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 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 122
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?Page 5 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)

Virtually EVERY felon was spanked. I mean almost ALL. Whack a mole, make a felon

Really? So are you saying every person spanked is going to be a felon?

If not, then what does that point matter?

Correlation does not equal causation.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 123
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 10:31:21 PM
Spagetti, I am surprised at you, as you have displayed far too much intelligence to utter (type) such a ridiculous statement. You know better! Do you think that if I say that all men wearing red pants are felons, then all felons wear red pants? Please don't insult my intelligence! You know very well that is not my point.

My response was clearly to the notion that spanking works. If all felons were spanked, it obviously didn't work for them, as far as behavior modification, or as a tool in teaching proper behavior. Is that clearer?
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 125
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 10:57:20 PM
I was responding to the poster under you, but I think your opinion still applies...

As much as I am aware that statistics are used to further both sides of an argument, they are also compilations of data. The data is that nearly ALL those convicted of violent crimes were spanked. True, they may were most likely beaten rather than "spanked" , but for the kids, let's face it, it's relative.

It is NOT relative. Ask anyone that has been beaten and spanked. To compare the two is a little stretchy IMO.

Now, the correlation equals causation part. I am not saying that the coincidence isn't there (assuming there is data, I have not looked), but it still doesn't make it the cause. I know of several parents that refuse to lay a hand on their child because they were spanked. I don't know the true numbers of course, so this is just my opinion.



If you are hit, you are taught to hit, period.

I know of several parents that refuse to lay a hand on their child because they were spanked.

Remember, I am not saying one is better than the other. I am saying it is up to the parents to decide which to use. (Personal Preference)
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 127
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:02:36 PM
It is NOT wrong merely because you are the exception. Besides, if you hit your kids, you HAVE raised a violent hand, now haven't you?

[i like it how "ohwhynot" automatically assumes that if i spank a child that i don't love them nor do i talk to them..what an ignorant ass-hat. I say this over and over AND over again.. my entire family including extended family.. all the members of the family that live in Australia, England and Scotland.. they were ALL spanked... and NONE of them had any kind of attitude problem.. they are ALL successfull and ALL intelligent and NONE of them are criminals.. and i having a bloody big family :)

puts those falsified statistics to shame really.]

I don't assume anything, nor did I ever once state that a parent who spanks their child doesn't love or talk to them. As a matter of fact, I admitted that I have given my own children a swat or two. Your insults directed at me, however, are just as tellng as to your real character as are your posts regarding how children don't respond to your speaking to them. They make one wonder how you speak to your own children. As far as your family, I don't know them. As for you, your attitude is obvious, your intelligence less than impressive and "I having a big bloody family (aside from obvious jokes to be made about them being "bloody") is completely meaningless. In any case, I didn't address you specifically, nor do I care to waste my time doing so. Have a wonderful life!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 129
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:20:53 PM
[It is NOT relative. Ask anyone that has been beaten and spanked. To compare the two is a little stretchy IMO]

Of course it is relative, to the child. A child hit doesn't know of the child who is hit harder, they only have their own experience to go on. You even said, "ask the child who has been beaten AND spanked" The child who is only beaten knows nothing of spanking, and vice versa. Have you ever looked in the eyes of a child after they have been hit? Shame, shock , fear & often resentment and anger are apparent. It is the result that matters, isn't it?

At the risk of being repetitive, I will say again that a swat is okay, albeit rarely, but it is not discipline, and it is not educational. Like all forms of physicality, it is subject to the "slippery slope". It gets easier, and the swats get harder, as children are controlled for the moment, although less so each time. Not taught, controlled.
 futureshock
Joined: 5/8/2009
Msg: 130
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:36:27 PM
These are interesting findings:



Previous research had also found that parents who spank are more likely to be younger, less educated, single, and/or depressed and stressed, Berlin's study said. Spanking is most commonly used among parents who were spanked themselves, who live in the South, and/or who identify themselves as conservative Christians. These parents also tend to believe in the effectiveness of spanking or believe the child is at fault in a given situation, the study said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/16/spanking.children.parenting/index.html



African American mothers, but not fathers, spank more frequently than most other racial/ ethnic groups. Younger, less-educated parents in larger households ... are more likely to spank/
books.google.com/books?isbn=0495390925...

Region and education play a role in how likely parents are to spank. Seventy-three percent of parents from the southern United States approve of spanking, compared to 60 percent elsewhere in the country. And 38 percent of parents with college degrees endorse spanking, compared to 55 percent of less educated parents, the poll found.
http://www.thestressoflife.com/to_spank_or_not_to_spank.htm


Younger mothers, those who endorsed fewer alternatives to corporal punishment, and those who experienced their infants as “difficult” were significantly more likely to spank their infants.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V7N-4ST4CDB-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1030628473&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f1468e19aad3db28dceedd726ec8a880


"African-American children were spanked significantly more frequently than those from white and Mexican-American families"
"Parents who spank are more likely to be younger, less educated, single, and/or depressed and stressed"
"Spanking is most commonly used among parents who were spanked themselves, who live in the South, and/or who identify themselves as conservative Christians."
http://my.babyblog.com/2009/09/child-development-journal-spanking-detrimental-to-children.html
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 132
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:51:32 PM
RE: Msg: 136

Great Scott! A debate where both sides post sources!! A dream come true! (Serious!)

And yum-yum too! (The sources that is) Of course, I do agree "violence spawns violence" as long as we all agree that "violence" doesn't have to be physical.

I would be curious to know which side truly has the majority in terms of "spank = spanker" and "spank = no spanker" and "no spank = spanker" and "no spank = no spank". (This is not a request for some 'proof' just an aside thought.)

Anyway, bravo! If it lowers the IQ or not, well that is still a little fishy to me. Maybe a factor, but I doubt it is the cause. <--My opinion.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 134
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 12:11:32 AM
My brother and I both were very violent little boys.

I am not trying to be demeaning or mean spirited here at all.... but I am glad that I got the parents I got and not some of you all...

Or my brother and I both would probably be very bad people right now. Notice I didn't say in prison?

Because fortunately/unfortunately, we were both born very as very intelligent little boys as well.

The only thing I feared and respected was pain. When adults talked at me, not only did I not have any respect for them, but at age 6 I could talk circles around most adults and they would just leave.

I don't think that the caring, sensitive approach works on all children.

That's why ultimately parents should have more rights than they do now. Children are not one, cookie cutter entity. Children are made in all shapes, sizes, and personalities. One approach will not work for every child.

Just my .02.

PS - my little brother was almost never spanked. He tried to kill me the first time when he was 5 or 6.

;)
 That Guy Him
Joined: 8/5/2009
Msg: 136
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 4:57:36 AM
People may think spanking teaches a child to be violent. On the other hand it also teaches children about violence. If someone who isn't supposed to hurt you can, what is someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about you going to do if you piss them off?

I'm reminded of an incident 18 years ago. A friend and I were driving around town when we happened upon a couple of kids... about 10 y/o or so. They were standing on the side of the road throwing snowballs at cars that passed by. Obviously I found this out when 2 snowballs hit my car. Well, I pulled over and my friend and I got out. These kids thought they were rather intelligent as they smugly shouted at us, as they stood there in defiance, "You can't touch us! We're minors!" I looked at my buddy and we laughed. I said to them, "I'm 16... he's 14. That makes us minors too!" Their smug looks quickly changed to looks of fear as we proceeded to shove their faces in the snowbank they were using to make their snowballs. Then we continued to laugh as they ran home crying to their mommies like good consequence-fearing children should.

Now they too were lucky that my friend and I weren't angrier and more violent. We were content just to do enough to give us a bit of a laugh. Some people aren't looking for just a laugh. Think these kids are properly equipped to deal with those kinds of situations? No... not every child needs to be spanked to learn these lessons. However, some do. Those kids probably would have done well to have a little more fear and a little less invincibility complex. That's not to say their parents never spanked them as I have no idea whether they did or not, but I would probably guess not if they figured they could do whatever they want without fear of physical consequences.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 137
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 7:10:15 AM
With all the other parenting tools out there....I will never for the life of me understand why spanking should remain as one in the box. Ross, you never did answer my question.......what will you say to your daughter when she hits another child because that child did something she didn't like (like take a toy away from her). It will happen, more likely to happen IF you spank her at home btw..... What will you as her parent tell her about hitting?

To say that using physical punishments doesn't teach kids that physical reactions are ok is ridiculous!!!!! It is utterly illogical when you consider that when you spank a toddler, they cannot rationalize that it is ok for Mom/Dad to do but not her. I have seen parents hit their child for hitting them all the time telling the child that hitting is wrong as they hit their child..............insanity!!!

As for the effect on a child's IQ (ability to learn) being affected by spanking....I can see from a development perspective how that correlation could be drawn. If a child is spanked alot and if that is the main way a parent disciplines their child, that child would likely be under more stress than a child whose parent used it sparingly or not at all and used other methods (timeout, removal of privileges, talking, etc...). One demonstrates power and control over a child in a blatant and forceful way, the other methods not as much. When a child (or anyone for that matter) is under stress in a consistent way, the ability to learn/remember/focus is affected negatively.

If you honestly don't think that a child is affected negatively while being spanked, think for a second how you would feel if you were being hit when you did something wrong.....would you be afraid and hurt or not, would you feel you were being respected...would you feel that you were being treated fairly? I wouldn't tolerate it and yet as a parent I have the right to expect my child to be afraid and hurt and put up with it.......nonsense!
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 138
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 7:14:04 AM

what people forget is that chidlren are highly intelligent.. well..most anyway.. and they do know what happens and why certain things happen.. most people just underestmiate a child.


Ross, most children are very manipulative but do not mistake that for an ability to rationalize and predict that if they do A, B will follow.........

Children are NOT stupid, but in their limited ability to rationalize, they listen to their feelings....if a child feels uncomfortable, they withdraw....if a child feels comfortable, they come out of their shell and take risks.

Childhood is the time to make a lot of mistakes....often times, children do things to find out what will happen...it is how they learn...they are rarely trying to be "bad" and punishing them every time they make a mistake could have undesirable results. Would you rather raise a child who was willing and unfraid to try new things or one that is too insecure to do so?
 FalconDear
Joined: 9/7/2009
Msg: 139
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 7:34:17 AM
Hmmm....

We are raising a whole society of p*ssies. Methinks parents who do not spank a child when they are particularly vehement are not raising their kids in the real world.

As sad as it is, we do not live in a world where we can 'talk' and make things better. Half our problem right now is we have too many people who try to talk and make the world better. It just does not work. To those who teach their kids to 'talk', your kids will be the first to be taken advantage of by the kids whose parents taught them to fight back instead of talk back.

In spanking my child, I am leading by example and showing him the there are times when force is necesary. I am teaching that when talking no longer works, it is time for action. Is it any wonder that the UN is trying to get 'non-violence' passed? Their talking to dictators does not work....all a sanction is is a talking and time-out but hasn't stopped N. Korean and Iran from working hard to get the nuke. Now they want to try to force on American parents the value that talking works???

IMHO: I is our duty to teach lessons and to raise children who are able to cope in the real world. I never hit my child but did paddle his butt when he was little for serious things - like running toward the road after being told to stop and look for cars. In my house, I am not afraid to follow up a threat with action. The real world is not a safe place where everyone talks to get along. That is the same virtual world that Sarcozy believes Obama lives in. The real world is harsh. My son knows that at the end of repeated threats and time-outs and talk, that action will follow. I wish our crap leaders would do the same with N. Korea and Iran.

My last rant is I'm so tired of the 'violence is not the answer' crowd. Give me an effing break. Tell that to those murdered in WWII who were killed for their words and difference of opinion, who didn't have the guns or it in them for violence to fight back. You people continue to teach non-violence to your kids and then pray like hell that the world stays safe for them because if it ever gets violent out there, they will be the first to be killed. You will be the ones who took away that 'violent' streak and put the 'lets talk about this' in its place.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 140
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 7:53:46 AM

Methinks parents who do not spank a child when they are particularly vehement are not raising their kids in the real world.


Perhaps there are parents whose children are not particularly vehement to begin with....


You people continue to teach non-violence to your kids and then pray like hell that the world stays safe for them because if it ever gets violent out there, they will be the first to be killed. You will be the ones who took away that 'violent' streak and put the 'lets talk about this' in its place.


When my son was being bullied physically by another child in school, it was me that taught him how to fight back. He knows violence in self-defense is acceptable and he can take care of himself. He also knows that violence is not acceptable....he is never to be the first one to throw the punch. He has been taught to resolve conflicts in a healthy way through yes talking! Does it always work? Most of the time it does for him and most of the time it works well for me also.

This morning when I looked at my cell phone bill, I had a mini-heartattack. I pay for his cell phone and when he got it (over a year ago), I explained to him that he was not to send a lot of text messages because I would be paying $0.15 per text message. Well, last month he received over 300 text messages and sent a bunch. I took the bill to him and showed it to him. He was shocked to realize that all his texting ran his bill up $80.00 over what it normally is....he emptied his wallet and promised to pay the rest telling me he had no idea. He asked how much it would be to add a texting plan to his phone so I called and added it...for $15/month he has unlimited texting and internet usage. HE FOUND THE SOLUTION....why? I've taught my son to think for resolution rather than recrimination. I returned his money to him and told him that he had learned a valuable lesson. I told him when he got a part time job (after he turns 16), his first order of business was to repay the $80.00 to me. Now I could have yelled at him, ranted and raved at him, made threats and smacked him....what would that have accomplished? He would have been mad at me, instead of being angry with himself. He would have learned that his mom can't be rational and doesn't really care about his side of the story......

You can say what you want about the "talking" to our kids but I will say this. As he grew up, we talked alot. When he made a mistake or did something I didn't approve of, we talked about what he did, why he did what he did, how I felt about what he did and how he/I could do things differently in the future. That is precisely how I taught my son to seek solutions rather than recriminations. I explained to him early on that I expected him to make some bad choices because he was a child learning....but I also expected him to LEARN from those bad choices and not to repeat them. He never has.................

If spanking was really that effective, children would learn and not repeat the behaviour. What I have seen first hand (with myself and many other parents who spank) is that the behaviour they are trying to alter takes a long time (or goes underground where they don't see it) to extinguish......
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 141
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:10:45 AM
Eh i guess it depends on what you want in society. Me? I'm glad Patton was spanked. Yet again, while i don't always agree with 8sf8, he's right on this issue, NOT every child is the same. Each responds to different stimuli and you leave it to the parent to decide.

As for each felon being spanked, again, correllation not causation as spag pointed out. Most of our greatest leaders were too, corporal punishment isn't for everyone, but i respect the right of a parent to do what they think is right for THEIR children. WE NEED some violence in this society of ours, don't fool yourselfs.

Look at 8sf, he was spanked, and i'd bet my house that he is former military. Violence directed in a proper manner not only isn't a bad thing, it's NECESSARY that we have these people capable of violence to PROTECT you that aren't. This PC cookie cutter shiny happy people shit isn't the solution. I don't WANT all our kids prozac'd out and singing kumbaya or whatever the hell it is.

This world is inherently violent, spanking doesn't necessarilly create the evils of the world. The greatest generation was spanked, all our WW2 vets, vietnam vets, hell even our desert storm and op iraqi freedom vets probably were.

Spanking isn't for everyone, that doesn't mean it isn't for ANYONE.
 FalconDear
Joined: 9/7/2009
Msg: 142
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:16:52 AM
Yes, as I talk to my son. We reason things through, just as you do with yours. I can gaurantee you that when I spanked my son, he learned knew never to do it again. You can't always reason with a 3 year old who doesn't understand but you can put the threat of force out there. Once you do that, you have to be prepared to follow it up.

I have seen children from lefty loonie houses where violence wasn't the answer. They had free reign and did what they wanted to do. They smoked and partied and talked and talked a little more. They weren't 'on the grid' and were quite content to live their free loving ways. It's not the way I was raised. The difference is I am not out here trying to force their parents to get a job or to stop smoking or to perhaps, do a little less talking and more action??? We all have seen failures on both sides of this coin. Those who spank too much and those who don't spank enough.

I would say that you, Its, and I have very similiar child rearing ways. We actually agree in how we raise kids, not the why behind how we raise them. You don't spank to teach your son other ways. I spank to teach other ways. It is the dicotomy of life. Two sides to every coin. You son is no better off for your way of parenting than mine because they both learned to be thinking adults and responsible. How they got there doesn't matter, it is just that they arrived.

People are not cookie cutter and I recognize that each child needs different things. Perhaps if more people felt that way, we wouldn't have the need to try to tell other people how to raise their kids.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 143
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:33:18 AM
Colorado, I think we are discussing the extremes of the pendulum of parenting styles....the abusers and the losers. As with most extremes, neither is good.

I will never buy into the argument that "some kids" need to be spanked to learn....anymore than I could ever buy into the argument that not taking an active role in teaching your children is healthy for some kids. I have seen for myself those kids and they are out of control little heathens. I'm a parent, I'm not the friend of my children.....
 FalconDear
Joined: 9/7/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:48:25 AM
I'm a parent, I'm not the friend of my children.....


As I am. The extremes, though, are why stupid laws are written and passed.

I had someone tell me once that I was the problem in her life because I expected out of her more parenting than she was giving. She told me that in my world view, a child deserves more time and attention and that while my son clearly was not neglected, neither was hers. I just spent more time on my son than she did hers...but less time doesn't mean neglected - just less time. I had to agree with her. She was right and I was wrong. I was forcing my ideas of parenting on her and not recognizing that less care doesn't equate to neglect.... It is the same way with this topic. Spanking doesn't equate to abuse, it is just a parenting tool. Some parents need it occasionally and others, never need it. On the extremes are those who neither give it or always give it. Both extremes, in my view, are wrong.

Off topic: What came from talking to that woman was it made me realize that there is a level of care that all children need. Below that care and the child cannot function but at that care level and above, the child thrives. But how much above that threshhold does a child need? Does more care for that child mean the child becomes more successful? I don't know. Perhaps too much makes the children self-centered and never able to be self sufficient? I'm not sure. Either way, parenting does not come with a manual and outside of normal care concerns, it should be left up to the parent to decide what works.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 145
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 9:07:16 AM

As I am. The extremes, though, are why stupid laws are written and passed.


I can see your argument there. Unfortunately, when it comes to how those laws are applied, too often "abusers" are allowed to keep on abusing. All a parent who gets caught abusing their child has to do is challenge the law and the law (at least here in Canada) is so subjective that it is really a coin-toss. Our child-protective services don't have that much power and are mandated to work with the parents to keep the child in the family unit. I used to think they were all powerful and in the extremest of cases, they so have the power to remove the child. It is those "at risk" children whose abuse hasn't gotten "that bad" yet who fall through the cracks.

When you described earlier how you apply corporal punishment, I have to admit that I didn't see anything particularly disturbing about it because you clearly were not angry when you did it. Even though I don't agree with its use, I can contend that if you are not angry when you do it, you are far less likely to actually hurt your child. I doubt that is the case in majority of instances though.....children are hit when their parent is angry/frustrated and unable to really guage how hard they just struck their child.

A mark that disappears after 30 minutes was referenced in terms of what is acceptable.....that disturbed me.

To each his own....but remember the children of others eventually can impact on your life. We are not islands unto our own...we are part of a society. When children are not raised well, we all suffer the consequences (through crime/punishment, social programs like welfare (sense of entitlement), increased medical costs (addictions), etc....)
 FalconDear
Joined: 9/7/2009
Msg: 146
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 9:25:28 AM

To each his own....but remember the children of others eventually can impact on your life. We are not islands unto our own...we are part of a society. When children are not raised well, we all suffer the consequences (through crime/punishment, social programs like welfare (sense of entitlement), increased medical costs (addictions), etc....)


Only in a socialist country do we all suffer the consequences. In a world where we expect the Government to take care of all of needs, do we have to worry about what our neighbor is doing. This is the fear we have down here in America right now with our Socialist in Chief. Without a welfare state, the responsibility falls on the individual to do the right thing and not the nanny state to enforce the most cost effective thing.

This difference is a difference from our very fabric of who we are. You are a statist who feels it is up to the Government to dictate life. I am a meritocrat and feel that a society is better off expecting individual to succeed than paying them for bad behavior, which welfare programs do.

You see the greater problem of abuse as something the State has to fix, whereas I see it as an individual issue that the person has to fix. We have different world views. You will never agree with mine and I will never agree with yours. But that doesn't mean that we can't both be good parents.
 Consigliori
Joined: 1/7/2008
Msg: 147
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 9:31:23 AM

Besides, if you hit your kids, you HAVE raised a violent hand, now haven't you?


I suppose that’s true in a sense. I wonder how you’d define “violence”? People make forceful contact with other people for many reasons - socially or in athletic venues for instance. You could even go so far as to say that, at least in some instances, the forceful contact is unwanted (the definition of assault and battery) - a tackle in football for instance - compelling the elderly or mentally handicapped to submit to hygienic or health measures - making a two-year old go to bed by carrying him to bed.

If one assumes a parent is without authority to punish a child by any means that would not be acceptable on a competent adult who lived in their home - a spouse for instance, you could say with reasonable certainty that ALL parents have engaged in civil misconduct or criminal behavior when raising children:

Parents who give children time-outs are ‘falsely imprisoning’ them.
Parents who dress children who would prefer not to be dressed are committing battery.
Parents who take toys from children are depriving them of their property rights.

You could even go further and say that non-spanking parents who make their children sit in the corner are subjecting them to sensory deprivation - a form of torture. Parents who take food away because a child chooses to throw some of it on the floor are depriving their children of sustenance.

What can we say? Parents are tyrants.

I like to think I’m a benevolent dictator.
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 148
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 10:19:54 AM

Only in a socialist country do we all suffer the consequences.


I'm not sure that the average thief, rapist, murderer, child molester cares if the form of government in the country they live is socialist or not. Our welfare system is probably quite a lot stricter than many of yours (Work for welfare exists here...people aren't encouraged/allowed to sit on their asses and do nothing). Medical coverage here is Universal and I truly believe that the benefits of having such a system largely outweigh the disadvantages. I'm not American, I'm Canadian btw....that perhaps makes a big difference in our perspective on society and the responsibilities we have towards each other.

When I see poverty in a country as developed as ours are...it saddens me. It is fine to sit in judgement and call people lazy but before you can judge them that way, you need to understand what happened to them. The public education system perhaps in the inner cities is not as good as it is in the middle to upper class areas of your cities or mine. What was the main reason for the creation of these inner cities in the states anyway? Oh yeah....segregation. We don't have those problems here....with the exception of Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, our major cities are developed to put low and middle income housing together...the only ones who are segregated are the very rich (qu'elle surprise). Our government is trying to find solutions to what has happened in Toronto Vancouver and Montreal so as to avoid the issues you Americans have in many if not all your inner cities.

There will always be class systems...there have always been class systems. That doesn't mean you or I have the right to look down our noses at anyone. I am definately not a capitalist as I believe that capitalism only enables the rich to retain and grow what they have at the expense of those without the resources or education to fight back. Shoot me...I'm more of a socialist (not to be confused with a communist btw). I don't believe in handouts...I believe in giving a hand up or providing opportunities for EVERYONE to live a decent life. Sadly if that responsibility is left in the hands of individuals, the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Government should take responsibility for providing opportunities by ensuring things like Labour Laws and Human Rights are respected by individuals across the board. I don't see why the Government shouldn't extend the same basic human rights afforded to adults to children.
 FalconDear
Joined: 9/7/2009
Msg: 149
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 10:51:49 AM

I don't see why the Government shouldn't extend the same basic human rights afforded to adults to children.


because generally the same people who want to extend human rights to all children are the same people who see nothing wrong with killing a child refused the right to be born (ie. abortion). If a government refuses to step in on the behalf of children refused the right to be born by their mothers, they have no right to dictate how a child is treated after it is born. A government who allows the killing of unborn children has no moral right to decide how a living child should be treated. They give up that right by allowing the murder of the unborn.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 150
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 11:13:17 AM

I don't see why the Government shouldn't extend the same basic human rights afforded to adults to children.


Which basic rights? Is it ok for your 9 year old to have consensual sex with another 9 year old? Drink? Drive? Vote? Get a job? Get married?

"Rights" have responsibilities. Responsibilities children can not possibly be expected to uphold. Educating yourself to vote for example. Children are CHILDREN. Thats why they don't have all the human rights, they aren't ready.

You go ass backwards and allow them to sue you in canada for example because dad grounded his daughter and wouldn't let her go on a school field trip, little girl sues and WINS in court. Amazing. Parents are responsible for the actions of their children legally as well, because children know not what they do.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 151
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 11:20:09 AM
Spanking is for the poor:

The remote dog training collar is one of the most effective, simplest and most humane training aids. The remote dog training collar is placed on a dog`s neck, allows a trainer to deliver small static shocks* (occasionally referred to as shock collars) of varying strength by remote control. The correction the dog gets from the remote dog training collar is no different than walking on the carpet and touching your friend. The benefits of working with a remote dog training collar is the trainer can immediately correct a dog`s mistakes at a distance far greater than leash training allows.

Replace the word dog with the word kid and you will soon understand why there is no reason to ever spank your kids again. Taser guns for the teen years work well too. Peace out.
 TAKEN fab-mom
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 152
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/1/2009 12:58:49 PM
^^^^^ Do those come in toddler sizes?
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