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 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 214
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?Page 7 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)
I am curious as to whether you would applaud the mother for removing the child without the swat, not to mention that attempting to "apppease" a child in the throes of a tantrum is fruitless & equally fails as educational. In reality the scenario plays out, more often than not, as a parent threatening a child with removal (of a privilege, from the store, whatever), not following through, than lashing out physically in frustration resulting from their own failure to follow through appropriately. What exactly makes you think that adding a "swat" to the formula actually furthers education for a child?

No one is saying that talking is the only answer. Talking is necessary in order to teach, and I hardly think it fair to suggest that your relative would be any different had they been hit. Perhaps consequences related to offenses may have been in order.

I, for one, am NOT saying that a swat is necessarily abusive, but I am stating that is is NEVER necessary, nor is it effective, as far as teaching a child proper behavior. Physical actions towards a child are nothing more than an outlet for a parent; perhaps a means of gaining control or stopping a particular behavior at that moment, but never a means of relaying appropriate behavior for any situation. Nor are they disciplinary, by definition of the word, which, btw, includes the ability to behave in a calm & controlled manner even in stressful situations. Since children learn best by modeling (regardless of choice of teaching methods), that is particularly noteworthy.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 215
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/3/2013 11:01:12 PM

I, for one, am NOT saying that a swat is necessarily abusive, but I am stating that is is NEVER necessary, nor is it effective, as far as teaching a child proper behavior. Physical actions towards a child are nothing more than an outlet for a parent; perhaps a means of gaining control or stopping a particular behavior at that moment, but never a means of relaying appropriate behavior for any situation.


Stopping a behaviour....so per your own comment...it controls or stops a particular behaviour...be it a moment or for longer periods of time.

I had a parent who thought much along your way of thinking. I had teachers who also thought in the same manner.

Rules were made to be broken...boundaries were made to be bent or to be twisted and pushed to see how far you could expand the supposed line in the ground.
 Xray86
Joined: 2/2/2012
Msg: 216
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/4/2013 1:34:06 AM
Alright, so why is it that kids who's only discipline was verbal wind up being irresponsible or have no sense of consequence most of the time? And why is it that people who were spanked (once in a blue moon, not daily) are normal people? Are people on this thread really going to put down the parents who did spank as inferior? Basically my parents SHOULD have found another way versus spanking me like four times total in my entire childhood? What are we even arguing here? Like I said previously, are we talking about spanking, or are we talking about abuse? Spanking a kid like once in a year or two or three does not qualify as abuse. If so, then everyone born prior to 1970 should be labeled as abusers and jailed. Not naming people here but this is something I've noticed on this argument in other media. A lot of people who say spanking is bad are so haughty and denigrate those that do as "classless" or "unintelligent." Meanwhile they claim kids who aren't spanked are so much superior. I've met these kids and I want to strangle their parents for not disciplining them properly. These kids are as haughty as their parents and have no sense of consequence. And like I said before, spanking is a last resort and it shouldn't be scoffed at. It should be used as one of several means of discipline. And no one answered how parents are to be monitored if spanking becomes illegal. A swat on the butt is not the same as a black eye or missing teeth. Not even close.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 217
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/4/2013 6:27:15 PM
Stopping a behaviour....so per your own comment...it controls or stops a particular behaviour...be it a moment or for longer periods of time.

I had a parent who thought much along your way of thinking. I had teachers who also thought in the same manner.

Rules were made to be broken...boundaries were made to be bent or to be twisted and pushed to see how far you could expand the supposed line in the ground.


Your point? Stopping a behavior or gaining momentary control is not teaching acceptable behavior. Agreed, many parents do believe my statement, but they stop before any actual education begins. Rules and boundaries are NOT meant to be broken or crossed, they are meant to be adhered to so that one can learn to get along in society. That children test them is no reason to digress from appropriate teaching methods. You can beat a child with a stick, counting each blow whilst doing so, but the method is a poor one for teaching math.


Alright, so why is it that kids who's only discipline was verbal wind up being irresponsible or have no sense of consequence most of the time?


Why?! Because you compare an extreme with actual discipline, that's why. Mere verbal communication, with no lesson is not an appropriate method to foster education. I never said that actions have no consequences, only that they should be appropriate & effective.


And why is it that people who were spanked (once in a blue moon, not daily) are normal people? Are people on this thread really going to put down the parents who did spank as inferior? Basically my parents SHOULD have found another way versus spanking me like four times total in my entire childhood? What are we even arguing here? Like I said previously, are we talking about spanking, or are we talking about abuse? Spanking a kid like once in a year or two or three does not qualify as abuse. If so, then everyone born prior to 1970 should be labeled as abusers and jailed. Not naming people here but this is something I've noticed on this argument in other media. A lot of people who say spanking is bad are so haughty and denigrate those that do as "classless" or "unintelligent." Meanwhile they claim kids who aren't spanked are so much superior. I've met these kids and I want to strangle their parents for not disciplining them properly. These kids are as haughty as their parents and have no sense of consequence. And like I said before, spanking is a last resort and it shouldn't be scoffed at. It should be used as one of several means of discipline. And no one answered how parents are to be monitored if spanking becomes illegal. A swat on the butt is not the same as a black eye or missing teeth. Not even close.


How ridiculous to blatantly state that those who were spanked are normal. You post as if no one who is "abnormal" (that would include abusers, sexual predators, violent criminals, etc.) has ever been spanked. The reality is almost the polar opposite. Far more likely that those who are unable to function in society were actually beaten. I have stated that there is certainly a difference between a swat & abuse; still, I find spanking unnecessary & certainly not educational. Do you truly believe that a child who has never been hit has no chance of being normal? That is why we are arguing. I don't think your parents were inferior, only human, and like all parents, sometimes made a mistake. Most fortunate for you that they only did so a handful of times. You accuse those who do not condone spanking of being irrational, yet your words above are indicative of outright delusion. People are not superior nor inferior merely because they were or were not spanked, and that is a huge leap for you to make.
btw, the laying of one's hands on another IS illegal, except in self defense. That spanking is not covered specifically indicates that society acknowledges the difference between spanking & abuse.

Most likely, the fact that there is correlation between spanking & low IQ is that those who choose to spank as a means of discipline actually have lower IQ's themselves. As in most instances it is the genetics that play a role & it remains a fact that the less educated do not educate themselves in parenting skills, ie. alternatives to spanking.
 bemylifetimevalentine
Joined: 12/30/2012
Msg: 218
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/5/2013 10:07:24 AM
actually, my child l ikes being spanked (she's too much like her mother!) She will turn around and thank me when I spank her. I have to come up with more creative punishments to fit the crime. If she makes a mess, then she has to clean it up. She soiled her pants because she was distracted with a tv show, then she goes and changes her clothes and the tv is off the rest of the day. Drew on the wall with crayon? Guess who is scrubbing the wall. If she is hitting friends while playing, time out away from play time then until she is ready to apologize and play nice.
 Xray86
Joined: 2/2/2012
Msg: 219
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/5/2013 7:04:00 PM

Most likely, the fact that there is correlation between spanking & low IQ is that those who choose to spank as a means of discipline actually have lower IQ's themselves. As in most instances it is the genetics that play a role & it remains a fact that the less educated do not educate themselves in parenting skills, ie. alternatives to spanking.


Really?


Do you truly believe that a child who has never been hit has no chance of being normal?


That I didn't say. Now maybe I should've clarified on that better. But I did say that spanking should be a last resort. When it does get to that point, I have no issue with it. If a kid never was spanked and is a fully functional person, great! If a kid was spanked and is a fully functional person, great! Every kid is different and respond to things differently. What I'm seeing a lot in my area are parents only talking to their kids, not actually punishing them or whatever. They delude themselves into thinking a kid is just going to stop what he or she is doing and abide to whatever the parent just said. But they don't because they're acting a fool.


btw, the laying of one's hands on another IS illegal, except in self defense. That spanking is not covered specifically indicates that society acknowledges the difference between spanking & abuse.


What are we arguing? Symantics? I know I harp on this but people seem to equate spanking with abuse. Not the same thing. Does this mean I was abused because my parents dare spank me a few times? Does this mean that I lose IQ because a hand made contact with my butt? Logically that means I should be as dumb as a rock because I was stabbed with a pencil, hit in the groin, punched, and everything else associated with violence a male typically endures. And I rarely got into fights or had to defend myself. Also, does this mean that my ex-girlfriends lost IQ because I spanked/swatted/hit them on their behinds? Extreme and comical, but I'm trying to apply this IQ logic to different scenarios. And to reiterate my position, I say spanking is fine when applied appropriately. Abuse is not okay and there is a difference.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 220
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 2:22:31 PM
itsallinthesoul- No, it doesn't.
I only spanked my children as a last resort, but I did occasionally do it.
They are all healthy, well adjusted, WELL BEHAVED children.
Are we really having the spank or don't spank discussion again? Yawn!
Don't believe everything you read on the internet, lol.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 221
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 3:44:37 PM
Spanking kids by paddling them on the butt is NOT abuse in my book - it's a last resort to establish authority with a stubborn child who refuses to listen or cooperate. It's not about inflicting pain - it's about putting kids in a position that they HAVE to pay attention and making them realize there ARE direct consequences for their actions/decisions.

I got rapped on the knuckles with a wooden spoon by Mom once when I was about four - that's all it took. My brothers and I would go to church and want to crawl under the pews - it's always a tough thing to control energetic kids in church, but Mom would open her purse and show us the spoon - that veiled threat - showing us she was still 'packin' heat - was enough.

Nowadays my brothers' families are using the 'Time Out' method of discipline to exude the same lack of control and forcing their attention and establishing authority. It does work, but the effort they have to make of repeatedly physically dragging that screaming kid into the corner of the room or the base of the stairs or wherever 'Time Out' may be - is INFINITELY harder physically than threatening a spanking.

I haven't had any kids yet, but having to drag a six year old into 'Time Out' a few times a day when I'm in my mid-40s and probably with a sore back - I'm thinking that threatening to take off my belt may be better off for MY health in the long run.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 222
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:51:27 PM
Really?


Yes, really. IQ is more attributable to genetics than anything else. Furthermore, whether we like to admit it or not, we are very likely to mimic our own parents' styles. That is why you see the argument "well, my parent hit me..." presented so often.



That I didn't say. Now maybe I should've clarified on that better. But I did say that spanking should be a last resort. When it does get to that point, I have no issue with it. If a kid never was spanked and is a fully functional person, great! If a kid was spanked and is a fully functional person, great! Every kid is different and respond to things differently. What I'm seeing a lot in my area are parents only talking to their kids, not actually punishing them or whatever. They delude themselves into thinking a kid is just going to stop what he or she is doing and abide to whatever the parent just said. But they don't because they're acting a fool.


Agreed, and again, the problem with the behavior of the children you refer to is not that they are not spanked, it is that they are not disciplined, not taught. Spanking doen't accomplish these goals, either.



What are we arguing? Symantics? I know I harp on this but people seem to equate spanking with abuse. Not the same thing. Does this mean I was abused because my parents dare spank me a few times? Does this mean that I lose IQ because a hand made contact with my butt? Logically that means I should be as dumb as a rock because I was stabbed with a pencil, hit in the groin, punched, and everything else associated with violence a male typically endures. And I rarely got into fights or had to defend myself. Also, does this mean that my ex-girlfriends lost IQ because I spanked/swatted/hit them on their behinds? Extreme and comical, but I'm trying to apply this IQ logic to different scenarios. And to reiterate my position, I say spanking is fine when applied appropriately. Abuse is not okay and there is a difference.


We don't disagree that all spanking is not abusive, merely that is not an appropriate form of educating a child as to socially appropriate behavior. Using force, however slight, is a means of control not a teching method. There are other methods of gaining control over your children. Logically, it means no such thing, unless you insist on utilizing skewed logic. I would imaine that your gf's whom you spanked were not so young as to have their IQ's still at the developmental stage, but if they were, then you have REAL problems!


it's about putting kids in a position that they HAVE to pay attention and making them realize there ARE direct consequences for their actions/decisions.


It's about putting YOURSELF in a position where your child pays attention; it's about teaching appropriate consequences for inappropriate behaviors.


I got rapped on the knuckles with a wooden spoon by Mom once when I was about four - that's all it took. My brothers and I would go to church and want to crawl under the pews - it's always a tough thing to control energetic kids in church, but Mom would open her purse and show us the spoon - that veiled threat - showing us she was still 'packin' heat - was enough.


Enough to what? Enough to instill fear, gain control? Exactly. Did you learn how to behave appropriately in church, from the threat, or did you simply learn that when you saw a spoon you knew to be quiet so as to avoid pain? To be honest, (and I admit, I am far from perfect), I never found it difficult to control my energetic kids in church, and I never carried a spoon.


Nowadays my brothers' families are using the 'Time Out' method of discipline to exude the same lack of control and forcing their attention and establishing authority. It does work, but the effort they have to make of repeatedly physically dragging that screaming kid into the corner of the room or the base of the stairs or wherever 'Time Out' may be - is INFINITELY harder physically than threatening a spanking

I haven't had any kids yet, but having to drag a six year old into 'Time Out' a few times a day when I'm in my mid-40s and probably with a sore back - I'm thinking that threatening to take off my belt may be better off for MY health in the long run.


Exactly, for YOU, not for the child. I am no advocate of time out as a teaching method, but it does give both a child & a parent a chance to calm down. Truth is, it only takes one or two instances of "repeats" before the child calms quickly & becomes able to listen & learn whatever it is that a parent is trying to teach. Sure, it's harder than hitting and that is exactly the point. Spanking is for the parent, not the child,; a quick & easy way to gain control, whilst making a child feel helpless, risking the loss of trust, instilling anger & resentment & furthering lazy parenting. No one said that parenting was supposed to easy.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 223
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 7:34:45 PM

It's about putting YOURSELF in a position where your child pays attention; it's about teaching appropriate consequences for inappropriate behaviors.


Just wondering what you deem as appropriate consequences?

I was the preachers kid....

my dad was a big one on not spanking!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 224
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 7:58:06 PM
Appropriate consequences are, for the most part those that would logically follow a specific action, age appropriately. If a 12 yr old with a cell phone is told that bedtime is 9PM, then is found to be texting their friends at 9:30, you take away the phone for a few days. If your 7 yr old child is told that once their room is clean they can go outside to play, then doesn't clean their room & is made to stay inside, that is an appropriate consequence. If a three year old is told that if they stay by you in the store, they can choose a toy, then takes off & the result (consequence) is that they don't get to do so, that is appropriate & educational. If your 2 yr old throws their toy at another child, you take away the toy, explaining that that is not what toys are for & that, if they are frustrated with their friend, they can use their words & simply tell them. Rewards for proper behavior & consequences for unacceptable behavior necessitate learning. Modelling is the best teaching tool & how children learn, despite any method one may choose to employ; therefore, getting angry & lashing out does little as far educating children how to act in any given situation.

Of course, education begins prior to entering the store, church, wherever it may be, and the lack of same (ie. lack of parenting) is where the problem begins. Far too often, there is no discussion with the 3 yr old prior to entering the toy store, so the child has no reference for appropriate behavior & the parent is left with little opportunity to teach. That is on the parent, & I see the problem as parents reacting as if they have no idea why a 3 yr old doesn't know that it is unacceptable to run around a church, store, whatever. Teaching begins prior to reacting to improper behaviors. The goal of a parent is to teach a child how to act, not to be in a position where they have to react. Follow through or lack of same is the most telling detail from what I have seen. For the most part, one can get a child to listen, to calm, by simply bending down to their level & explicitly stating what is expected, what is right/wrong & why this is so, long before it gets to the point where they have "no alternative" but to lay their hands on the child in order to get them to cease a particular behavior.
 Xray86
Joined: 2/2/2012
Msg: 225
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 8:49:29 PM

I would imaine that your gf's whom you spanked were not so young as to have their IQ's still at the developmental stage, but if they were, then you have REAL problems!


Ha, someone got jokes. I walked right into that one. Anyways, I never had a drop of IQ from spanking. If it ever was dropped, it was because of prejudiced teachers playing mind games with me and manipulating grades for the worse because I apparently didn't deserve honest grading for the same work as others. To this day I'm hostile towards educators, and that would be the only factor for me "losing" IQ.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 226
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 8:59:39 PM
Sorry to hear about your bad school experience, and glad to hear that you have a sense of humor. Truth is, your IQ was not likely damaged by your teachers, even if your experience damged your willingness to and enjoyment of learning. Loss of respect does not equal to the loss of one's measurable intellect.To be fair, you admit that you were only spanked a few times. Spanking as a means of discipline, as an attempt to teach a child right from wrong, is a failure, and while I firmly believe that IQ is more influenced by genetics, there is something to be said for it's effect on cognitive ability. Hitting a child does not foster thought or the ability to reason.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 227
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/7/2013 10:43:08 PM

Spanking is for the parent, not the child,; a quick & easy way to gain control, whilst making a child feel helpless, risking the loss of trust, instilling anger & resentment & furthering lazy parenting.


If spanking is being a lazy parent, what the heck do you call people who plop their kids in front of a TV or video game for hours on end? Hey, it doesn't inflict any pain and THEY get to control the game, right?
Kids show anger and resentment towards their parents using ANY kind of discipline - 'time out' included. The kid is SUPPOSED to feel helpless when they are being disciplined - how are they ever going to recognize who is in control?
Loss of trust happens when the kid is given pain for something he/she does not understand. If you can explain to them WHY they are going to get a spanking, then they will know better next time. You don't even need to hurt the kid when you paddle them - it's a demeaning unpleasant act that proves they are not in control. Doing a spanking the 'right' way is not an easy thing for either party involved, and that is the point. One time should be all it takes.

If you feel compelled to spank kids repeatedly, you've got bigger issues that probably involve your OWN discipline.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 228
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/8/2013 4:49:24 PM

If spanking is being a lazy parent, what the heck do you call people who plop their kids in front of a TV or video game for hours on end? Hey, it doesn't inflict any pain and THEY get to control the game, right?


Lazy. They may even be the same parents.


Kids show anger and resentment towards their parents using ANY kind of discipline - 'time out' included. The kid is SUPPOSED to feel helpless when they are being disciplined - how are they ever going to recognize who is in control?


Discipline is not about control. Proper discipline enables children to feel empowered, not powerless. Sorry, but I think that particular statement is quite ignorant. The goal is to have children in control of themselves.


Loss of trust happens when the kid is given pain for something he/she does not understand. If you can explain to them WHY they are going to get a spanking, then they will know better next time. You don't even need to hurt the kid when you paddle them - it's a demeaning unpleasant act that proves they are not in control. Doing a spanking the 'right' way is not an easy thing for either party involved, and that is the point. One time should be all it takes.


Loss of trust begins when someone who promises never to hurt you does, in fact hurt you. You are right, it can be demaning & foster a sense of helplessness, which is exactly why it is not an effective means of educating a child as to how to behave in society. If instead, you took the time to explain to a child why their action/offense is unacceptable, minus the physical "punishment", what makes you think you wouldn't accomplish the same thing? Are you suggesting that humans learn best by demeaning, unpleasant acts?


Spanking when properly implemented shouldn't inflict pain but rather be an 'attention-getter.' The problem lies with how most parents do it as vengeance rather than training. They do it when frustrated or angry and in fact to inflict pain. This is the absolutely worst way. A proper spank should be no more forceful than clapping in applause. And when training is done well eventually you don't have to do it anymore since the child (or animal) has successfully learned what you were teaching.


"Proper spanking"? Really?
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 229
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/8/2013 10:10:28 PM
If instead, you took the time to explain to a child why their action/offense is unacceptable, minus the physical "punishment", what makes you think you wouldn't accomplish the same thing?

If the kid is over-stimulated from playtime, or has siblings in the wings giving them grief, or didn't eat their dinner and may be over-tired, they are NOT going to sit and listen to your explanations just because you want them/demand them to do so.

Spanking when properly implemented shouldn't inflict pain but rather be an 'attention-getter.'

Bingo.

The problem lies with how most parents do it as vengeance rather than training. They do it when frustrated or angry and in fact to inflict pain. This is the absolutely worst way.

Right again. The kid should NEVER be an outlet for YOUR pain; it's a way to explain why their 'pain' is a result of their actions.

Embracing the child and lecturing him/her in subdued tones without any physical action may work when you have a single child and can limit the amount of stimulation they get. My brother's oldest was the oldest nephew - they did that 'embrace lecture' to him many times as a toddler. But they have six young kids now. SIX. It's nearly impossible to lecture ANY kid one-on-one in that zoo of a household without some distractions running through the room.


Loss of trust begins when someone who promises never to hurt you does, in fact hurt you.

Making promises you can't keep is the problem there - NOT the pain inflicted. People WILL get hurt; physically, emotionally, spiritually - and NOT just by you - that's real life. It's how you DEAL with the hurt that makes you a good parent. Promising it won't happen is noble, but foolish.
 Orionthehunter9
Joined: 6/28/2012
Msg: 230
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 4:29:18 AM
Don't even respond Danimal, you're right on the money on all counts. It is about control. And children can learn it and be granted it, but in the parent child relationship they are not in control and they need to understand that. And you're also correct that there IS a proper way to administer one. And it is a last resort device. You model the desired behaviour, you explain it, you explain the undesirable as well, and you warn them of the consequences. It is most often not the most appropriate form of discipline so you rarely employ it. When you do you should not have to use it again. Im not sure whether to laugh or cringe On a trip to Walmart on a Saturday watching parents beg and plead and reason with their 4 year old to behave. And lose the battle. Prepare them before and let them know what the consequences will be for poor behaviour prior to ever entering the store. Doesn't even mean a spanking.

I've spanked my child twice in her life. She was warned prior and she knew when it was coming for the behaviour she was warned about. And she never needed another. She is quite in control of many aspects of her life, and all the ones she should be for her age. She knows who is in control of others. She is an honour student in grade 8 and has a healthy self-esteem.

The bleeding hearts who view it as violence need to lay off the marijuana sometimes. There is a world of difference between appropriate and properly administered discipline and violence and abuse.
 FlyyinSolo87
Joined: 6/15/2011
Msg: 231
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 5:47:41 AM
The worst memories, the ones that actually formed my psychological problems, weren't of my mother spanking me for misbehaving. They are the ones of my father chucking a plate at me for not sorting the laundry properly. When my father smacked me down in the middle of the parking lot at Outback Steakhouse for telling him that I couldn't talk to him right then after he said something really hurtful. When my father screamed horrible insults at me for not doing what he said, when he said it, and doing it the way he said it. Not when my mother spanked me because at 5 years old when I called my brother a p*ssy, or when my mother spanked me because I slapped my sister across the face. I reflect on those spankings and laugh, but not when my father did what he did. Now as a mother, I go to great lengths not to spank my child. However, sometimes it comes down to it. It has nothing to do with the bad day I'm having. Even on my worst day, I'm very level headed when it comes to my child. I try not to get angry with my son, I try to get stern. I've actually caught myself getting angry with and it ends when I hear myself yelling at him. It's at that point I back down and address the issue properly. My philosophy on discipline is the same as the 3 strikes law. You do something 3 times after being told not to do it and why not to do it, then you get a a punishment and sometimes the first punishment doesn't work, so I must now seek an alternative. The main problem as to why we have so many "discipline" problem or juvenile delinquents has nothing to do with whether you spank or don't spank. It's the follow through. If you're going to punish a child in any way, shape, or form, do it. Don't say 30 times, "Stop doing that. I told you not to do that. If you do that again you'll get punished, I told you if you do that again you'll be punished. How many times do I have to tell you don't do that. I'm serious stop doing that. Why are you still doing that? Oh, boy you're gonna get it if you don't stop." etc. That's the real problem. I've sat in doctors offices, social service offices, grocery stores, restaurants, where parents do this and keep warning their child that they will "get it", but never do a damn thing about it to correct the behavior. I don't care if your ground your child, spank your child, lecture your, or take away his favorite toy. There was one point where my son spanked his cousin because he was "misbehaving" for not sharing a toy. You know what I did? I told him that spanking is for grown ups to do, not children. I also told him that if he didn't want to get spanked himself that he shouldn't do it again. And that was all it took. He didn't stop because he was afraid of being spanked, it was because he knew I would follow through on it. A proper discipline requires follow through, no matter how you choose to do it. Just remember to each his own, and you have no right or business telling another parent how he or she should to raise or punish their own children.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 232
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 5:24:16 PM

Don't even respond Danimal,


Danimal & Orion, I feel sorry for your kids. I am not a bleeding heart who deems all spanking violent abuse, although the laying of ones hands on a child is indeed violence, no matter how you present it.

You both display ignorance as to what discipline is. It is a parent's obligation to teach their children self control, not to teach their children that they are not in control. Whatever made you think that it is appropriate to hit a child for not eating their dinner, or for being "over stimulated" from too much playtime? What exactly is it that you think a spank in either instance teaches? That YOU are in control? You really have such a strong need to be in control in those examples that you find it acceptable to hit your child? That's just sad.
 Orionthehunter9
Joined: 6/28/2012
Msg: 233
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 5:54:03 PM
Youre ignorance is enlightening. No wonder there are so many screwed up kids who think they are in control. I do not need to assert control over a child. Just make them stuationally aware of the fact they aren't always in control despite thinking so. And what ever gave you the idea I would ever hit a child over not eating their dinner. Do not conjure up some ridulously inappropriate scenario and assume we would employ that form of discipline. We have both stated it is rarely ever used and that it is rarely appropriate. In other words, put your sickening agenda away and listen to what people are saying!

I'll take a world of children parented by Danimal. At least before he employs whatever form of arbitrary discipline I can be assured he is capable of LISTENING which is the crucial first step in determining whether or not discipline is even necessary. The same cant be said for you.

I feel no guilt or shame for having spanked my kid twice in her lifetime. No violence existed, and the only thing that remains was a lesson learned and lots of love.
Your political correctness merely represents a step backward for parenting.

You maintain the position purely for the sake of trying to maintain a morally superior position which really is just another way of asserting your own position of perceived authority. Which in fact, is little more than another form of violent behaviour that you hate so much.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 234
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History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 6:24:30 PM
My children ARE in control, of themselves & they have learned that the exercise of same results in consequences. Fortunately for me, my "ignorance" has resulted in three extremely well behaved, polite, respectful & successful children, and my daughter who just interviewed with two Ivy League colleges thanks me, even though I never hit her.

I have not conjured up any scenario, I responded to the scenarios presented. Were you to comprehend my postings, I have not stated that spanking is necessarily abusive, only that it is not a valid teaching method. You have no knowledge whatever of the reason I maintain my position, although you should. The discussion at hand bears no relation to my position of perceived authority. I maintained authority (note the contrast to control) in my own household without violence, and it is possible for any parent who has patience & education to do so as well.
 Orionthehunter9
Joined: 6/28/2012
Msg: 235
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 6:36:25 PM
Whoops. I meant perceived superiority. My mistake. Mention of your little Ivy Leaguer only confirms that.

And spanking is not a valid teaching method I agree wholeheartedly. It is merely a very infrequently employed disciplinary tactic from which a lesson may be derived. It is ABSOLUTELY not a teaching device.
 FlyyinSolo87
Joined: 6/15/2011
Msg: 236
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 6:43:39 PM

It is a parent's obligation to teach their children self control, not to teach their children that they are not in control.


Punishment/discipline is to show the child that they are not in control. Not in control of the situation, and not in control of themselves. The consequences of which will teach them the results of not being in control of themselves. It does not mean that the parents absolutely need to show the child that they(the parents) are in control. It is the job of the authoritarian/disciplinarian(just fancier words for who's in control) to teach the child they need to be in control of themselves in order to not receive a punishment. Which in turn TEACHES self control. Spanking is no different than any other form of punishment. And again I state, you have no right to tell another parent how they should discipline their child.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 237
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 6:51:37 PM
Your attempt at bullying fails. I am not superior because I didn't spank my child & my example was no different than any other statement about one's child in an attempt to argue my point. A parent who doesn't spank does not necessarily allow their child to rule the roost, any more than a parent who spanks necessarily has children who are "better" or more successful, as you suggest.

So,then, we agree, yet you feel the need to put me down. If my posts hint at my supposed superiority, than I can assume that yours point toward the low self esteem evidenced by your attempts to shoot me down personally. Again, spanking, while not necessarily abuse is not discipline & never derives a lesson other than that those who are bigger can take physical control. A lesson perhaps learned on a school playground, but having no place in the parent/child relationship.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 238
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 1/9/2013 7:11:42 PM

Punishment/discipline is to show the child that they are not in control. Not in control of the situation, and not in control of themselves. The consequences of which will teach them the results of not being in control of themselves. It does not mean that the parents absolutely need to show the child that they(the parents) are in control. It is the job of the authoritarian/disciplinarian(just fancier words for who's in control) to teach the child they need to be in control of themselves in order to not receive a punishment. Which in turn TEACHES self control. Spanking is no different than any other form of punishment. And again I state, you have no right to tell another parent how they should discipline their child.


Who says? You think it better to teach a child that they lack control than to teach them self control? Really?Punishment by definition involves vengeance, thus evidence that it is for the benefit of the parent rather than the child. I fail to see how you believe that hitting a child shows them how to control themslves. It may give YOU control, momentarily, but it doesn't teach them anything. It is widely acknowledged that children learn best by modeling behaviors, which would indicate that spanking fails as proper teaching of self control. It is interesting that you use spanking & discipline interchangeably. I am not telling anyone how to discipline their child, I am simply stating that spanking is not discipline.
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