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 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 51
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?Page 3 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)
Just an anecdote after reading some of the other posts. My children have never been spanked when they haven't been significantly warned beforehand, a given that they may have gotten a swat for heading for the street or something, which would have occurred without an immediate warning but obviously behavior they had already been told was dangerous and time was a factor.

When I am really at the end of my rope and toolbox with the kids, I go into my kitchen, grab a cabinet door and open and slam it until my timeout is over. This usually occurs after a full day of the kids, 10, 14 and 17, at each other's throats and/or not doing whatever minimal chores they have been asked to do, something that usually involves them justifying their inaction based on the siblings productivity, sigh. Oddly enough, a spanking is never involved because the little buggers realize they have gone to far and mom might actually snap for real.

I agree to a significant extent about the kids, not necessarily because of spanking but because the pendulum swung away from authoritarian to permissive parenting. I was absolutely appalled 14 years ago when we finally had custody of my then 16-year-old stepson. The way these kids talked to teachers and administrators, the really bottom of the barrel scum in school when I was coming up would not even have dreamed of saying.

I was spanked when I was a kid, it was not the fear of spanking that kept my mouth in check, and I back-talked plenty as a teen but there was a line that I didn't cross because it would not have been tolerated by my parents. I think today's kids know that many parents are afraid to really discipline their kids and to do the tough love thing if it is necessary when they are teens. It is also interesting that my daughter who is a senior has more than a few friends that have been kicked out of the house before they finish high school. Are the kids worse, or did the parents not set the appropriate boundaries for all of their developmental stages? My kids aren't angels, they infuriate me on a regular basis because evidently this is their job but they know there are certain things I am going to dig my heels in about and not give up reminding them that I am the adult and the only one with money, i.e. they can't take care of themselves and they know they aren't going to find anyone else willing to support them, and they must listen to me, sigh.

I'm looking at the when the kid gets bigger than you thing right now with my middle son and my youngest who will not only be taller than me one day, at 10, the kid is already built like a linebacker. I think what will make the difference with my boys is that they know that they do need someone telling them what to do even if they don't like it and as I am the only constant that has ever been in their lives, they will think long and hard about pushing me to a point that I have to draw a line in the sand.

As for the analogy with spanking adults, we spank them by firing them and by locking them up when they break laws. Just as with children, for some, the pocketbook and employment is sufficient motivation for behavior modification, when not, those people usually wind up either in dead end minimum wage jobs barely making ends meet or in jail.

And I agree that parenting without spanking is better but yannow, I can't really get it out of my head that every time I see a kid who is just acting so horribly that even when my kids were really young they would look at the kids like they were out of their minds for the behavior at the store or wherever, I think, that kid has never been spanked. Old school, chicken shit parenting or whatever one wishes to call spanking I think that there are places and times when it should occur.


62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Case in point, they looked at the child behaviors, did they investigate the parenting methods of any of the people using the corporal punishment, i.e. were they using any strategies beyond spanking, how often was spanking used, etc. Sixty-two years doesn't mean jack if the controls for other variables were not properly examined and managed.
 Vanderlan
Joined: 8/2/2009
Msg: 52
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:08:00 AM

Case in point, they looked at the child behaviors, did they investigate the parenting methods of any of the people using the corporal punishment, i.e. were they using any strategies beyond spanking, how often was spanking used, etc. Sixty-two years doesn't mean jack if the controls for other variables were not properly examined and managed.


These are summaries of the studies written for news publications, and as such there generally is not enough space in which to describe all of the variables and controls utilized in any given study. Fortunately the academic and governmental institutions from whence these studies originated are listed in these accounts. Following is a brief listing:

psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University
Duke University
University of Missouri-Columbia,
University of South Carolina,
Columbia University
Harvard University
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
National Institute of Mental Health
American Psychological Association

All of these institutions have reputations for outstanding, peer reviewed, rigorous scientific investigative work.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 53
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:31:44 AM
I was thinking, out of a small list (Let's use:)

Albert Einstein
Bill Gates
Steve Forbes
Stephen Hawking
Carl Sagan
Arthur C. Clarke

How many of those folks got spankings as children? How many have a lower IQ than the people in this thread who have never been spanked?
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 54
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:39:03 AM

I think another poster said it, and i agree. I think the tendancy for spanking children is far more prevalent in lower education and lower income families. Sure there are exceptions, but I'd bet that stat would bear out.

IQ is menatal age as it relates to physical age, if you are in a lower income/educational househould i think it bears out that they would have a lower mental age. As an average i would also bet that the average iq of parents that spank is ALSO lower.

Hell some of the smartest people i know are conservatives, but have you seen that map that showed the average IQ of states that went to george w bush in the 04 election? Holy Cow it was damning.


Here we go again, stereotyping. Utter Nonsence, low income/ education has absolutely nothing to do with IQ. IQ isn't something you learn in school or something that can be bought. Hell you can have the IQ of a genius and still be uneducated and poor
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 55
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:03:13 PM
You really think so superdad? You're calling me out, as most of your posts are logical and level headed, i'll just give you some resources.

First off IQ tests generally include vocabulary; verbal analogies; number sequencing,
and some math. SOME children WILL have an advantage based on their upbringing. IQ stand for Intelligence Quotient, derived from the mental age of the child vs the physical age. If a child has been coached and educated from early stages of life (say pre k for example) it would make sense that they would have a competitive advantage would it not?

IQ IS in fact something you can learn in school actually, THAT is why they test children so young. You can develop skills that aide you, plus as you age it messes up the "quotient" and doesn't have as much validity.

Also their are other funtions of performance on testing, for example: Nutrition. The studies that show the effects of good nutrition on student performance are numerous. As are the studies that show that the lower you are in the socio-economic world, the worse your nutrition is (in general)

http://www.connectforkids.org/node/516
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-12-07-childrens-brains_N.htm

Theres a ton more out there. To say low income and education has nothing to do with IQ seems a bit out there to me. While you can have the iq of a genius and still be uneducated and poor, the odds are most certainly stacked against you. Nutrition, lifestyle, education ALL contribute to the brain development of children.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 56
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:05:22 PM
Big Pacific:
What about my point:


I was thinking, out of a small list (Let's use:)

Albert Einstein
Bill Gates
Steve Forbes
Stephen Hawking
Carl Sagan
Arthur C. Clarke

How many of those folks got spankings as children? How many have a lower IQ than the people in this thread who have never been spanked?
 Vanderlan
Joined: 8/2/2009
Msg: 57
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:05:23 PM

Here we go again, stereotyping. Utter Nonsence, low income/ education has absolutely nothing to do with IQ. IQ isn't something you learn in school or something that can be bought. Hell you can have the IQ of a genius and still be uneducated and poor


While some of this may be true, it does not negate the findings of the study in the original post.



The IQ scores of children ages two to four who were spanked were 5 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.
The IQ scores of children ages five to nine who were spanked were 2.8 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.



Here is some information about the lead researcher. You can also view much more information about his work in this area by going to http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/.


Widely considered the foremost researcher in his field, Straus is the co-director of the Family Research Laboratory and professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. He has studied spanking by large and representative samples of American parents since 1969. He is the author of "Beating The Devil Out Of Them: Corporal Punishment In American Families And Its Effects On Children."
He has been president of three scientific societies including the National Council on Family Relations, and has been an advisor to the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation. Much of his research on spanking can be downloaded from http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2.
Straus's research was supported, in part, by a grant from the National Institute of Mental Health.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 58
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:15:05 PM
I actually was spanked spag. As for your list, i have NO idea if albert einstein was spanked, nor anyone else on that list. I couldn't begin to surmise.

If you choose to mention specifics to show that there are specific examples that go against a trend, I would agree there are. I don't think anyone here was saying that "if you are spanked, you have an IQ of 80, PERIOD". For the 6 you list, list 6,000,000 kids that get spanked, and then test them against the ones that aren't.

I think Einstein, Hawking AND Sagan would agree they were too small a test group to determine any real results.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:46:21 PM

I think Einstein, Hawking AND Sagan would agree they were too small a test group to determine any real results.

That is why I said "A Small list"

I can make it a LOT bigger if you would like. How many do I need before I am right?

Also, what happened to the low IQ being because of TV. Or when it was because of violent video games? Or is all 3? If it is all 3, then which effects more? These are the questions that lead me to believe this is a hooey study.

Of course, this is opinion. The study is (as of now) fact. So I will be content with my wrong opinion (and until the 'facts' change it is wrong.)

FYI on the list I provided:
Einstien = spankings
Clarke = spankings

Those are the only two I have seen quotes saying they were spanked. The others, is a googleistic adventure I suppose. In the end, GREAT TOPIC! I wish I knew more about either side so I could participate better.
 Birchbeer76
Joined: 2/24/2009
Msg: 60
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:02:49 PM
I don't see spanking as the issue in of itself. The study, to be accurate should have included the parents in a questionairre of how they parented. Are they involved? Do they do all they can, or minimal? Were there observations of the family's done to see how they interacted?

In my own personal life I was spanked. I have spanked my kids, my friends have spakned their kids as well. I don't see an issue there.

The issue I see between my friends children and mine is involvement. I try to be very involved in my children's education. My buddy is taking the minimalistic, lets play computer all night and let the gameboy raise them (on average, sometimes he does stuff). There are more spankings going on in his home than in my home. But I think the spankings are just a symptom of something else...
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 61
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:19:41 PM
Oh my god birchbeer you and your kids have lower IQ's now, lol. according to the above
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:24:26 PM
^^^^^^^^ Still waiting for your response to the IQ post i threw up earlier superdad.
'
And now for something completely differnet.

I think thats interesting spag, and often in these forums i see people that confuse correlation with causation. It isn't the end all be all.

Is it hard to believe that children that spend more time watching television aren't doing something that could be more based in the realm of academia? Or kids that play video games? The supposition that only ONE thing on this earth can affect a childs score seems a bit out there to me.

Also remember we are talking about IQ here, NOT intelligence. There is a VERY large distinction, many children don't test well. Some are late starters, hell einstein couldn't read for forever. He probably wouldn't have scored well at an early age.

I mean theres that stat that says kids that play music do better in school, i've always felt that is a misinterpretation of the data and that it was based on socio-economic backrounds, mom can't afford a baby grand probably can't afford a tutor if the kid struggles kinda deal. I sincerely doubt that violin is going to make the kid a genius, i think its MORE that kids with the ability to participate in music come from more affluent backrounds and therefor have a better support group.

I feel this study is similar, it's not that you are "beating" the kids brains out, so to speak. To me it reads that the backround and genetics of people that spank, probably on average isn't as good as those that don't. This isn't a "you shouldn't spank" agenda, i just think its interesting. Raise your kids as you see fit. Again, your results may vary.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 63
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:12:26 AM

So you agree that this study and others conducted in the same manner are fundamentally flawed, but you still say it demonstrates something valuable. Bullshi|t says I. Either a study is reliable or it's not. Using a poorly constructed soapbox to stand on when you make your point doesn't give your argument more authority, it just means you'll use anything to get your point across. Bear in mind that I agree with your position on corporal punishment.


If we were talking about A single study that showed there are negative aspects to spanking, yeah, I would take IT with a grain of salt. However, there have been so many studies on this topic and they all come to essentially the same conclusion...spanking carries far more negatives than positives....can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?

Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance (which btw didn't work anyway in my case...I'm a stubborn woman). The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak...turned out ok compared to what? You will never know.
 That Guy Him
Joined: 8/5/2009
Msg: 64
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:30:59 AM


While some of this may be true, it does not negate the findings of the study in the original post.

The IQ scores of children ages two to four who were spanked were 5 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.
The IQ scores of children ages five to nine who were spanked were 2.8 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.

So what were the long term effects? Where's the comparison of IQ scores from ages 10 to 13? 14 to 18? 19 to 25? 26 to 35? 36 to 40? 41 to 52? The trend showed that the gap in IQ was decreasing as these children continued to age. I'd like to know the differences later on in life.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 65
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:08:00 AM
That Guy, during childhood until about 25, we are learning and developing, at times at a lightening fast pace. Our physical bodies mature. We develop both emotionally and intellectually. A friend of mine and I were discussing how stress can affect development. Granted we were discussing emotional development, not intellectual development but logically I can see a link between the two and the effects of stress upon that maturation process/development.

He used the analogy of a plant (child) and the environment (home/parenting/etc) either allowing the plant to grow and thrive or shrivel up and die. I do believe that there are many factors that can negatively affect the development of children. As a parent, I took it upon myself to educate myself on what these factors were so I could design my parenting and our home to greatly reduce/eliminate these factors for my child(ren).

Among the understanding that corporal punishment carries more negatives than positives for a child, I also understand that calling the behaviour naughty and not the child is key to the development of self-esteem. Ensuring that children feel safe in their environment (free of drama/abuse/lots of anger, etc...), being consistent with expectations and "rules of conduct" that apply equally to everyone in the home, ensuring children eat a well-balanced diet, get plenty of exercise and sleep among so many other things set our children up to succeed, not to fail.

I think some folks see people who are anti-corporal punishment as permissive and that would be an incorrect assumption to make. The old "spare the rod and spoil the child" ideology is not something I personally buy into. Children need discipline in the form of teaching and allowing them to basically do what they want/when they want is in my opinion just a different form of abuse. Children need boundaries, they need to be socialized and to learn their abilities/limits, it is our job to teach them. Most of the parents I know who don't use corporal punishment are actually quite strict with their children and their children are well-behaved.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 66
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:32:43 AM

psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University
Duke University
University of Missouri-Columbia,
University of South Carolina,
Columbia University
Harvard University
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
National Institute of Mental Health
American Psychological Association

All of these institutions have reputations for outstanding, peer reviewed, rigorous scientific investigative work.

I don't disagree with that comment but there is also something that needs to be taken into consideration when one looks at psychological studies in particular. Most study something that is fairly narrow and many studies are designed to control for certain variables. When one looks at the discussion and conclusion section of the studies, the researchers will list the problems inherent with the design, the size of the sample, the things that were controlled for. With the divorce studies, for example, there have been at least twenty years or more of studies that did not even look at parenting style and efficacy, they were only looking at the age of the children at the time of divorce, whether the non-custodial parent was involved, etc. it has only been very recently that they have been factoring parenting into the studies. Many studies even failed to consider how the child was doing before the divorce, when mom and dad were bringing them up in a turbulent home, to see if the academic and social behaviors had deteriorated or if they were merely doing less well than their peers in good nuclear families, which would have been the case divorce or not. It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.

So it is not that any single study is massively flawed but psychological studies tend to feed off each other. We have findings from a study, there will be others done with larger samples, etc. to see if the results can be replicated. Then they start looking at the holes in the studies, so they design new studies to account for those and it may take 20 or more years to really get to the point that they have actually been able to isolate the one factor, in this case spanking, to gauge exactly what is going on.

The study that was originally cited in the OP illustrated that the IQ gap closed from the younger children to the older children so just using simple logic it is highly likely that those children that were five points behind at 4 and 5 years old were not quite so behind later suggesting that the children were not perhaps raised in an intellectually stimulating environment and that being in school where they were challenged properly made a difference in the IQ.

Psychological studies are frustrating from this standpoint because you really need a huge volume for the results to be empirical and many people that read them, report on them, or quote them, don't read the whole study and information gleaned from an article, as has been mentioned by several posters, is really suspect because they often don't understand what they are writing about and cherry pick what they report, like leaving out the disclaimers by the researchers relative to problems in design, variables not accounted for, etc., because they want the best bang for the buck with the article. Shock value stuff sells papers and magazines.
 1kindMan4U
Joined: 5/23/2007
Msg: 67
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:52:13 AM
Spanking is the application of physical violence over reason. I raised two kids to adulthood and never spanked them.

Now, cleaning my weapons in a wifebeater T-shirt whenever guys came over to pick up my daughter.. THAT sent a message that couldnt be ignored.

Or is that a country song. I forgot
 tass08
Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 68
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:58:43 AM
If we were talking about A single study that showed there are negative aspects to spanking, yeah, I would take IT with a grain of salt. However, there have been so many studies on this topic and they all come to essentially the same conclusion...spanking carries far more negatives than positives....can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?
My point was not that "studies" disprove your thesis. My point was that any study purporting to blame a single factor in a child's life/environment on how the child turned out is not worth the paper it is printed on. Any study saying spanking is ok would be just as flawed. I have already stated as much, twice, and you continue to respond to me as though I disagree with you about spanking. I agree with you about spanking. But your premise --- that a "study" proves spanking is bad --- is flawed, and detracts from rather than supports your argument.



Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance (which btw didn't work anyway in my case...I'm a stubborn woman). The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak...turned out ok compared to what? You will never know.

I never made the argument that I turned out ok having been spanked. I never brought myself into it. In fact I was not spanked but my personal SUBJECTIVE experience has no bearing on the argument one way or another. My point is that unless you can separate spanking from other factors in a child's upbringing, you cannot argue OBJECTIVELY that spanking is right or wrong.
 futureshock
Joined: 5/8/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 12:42:25 PM
It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.


Actually, the newer studies have differentiated between high conflict homes and low conflict homes. Only children from high conflict homes do better after a divorce. Children from low conflict homes do better IN GENERAL AND ON AVERAGE if the parents stay together.

Children from high conflict divorced homes only do better in comparison to other children from high conflict homes whose parents stay married. Children from high conflict homes whose parents divorce still do not do as well as children with parents who are married (as long as they are not in a high conflict marriage).


Another big surprise – divorce harms children
Thursday, January 22, 2009
By Robert Franklin

Here’s a shocker.  Divorce harms kids.  The latest evidence is reported here (The Australian, 12/8/08).
It reports on an international study detailed in the Journal Comparative Sociology. The study looked at educational outcomes for over 30,000 Australians and found that children lose up to a year of school incident to divorce. The study concludes,
"Divorce's impact on children's education is, we suggest, in a large part a consequence of the disruption, the loss of parental control and the difficulties that a sole parent or a step-parent faces in raising children - all of which reduces children's prospects for success in school."
This is just the latest evidence we have to support the notion that our 30 + -year experiment with no-fault divorce has failed. For decades, the concept of no-fault divorce was vigorously promoted by, among others, the National Association of Women Lawyers. The theory was that adults shouldn’t be trapped in a relationship that benefitted neither party. Into the bargain, the no-fault divorce crowd told us that children would be better off too if they weren’t exposed to constantly bickering parents. By 1983, every state but two had adopted no-fault divorce laws and, to no one’s surprise, the divorce rate soared.
Throughout the 1970s and early 80s, the divorce rate increased reaching over 40%. But now, thanks mostly to people’s actual experiences as well as the small avalanche of studies like the one reported on by The Australian, divorce rates are declining.
No-fault divorce laws should be modified, but more important is public education about the harmful effects of divorce on children. They are many and varied. Children suffer from divorce and when children suffer, society suffers too.? 
http://mensnewsdaily.com/glennsacks/2009/01/22/another-big-surprise-%E2%80%93-divorce-harms-children/

 futureshock
Joined: 5/8/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 1:16:02 PM

I don't disagree with that comment but there is also something that needs to be taken into consideration when one looks at psychological studies in particular. Most study something that is fairly narrow and many studies are designed to control for certain variables. When one looks at the discussion and conclusion section of the studies, the researchers will list the problems inherent with the design, the size of the sample, the things that were controlled for. With the divorce studies, for example, there have been at least twenty years or more of studies that did not even look at parenting style and efficacy, they were only looking at the age of the children at the time of divorce, whether the non-custodial parent was involved, etc. it has only been very recently that they have been factoring parenting into the studies. Many studies even failed to consider how the child was doing before the divorce, when mom and dad were bringing them up in a turbulent home, to see if the academic and social behaviors had deteriorated or if they were merely doing less well than their peers in good nuclear families, which would have been the case divorce or not. It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.

So it is not that any single study is massively flawed but psychological studies tend to feed off each other. We have findings from a study, there will be others done with larger samples, etc. to see if the results can be replicated. Then they start looking at the holes in the studies, so they design new studies to account for those and it may take 20 or more years to really get to the point that they have actually been able to isolate the one factor, in this case spanking, to gauge exactly what is going on.

The study that was originally cited in the OP illustrated that the IQ gap closed from the younger children to the older children so just using simple logic it is highly likely that those children that were five points behind at 4 and 5 years old were not quite so behind later suggesting that the children were not perhaps raised in an intellectually stimulating environment and that being in school where they were challenged properly made a difference in the IQ.


Any halfway decent study controls for variables like making sure the study isn't overlooking things like the intellectual stimulation in the environment, etc.


Psychological studies are frustrating from this standpoint because you really need a huge volume for the results to be empirical


The studies posted on this thread have for the most part, as far as I have read, been empirical and have included large samples over many, many years, all combined.


and many people that read them, report on them, or quote them, don't read the whole study and information gleaned from an article, as has been mentioned by several posters, is really suspect because they often don't understand what they are writing about and cherry pick what they report, like leaving out the disclaimers by the researchers relative to problems in design, variables not accounted for, etc., because they want the best bang for the buck with the article. Shock value stuff sells papers and magazines.




Spanking creates defiant, aggressive children

By Jared Wadley
News Service
Spanking makes it more likely, not less, that children will be defiant and aggressive. And physical punishment puts kids at risk for increased mental health problems, anti-social behavior and serious injuries, a new U-M report shows.
"There is little research evidence that physical punishment improves children's behaviors in the long term," says Elizabeth Gershoff, the report's author and an associate professor in the School of Social Work.
The report, released in collaboration with the Phoenix Children's Hospital in Arizona, offers a review of empirical research on the effects physical punishment has on children.
Gershoff analyzed 100 years of research and published studies on physical punishment, spanking in particular. Most findings indicate that spanking is an ineffective parenting practice within the United States and around the world.
"There is growing momentum among other countries to enact legal bans on all forms of physical punishment," says Gershoff, whose research focuses on the impacts of parenting and violence exposure on child and youth development over time.
The practice is regarded as a violation of international human-rights law, she says.
Several recent studies reveal that many parents still physically abuse their children, especially children ages 1 and 2. By the time children reach fifth grade, 80 percent have received physical punishment.
In multiple studies, spanking has been found to lead to mental health problems in children, such as anxiety and depression, alcohol and drug use, and poor psychological adjustments. These problems also increase stress levels, she says.
Gershoff's report indicates that spanking can also harm parent-child relationships. If a child avoids painful experiences, and if he or she sees the parent as the source of pain from corporal punishment, he or she may avoid parents. This can interfere with a child developing trust and closeness, she says.
So how should parents discipline their children? Gershoff says children behave better when they are motivated by praise or the promise of rewards rather than by threats of punishment. Children need teaching and guidance from parents so they can learn how to make better choices in the future.
"(Spanking) does not teach children why their behavior was wrong or what they should do instead," the report states.
The findings appear in "The Report on Physical Punishment in the United States," www.phoenixchildrens.com/about/community-outreach-education/
effective-discipline.html.
http://www.ur.umich.edu/0809/Mar30_09/07.php
 Vanderlan
Joined: 8/2/2009
Msg: 71
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 2:28:15 PM
as i stated before.. i was spanked and i am not defiant nor aggressive. I am depressed.. but that is due to a different set of circumstances that occured in my late teens and not related to spanking. It is not a violation of human rights as the act doesn't actually damage the child and they do learn the bounderies..well..cos.. my entire family are living proof.. we are all intelligent and successful and we were all spanked and it was worse for my parents ad grand parents as tyhey used to recieve the cain across the palms of their hands.

aslong as you are not physcially beating the child and it is done in an controlled, non emotional manner with an open handed gentle slap that doesn't leave a mark.. then all is good.


Are you sure that it isn't a violation of human rights?







CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: Towards Constructive Child Discipline
Report
During the Commission on Human Rights, UNESCO launched a new report entitled "Eliminating Corporal Punishment - The Way Forward to Constructive Child Discipline". The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child has consistently recommended States Parties to the Convention on the Rights of the Child to prohibit corporal punishment and other forms of violence against children in institutions, in schools, and in the homes. The past 25 years have shown that the elimination of corporal punishment is not easy to achieve.
To discipline or punish through physical harm is clearly a violation of the most basic of human rights. Research on corporal punishment has found it to be counterproductive and relatively ineffective, as well as dangerous and harmful to physical, psychological and social well being. While many States have developed child protection laws and systems violence still continues to be inflicted upon children.
This UNESCO publication provides a comprehensive approach, including the main steps to be considered in the process of eliminating corporal punishment, and provides tools to accomplish this goal. It shows the human rights imperative and describes several aspects of the negative consequences and implications that are caused. It details practical steps for more constructive and effective child discipline practices, and ongoing supports for long-term change.
An international panel of experts presents descriptions of some of the constructive discipline orientations and practices known to be applied in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Middle East, and South America. They include: involving learners and their parents in decisions about codes of conduct and associated practices; providing guidance in the selection of positive models in peers and classmates; family meetings and inter-generational dialogue; rendering services to the community to rectify rule infractions; and exploring ethical-moral meanings and implications in current events. Additionally, two experts on Indigenous peoples provide descriptions of constructive child rearing and discipline orientations and related practices for peoples they know well.
For more information, contact:?UNESCO ?7 Place de Fontenoy, 75352 Paris 07 SP, France?Tel: + 33 1 45 680 686; Fax: + 33 1 45 685 626?Website: www.unesco.org

 Consigliori
Joined: 1/7/2008
Msg: 72
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 3:05:16 PM
I'm afraid I'll have to return to review the entire thread - but I'd like to add that:

I come from a non-spanking, pacifist family and my preference is provide consequences with as little corporal impact as possible. That said I reserve the right to spank my kids if I think it should be necessary.

Interestingly, the highest court in my home state (MN) decided last year that a father who paddled his son with a stick dozens of times was within his rights to do so. - Don't have the cite handy - sorry.

Also, even if the study the OP cites were accurate, I would argue there are more important characteristics for my children to have than intelligence, i.e.: honesty, integrity, respect for others, etc., and that, given a choice, I would trade a drop in IQ points for values if I thought that spanking would teach my children meaningful values.

gottarun
 hooked_and_happy
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 73
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:08:16 PM

Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance

What about the fear and threat of being put into your room or another room for hours at a time, or having your favorite most treasured toy taken away for days or being told that you could never do -(insert your favorite activity here)- anymore? Do you not think that to certain kids that would have a traumatic impact on thier lives and cause a drop in IQ? Just because a parent doesn't spank thier kids, doesn't mean that there aren't other non-physical disciplines that may cause an IQ drop.

The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak

The thing is, none of us know how our lives would have changed had we NOT been spanked. I was afraid of my dad when I was little. Not scared as is... I cried and screamed at the thought of getting in trouble... but scared enough that I KNEW not to get into trouble. Imagine if my dad would have just put me on a 'timout' instead of giving me a tap on the bottom? The thing is, we'll never know.

can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?

Why would I need to find a study? Why must we all do things according to some so-called expert's findings? Um, I'm not sure which apples to buy my kids for thier lunches... I guess I should find a study to tell me what apples to buy, cause god knows, if it's a study it MUST be right.

To each thier own.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 74
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:25:55 PM

Any halfway decent study controls for variables like making sure the study isn't overlooking things like the intellectual stimulation in the environment, etc.

No they don't, because it is impossible to initially isolate for everything. It may be impossible to ever isolate the single variable because we don't live in labs.

With spanking for example, it is absolutely impossible to do a study that would truly measure this. Taking sets of children with the same IQ, preferably twins and raising them exactly the same with the only difference being spanking. Can you do this in the same home, treat your kids like guinea pigs. Can you find families that spank and families that do not that would be willing to take one of the twins and raise them for the purpose of the study?

It is impossible to control for personality and temperamental differences in children, personality differences in parents, are the parents going to discipline and do everything else the same? Is a parent that has little physical contact with their child and doesn't spank going to produce a more well rounded higher IQ child than the parent that has a lot of physical contact with a child, huggling, snuggling, loving and occasionally spanks when there is physical danger involved? Have they controlled for the quality of the relationships of the parents? Were all of these children from two-parent biologically intact nuclear families? Socio-economic level also plays into this because people without money don't take their children to museums and other intellectually stimulating activities and have less things in their homes designed to stimulate intellectual development, less books, etc. Nutrition also plays a role, were the nutritional intakes of the children involved in the study examined as well?

What these studies do is they start small, they investigate a single variable and try to control for the differences. Then the next study controls for the problems with the first one, the third one controls for other things that were problematic in the second one. Most of the studies that need to be done aren't as effective as they could be because of the need for studies following these children for 30 years to see if as adults they are continuing to underperform in comparison to their non-spanked peers. If the difference in IQ is apparently mitigated by a couple of years of schooling as represented by the ages that kids were evaluated, can't we conclude that by high school no gap would exist, at least relative to IQ? If the studies started out this way, controlling for every possibility and examining all of the variables involved, those that were done 40 years ago would have looked at parenting styles and they did not.
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 75
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:32:18 PM

Um, I'm not sure which apples to buy my kids for thier lunches... I guess I should find a study to tell me what apples to buy, cause god knows, if it's a study it MUST be right.


I've seen studies that say apples aren't good for you,lmao.
I agree TO HELL with all the studies, Life has an infinite amount of variables and no amount of studies are going to tell you the outcome.There will ALWAYS be, what if?
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