appreciate it. In my view chivalry is reciprocal and you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, because you are a good person and that should be it's own reward. That also means if someone is being chivalrous towards you, you should be chivalrous back by APPRECIATING THEIR EFFORTS, because that is also the right thing to do. However, if someone is chivalrous repeatedly and those actions are not appreciated and it becomes a situation of 'being taken advantage of" the chivalrous one may want to step back from the situation because at that point, it becomes a matter of self-respect.


You just perfectly described why I started my adult life being a chivalrous, idealistic, sweet natured man... and why now I don't give a crap anymore.

lol

I will go out of my way to accomodate a lady.... but ladies are getting rare these days. Posession of a vagina does not make a woman a lady, and does not instantly make her worthy of my respect.

-8sf8
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 75
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:46:52 AM
^^^ The world is a colder, more selfish, less friendly place now.

It is what it is. I prefer to live in reality.

I saw a girl knife another girl a few years ago. Women scare me more than men these days.
 head.cloud123
Joined: 5/29/2009
Msg: 77
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/19/2009 10:54:36 AM

WARNING THIS ANSWER IS NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT!
Wow, how does one answer this question. Is everything we do now a days tied to what's in it for me?

My man is not the greatest for being chivalrous. He has been out of the loop in dating so long it is not second nature for him to open a car door, or even hold a door when we go out. I appreciate it when he does. Habits are learned and I give him positive reinforcement. He is however always polite and respectful, and when I am around him I feel safe and protected. I love the common courtesies of chivalry to be shown to me.

Unfortunately, many men are out of the habit because we women have demanded our equality. In spite of wanting equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunities in jobs and other facets of life, I am a woman, revel in being female, and want my man to revel in being male. I like being treated like a woman, and that means having things done for me that he would not naturally do for another man.

What does he get for treating me like a lady? He gets my devotion. He gets to know that I feel like a woman around him, a damsel who needs him to be her knight. I feel comfortable in his arms, and content. I look at him with the kind fantasy thinking that if there were dragons in this day and age, he would slay them for me. In my eyes that makes him kind of wonderful.

So to answer your question, in my mind, chivalry is expected of a gentleman, and in return he gets adoration from the lady.


You could have wrote nothing and saved everyone a lot of reading.
 head.cloud123
Joined: 5/29/2009
Msg: 78
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/19/2009 10:56:17 AM


In the modern world that could be helping a woman fight cancer, siting with her in the bathroom floor while she cries her guts out and you tell her that is going to be alright. Then the ravaging hordes of Chemo completely obliterate her even more and more and you keep trying.


You are right. Only men would do this. Many women dump their husbands if he gets sick and loses his job.
 head.cloud123
Joined: 5/29/2009
Msg: 79
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/19/2009 11:13:20 AM
Women did not kill chivalry, men gave up on it because they didn't want to do it in the first place.


True. So why don't women just give up and forget about it?

It was wrong in the first place. And most men are happy it is gone.



You're confusing chivalry with civility.

It's a fine line, but I believe men WANT chivalry to be dead. And they should--they were being taken advantage of. Do you recall such chivalrous acts as Sir Walter Raleigh taking off his cape and putting it in the puddle so the Queen wouldnt' sully her feet? The Queen doesn't thank ANYONE, she EXPECTS that sort of thing. (BTW--he got the credit, but who do you think REALLY washed his cape? Some indentured scullery maid that he probably sexually abused as well) Fact is, you cannot be "chivalrous" toward someone of your own class--only someone who is "above" yours. Since we presumably live in a classless society, it's dead.


True. And where did men get the money to pay for women in the old days? Apparently that money was stolen from peasants.

 La Gioconda
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 80
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/19/2009 9:15:51 PM

So the question is, in a relationship, what does the lady do in return for been shown a lot of "chivalry"? Is it just a thank you?


a bottle of your favourite booze, and some coupons for free shopping at your favourite grocery store. I hope you are satisfied.


In these days of non-gender specific roles, I am finding it hard to point to anything.


North America is really lost and there is not hope in understanding 'chivalry'. It's dead, especially if you gentleman expect something in return. It must be worth it, huh? Nothings is free.

re: your quote however, referring to 'non-gender' roles....in romance, you are still a man, and she is still a woman....so go figure.

Emancipation of woman, brought freedom to us, so we have our own money in the bank account, and know what to do if we need to do oil change, but in romance we are still woman. This is very hard to understand, I know.
 rosesinsnow
Joined: 6/20/2009
Msg: 81
view profile
History
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/19/2009 10:18:41 PM
I don't think it matters whether you call it chivalry or something else. Tell your nephew there IS a reward for doing something special for a women, but he may not receive a reward at the time he opens that door or performs another act of 'chivalry'. In fact, when he receives his reward, he may not even know it was a result of doing such things.

Woman, however, remember such kindnesses and it affects the way they will look upon him forever. Other men or women who witness that act will note it too. It might have a positive effect in his job when it comes time for a promotion because someone notices he treats women with respect. It might have a positive effect on a relationship because women are proud to be in the company of men who treat people like they are special. It might increase the number of people who call him 'friend' because they see him as someone who cares about others. You never know when or how that reward with come, but it will be there. Trust me.
 Minau
Joined: 9/2/2007
Msg: 82
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/19/2009 10:49:22 PM
He gains her respect...not to mention admiration
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 83
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/20/2009 3:11:55 AM

..OK now lets keep this civil...!


You throw raw meat to pond of pahrana and expect civility? Here?


.you catch on quick. Since American women have a very poor reputation on a international level....I don't think I'm alone in my thinking.


No you're not alone. There are misogynists all over the place. That alone proves nothing. Jeffrey Daumer wasn't alone either.


and very few of them are happy with you.


And they've told you this? Then, as an alternative, you might consider some form of farm animal. Very low upkeep. They'll never ask you for alimony. They don't snore (or if they do you'll most likely never hear them).


There are thousands of American men seeking foreign mail order brides in spite of the millions of single women here.


I think most of the guys who do that just can't seem to get laid here. I wonder why. Well, not really.


Are there any women here that would make a good wife?.


For you, my friend? Not very likely. But hey. A nice asian wife would suit you. They're very quiet. Very respectful. Very clean. Very smart. They take their wifely duties seriously. They'll even walk ten paces behind you. But in the final analysis, a****r spaniel would be much cheaper and you could train it to most of the same things.


Yes he was WRONG for not giving it up VOLUNTARILY, but trying to force, or scold him to do it didn't achieve the aim either. Two wrongs doesn't make a right!


Someone far more profound than I said "everything after the word "BUT" is bullshit". It obviously is because it instantaneously negates that which preceded it.

You acknowledge the fact that seeking something in it in return (I have a vision of a badass Italian "family kid" asking the question "hey pops, so, this chivalry thing heah, so, uh, what's in it fo me"? Sorry, that's the image that came to mind.

You seem to have only two possible learning methods in your toolbox - forcing someone and scolding someone. You really need to improve your teaching skills. There ARE better more effective ways.


You could have wrote nothing and saved everyone a lot of reading.


And you, sadly, could have learned something, but you didn't. By the way, it's "WRITTEN" and not "WROTE". Past tense.


Let the chilverous one's know they really aren't dead....


We're alive and well my dear :)


why do women not extend chivalry to men?


Possibly because you bill yourself as a 38 year old male secret agent from Plano Texas. Hard to say.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 84
view profile
History
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 9/20/2009 2:39:18 PM
I looked to see if you ever got around to how you are defining Chivalry. The word itself refers to certain behaviors a knight should aspire to, but it has come to have many other connotations since.
You seem to be referring to various actions that a male USED to be encouraged to do to demonstrate that he is a nice guy, such as holding a door open for a female. Since that one in particular was tied to the cultural assumption that women are weaker than men, by the fact that men were NOT supposed to hold the door open for other men, it has been justifiably been called into question.
When my children have asked me what reward they should expect for behaving with respect and care for others, I've always told them that they should behave well because it is the best way to make their world as good as possible. In other words, one could look upon good behavior as a purely logical, even selfish set of actions.
The very good reason to DISCOURAGE people from expecting something in return for their 'chivalry,' is that this often leads people to believe they can OBLIGATE others to them against their will. Some guys, for example, think they should be able to force a woman to speak to them, to thank them for opening a door, when the woman never asked them to do it. It's dangerous to teach that you are allowed to force someone into a social contract against their will. Hence, I teach and live by that no thanks are required; I do what I do for others to fulfill my own beliefs, not because I think I can "buy" approval from others by doing so.
 Inego Montoya
Joined: 9/9/2009
Msg: 85
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 10/10/2009 1:47:30 AM
In response to chiviliry? That they will dump you for the first jerk that treats them like garbage
 makeba
Joined: 9/28/2009
Msg: 87
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 8:56:46 AM

~~~Can't people just do nice things for each other without expecting something in return?? Chivalry was originally a way for gentlemen to show respect and appreciation for ladies, not something done with an eye towards what it might "earn" him.
Doing something without an expectation of a reward is called Charity or volunteering not chivalry. If one "expects" something (chivalrous behaviour) from you (or of you) , then naturally you will be right in "expecting" a recriporal gesture/action/reaction from what was expected of you.

Gone are the days when we women were expected to (and actually) lived a life subservient to males. During those times, it was a norm to show such "respect and appreciation" for us - after we solely did the cooking and cleaning and taking care of the men, babies, etc etc. But these days, we are fully equal in all aspects to men and enjoy the same freedoms and liberties as them. Cooking and cleaning and many more are no longer seen as a gender-based tasks. Hence we as women lost that right to "special respect and appreciation" chivalrous actions rewarded. So in my view, chivalry, if it still exist, shouldn't be "gender" based but rather should be expected of both men and women.

I don't expect the man to drive to my place, wait for me to get ready (God knows I take a bit long), OPEN/CLOSE the car door (plus other doors), etc for me to get in and out, dine and wine me and foot all the bill, drive me home, repeat same opening and closing door proceedures, etc etc etc - all in the name of chivalry. God knows I must be bonkers if I fault such a guy for expecting something more than a "Thank You". If the tables are turned, how many of us women will put up with this servitude - all in the name of being "lady"!
 Chitownguy40
Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 91
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 10:00:48 AM
Chivalry is nonsese. Tell your nephew to for get about chivalry. What he needs to do is treat people with respect. And that is an obligation. It is not soemthing he should expect to be rewarded for.
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 94
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 10:50:46 AM
Chivalry is only a name for that general spirit or state of mind which disposes men and/or women to heroic actions, and keeps them conversant with all that is beautiful and sublime in the intellectual and moral world.

Chivalry was derived from the French language and the Institution of Knighthood. Typically, nothing was expected in return for an act of chivalry, but acts of chivalry were honored by the Kings/Queens in power at that time.

Joan of Arc, a peasant girl born in eastern France, she led the French army to several important victories during the Hundred Years' War, claiming divine guidance, and was indirectly responsible for the coronation of Charles VII. She was captured by the Burgundians, sold to the English, tried by an ecclesiastical court, and burned at the stake when she was nineteen years old. Twenty-four years later, on the initiative of Charles VII, who could not afford being seen as having been brought to power with the aid of a condemned heretic, Pope Callixtus III reviewed the decision of the ecclesiastical court, found her innocent, and declared her a martyr.
 peppermint petunias
Joined: 9/2/2009
Msg: 95
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 10:53:48 AM

You don't be a gentleman because of any sort of reward. You do it because it's what you are.

*I* open doors, pull out chairs, and help a lady put her coat on because I like to see the smile that you get. It makes me feel good. That's the benefit.

But I wouldn't say no to brownies... or maybe a smooch. Everybody loves brownies... and smooches.


I love to make brownies and they are pretty darn good.

I do not believe we do good to get something back. It looses the real purpose of doing good.

I don't like people that donate to charity and expect a plaque either.You do it because it is right.
 startle
Joined: 7/22/2008
Msg: 96
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 11:04:13 AM
chivalry is a ploy to win a woman's heart...it might work and it might not but if you think a woman is worth pursuing you might as well try it...money and gifts work as well or better...just saying " look what i got...did ya ever see anything that fine before...do you want it"...probably not going to work.....
 milt_n_bradley
Joined: 10/14/2009
Msg: 98
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 11:54:49 AM
"Chivalry" is a misinterpretation of now extinct belief set that had little to do w/ what most people today believe it does.
Look it up on Google.
If by "chivalry" women mean common courtesy...then "Thank You" should be its only reward.
 m14shooter
Joined: 10/2/2009
Msg: 99
view profile
History
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:00:52 PM
There is no reward for it and sometimes it gets you a evil glare like when I hold the door open for a woman so I pretty much never do it anymore unless it is for a little old lady or a date.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 100
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:29:04 PM
Gawd, this is a mess, brownies, experiences of rudeness, tit-for-tat, who should, who does, who doesn't......some group!!

Chivalry is dead. As a concept, it was for a different time, women acted in certain ways and so did men or knights. Remember not all men were chilvalrous in that time, those that were among the nobility did, the peasants did not.

Manners and civilty is not dead. I could go on for half a page like another poster, recounting my negative experiences with women. Those on cells phones or with kids especially, why bother?

In todays society, we should have respect for our selves and others. I hold doors open for both men and women when I reach the door first. I am polite and let others enter the elavator first. When in NY, I would give my seat on the subway or bus to older or pregnant women, same with an older man who was infirm. So what? Doesn't make me a better human being, just a civil one. Yeah like one poster said, I've gotten a disgusted look from women when I did hold the door, but not lately, that was back closer to the women's movement.

The only problem, I have, is 40%(no scientific study here) of the women I hold the door for, don't even acknowledge it. They are with another woman talking, and breeze on through the doorway, without even a smile, as though it was expected. Then we're waiting for the elavator, and a guy cuts them off getting on, and NOW they react, with disapproving looks, and the sound of loud sighs and tsk tsk tsk.

This is entitlement, and a sh1tload of women have it. You do for me, but I'm so good I don't even have to acknowledge the courtesy. So think on that for a while before you slam the guys. Remember while you may say 'thank you' or smile, 4 out of 10 women don't, and that's what makes men think 'why bother'.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 101
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:42:30 PM
The term chivalry belongs in the same era as a "handsome woman". Being courteous and polite shouldn't be relegated to any one gender and that's really all the term stands for in this day and age. I'm betting a few guys who make a show of pulling chairs out, opening doors and paying for a meal or coffee might be some of the same few who, when they get behind the wheel of a car, will cut all and sundry off, give others the finger, etc. and as has been stated above in a post or two or three, there are women who expect certain treatment strictly because of their gender but have absolutely no couth when politeness is afforded them. In a lot of ways, we've become an impolite society and expect too much from other people without putting enough expectations on ourselves to behave in a decent manner, no matter who it is you're relating to.
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 102
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:44:39 PM

Remember while you may say 'thank you' or smile, 4 out of 10 women don't, and that's what makes men think 'why bother'.


Some men I've dated told me of those same experiences with women and I really could not understand why women would be so rude as to not acknowledge men for holding a door open. Gawd, a simple "Thank You" shouldn't ruffle anyone's feathers. It's a very simple courtesy to show appreciation for a thoughtful and kind gesture.
 Angel__Wings
Joined: 7/25/2009
Msg: 104
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 12:56:40 PM
I should so not be living in today's world. I am really starting to believe I do not belong in this era LOL

I so want the true gentleman someone who shows me he appreciates me. I would return 10 fold for just one guy who holds open a door, helps me with my coat, pulls out my chair oh wow if only my real type existed in reality. I would be one happy woman. All I seem to meet are guys who decided woman no longer like that kind of thing or very bitter men who really have a bad image in their mind about woman. Dating in 2009 kind of like being caught in a very bad episode of Seinfeld.

I have to admit I have seen where a man opens a door for a woman and they get nadda back but to be honest I have not seen it that often like 4 out of 10 times but could see it in some geographical areas.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 105
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 1:09:58 PM
Here's someone else's thoughts on some of the standard "chivalry" that I pulled from a website when I was looking up the origins of why men (or women) feel it necessary that a chair be pulled out for women. I tend to agree with the writer:




1. Ordering my meal for me. This has always struck me as bizarro, because chances are you don’t know what I want. The only time this is cool is if I have no idea how to pronounce something and you do.
2. Letting me win at a game of Scrabble/pool/bowling when you are clearly better. No fun! Please give it your best shot. I want the satisfaction of really beating you.
3. Using a code term for going to the bathroom. Especially retro words like “tinkle.” You can just say, “I’ll be back in a minute.” I’ll get it.
4. Pulling out my chair. Someone told me this tradition started when women wore loads of crinolines and, thus, scooting in your chair was difficult. That’s no longer the case. It just makes me nervous that you won’t push it in at the right moment and I’ll land on the ground with a thud.
5. Carrying my purse. Yeah, it’s heavy, but I’m pretty used to it at this point. You carrying it just looks funny. I have enough of a hard time with murses (man purses).
6. Asking my dad for my hand in marriage. So outdated. Pops just shouldn’t be involved in our relationship. No one should know you want to marry them before they do.
7. If you’re paying for dinner, not letting me put in for tip. Or get a round of drinks after. If I offer, it’s because I want to. I swear.
8. Helping me put me coat on. This is sweet, but it’s always awkward because my hand misses the sleeve or gets stuck somewhere in there. It’s easier to just do it on my own.


My own:
9. Opening a car door for me. With today's technology and the light weight of doors, it's not a huge inconvenience for me unless my arms are full of packages. Nothing is worse than a guy having a remote that unlocks his car door, you're in the pouring rain, but he takes more time making a show of opening that darned car door while you stand there starting to look more like a drowned rat.



Edit: chamelonf, I use excuse myself to wash my hands.

One would hope you wouldn't be fibbing, given the circumstances for leaving the table....
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 106
What's the reward for Chivalry?
Posted: 12/9/2009 1:16:10 PM
Angelwings, geographical areas aside. I agree different era's, different things.

This 4 out of 10 phenom, I mention, has really only happened in the last 10 or 12 years. Before that, the balance was as it should be. Men held doors, women said thank you.

As to the coat thing, chair thing, and those other little gestures, some women appreciate. They exist, they exist in the men who were taught them as a part of the way they grew up or adjusted to life. When you meet a guy like that, don't be afraid to let him know you appreciate it. That should be returned by him, for you going through the efforts you did, to look great on the date, and for the pleasure of your company.

Sorry, can't help you, don't know where they are. I'm one, but so what, it's in my nature and habits, engrained from early in my life. It's important to me, I don't care what others think or do.

VVV Sorry Razzle, you can barely get people to call 911, much less save someone's life. Apologizes to you and the other poster, but self centeredness and self preservation has long made these unfashionable for many.

Edit: chamelonf, I use excuse myself to wash my hands.
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