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 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 202
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Debunking creationist mythsPage 9 of 24    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24)
moving goalposts, Verzen

First you claimed they would be laughed out of the scientific world. For believing.

then, after evidence is brought in, you seem to need to say that they would only be laughed out of a certain field or fields, and that only if that field was their own field...

How many times are you going to move that particular set of goalposts ?

so unethical of you.
 milt_n_bradley
Joined: 10/14/2009
Msg: 203
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 4:10:22 AM
@ goalpost DA

A list of intellectually deficient doctors means...?
Creationist myths have no validity because the overwhelming majority of them cannot withstand more than the slightest amounts of scrutiny.
Not falsifiable = Not real
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 204
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 4:14:19 AM
On the face of it you do not undertsand Science, versen.

It would be nuts if a top astrophysicist was laughed out of Science because he believes something not supported; e.g. that large enough doses of vitamin C prevents all cancers.
that's ot the way it's supposed to work at all.
We're not supposed to judge work on other ideas held.
That's the simple, unthinking view: WalMart figgering to brown-wrap a Frank Zappa instrumental album because he's dangerous with words.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 205
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 4:19:48 AM

A list of intellectually deficient doctors means...?
Creationist myths have no validity because the overwhelming majority of them cannot withstand more than the slightest amounts of scrutiny.
Not falsifiable = Not real

Fact or fiction, that believing such, gets you laughed out of the Scientific world ?

Provide an instance where one was laughed out of the scientific world for believing. We're not talking about someone preaching it as science. Just believing it.

Produce the list.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 206
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 7:43:24 AM
Rug doctor. It has always been of the opinion that if you are talking about a certain science that you aren't qualified to talk about then your opinion doesn't matter. An astronomer wont know as much about biology as a biologist. This is a fact. If the astronomer doesnt believe in evolution, then his opinion on evolution doesnt matter because he does not work with evolution ALL day long. This is not setting goal posts. This is you being stupid.

I also understand science better than most. Your opinion i do not understand science is unfounded and it is a baseless claim.

If someone believed in YEC and was still a scientist, he is not only disregarding just one scientific field.. but several scientific fields. He would be laughed at. NO scientist is a YEC as well because to actually believe the world is 6,000 years old is ludicrous.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 207
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Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 7:55:52 AM
Rug doctor. It has always been of the opinion that if you are talking about a certain science that you aren't qualified to talk about then your opinion doesn't matter.
good enough.

An astronomer wont know as much about biology as a biologist. This is a fact. If the astronomer doesnt believe in evolution, then his opinion on evolution doesnt matter because he does not work with evolution ALL day long.
Agreed



This is not setting goal posts. This is you being stupid.
It is not setting goalposts, agreed...but you did set goalposts, though...and in return you were given a list.
your original statement was this.
Any scientist who believes in YEC (Young earth creationism) will be laughed out of the scientific world. They are not only disagreeing with biology, but every scientific field to date.
EVERY FIELD.

now it's changed to "several fields", then... their own field ? ...and then change it perhaps to " if they present a paper " ? is that it ? how many shifts ?






If someone believed in YEC and was still a scientist, he is not only disregarding just one scientific field.. but several scientific fields. He would be laughed at. NO scientist is a YEC as well because to actually believe the world is 6,000 years old is ludicrous.


so a list was presented. You immediately try and set new goalposts.

you could support your own assertion, too, with a list of scientists who have been laughed out of the scientific world merely for believing.
but you don't.

You're not being very truthful here.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 208
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Posted: 11/28/2009 8:09:14 AM
hell, you could even try to establish that those on the list were not believers, that they are not scientists, that they never existed...whatever.

But you shoudn't move your goalposts.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 209
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 8:13:33 AM

now it's changed to "several fields", then... their own field ? ...and then change it perhaps to " if they present a paper " ? is that it ? how many shifts ?

Now you're twisting words around. YEC, where they believe earth is 6,000 years old, goes against every scientific field to date. - Source - Greatest show on Earth by Richard Dawkins.

I am talking about an entirely different subject as well with that line. You can't take two separate thoughts and put them together whenever you want.
You should only focus on biology if you are a biologist. Your opinion on anything else does not matter. A young earth however, goes against EVERY scientific field to date. There is also no scientist to date who believes in YEC. They most likely believe in divine entity driven evolution such as the head of the human genome project.


so a list was presented. You immediately try and set new goalposts.

Wrong. A list was presented. I immediately picked out all the biologists, which was around 1/3rd of the list and put them in their own separate more legit list because biologists are the only people that matter on biological issues.


You're not being very truthful here.

You have yet to prove I am not being truthful.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 210
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Posted: 11/28/2009 8:30:26 AM
your first statement said they would be against every scientific field ever. You said they would be laughed out of the scientific world for believing. ANY scientist.




Any scientist who believes in YEC (Young earth creationism) will be laughed out of the scientific world.



They are not only disagreeing with biology, but every scientific field to date

now you wiggle to escape your own statement.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 211
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 8:33:05 AM
Has anyone taken a choice argument from the provided list of "experts" yet for me to refute?

Whatsamatter?....Chicken?
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 212
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Posted: 11/28/2009 8:34:43 AM
which list of experts ?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 213
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 8:37:42 AM

which list of experts ?

MSG #352
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 214
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Posted: 11/28/2009 8:40:26 AM
yes, and which arguments defending their position ? I don't see the arguments listed. neither do I see them represented as experts , merely as scientists.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 215
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 8:46:23 AM
which arguments defending their position ?

They can cherry-pick the best one from that list of "experts." As someone of mediocre intelligence, I have the necessary qualification to refute it and so have thrown down the gauntlet, which I still see sitting on the ground.

They were presented as scientists who support the young earth hypothesis, presumably with scientific arguments from their respective fields. All well and good. Pick the "best" argument that may have been advanced in that regard from any of them and I'll "have at it."
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 216
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 8:49:43 AM
Rug - Those who believe in YEC are against every scientific field... ever. If they believed in YEC they WOULD be laughed at.

I fail to see your point in all of this.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 217
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Posted: 11/28/2009 8:54:03 AM

Rug - Those who believe in YEC are against every scientific field... ever. If they believed in YEC they WOULD be laughed at.

I fail to see your point in all of this.
being laughed at is VERY different from being laughed out of the scientific world.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 218
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 8:58:56 AM

being laughed at is VERY different from being laughed out of the scientific world.


He's got you there, Verze:

"The opinion of thousands is not worth a spark of reason in one man." - Galileo Galilei
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 219
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Posted: 11/28/2009 9:41:37 AM
Stargazer said:Indeed, it supports the "randomness" of mutation as an unguided process and therefore shows how unnecessary a "designer" is since "guided" evolution would be a lot more efficient.
First you are talking about randomness of mutation as an unguided process
Are you claiming that Mutations are random, that Selection is random, or that Evolution is random ?

any of these? or something else ? or that something is not DIRECTIONAL ?

thanks.
 YourWordisTruth
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 220
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 11:44:36 AM

v----------------------v
• “ Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher;

“ Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.”
What profit has a man from all his labor
In which he toils under the sun?
One generation passes away, and another generation comes;
But the earth abides forever.
The sun also rises, and the sun goes down,
And hastens to the place where it arose.
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
All things are full of labor;
Man cannot express it.
The eye is not satisfied with seeing,
Nor the ear filled with hearing.
That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which it may be said,

“ See, this is new”?
It has already been in ancient times before us.
There is no remembrance of former things,
Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come
By those who will come after.

I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and indeed, all is vanity and grasping for the wind.

What is crooked cannot be made straight,
And what is lacking cannot be numbered.

I communed with my heart, saying, “Look, I have attained greatness, and have gained more wisdom than all who were before me in Jerusalem. My heart has understood great wisdom and knowledge.” And I set my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is grasping for the wind.

For in much wisdom is much grief,
And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow. [Ecclesiastes 1-18]
^----------------------^



I have a question for you guys (please answer honestly!)

:D


QUESTION: What satisfies you?


I'm sure a list of answers will be put down.
However, let's look at it honestly...
EACH and every one of those satisfactions that you proclaim
... are temporary.
Short lived.



***Temporary Satisfactions***




Look at it! I can go to the movies right now. Sure I'll get some entertainment from it. Yeah it will be joyful. Hollywood thrilling me to the fullest. But then as soon as it begins, it's over... 2 hours are up and my entertainment is taken away from me; thrown back in my memory bank somewhere.


I receive a craving for Starbucks, purchase a Caffè Vanilla Frappuccino, enjoy every second this drink is consumed and am satisfied by it. But as beautiful as it began it's quickly over and the craving is gone.

I can go downtown right now, get wasted and have fun at a club with some girls and my friends. For someone who is accustomed to this it would be completely entertaining and fun, but then the satisfaction ends, for it's time to go home...

EVERYTHING that we do... that we live for... is short lived. EVERYTHING! AND we can only do it so many times before we die, right? This brings me to my point...



Why grab onto this world filled with “Temporary satisfactions,”
when you can grab onto something that's forever?



When we are on our deathbeds,
the only way we can maintain being with this world is having vain memories of the good and bad.
But nothing more.
But what good are those memories going to do us in the end?
What good is anything going to do us?
All our life accomplishments... won't sustain that life lived.
We go in the same way we come out; naked.
We have absolutely nothing, and can’t take our life accomplishments, materialistic value or relationships with us.

Our lives are like the wind; it comes and goes!
Was there a point?
Does anyone take notice?




Even in the BIBLE, God gives this one man the BEST gift of all: wisdom. The funny thing is, with this WISDOM, he argues that “everything under the sun is MEANINGLESS” (he concludes with what is TRULY worth it at the end). He wrote a whole book on how everything is MEANINGLESS, check it out.
• [Ecclesiastes] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=Ecclesiastes%201-12&version=NKJV&interface=print





Guys, I'm not saying give up everything that you do in your lives,
all I'm saying is challenge yourselves.
Question this repetitive, short-live, temporary satisfactory existence.


Ask yourselves: "Is this truly all there is to it?"




Think about it :)



For those of you who are truly asking this question,
I'll provide the hidden answer!



Answer:
Jesus loves you.
Your life has purpose.
Seek what it is from what God gave us;
His Word in the flesh.
His Word written down.




(I know many of you won't like that answer. I know I didn't. But it wasn't until I thoroughly investigated it myself, and found what it truly means to live.)


There is more than just this repetitiveNESS called life,
seek it like I have :) Find out that the void we all have is the lack of Him.
• Not money.
• Not materialistic value.
• Not alcohol.
• Not Hollywood.
• Not relationships.
• Not video games.
• Not parties.
• Not food.
• Not our careers.
• Not our “accomplishments”
• Not drugs
• Not music
• Not our good deeds
• Not sex…


• Not the world.



For all these things are temporary satisfactions,
and perishable under the sun.



The missing void is acknowledging that God loves you,
and always has.
The ONLY genuine satisfaction one can receive,
Is Jesus’ love,
For it doesn’t wither away like the things of this earth,
But His love endures FOREVER.




So... what is the point to all of this life lived? Jesus gives us 2 reasons...

v----------------------v
• And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
So he answered and said,

• #1 “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’

• #2. and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” [Luke 10:25-37]
^----------------------^


Love God + Love your neigbour!”



These are the 2 Golden Rules as to why we are here!

We can't love our neighbour if we are lying to them, cheating them, harming them, manipulating them... for love covers everything. To love God is to follow Jesus and to love others.


This is truth :)


But why love Jesus? Because He loved you first!

GOD = LOVE!

His love for you led to His death on the cross. The ultimate sacrifice!

He died for you so that we may all live for Him.

And anyone who believes in Him will be saved from the sting of death,

and share eternal life... THIS IS LOVE!


v----------------------v
• "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." [1 John 4:10-11]
^----------------------^


JESUS' SACRIFICE MAKES IT SO


THAT OUR LIVES HERE ON EARTH


ARE NOT "MEANINGLESS".


WE FIND TRUE MEANING THROUGH


GOD! THROUGH JESUS!


Seek what is true :) Seek what it means to become a “Born Again” Christian from the Bible. (I recommend reading the Gospel of John 1st)


Your life has purpose!
Think about it guys,
God bless.



Real Gospel Message
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYLUpHQaiE&feature=PlayList&p=3AEE9D9B519AB875&index=11

Proof of God [Scientifically Proven]
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO7gV41PNcA&feature=PlayList&p=B85C5660528BDC11&index=0&playnext=1

5 Questions Every Atheist has to Answer
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTYe_V2hOZ4&feature=PlayList&p=B85C5660528BDC11&index=6&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL



JESUS LOVES YOU MORE THAN ANYONE DID, DOES OR EVER WILL!

:)

[Msg me if you want to know more!]
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 221
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Posted: 11/28/2009 11:51:28 AM
how about a message if we want to see less ?
IOW, please don't fill such large spaces with preaching. We get your drift. Just say "Read the Bible" or make a particular point..
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
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Posted: 11/28/2009 12:09:49 PM
Folks, that there the categorical imperative statement. It can be broken down to:

P = Scientists on the list
S = accepted the biblical account of creation and can scientifically defend their position.

If the poster is willing to change that premise, then, when, I reckon we would have to deal with the new premise. But, as that has not happened, the original stands, no matter how others may try to defend it, as by, for example, culling the list down to a subset --- after all, who's to say that a Botanist is not able to provide a truth -- truth is ubiquitously spread around the many branches of science, and we are yet at the stage where we can reveal the boundaries of each branch of science.

The P and S stand for "Predicate" and "Subject." One can invalidate that truth value of this statement by (1) showing one or more of those on the list who (a) are not, in fact scientists (as they are part of the 'definition' of P; (2) showing that one or more on the list either a) have not accepted the biblical account or b) do not have ready proof of the "the biblical account of creation.' That, after all, is part and parcel of the definition of S.

That is why one should be extremely careful NOT to make grandiose categorical imperative statements. If challenged and proven false, the grandiose statement relegates itself to Hyperbole.

The Truth value of the premise can also be destroyed by showing (1) NON on the list are in fact, loadable under S (which, in this case, is possible) ; or that SOME are not S (categorical opposites, "some does not equal all).
or one can be more correct yet and see if JUST ONE scientist stands as proof that Verzen was incorrect.

Just ONE scientist not laughed out of the scientific world because he believes.

That WAS the challenge, wasn't it ? So what if the reply provided dozens and one is incorrect ? only one is needed. Or are you attempting a shift here ?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 223
Debunking creationist myths
Posted: 11/28/2009 12:20:30 PM

QUESTION: What satisfies you?

Doing what is fair & just.


EACH and every one of those satisfactions that you proclaim
... are temporary.
Short lived.

So what?

Our lives are like the wind; it comes and goes!
Was there a point?
Does anyone take notice?

Mortality and morality are not correlated.
The point is that good was achieved. It doesn't matter in the long run whether or not anyone noticed, the point is that right was done.

Question this repetitive, short-live, temporary satisfactory existence.

I wish with all my heart that everyone would do that.

Jesus loves you.

The Jesus described in the bible almost surely never existed, but was created as a composite of more than one man and other religious beliefs.

Your life has purpose.

My life has the purpose I make for it.

Seek what it is from what God gave us;

That would be a reasoning mind.

His Word in the flesh.

...is not His Word, but only the power-mad ramblings of a man trying to unite his empire, mixed with the visions of high priests that got written in earlier scripture.

His Word written down.

As I say...not His Word.... That was just Constantine's opinion of moonlight.

it wasn't until I thoroughly investigated it myself, and found what it truly means to live.

What you found was illusory...keep investigating.

the void we all have is the lack of Him.

The void we all have is a fear of seeing ourselves as we truly are.

The missing void is acknowledging that God loves you, and always has.

The missing void is the realization that God IS Love and that we are the living manifestation of God insofar as we recognize this and spread love into the world through compassionate action.

The ONLY genuine satisfaction one can receive, Is Jesus’ love,

False.

For it doesn’t wither away like the things of this earth,

False.

But His love endures FOREVER.

False.

At this point I see little use in continuing down through the rest of your post. I long ago saw your point...I hope you can see mine.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 224
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Posted: 11/28/2009 12:39:38 PM
Nope, RugDoctor, not attempting to shift. On the contrary, I'm bringing the discussion back to its original state. You're right, one "false" example could bring the deck of cards tumbling down -- that speaks to Popper's theory. But I rather fancy the notion that a significant subset of these, ah, scientists, do not possess the qualities attributed to S.

And, yes, there's a difference between what one or two scientists might bring to the table and what the scientific community is willing to put forth as "best available evidence." As in other fields, there is much debate on what "truth" is, and several scientists "on the fringe" does not, and should not, speak on behalf of an entire scientific community.

good. No shift. No shift on what...No shift taking it away from Verzen's statement being questioned and onto a reply being questioned ?

The reply seems to have weak spots, at least spots that need explaining.
Nevertheless, the THREAD OP is Verzen making assertions . Remember ?

The ones "supporting", "representing" Science, really need to be clean, here.
After all, using clean thinking is paramount to scientific discussion.
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 225
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Posted: 11/28/2009 12:48:40 PM
And, yes, there's a difference between what one or two scientists might bring to the table and what the scientific community is willing to put forth as "best available evidence." As in other fields, there is much debate on what "truth" is, and several scientists "on the fringe" does not, and should not, speak on behalf of an entire scientific community.

true, a big difference.

what we're after here is the debunker's claims, though. Verzen's, and others', who join him as debunkers.
Are their claims good, or bogus, or shifting as soon as replied to ?
 Rug Doctor
Joined: 11/2/2005
Msg: 226
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Posted: 11/28/2009 12:58:32 PM

Count Ibli said: Fact: There are hundreds. Maybe thousands. In a sense, all of them are.

In a sense that exemplifies an instance supporting Evolution as true ? That would be the only sense that counts, really , eh ?


after that, then this "What sense do your choice examples exist under , as "transitional" ?
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