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 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 51
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Debunking creationist mythsPage 3 of 24    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24)
whats that got to do with evolution?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 52
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 7:50:27 PM
there is a bit of subjective evidence, that for some reason, many concur that it proves evolution.
I personally am boggled by people believing something like evolution, with out understanding 10% of it.

the more I read about, it the more it sounds like a bill of goods.
makes no sense whatsoever, to me.

there must be a huge incentive to believe a ridiculuse thing like it all happened with aimless RANDOM mutations.
all simply made believable by survival of the fittest.
and well it happened!
and bacteria adapt, well isn't that good! could they possibly have been designed that way?

evolution doesn't work for me and a few others.

AND learned people have been wrong before.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 53
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 8:25:53 PM
aremeself...

Unless and until you can bring the alleged 'designer' to the table, we are forced to rely on what we can see and measure.

The more I read about calculus, the more IT sounds like bunk. The mere fact that I don't understand something, however, does not make it wrong.

Yes, learned people have been wrong before - but you also have to keep in mind Clarkes' Third Law...

"When an elderly and distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is quite probably right. When the same scientist says that something is IMPOSSIBLE - he is almost certainly wrong."

And before you say that it works both ways - I'm quite open to entertaining the idea of life arising by design... but to date, I haven't seen anything that will convince me that was the way it happened. The arguments for evolution - from the fossil record to DNA commonalities, however, *is* convincing.
 mleffers
Joined: 8/25/2009
Msg: 54
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 8:52:52 PM
uhhh.... all of them.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 55
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 9:05:42 PM
In my mind, from the reading, there is very little evidence, which can also be taken different ways.
most have no idea of how small the amount of bone fragments that these awsome conclutions are drawn from.

And a lot of it is biased.

It also, to me, doesn't make any sense.

I do trust my judgment in a lot of things.
I rarely say, well, he said, or she said..........

In the end, I have to go with what I think.

didn't think I had to try to convince anyone.


A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

everyone is on their own, on this, and many other decisions in life.

If evolution makes sense to you, well, your easyer than me.

Like I said, the more I read, the more preposterous evolution looks.

And bring a designer to the table, how?? Is that some kind of impossible rule made up by humans to make to make a snide point?
If you can't see it in the complexity of creation, you never will, sorry, thats all we got.

On that note, show me how we came from that chimp thing with RANDOM GOOD mutations, not going to happen.

the discretionary evidence that evolution has going for it, takes a lot faith to believe.

 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 56
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Posted: 9/17/2009 9:31:18 PM
then prove it, my friend, it can't be done, not even reasonably.

see, thats where you always go with it, not going to work with this guy.

all you have to do is prove it!

actually you don't have to, and you can't.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 57
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Posted: 9/17/2009 9:48:09 PM
no, you just can't prove it, thats all.

you have no proof, no one has, or we would all see it, plain as day, its not rocket science.

your not offensive in the least, just don't see why it would be so hard to prove, thats partly my point.

I've been guided to many posts, I do read them.

Its all conjecture and faith.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 58
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 9:49:13 PM
The THEORY of evolution is NOT a "fact"!

It is and always will be a theory. That is, it is the best available explanation for observed facts.

Evolution is a fact.
Natural selection is a fact.
The "theory of evolution" is little more than this:
Natural selection guides [or "directs" or "drives"] evolution.

The two facts are observed. The cause-effect relationship is observed. When it cannot be directly observed, the observed facts STILL accord with the theory.

What is ALSO a fact is that this is a thread for the discussion of creationist fallacies, not for yet another redundant evolution-creation debate.

One of those popular fallacies is the argument from personal incredulity. "I can't understand it, so I refuse to believe it. Instead, I'll just believe something which doesn't ask me to understand anything."
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 59
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 10:10:39 PM
I know I am off topic.

but get sick of the evolution is a fact thing.

I have read and comprehended enough to see picture.

complexity has nothing to do with not understanding.

you don't understand the complexity.

there is no guide for evolution.
many things adapt, it was put there, thats not anywhere near enough for the brain alone evolving. you know that!

survival of the fittest gets rid of stuff, doesn't make new stuff, unless evolution is the new creation argument.

If I got anything out of all thereading I have done, the main flow of evolution comes from RANDOM GOOD MUTATIONS, and there isn't enough time in the universe for that to have happened, let alone the mish mash of how life formed, also time wise.

does anyone see the point?

believe what you want!

bye.

if my posts don't make sense, tell me where I am proven wrong.

It doesn't matter how many times it is said that evolution is a fact, it doesn't make it so.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 60
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Posted: 9/17/2009 10:39:15 PM
its a slightly morbid sense of fun, and a good brain exercise.

everyones thoughts are valid here................ I think, on topic, of course!

Ok, on topic:

there is no he[[, as we think of it, after all would your father, who apparently can't love you as much as "god" can, make you stand in the corner for eternity?
just give you enough to keep you alive?

I'm talking about an extremely bad kid.
the worst.
hitler, even!
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 61
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/17/2009 10:48:32 PM
aremeself:

If I could, I'd like to explain how I think what you're saying is incorrect, and how it is a creationist myth that could use debunking.

Evolution is the story of how life, that already exists, adapts to changing environments and develops new ways of thriving. I will not deal with the origin of all life.

First you say mutations must be bad if they're random. No, sometimes rolling the dice gets you a seven. Bacteria show us that random mutations lead them to resistance to drugs we design to kill them.

Now, if you have, say, a primate that walks on all fours, something like a baboon, and you have a whole population of them, then you have thousands and thousands of chances per generation for random mutation. If a small percentage of the population experiences mutation each generation then you have hundreds of new genotypes (collections of the DNA that code for the organism).

Next you get to subtract all the mutations that are detrimental immediately, like thin heart valves. You don't get to subtract the other mutations, like larger canine teeth. Only the genotypes that have mutations that aren't deadly will produce the next generation. Therefore the next generation gets to use all the good mutations, all the indifferent mutations, and does not have to contend with any of the bad mutations. That makes the process of positive adaptation accelerate, see?

If this primate's generation were, say, every 10 years, and it had 5 million years of evolution, that would give it five hundred thousand opportunities for selection of positive random mutations. 500,000 positive changes can do a lot, n'est-ce pas?
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 62
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Posted: 9/17/2009 11:03:43 PM
but get sick of the evolution is a fact thing

You and me both, but it's somewhat better than the even more common and faulty "it's just a theory".

Popular creationist fallacies:

thats not anywhere near enough for the brain alone evolving. you know that!

Appeal to personal incredulity. Appeal to numbers or probability. Two fallacies in one!
Vast arrays of nervous systems exist, and examples of the life forms similar to living types are found throughout the fossil record. If we make the reasonable assumption that the fossils possessed similar nervous systems to their living relatives, then there is actually an extensive fossil record of increasing nervous system complexity. The evidence indicates that both the time and the changes were available, so the above fallacious argument is completely without substance to back it up.

survival of the fittest gets rid of stuff, doesn't make new stuff, unless evolution is the new creation argument.

Yet another myth...
Survival of the fittest gets rid of individuals and species, not "stuff". It also has nothing to do with adding anything, since this is a statement about selection, NOT evolution. It is evolution which encompasses the changes, whether they be additions, deletions, or changes in the details. That's fact. It is selection which determines whether or not those changes survive. All individuals contain heritable changes in their DNA. Selection acts on those which live just as it does on those which do not. Death just happens to be more obvious.

the main flow of evolution comes from RANDOM GOOD MUTATIONS

Not exactly a myth, but lack of adequate information is certainly a hallmark of creationism. Evolution is largely driven by neutral changes, such as gene or chromosome duplication. These duplications not only increase the amount of total DNA, but they reduce the harmful impact of many further mutations. Harmful mutations are mainly due to a failure to function properly, not because of any "kill switch". Having multiple copies of a gene means that altered copies which don't funtion "normally" still have their functions performed by other copies. That allows the flawed copies to lead to novel results.

and there isn't enough time in the universe for that to have happened, let alone the mish mash of how life formed, also time wise.

Two fallacies in one, again: personal incredulity and appeal to numbers/probability. Again, handily refuted. We measure mutation rates. We have a dated and stratified fossil record. Not only do we have a decent idea of how fast genetic changes occur and accumulate, but the timing of the fossil record agrees. Once again, the personal incredulity is naked of any supporting evidence and controverted by multiple lines of evidence.

It doesn't matter how many times it is said that evolution is a fact, it doesn't make it so

Well, the fact of evolution is incontrovertible. Heritable changes happen. Natural selection is incontrovertible - it too is observed directly. As for the theory, we can never observe Bagaceratops giving rise to Pachyrhinosaurus, but there IS a lengthy number of species whose evolution HAS been observed. In ALL cases, not only is evolutionary theory the only available explanation, it is also a perfect fit to the evidence. Neither the facts, nor the theory, have been refuted thus far. They certainly won't be by way a fallacies.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 63
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Posted: 9/17/2009 11:23:45 PM
thanks for you kindness, but 500,ooo gens wouldn't come close to being enough gens to develop the human brain from a chimp type of thing. [read about the human brain, please, if you still say that, I give up]

AND where are all of the LIVING in between things? should be a mess of them!

I am not even defending creation so much as, come on guys, come up with something I can sink my teeth in, evolution, in my mind is laughable, evidence and all.

just like creation is in others minds.

I believe bacteria have been programed to work in different environments then they are always in, because there are untold amounts of uses for them, so they adapt to new situations, which they do.

there is no time for random in the bacteria world, even though they come about rapidly, compared to humans.

all of those "primitives" you are talking about, should they not all be evolving into at least slightly different spieces?

humans, should have right from the start ,been evolving into all kinds of directions.
there's only ONE.

If random mutations can fix up a new spiecies from our preasent complexity, that would have to be demonstated in front of my face, for me to believe that!

thanks for you time, sir.

pick me apart, if you will!
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 64
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/18/2009 12:50:51 AM
aremeself:

I have read about primate brains. I still say that. So you give up?

There's only one kind of human!? You really think that?! Look in a mirror. Now look at my pic. I'm way cuter, no?

PaulK:

I guess I didn't make it clear. If there are 5 things tried, and only that which works gets to be the template for the next five things tried, because the things that don't work die, then all things after it based on the template of what lived will not have the traits of the things that died.

If the cat with whatever size or shape canine teeth (that I just gave as an ex-capita example) gets killed for whatever reason, it dies. If it did not live long enough to have kids, it will not pass on the genes for it's teeth, regardless of their shape.

You have a head that looks like the head in your picture. If that head makes women have sex with you, then future generations heads will be influenced by your genes. If, despite the shape of your head you make good coin, then some women may sleep with you and your head's genes will contribute to the shape of future heads. If no women like you, your genes will not contribute to the future genotype. I don't see how this makes you think intelligence is involved.

That which is sexy (cus it's cute, or rich, or charismatic, or fun, or strong,...) gets laid and has kids. That which does not last long enough, because of its sideways teeth, or that which has a big goofy looking head does not have so many kids. That which has more kids has more influence on future generations - no guidance involved, just luck and death.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 65
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Posted: 9/18/2009 12:55:29 AM
on its OWN, evolution doesn't work. don't need to debunk religion to realize evolution has a lot of explaining to do to people with questions.

If you believe a human brain can develop in a lousy 5oo.ooo generations, no wonder you gobble up ANYTHING they throw at you for evolution.

you can break it down all you want, its still what it is.

we will take forever for us to build a self functioning body, how could it have happened ALL BY ITSELF?

Ok, there are some rules to the universe, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?

I feel like no one is hearing me.

random mutations thrown into a pretty much perfectly functioning brain are eventually going to improve it??????????
mathamatically IMPOSSIBLE! and makes no sense whatsoever!
why and how could anyone ever believe something as far fetched as that?
the brain has 50 billion neurons with a million billion conections, firing at maybe 10 million billion times per second. And it happened all by itself, make that make sense to me.
a few years ago, the best computors had one 10 thousandth the capacity of a house fly.

how can you believe in evolution, because others do??

don't pick on how I think, I think fine, prove me wrong.

AND most people don't know anything about the body or evolution and they believe in evolution, how bazzar.
 vichycycl
Joined: 5/5/2007
Msg: 66
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/18/2009 1:08:55 AM

how can you believe in evolution, because others do??


I've tried to show you how it works and you insult. I showed how beneficial mutations are selected over the deleterious ones and you respond that the choices are random. I said that 500,000 generations of development on an existing brain could improve it a great deal and you intentionally misquote me as saying that the whole thing happened in that time from scratch.

Good luck.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 67
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Posted: 9/18/2009 1:11:21 AM
whats Noah got to do with the theory of evolution??????
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
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Posted: 9/18/2009 1:19:25 AM
vich, bottom line is they are still random.
i never mean to insult, getting impatient, thats all.

And I meant from chimp brain.
we have parts they don't have or hardly have.

AND there seem to be less and less species, not more and more.

yes, one kind of human, I can make a baby with a girl anywhere in the world.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 69
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Posted: 9/18/2009 1:29:56 AM
kreeby, science is going through a bunch of wrongs, to get one right.

some day I'll read all your publications.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 70
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Posted: 9/18/2009 2:35:39 AM
real science and real religion are the same, or at least would not contradict one another, or one, or even both, can be false.

I personally don't agree with most religion, but thats another story, for another time.
I don't care what religion compels people to do if it is false.
It seems to compel a lot of people to a lot of no good!

I am just for now, debunking evolution, on the wrong thread.

correct me if I am wrong, but a good mutation has never been witnessed happening, and there should be tons of them, no?

and why aren't some humans already devloping into something else, to the point of some not being able to breed with others? we have had 5+ million years.

don't tell me they wouldn't be recognizable today!
we can't all be evolving in the same direction.
we don't all interbreed.
I'm sure some lines have been sepatate for millions of years.

I think we are devolving, at least I am.

and where are all the missing in between links, even living ones, there should be tons?
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 71
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/18/2009 5:33:20 AM
aremeself...


And bring a designer to the table, how?? Is that some kind of impossible rule made up by humans to make to make a snide point?
If you can't see it in the complexity of creation, you never will, sorry, thats all we got.


One impossible rule leads to another. You want absolute proof that evolution is what brought us to where we are today, which is *just* as ridiculous as asking for concrete evidence of whatever designer you care to imagine.

Yes, I see complexity in a lot of things... that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to figure out for myself how it GOT that complex. Didn't you ever take things apart as a kid, to see how they worked...? Your initial ideas may be wrong, but that's how we learn and grow.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 72
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/18/2009 6:56:07 AM
What folks like aremeself, et. al. don't seem to realize is that "Intelligent Design" and "Creation" are a cop out. I don't know how it could have happened so God did it. Sound familiar? It should. It's the principle behind "irriducible complexity."

In short, if I can't figure it out now, I can just attribute it to the "creator" and leave it at that. It also leads to misunderstandings about the processes of science, and deprives us of important insights that can lead to very productive and important developments.

It's as anti-science as you can get, quite frankly.

Hey, if you want to believe in God, go ahead. I'm completely agnostic. I haven't ruled out the existence of God, I'm just not prepared to put every interesting and complex thing in His hands. How do you factor in God in physics equations?
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 73
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/18/2009 10:03:42 AM
AND where are all of the LIVING in between things? should be a mess of them!

We are ALL transitional species.. unless you think evolution is referring to the crocoduck. Evolution is not pokemon.


humans, should have right from the start ,been evolving into all kinds of directions.
there's only ONE.

If you discount all the other homo genus and disbelieve they ever existed.. then sure.. like homo erectus. But of course, you don't believe homo erectus ever existed, do you?

I love how a layman, such as yourself, is arguing with a biologist, such as Frogo.
That would be like me telling a mechanic how to do their job.. and then saying that combustion doesn't exist and it's simply a myth. That's basically what you're doing. It's laughable. =)


that's not a cop out, it's a belief.

It IS a cop out. Saying that you dont need to find answers any more because God did it is a cop out. It doesnt answer any questions.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 74
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 9/18/2009 10:54:03 AM


I don't know how it could have happened so God did it.


that's not a cop out, it's a belief. we all have them, it's part of our nature. and one should not be so quick to discount another's beliefs. as for me i prefer to accept what is proven, and consider all possibilities on that which is not.


And this is definitely where our opinions diverge.

Believing in God is fine. A lot of people (including scientists) do. And many scientists will continue on the search for the "whys" of the universe. However, the phrase "iriducible complexity" is the classic "Godidit" and its fault in logic is shown by the number of ways in which it has been proven wrong time and time again.

In other words, if biologists had of relied on "irriducible complexity," they wouldn't have gone further and gained valuable insights into the process. So, if you believe in "God's" hand in nature, you've failed to gain a full appreciation for the creation. And, whether or not the biologist believes in God, saying something can't be reduced further is a failure of science and intellect.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 75
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Posted: 9/18/2009 12:01:05 PM
I keep hearing that creationists don't have anything figured out and won't bother to do so.
really? is that what I sound like?
how about, there is not near enough irrevocable information on evolution for an intelligent lay person to conclude that evolution happened without a reasonable doubt.

argue my points, like we have not witnessed a single good mutation, am I wrong??
I asked to be corrected on that one, not on how I think, unless you think that is doing some good.

all I hear from the evolutionists is hints to my lack of intelligence. ok, they are more than hints! is that stengthening your beliefs some what?

other than that, I am sorry for my ineptitude, your highnesses!

all I am asking for is proof of evolution in your words.
guess for some reason that aint going to happen in my life time.

creation can't be proven, other than the obvious. [look around you man!]
evolution can't be proven [in my mind] its all still conjecture [as far as I can make the evidence out]

I don't say much about god here or anywhere.
why complicate things anymore.
just talking about the sense ,or lack of it, for evolution in this lay persons mind.

thanks for you time.
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