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 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 189
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?Page 6 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)
(itsallinthesoul) So what do you think? If you spank, does this latest study change your thinking about spanking?


Not in the least. There's been a recent (well, relatively recent) tendency for people to worry n' fuss over things like that; my gut instinct tells me that this "study" is full of the stuff that comes out the south end of a north-heading bull...


(QBS) Seems to be a false dichotomy going on in this forum; just because one does not spank children does NOT mean that those children who are raised with other, gentler & loving, methods of discipline are going to grow up to be raging psycho's & criminals.


Another false dichotomy that I've observed is, if a parent believes in spanking, he/she ALSO believes in hauling out a nail-studded 2x4 and whaling away on his/her children. Come on: MOST people possess more common sense, and can tell the difference between a spanking and a beating, than they are given credit for. The discussion is also NOT moved forward by silly and polarizing (not to mention nonsensical) statements like, "Spanking does for a childs development, what wife beating does for a marriage."

Arlo...
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 190
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 3:39:54 PM
So very well expressed, ConsciousSoul.
 dad2stay
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 191
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 3:47:39 PM
Everything a person does they do so weighing the benefits against the consequences and generally a persons fear of the consequences is what keeps them honest (feel free to cite any studies that proves this wrong)

Now you seem to be the typical anti spanking candidate. What you fail to realize that a spanking is not a beating and not every misbehavior warrants a spanking

Oh and FYI i had a great child hood as do my own children , I had a great education that allowed me to go into business for myself working with parents and their children, so I do not need you to feel sorry for me or my family we are very rounded and happy

It is not respect that keeps people/kids honest it's the fear of the consequences and it seems that the only thing your truly debating is what those consequences should be and frankly that's just your opinion ad what I am posting is mine

 QueenBeeSweetness
Joined: 9/23/2011
Msg: 192
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 5:14:54 PM

It is not respect that keeps people/kids honest it's the fear of the consequences


Whaaaaaat? Not all people live in a fear based world. I do whatever i do because they ar the choices i make that would be benficial for myself & family, not because i "fear consequences".

Personally, i think people who can only control their childrens behavior via hitting, are the ones that either have poor parenting skills, very wild misbehaved children, or both. Sitting there claiming that non spanked kids will grow up to be derelict criminals, while your children are running around so wild hat they need to be hit to stop them, while the non spankers kids are happily being good as gold, is a bit silly.
If the only way you can make a child behave is by spanking them, there is a serious problem with the parent & child.

My children are not hit, & they are good children. Often, giving them a hug & sitting down & talking with them sternly yet lovingly, gets to the root of whatever their ussue ie, on the once in a while occasions that they act a fool.
 dad2stay
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 193
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 5:36:08 PM
Of course you are entitled to your opinion however,

Spanking is not hitting, punching, or beating

Fear: you can call it whatever you like but ultimately it is not wanting to face the consequences of poor choices or actions for example, I fear going to jail if i rob this bank, I fear getting a spanking if i steal mommy's wine, I fear getting fired if i punch my boss, I fear loosing my wife if i cheat on her, I fear getting a ticket if i do 90- in a 30 zone, I fear death so i won jump off a building, etc, etc, etc

As for you saying spanked kids are bad and non spanked kids are good as gold your funny

My children are wonderful and guess what??? On occasion I have spanked them and usually they do not repeat what they were spanked for doing and guess what I also tried other methods of punishment before going to that consequence..wow

Just because it is not right for you does not mean its wrong for everyone else
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 194
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 6:11:45 PM

I fear going to jail if i rob this bank


Really…so if you didn’t fear going to jail you’d rob a bank??

So you’re saying you have no moral compass or self discipline…the only reason you don’t do bad things is because you fear the consequences.

Fear is NOT respect. People (including kids!) do not respect what they fear.

People do not earn respect by instilling fear in others.
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 195
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 6:23:21 PM

So very well expressed, ConsciousSoul.


For someone that has never been a parent, it's almost rocket science isn't it????

OT, don't give a rat's bum on "studies, surveys" or any other stat that somebody comes up with. Stats are for those that like using them, not reality.




Whaaaaaat? Not all people live in a fear based world. I do whatever i do because they ar the choices i make that would be benficial for myself & family, not because i "fear consequences".


I'm betting your one that follows the "letter of the law"????? No????


Now,,,,,everybody go sit in the corner and find your centre pretty please........
 dad2stay
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 196
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 6:40:49 PM
fleuron

Really…so if you didn’t fear going to jail you’d rob a bank??

If there were no consequences for our actions yes many people would do many things they are unwilling to do now



So you’re saying you have no moral compass or self discipline…the only reason you don’t do bad things is because you fear the consequences.


Morals: a passage pointing out usually in conclusion the lesson to be drawn from a story

lesson = consequence for an action

The only reason ANYONE chooses not to do bad things is fear of the consequences, having a consequence is what make it a bad thing



Fear is NOT respect. People (including kids!) do not respect what they fear. People do not earn respect by instilling fear in others.


I am sorry but there is a correlation between fear and respect

Either way a spanking is just a consequence for an action, not all actions require a spanking and not all people would benefit or be harmed by a spanking, what works for you may not work for someone else.

Your job as a parent is to teach your child to fear and respect the consequences of their actions how you come to that is up to you
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 197
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 6:41:36 PM
So very well expressed, ConsciousSoul.

For someone that has never been a parent, it's almost rocket science isn't it????


I am a parent. Does that validate my comment to ConsciousSoul?

And if ConsciousSoul is not a parent, it changes nothing about my comment to him. He makes sense.

dad2stay, I can't respond to you anymore. I'm sorry I ever did.
 dad2stay
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 198
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/1/2011 6:56:30 PM
Why because I choose to do something differently than you would?

Because I am happy with the results?

I respect you choose a different route in parenting than I would but that does not make me a bad parent because I believe differently

All you have posted is opinion, I post logic, no consequence = chaos, at times I feel a spanking is a justifiable consequence and my children respect me for it as they do not repeat that action. Result is my method worked FOR MY KIDS
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 199
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/2/2011 7:22:22 AM

fear getting killed = wont walk around half naked in the ghetto yelling your pocket is full of hundreds


(CS) Funny enough, I don't walk around half naked in ANY neighborhood yelling my pockets are full of hundreds, even if the place was completely safe. Maybe it has to do with self-restraint and self-discipline, rather than fear?


Funny enough, those qualities that I've bolded don't come about in a vacuum. They're learned.


(CS) The very way you see the world - full of egotistic self-centered person (sic)...


I don't get on well with dad2stay, but I can see his point, without the patronising condescension you speak with. *MOST* people happen to be exactly that: egocentric and self-centered. Not *EVERYONE* has the elevated consciousness that you apparently (think you) do, and different people respond to different stimuli. While my world has Mahatma Gandhi in it, it *ALSO* has Ted Bundy in it. That's not "fear"; it's going through life aware that there are highs and lows.




(dad2stay) It is not respect that keeps people/kids honest it's the fear of the consequences


(QBS) Whaaaaaat? Not all people live in a fear based world.


1. Being prudent, and exercising good judgement, is not the same thing as living in a
"fear-based world".
2. Anyone who claims, or implies, that they live their ENTIRE LIVES without prudent forethought (what the hysterical mob in this discussion would call "fear") is nothing other than a liar.


(CS) There are so many studies that proves this wrong I wouldn't even know where to start.


Well, then, to paraphrase Charles Dickens, "The (studies) (are) an ass!" A smart, discerning person, one who is able to use his/her head for more than a hat-rack, knows when a study reflects real life, and when it's a load of crap.

Arlo...
 dad2stay
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 200
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/2/2011 8:10:35 AM
ConsciousSoul


the human brain isn't even capable of deceit before 5-7 years old.


It is very obvious that not only do you not have any kids but you have not spent much if any time around them contrary to your claims otherwise.

As a person who works with families for a living which includes countless children under 7 I have to tell you from over 20 years working hands on experience you are wrong

Children and even toddlers, lie, sneak and steal as it is human nature to do so, our upbringing, our morals our teachings throughout life help us to determine right from wrong and then choose based on those experienced how to proceed

After all it is society that determines what is right and what is wrong not human nature, Human nature is to do what feels good and what makes us happy


At which exact moment does it stop to be "spanking" and does it start to be "beating" ?


I am not qualified to define this term but the law and society states a spanking is an open hand slap on the buttocks and beating is an act of striking with repeated blows so as to injure or damage

So a slap on the butt in an attempt to teach a lesson to a child is not the same as repeated aggressive blows to the body or face in an attempt to express anger or spite



Again, I feel very sorry for someone who lives in such a terribly, dry and desolate world of egotistic people. I wish I could help you see the beauty and the genuine, simple yet powerful relationship that are built out of trust and ethics. They exists all around you, if only you could see them.


Why would you feel sorry for someone who is happy with their life and their children's life? Why would you assume I do not find beauty and happiness in every day situations simply because I chose a different path than you would in raising my children (YES MY CHILDREN)?

I have over 20 years experience working with hundreds of families and their children and I have 18 year experience raising my own kids I am very open minded adn can appreciate contrary points of view

Unlike some I would not judge you simply because you choose to do something differently than I would, My question is why do you feel it necessary to judge those like me for disagreeing with you?

Your telling me not to spank or raise my children the way I see fit. I never once implied you should spank and go against what may some day be your parenting methods
 dad2stay
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 201
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/2/2011 10:31:15 AM

Around 5 years old the brain starts to develop in a way that allows deceit

Funny your last post you said 7 and that children were incapable of deceipt


It's not a legal question. It's a moral question.

I disagree morals is what dictates laws to be, otherwise what is the point of laws but to enforce the majority's morals?


which EXACT point is it no longer spanking

When it ceases to be an open hand smack on a but for the sake of eduction and starts to be a release for the spankers aggressions


what about a slap on the face? A slap with a belt?

No sir that is abuse morally and legally


Children don't learn because of spanking

I beg to differ, my children and many children i have met or had parents speak about have learned from the punishment known as spanking, fear of the consequence prevents further repeats of punishable action


I will NEVER agree with a spanker's "right" to do this.

And sir that is your right to believe any way you wish in accordance to your local laws,


I know it's not what you want to hear and I perfectly know you will dismiss it. But it's the truth.

See that's where your not understanding it is not the truth it is your personal opinion and your opinion does not mean truth

I am not looking for any right or wrong answer, I just want you to understand that you have no more right to tell me not to spank than I do to tell you you should, your sense of morals do not mean anything to anyone but you and as long as the parent follows the local laws then frankly it is none of your business

What works for you may not work for someone else

When I was a kid I swore Id never raise my kids the way my parents raised me (even though I had a happy child hood) but what I realized later in life when I became a parent is there is a reason my parents did what they did the way they did. They like me exhausted every other alternative and some of my actions require more than a verbal lashing

One last thing, you are 38, longest relationship is just 4 years long, YOU HAVE NO KIDS so when you do, when you have a child for 24/7 and it is your job to teach and discipline then your opinions will hold more weight as you will have experience to back it up

I work with kids and their families for a living and I feel it is my experience as a father of multiple children for the past 18 years that lends credibility to my opinions and methodology at work, And unlike many I understand that my way is not the only way and I can respect that







 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 202
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 11/2/2011 10:51:24 AM
(CS) what about the psychological damage?


Yes, what about it? Any time a situation unfolds, and gives a person results that he doesn't like, you can claim that it's "psychologically damaging". At what EXACT p0int does failure to complete a task/encountering less-than-desirable consequences stop being a learning point, and become "psychological damage"?

I doubt you are what you claim to be.


(dad2stay) I am not qualified to define this term but the law and society states a spanking is an open hand slap on the buttocks and beating is an act of striking with repeated blows so as to injure or damage


Dad2stay: don't fall into the trap of trying to define terms for the touchy-feely crowd. No matter what you come up with, it'll never satisfy them. They're either idiots, and UNABLE to understand, or they're being disingenuous, and merely PRETENDING not to understand, for their own amoral amusement.

Arlo...
 Elle_777
Joined: 12/3/2012
Msg: 203
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 12/15/2012 1:31:48 PM
I don't believe in spanking except in extreme circumstances where a point has to be made. Never have I struck my children in "fear or anger" as someone else said, nor has it ever been a "reaction" in "frustration". When I choose to spank, it is because the punishment should fit the crime and it is ALWAYS a controlled swat to the behind, never intentional of inflicting actual pain, but to grab attention and keep it when something very, very wrong has been done. Again, it's only used in the most extreme cases, such as an incident that happened not too long ago: My 5 year old and 4 year old daughters are supposed to be going to sleep, yet they are playing around, even after several times of telling them to knock it off or they would lose next-day privileges (morning/afternoon TV shows, Saturday afternoon playground fun, evening arts and crafts, after-dinner dessert, etc.) and would gain extra chores instead (helping load and unload the dishwasher, folding and putting away laundry, wiping down baseboards around the house...things a 4 and 5 year old are capable of). A few minutes later, my 4 year old is screaming bloody murder. I rush into the room to find her covered in blood. While cleaning her up, I get the info from my 5 year old who says they were playing and got too rough. Her head slammed into my 4 year old's nose. So, after taking care of my 4 year old, setting her up to stop the blood flow, comfortable watching a late night show, I get to business with my 5 year old. I gather more information, tell her what she did wrong and why it was wrong. To make a point, I tell her straight away that because she did not obey me, her sister got hurt badly, so she must feel a bit of that pain in order to learn her lesson, and I was going to spank her. I got out my paddle and swatted her bottom twice, in a controlled manner, not intending to inflict actual pain, but rather a stinging sensation, enough to make my point. The lesson continues...I ask her what she did to deserve a spanking, and she tells me that because she didn't obey me (I tell her that her sister looks up to her and if she disobeys me, her sister will, too), her sister got hurt and is bleeding. She tells me it's not fair for her sister to get a painful "punishment" without her also receiving some of it. The real learning comes from the fact that I revoked ALL of their Saturday privileges, except, instead of going to the playground, I took them to a walking/running trail to get some exercise and fresh air. I don't like denying them their body's needs, so I just altered it into a less fun way for young ones to get exercise. And I also gave them extra chores, as stated above, in place of the fun things we would have done. The next night, they went to sleep with no problems. And every night since then, I only have to tell them once or twice to keep to themselves, mostly my 4 year old trying to bother her older sister, who is trying to ignore her, before they fall asleep. Therefore, yes, I could have gone without the spanking, but I believe it taught her more about obeying than anything, as I hear her telling her sister every now and then, "No, I can't do that, because if I do that, you will, too, and it will get us both in trouble." I've revoked privileges and added chores many times before and, although it works for certain situations, never has it instilled anything like this in her mind. I believe I would still be having to answer to these same problems if I hadn't spanked her. So, no...I think this study is based on some very bogus ideas and does NOT include every parent who spanks or every child who gets spanked. I believe spanking should be utilized in only the most necessary of cases, not for any various wrongdoing, regardless of what it is.
 freshstartbraveheart
Joined: 11/9/2012
Msg: 204
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 12/15/2012 9:58:39 PM
I think the study shows correlation and not causation in the relationship between spanking and I.Q. scores.

I'm not against spanking if used properly but I don't spank my own kids. It can be effective for some children but not all. I also don't think all situations warrant a spanking, in fact, most do not. Moreover, there are many parents that shouldn't spank at all. No pun intended but especially if done out of anger, it can get out of hand and cross over into abusive territory. It's one tool out of many in any parent's "tool-kit" but I do think other forms of discipline should be used before resorting to spanking. It's the end of the line really as far as discipline goes so if you're doing it every time your kid acts up, a time out, stern look, simple talking to or loss of privilege isn't going to cut it after a while.

No matter what kind of approach you take to discipline, I think, you should use common sense and look at the other reasons a kid might be acting a certain way. Not all misbehavior needs to be punished. If the kid is over-tired, over-stimulated, has had a lot of bad things going on like their parents' divorce, death of a parent or loved one etc., not enough attention, changing schools, moving, changes in routine etc. then they could just be reacting to that. I think it's good to look at what else is going on before jumping the gun and making the kid out to be bad and punishing them for it.

Personally, my oldest has always worked hard for praise and encouragement. He eats it up. If I say he did a good job on X, he'll do X over and over again so that he can keep hearing how good of a job he did. I try to give praise and encouragement whenever I catch him doing something good because he'll do a lot of good things vs. doing a lot of bad things in order to get the positive reinforcement over the negative attention. If he acts up, time-outs have always worked to turn his behavior around and talking to him afterwards also drives the point home. He's older now so I think he has maybe 3 time-outs a year tops as he's pretty well behaved and listens well. My youngest is too young to misbehave at all at this point but when he does, I'll be trying a lot of different things before thinking about spanking.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 205
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 12/16/2012 6:39:48 PM

The fact that they're doing something wrong might mean they weren't all that smart to begin with.


I don't mean to be rude, but I pray to God that you have no children!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 206
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 12/16/2012 6:44:55 PM
So nice to see you back, CS!!

I have posted on similar topics & don't really desire to be redundant, but let's face it, spanking is for the benefit of the spanker, not the one being spanked. Nothing is actually taught by being physically "disciplined", it simply stops a behavior at the particular moment & relieves the distress brought about by such behavior. It is nothing more than a "quick fix" & possibly an ego booster for the parent desparately in need of control & deficient in skills. It needn't be psychologically damaging long term, but it isn't parenting, nor is it educational.
 Xray86
Joined: 2/2/2012
Msg: 207
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 12/28/2012 8:50:05 PM
We are clearly not talking about the same thing. All these discussions about the validity of spanking ignores a fundamental point: what is it we're actually talking about? Are we talking about spanking or are we talking about physical abuse? They are not the same and never will be. I have a very hard time believing that a kid is traumatized and develops a psychosis from being hit once or twice on the butt his entire childhood. If a kid is that weak then they should not even be alive. Life is not a freaking five and under cartoon where retardedness of the highest caliber is the norm. Kids were much stronger in old days than many "adults" of today. I've been spanked a few times in my childhood and I'm not a raving psychopath because of it. All these studies are seriously flawed because they don't account for variables. You need a balance of corporal discipline and teaching for a kid to be successful in life. At least for unruly ones. I was never a whiner or an attention whore as a kid. By nature I was already pretty disciplined anyways. If I had kids, I most likely wouldn't need to apply corporal punishment because I have full confidence in my ability to raise and lead. I would only have to use it in extreme cases where talking is not the answer. Would I spank my kid because they accidentally spilled something? No. Would I spank my kid if they chased someone with a butcher knife for fun? You bet and I would string them on a tree and leave them for twenty four hours. No parent ideally wants to spank their kids but it's expected for them to do something if talking isn't getting through to the kid. This UN charter or whatever is just some New Age/liberal bullcrap to infringe on the rights of others in the name of control. How would you even monitor what parents are spanking their kids? Have the school nurses examine kids at school? This is no different than nullifying fathers' parental rights or banning and confiscating people's weaponry.
 spot4username
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 208
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 12/28/2012 10:56:23 PM
I never raised a hand to my children. If a person isn't bright enough to teach a child without causing them pain that person should not be a parent.
 40Golfer
Joined: 5/10/2011
Msg: 209
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/1/2013 8:04:14 AM
I don't spank my kid anyways so this is not really relevant. I am a strong parent, my kid is a sharp kid and between us we have it figured out, at leats until he hits his teens!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 210
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/2/2013 9:11:30 PM

I was spanked when I was a child. I learned not to put my finger in a power outlet, not to threaten people with a table knife, and not to take things from my neighbor's home without permission. And those are just a few I remember.


Is there no other way that you might have learned not to put your finger in an outlet or not to wield a knife? If teaching a child how to abide by the rules of society entails your tears, I do believe that there is something amiss. After all, there are many of us who taught their children those same things without ever raising a hand. How sad for you.
 Xray86
Joined: 2/2/2012
Msg: 211
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/2/2013 9:27:17 PM

Is there no other way that you might have learned not to put your finger in an outlet or not to wield a knife? If teaching a child how to abide by the rules of society entails your tears, I do believe that there is something amiss. After all, there are many of us who taught their children those same things without ever raising a hand. How sad for you.


Lay off, you. You don't know how he was as a kid. What works for some kids doesn't work for others. I was rarely spanked because I had the mental aptitude and a fitting personality to recognize there's a reason why someone said, "Don't do it." I don't even remember why I was spanked except for once and that was because I was crying like a punk and accidentally broke stuff doing it. And I do not have any trauma or psychosis for being swatted on the butt. A person is weak if they can't handle that happening once or twice in their lifetime. I have a relative who's the type to completely ignore anyone tells the person and even works to hurt or complicate things for everyone else. That person was never spanked. Everyone is different, learns differently, and execute things differently. If the person is a stand-up citizen by the time they're an adult, who cares how they get that way? And no one split hairs with me, I'm fully aware of exceptions for every rule.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 212
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/2/2013 9:37:45 PM
How he was as a kid is of no consequence. Whether or not his parent(s) even tried other methods is. Please reread my post. Furthermore, how do you know that the reason you were only spanked rarely isn't due to the fact that only rarely did your own parents have a day bad enough to not allow them to find other means of teaching proper behavior? You approach my words as if they intend to bully, when my intention was only to provoke thought. The reality is that, whether or not one "successfully" argues that spanking is/was effective, it is not necessary to teach appropriate behavior. imo, it is the lazy and/or frustrated parent's quick fix, means of getting their way or of getting their point across. No benefit to the child & no lasting benefit to the adult either. One does not suppose exceptions without even an attempt at following the rule, so to speak. Do you really believe that your relative would posess a different personality had they been struck by a parent? How odd! One's strength is not measured by one's ability to "take a hit", and I hardly pity the one who has never encountered violence of any sort & to any degree by those whom they look to for guidance, support & love.
 Xray86
Joined: 2/2/2012
Msg: 213
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/3/2013 2:05:49 AM
Well that's the problem. People arguing against spanking are using a one-sided argument. Here's what's suppose to happen; a kid acts up, parent firmly tell them to stop. Kid continues to act the same, threaten punishment of some sort. Kid still acts the same, then corporal punishment or physically removing the kid from the environment is to be done. Obviously spanking isn't the only answer. You have to throw in a moral or something otherwise it's not effective. People who spank their kids are not to be assumed that they are unintelligent, unsophisticated, lazy, or having a bad day. Afterall, there is a clear difference between a swat on the butt and a punch to the gut. If a kid is going absolutely bonkers in a store for half an hour and the mother is trying to calm or appease him the whole time, is she a poor parent if she had enough and swatted him on the butt and removed him from the store? I would applaud her. If a kid is acting so crazy that talking isn't getting through, what are you to do? Keep talking?? There is no excuse why any kid gets to that point but what happens when they do? I have long memories so I can tell people how many times on one hand that I've been spanked. And that was a last resort for the few times I did go nuts. As for my relative, talking was such an effective method that the person does anything anyways on impulse. Even going so far as to manipulate and ruin people. But yeah talking is THE only answer because it's so effective.
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