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 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 36
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.Page 3 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
I tried to stay away from this thread, but there is just so many myths lies and half-truths that I now feel the need to participate.

First, the real reason that the DEA went after Emery is not because he was causing harm to Americans (there already was marijuana in America decades before Emery went into business, and the majority of his customers were the smaller growers not the mass pushers), Emery was declared the most wanted Canadian because of the amount of time and money he has invested in repealing marijuana prohibition.
Marc Emery is a political prisoner.

1. Marijuana is in fact one of the more popular gateway drugs for teens today.

This is a myth, with no scientific support.
The majority of people who abuse hard drugs start with alcohol and tobbacco.
The closest you can come to finding a cause and effect to hard drug use, is that because of the prohibition, people who enjoy marijuana need to seek criminal sources, who often will expose the marijuan user to the harder drugs. Sometimes in an unscroupolous pusher method.
So two realities can be viewed an the "gateway" theory.
1. People who are likely to becaome hard drug users, will use alcohol and tobbacco before moving on to marijuana, and will use the hard drugs even if they are not introduced to marijuana first.
2. It is the prohibition itself that causes the most common patterns to hard drug use. There is a good chance that if marijuana were legal, users would not be exposed to harder drugs.

2. A fair amount of teens who smoke pot move on to harder, more dangerous controlled substances such as meth, coke, heroine, oxy, percs and so on.

Well that is the gateway theory.
But I would like to point out that in the Bible Belt, where marijuana prohibition is highly enforced, has America's worst rates for meth and oxy abuse.

3. The controlled substances they move on to do in fact "kill" children through overdoses. This is a fairly direct item and only 1 step removed from doing pot.

And two steps from alcohol.
It also shows that prohibition is a failed policy.
Now that education is starting to kill the meth epidemic, oxy is becoming one of the most problamatic drug on the market. And oxy is being provided by the pharmaceutical industry.

4. Some who are purchasing the seeds are using them for medicinal purposes.

This should not bother anyone.
Some very sick people gain relief from some very bad symptoms using marijuana. In my opinion it is highly immoral to deny them this relief.

5. Some who are purchasing the seeds are using them for their own "private stash" so to say.

Shouldn't a free society allow this.
Someone getting high in their basement should not bother anyone. Marijuana users rarely cause problems to society that require law enforcement or medical care. Alcohol on the other hand can be blamed for many crimes and injuries, including alcohol poisoning.

6. Some who are purchasing the seeds are using them to cultivate a crop for re-sale. Now, this is where it gets fun.

So end prohibition and the fun ends. Allow it to become a regulated industry.

7. Those who re-sell pot have in the past and currently are known to carry firearms and to use those firearms in indiscriminate manners to control their territory and protect their inventory and liquid (cash) assets.

There is some truth to this, but it is not the standard for the marijuana market. For the most part, marijuana is sold by small time peaceful dealers, it's only when the criminal organizations (street gangs, cartels, ect.) that violence gets involved.
So way not take away the number one source of income away from these criminal organizations.

8. Children have been shot while playing in their yards, sleeping in their beds and even in their mother's arms while sleeping. Nice thought, run up to mommy for a hug and love and get shot by a drug dealer driving by.

Excellent reason to end prohibition. This was the exact same scenario when alcohol was outlawed.
End prohibition and the gangs won't have any revenue to fight over.

9. If the seeds did not exist the plant would not exist. If the plant did not exist then the dealer would not exist. (Hmmm... Nice theory isn't it. Remove the seed and the dealer withers away into dust...)

True, but good luck getting rid of all the seeds and clonable plants.
Marc Emery is a small patato in the marijuana industry. Marc Emery's seeds are very high quality and very expensive (some over $500 for 10 seeds), this is not what the Mexican cartels are using for their production. Marc Emery's seeds were being purchased by the marijuana connoisseur, and grown for a small group of people.

10. Marc Emery knows full well what the laws in the United States and Canada are, he knows full well that these seeds at the price they are sold and the small quantity sold will be used to cultivate marijuana plants, some of them by dealers.

Yes, he was well aware. And he also took the majority of his profits (from both the seed business and magazine) to end prohibition. He also paid taxes on his income from the business, decalring on his tax forms that he sod marijuana seeds.
Emery's biggest mistake was doing the seed business while also running for a seat in the BC provincial government. The DEA wanted him because he was making headway in legalizing marijuana in Canada.

11. Marc Emery knowing the laws, the risks and the potential for being arrested chose to deal in these seeds and then chose to market in the United States the sale of these seeds.

He knew the risks from the Canadian government, but few would have believed that a Canadian would be extradicted for commiting crimes inside of Canada. He never set foot in America.

12. Marc Emery is now sitting in a jail, with both the Canadian & US Gov'ts having reviewed the case and arrived at this decision unanimously.

Not really. The Canadian government tried to distance themselves from this as much as possible. There is no legislation specific to this case, it was one judge who allowed the DEA to force their will on Canadians. The Canadian government has ignored Emery's business for over a decade, even though he freely advertised and declare his business on his tax returns.

What's really amazing to me here, is how those who are so strongly for marijuana see it as completely harmless and a "good" thing. In fact, like any other item it has it's benefits (I'll concede those) and it has it's drawbacks.

If it's both harmful and beneficial, why not allow consenting adults the choice of if they want to partake in an activity that does very little harm to society.
Alcohol has far less bebefits and is way more destructive, but we have a very clear concensus that adults in a free society should have the choice if they want to partake in alcohol consumption.

It carries with it basically the same exact risks of lung/heart disease as cigarrettes,

The jury is still out on that one, but there could be some truth to that one. I have read (but can't find right now) a study that suggest because of the particl size of marijuana smoke, it may actually help clear the lungs of the harmful toxins from tobbacco smoke.
But either way, we know that cigarettes do cause lung cancer, and they are fully allowed to be enjoyed by consenting adults.

it does in fact alter how the mind see things (similiar to alcohol as both are a depressant)

It does alter the mind, that's why we get high, but it is far from the effects of alcohol.
I have seen lots of people high, and sure they will do some silly things, I have never seen someone who is high an marijuana commit dangerous acts they would not have commited while not on marijuana.
Alcohol on the other hand, makes people violent, and willing to partake in very risky behaviour.
When people are high on marijuana they maintain a high level of control over their actions. Even when someone gets really stoned, they just melt on the couch and pass out. People who are really drunk stumble around, crashing into things and cause a general nuisance.
And I will just mention that there is no marijuana equivalent to "beer goggles".

it's an expensive habit that sucks the financial resources out of a home and community,

Then let's ban golf.
As long as they are using legal means, people should have the freedom to spend their income (after tax) as they wish.
When I was a kid, I knew a kid who had to move out of a nice home into a crappy little apartment because his dad wanted to buy a Ferrarri. As much as I think it was a stupid decision, in a free society people should be free to spent their money as they wish.

it enables people to do things (make decisions) that they normally would not do without it (as does alcohol)

I have seen drunks make some really bad decisions, but what kind of bad decisions are pot heads making?

and again I only see 1 or 2 potentially positive uses for it, being prescribed medicinal and potentially hemp rope. Beyond that, I've never seen anything else positive come out of it.

First, hemp and marijuana are not the same plant. Hemp has such a low THC content, that getting high from hemp is completely impossible.
For some other benefits, marijuana has been used to fight depression, eliminate anger problems, kick other much more harmful addictions, help with anxiety and I could go on and on.
One benefit that would end with prohibition, is that some people are feeding their families by growing weed. For whatever reason they are not able to earn an income legally, have turned to growing weed as a way of supporting their children. I know a group of growers known as "the Mamas", they are all single mothers that would be on welfare if it were not for growing marijuana. They are very peaceful ladies, who provide everything their growing children need to become strong adults.

To attempt to declare what Emery did as harmless, is completely wrong.

He did nothing to change the marijuana market. If people could not buy seeds off of Emery, they would have found other sources.

By arresting Emery the DEA has temporarily cut the head off of may pot dealers

Not at all. There are tons of other seed sellers. Some are right out in the open, some are more underground.
Marc Emery's arrest did nothing to slow or stop the production or sale of marijuana.

I know, they have their own plants now and thus their own seeds

Just a quick lesson how Emery's seeds were used by growers.
Growers, mostly mom and pops, buy receive the seeds, they will grow a few mothers from those seeds, they will then choose the best plants and begin cloning from those plants, keeping the mothers alive for several years. They will never intentionally send their plants to seed, since a plant in seed mode has no viable bud (what people smoke) and the plant will die at the end of the seeding process.
It is only the female of the species that produces a smokable product.

who we're looking to grow and develop into new areas of pot trafficing.

Access to seeds does not create a market. Whether or not high quality seeds are available, people are going to buy weed if they want to get high.

And yes, I do see drug dealers as being equal to and deserving of the same punishment as child killers and pedophiles.

That's just idiotic.
I notice you have daughters, and I guarentee, given the choice, you would rather have a dealer try and sell them weed, then have them raped or murdered.
Now some dealers, known as pushers, are evil **stards. But for the most part, marijuana dealers are peaceful people who beleive they are not harming society and are simply fighting an unjust law.
I am against people breaking the law to make a profit, since it puts them to an advantage over the people who follow the law, but I put them on the same level as tax cheats and other white collar criminals.

Now, did it have the potential to affect the liberty (freedom) of someone? Yes, every person who transported those packages had the risk of going to jail.

Not true at all. There's a thing in the law called intent. And for the postman just transporting a package, there is no intent.
I can even back this up with an example from my own life.
I used to work for Air Canada Cargo. One day I was checking in a shipment from Jamaica, while putting the shipment onto the shelf (with a forklift), four customs agents aproached me and instructed me to move the shipment to a corner of the building for inspection. Sure enough they foung several kgs of cocaine. So the customs agents fully witnessed me in possession of the cocaine. Was I arrested for this? Heck no, they didn't even question me, it was actually me who asked them what they found.

What Marc Emery did was stupid,

I agree, he should not have been so visable in the fight to end marijuana prohibition while also selling the seeds. He was kind of asking for a fight. Most of the growers I know agree with this, most of them think he is kind of an idiot.

he did it because of greed,

Not really, he lived a fairly simple life and gave the majority of his profits to fighting marijuana prohibition. He might be a bit of a fame whore, but greedy I don't think so.

You may think the sentence is ridiculous, but here it seems to be not strong enough in the minds of many of us. How about 5 years for every single order he sold in the US. Now that would be justice in my book.

I wonder how you feel about white collar criminals, and the slap on the wrists they recieve when caught.
By the way, white collar crime causes more death and property loss then all other crimes combined.

Okay, fine. Let's ignore what he did on the Canadian side of the border and just look at the things he did on the United States border.

He never did anything on the American side, everything he did he did in Canada.
If you want to talk about an injustice, how about all the guns that make their way into Canada to be used in crimes. Over 90% of guns used in crimes in Canada come from the US. This is because your country has rediculous gun laws.

He employed the United States Postal Service, as a sub-contractor of the Canadian Postal Service (not sure what it's called in Canada), to distribute and deliver a magazine that contained within it the means in which to order via the United States Postal Service and consequently utilizing the Canadian Postal Service to receive the funds for this transaction.

This means he was a customer. And these two organizations took on zero risk by transporting his seeds. Only if it could be proven that they were aware of the nature of the shipment could they be charged with a crime, instead they simply took payment for providing a legal service.
And it's called Canada Post.

In addition, he then, without full and complete disclosure, shipped these seeds (we can assume this because the US never would have knowingly accepted them otherwise) to addresses in the United States.

So maybe he could have been charged with postal fraud. But he did not put either organization at risk of prosecution.

I say screw Marc Emery and I personally hope the guys in the US prison he's in teach him one heck of a lesson. Can we say... Marc, meet your new wife.

Wow, supporting rape, not that surprised. But a civilized society should never support vigilante justice, no matter what the crime is.

Seems to me, that in Canada, being a drug lord (which is what Emery is)

Not even close. Drug lords use violence to control their markets, Emery sold seeds out of a magazine.
Not only that, but Emery was not even that big of a player in the marijuana market.
He sold some seeds, and that was it. People still had to actually grow the plants, harvest and trim, then distribute, none of whick Emery had any involvement.

Where does Emery get the seeds?

Moslty from Amsterdam and some from local seed producers. He was smart enough to know that growing himself would be too high of a risk.

It would only be a natural conclusion that he is cultivating the plants and at least harvesting their seeds,

That's not a conclusion, it's a false assumption.

United States chose to enforce it when he began distribution in the United States

No they went after him after he ran for a seat in the provincial government. Emery had been selling seeds for well over a decade.

The really nice thing now, would be to see the Canadian Government step in, seize his house, cars, furnishings, bank accounts, store, inventory and magazine, stocks, bonds, mutual funds and anything else the guy has.

We get it, you want Emery completely destroyed as a person. Curious what should happen to the BP executive that made the decision that a $300,000 valve was not cost effective for the Deepwater Horizon well?

He got 5 years for his crap, that's nothing in comparison to what he has done.

And how did he actually cause harm to society.
If he wasn't selling seeds, other sources would have been found. He never forced his seeds on anyone, and ther is zero evidence he ever sold to a minor.

1. The United States and Canada do in fact have extradition treaties. It happens all the time. Canada will simply refuse to deport if it's a capital punishment offense until the US agrees to NOT execute the offender. Okay, the US puts up with this. In reality, we could save money by not trying to extradite them and just wait for Canada to deport them on a Visa violation and pick 'em up at the border. Saves us the money of housing, prosecuting and executing them. I like this plan.

Actually it is automatic. If a criminal manages to flee to Canada, the US government immediately agrees to not execute. It's really a non-issue.
But again, Emery was never in the states and should not have been forced out of his home country. Even when Canadians commit crimes in the US, if they can mike it back to Canada they are usually allowed to serve their sentence in Canada.
And by the way, there was no trial, emery took a plea deal to stop his wife and friend from being prosecuted as well.

2. Marc Emery did a little more than accept orders for seeds. He publishes a magazine that offers these seeds for sale, in which he himself is the advertiser and distributor, he distributed this magazine with it's add for an illegal and controlled substance in the United States. The readers did NOT come to Canada to get the magazine.

That's freedom of speech, and both countries have it.
Steal this Book and The Amarchists Cookbook are good example of publications that encourage very dangerous and highly illegal activities. Both are protected under freedom of speech.

The US regularly does extradite individuals who commit crimes in other countries to those countries or prosecutes them here.

Yes, but it is always people who commited crimes while in those countries they were extradicted to.
A good example is right now Pakistan wants to extradict the CEO of Facebook for having a page on his site called "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day". I don't think any sane person thinks he should be sent to Pakistan for execution.

he snubbed his nose at the DEA

And that is why they made him their most wanted Canadian "criminal". They didn't make it a meth cook, they didn't make it a cocaine smuggler. Nope, they went after the guy who gave millions to fight marijuana prohibition.

I'm going to ignore post 47, since it is purely narcessistic bs.

check photos of Marc Emery at 50 years of age me he look s at least 60, maybe 65 +

He looks a thousand times better then an alcoholic his age. Marc Emery has always looked like a scrawny little weakling. Weed had nothing to do with it.

Marijuana prohibition needs to end. The laws themselves cause far more harm to society then the plant itself.
If you look at all the violent criminal organizations in Canada, US, and Mexico, they are earning the vast majority of their funding through marijuana. They then use that money to open up markets for more harmful things like meth, crack and prostitution.
Ending marijuana prohibition would do more harm to the gangs and cartels, then executing the top 1000 leaders.

I also find it an attack on my freedoms, that because I don't like to drink, but still like a bit of an escape from the drudge of life, some would call me a criminal and I am forced to deal with a black market to buy my intoxicant of choice. I pay my taxes, I don't drive intoxicated, and I am constantly helping my fellow man, I should be allowed to smoke a joint in my living room without fear of prosecution, or putting myself at risk by dealing with the black market (although I have never felt fear from the people I buy my weed from).

Legalize it, tax it, and get over it. It is far less harmful then alcohol, which is promoted by society.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 37
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 6/25/2010 7:10:59 PM
You know Super Ryan, they claim that sex offenders can not be rehabilitated. How about if we just repeal all the sex offender laws and legalize rape. Or how about we go ahead and declair drunk driving legal, after all we spend a fortune on that.

You know, every criminal organization out there would love it if we would legalize what they do so they can remove the risk of prosecution and jail from their occupation. Guess what? It's not going to happen.

In the end, Emery knew it was illegal in the US & Canada to sell the seeds, he chose to do it and took the risk. Tough luck. And let me ask you this, had he sat in Canada stealing credit card numbers via hacking or a malware site, would that be considered not a a crime against a person because he was in Canada at the time? One does not need to be in a physical location to commit a crime at that location, only the intent to commit the crime and then the crime be carried out. That is what Emery did is intended to break the law and then break it. The funny thing is, the guy is so stupid he publicly advertised for co-conspirators to help him break the law.

If anything, he should be glad he's in prison where he can't hurt himself anymore.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 38
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 6/25/2010 8:48:44 PM
So it's okay to prosecute those who suffer what is called a mental defect for their actions but we should not prosecute others who break the law because they think the law is wrong. Okay, I got that. So this is a do as I say not as I do type of argument that your making.

You know, I think it's wrong to respect the independence of Canada. In fact, I believe it should be part of the United States. You know, I don't respect the repeal of slavery and I believe that all those who are current Canadian Citizens should be enslaved. Who cares about the law, it's just the law and since I don't agree with them then I'll ignore it.

This is what your saying when you choose to ignore the law on marijuana because you don't agree with it. Tell ya what MF, I'll go further, I don't respect the law on property and I think that everything you own should be mine so I'll just take it. Who cares what you think? Who cares what the law says? After all, can you really prove it's your stuff? I don't care if it's in your house or not, do you have the receipts? Do you have the serial numbers? How do we know you didn't steal it all and just find a bunch of receipts to make it look like you own it? I know, possession is 9/10ths of the law, but hell, I say it's mine. Prove it's not.

The law is clear, marijuana at this time is an illegal item. The law is clear, marijuana seeds are an illegal item to distribute at this time. He crossed the border with his business, even if he did not physically cross it himself, and he chose to do this. He broke the law. Do you think murderers agree with the law on not killing? Do you think speeders agree with the law on speeding? Do you think that tax scoffaws agree with tax laws?

In the end, it is illegal because society has deemed it to be illegal. If you don't like it change the law, but don't violate the law while you attempt to change it, if you do then you will be prosecuted, it's that simple.

Don't believe me, go ahead, try to bring seeds into the US, I'm sure you'll be prosecuted for it too.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 39
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 6/26/2010 6:16:51 AM
And yet everyone who wants to smoke or sell it believes it should be legal. Amazingly, those who smoke marijuana are in the minority. Same as those who smoke cigarettes. Maybe you guys would have a better shot at changing the tobacco laws (something that is actually legal to possess) and then going after the marijuana laws, at least then you'd be able to smoke your joints and bowls in public.

Keep attempting to claim all the non-sense that marijuana is this great thing that should be freely available to all and has no harmful effects, doesn't alter the mind and so on. In the end, the facts remain:

1. Marijuana does in fact alter how the mind sees things (thus making it mind altering).
2. Marijuana does in fact alter reaction times.
3. Marijuana is in fact responsible or violence amongst dealers. It has gotten people killed in the past and will get them killed in the future as druggies and dealers fight over it.
4. Are you going to tell me no junkie has ever stolen anything just so he can get money for pot? I'd love for you to tell me that one, it would be hilarious to see if you can type it with a straight face.
5. No child has ever been killed in relations to marijuana (again tell that one with a straight face).

Keep going MF, all your doing in the end is digging a giant hole of claims that the junkies have been spouting off for years. In the end, there is no legalization of marijuana anywhere in North America and there is not expected to be anytime soon. As SaharaM said, one need not step foot in a counry to violate it's money laundering laws and one need not step foot in a country to violate it's drug laws.

Curious MF, if marijuana is so harmless and such a great thing, do you (or did you) give your kids a joint to smoke with breakfast? Maybe they have a bowl to take to school for lunch, perhaps you find it acceptable to have them peddle it for you in the middle of English class. You could do that with your argument, after all, how can you get in trouble? You never set foot in the school with it yourself.

Go ahead, try pullin' that one off.
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 40
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 6/26/2010 8:32:11 PM
First, I'm a Canadian in the Vancouver area and I have kids. I don't use marijuana, though I have used it when I was younger.

I hate that Marc Emery is going to prison in another country when he wasn't even selling drugs, just the seeds to grow it. It's analogous to a Swiss chemist being sent to do time in the States because he sold one of the ingredients in the manufacture of LSD to a company in California.

But I really hate that the argument for extradition is being carried by someone who keeps throwing up such stupid arguments.

More than a decade ago there were a lot of stock promoters and lottery salesmen operating in this city who ripped off Americans for millions. I remember talking to one of these sleazebags when he was in the process of stealing the entire settlement of a Florida man who was a recent quadripalegic. If someone is going to do business with Americans then he can't hide behind the 49th and avoid their justice system. Yes, the US drug laws are nonsensical, and yes, I feel sorry for the guy. But the precedent of letting him avoid American justice would be too high of a consequence.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 43
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 6/29/2010 2:28:38 PM
Regardless of if they re-offend or not, they are still not "cured" in the sense of a "mental defect" according to all the experts. Remember, it's all the liberals who claim that sex offenders are suffering from a disease and it's not a choice of theirs.

As far as Marc Emergy goes, he is getting what he deserves. You can argue all day that he never walked on American soil, but he did intentionally market his product and conduct his business on American soil. The magazine he publishes is simply acting as an agent to advertise the product and in the end is the beginning of consumating his crime.

Nigerian scammers need not step foot in Canada to rip off people's life savings and if tracked down Canada I'm sure will prosecute them. Same thing here.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 45
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/1/2010 11:29:46 AM
So your saying we should go easy on first time sex offenders Zekestone? I just want to make sure of that. Your also agreeing that we should go after Nigerian Scammers and pretty much hang them out to dry? I want to make sure of that. But we should turn a blind eye to those who sell drugs in any and all shape, form or whatever. After all, it's a useless war on drugs and these people hurt noone is what your saying?

I find it hilarious that your attempting to defending sex offenders and pedophiles and such in this thread on Marc Emery. I take it your not a father? I don't know of any father myself who would ever trust a sex offender near their kids, in their neighborhood, near their schools and so on. It would be ludicrous to imagine that and regardless of what any study in Switzerland says. There was one from over there a few years ago stating that unprotected sex increases endorphins in women and another that said sex promotes brain cell growth in men. Don't see depressed women racing to have unprotect sex and we don't see stupid guys getting any smarter with sex.

To attempt to bring the US Prohibition from the 20's into this is another ludicrous move on the part of those attempting to lobby to make marijuana legal. There is really no comparison between the two. Yes, alchohol does alter things, but it doesn't alter the mind. It alters speech and reflexes in that it slows them down, removes the ability to balance and may cause impaired vision. Marijuana has other effects in that it actually opens people up to doing things they would not normally do. Regardless of what means Emery himself used, in the end the seed is the beginning of any drug dealers inventory, you can't argue that. Without the seed there is no plant and without the plant there is no pot.

To bring in religion in this, it's hilarious. What does religion have to do with promoting drugs? I would love to hear this one Zekestone, just for the sake of argument please expand on it. To say that someone is not a Christian because they are against drugs is one of the funniest things I've ever heard and a huge attempt to grasp at a straw while ending up with nothing but air because your miles away from it. Seriously Zekestone, I'd love a good laugh today, so give me your view on this.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 47
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/1/2010 4:30:29 PM
Yes, a drug war causes damage to our environment. I guess burning all that pot and other drugs, the pollutants released from law enforcement vehicles and the manufacturer of weapons and ammunition are destroying our environment.

But wait... Drug deals, junkies, pushers and so on burn houses also. Meth labs blow up entire neighborhoods (seen it all live) so I think that's more dangerous than burning up a plant.

Drug Dealers, Junkies & Pushers also have vehicles and even run them regularly so that one's probably a wash. Someone's got operate a vehicle to move those drugs don't they.

Drug Dealers, Pushers & Junkies also have guns and ammunition too. So I think that one's a wash.

So how does a war on drugs destroy the environment then?

Of course, if we were to tax the drugs after legalizing them then our economic worries would be over wouldn't they. How silly of me to not see that one. Sorry, legalizing alcohol did not fix our economic worries, doing it for drugs will not either. And if we stopped the war on drugs it wouldn't wipe the deficit, it would still exist as it does. It's really just a drop in the bucket when it comes to the federal budget of the US.

And of course if we legalized pot then no one who smokes it would steal to get it would they? People steal to get alcohol and it's legal, people steal to get cigarettes (sometimes they steal the cigarettes) and it's legal. There will be no real drop in other crimes with the legalization of marijuana because those who break laws to get it today (outside of just selling it or going to buy it ) will still break laws.

Still waiting on how being anti-drug is against the bible. Please, let's hear this argument.
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 49
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/2/2010 1:37:49 AM
I've tried so hard to keep my words to myself, but I'm inclined to say something at this point. It seems a lot of y'all have missed the whole point of this.....

To address the topic at hand, this IS another example of the U.S. acting as a bully to serve it's own interests, and I also agree with others that have said Marc Emery commited no crime. If anything, what this issue does show is that the U.S. was not doing it's job to protect the border. As Bill Maher once said:

You can't say you're doing homeland security unless you're actually doing Homeland Security.

As for the taxation part, this is a bad idea.....for the governments (and the corportocracy that controls them). They can NEVER legalize marijuana. There is no money to be made from it if people are allowed to grow it legally. People will be able to obtain the seeds from others and then be able to grow their own crops, and the corporations can't allow that to happen. They won't be able to control and make money from it. So they have a STRONG interest in keeping it illegal.

As they say, there is no money in making it legal, but there is PLENTY of money to be made in keeping it illegal. Anyone wonder why the Prison Industrial Complex is such a major cash cow for the corporations? Ever wonder why a Monsanto owns 95% of American farms? If marijuana is made legal, it would threaten those industries. The silent-ruling corportocracy would lose control of those industries, and they can't allow that to happen.

As was once said:

How can something made by God be made so evil by the hands of man?
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 52
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/6/2010 4:55:59 PM
And the bible says to "Pay to Ceasar what is due to Ceaser" which means to pay your taxes. It says to obey the laws of man and so on. A drug addict knows it's illegal to do drugs and chooses to do them, just because they are an addict doesn't mean they get a free break the law card.

That would be like saying a cleptomaniac or a rapist or a murderer doesn't deserve to be punished because it's un-Christian. You've made the biggest joke argument I've seen in a long time.

In the end, your saying we should legalize drugs because drugs are "Christian" but the bible also says to NOT pollute your body. Hmmmm.... Makes ya wonder doesn't it.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 53
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/8/2010 11:27:26 AM
And where in all of that does it say to "go forth and smoke it"? I ask you madfiddler to show me this from the bible, where it says to stuff it in a pipe or roll it in a paper, set fire to it and inhale the fumes forthwith?

To burn incense before the Lord does not even venture close to smoking pot.

Now it does state to "drink to be merry, not to be drunk". Are you going to attempt to twist that into a statement saying it's okay to smoke pot?

In the end, pot is illegal. If one chooses to break the law then one must suffer the consequences of the law that has been broken. Marc Emery knows he broke the law and there is a price he has agreed to pay for it. It doesn't matter if you agree with the law, it's still the law.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 54
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/8/2010 2:31:07 PM
1. I did not bring the bible into it, Zekestone did a page or 2 back. Please, don't accuse me of that which I have not done.

2. The issue of the seeds is NOT just an American Law, it's a Canadian Law also. Since he paid taxes on the money they he gets to ignore the law? How about if credit card scammers are operating Canada stealing millions from people and they pay taxes on it, should they get a free walk?

3. The difference between this issue with the seeds and your Saudi Arabia example of Sha'ria law is that Seeds are illegal in Canada and the United States while freedom of speech is NOT illegal in the United States.

4. If I go to Saudi Arabia then I have to obey the Saudi Arabian laws. If I conduct business via mail/internet/phone or whatever in Saudi Arabia I have to obey Saudi Arabian laws where they apply to myself and my business. Marc Emery intentionally shipped his magazine to the United States and intentionally accepted payment from those in the United States for his seeds and he intentionally shipped them to the United States knowing full well it was illegal to do so. Had he wanted to fully avoid issues with the United States legal system then he would of forced his customers to come to Canada and pick up the seeds themselves and transport them back across the border themselves.

5. Do you realize how easy he's gotten off? The penalty for smuggling drugs is a lot more than 5 years of easy time in a federal pen.

What I see as so funny about this is how many different ways you guys will attempt to twist things to your benefit, just so one can smoke pot. If it truly was a majority that wanted it legalized in the United States or in Canada then do what needs to be done to change the law. It's really quite simple.

1. Go pay Gallup to do a poll to see if a true majority actually wants marijuana legalized.

2. Draw up a petition and get people to go door to door or hang out at malls or stand on the corner and get it signed. Hey, the dealers could get a signature with every sale.

3. Get the petition approved to go up on the ballot calling for the legalization of marijuana. Note, you'll need this as a federal ballot and one for each of the States and will probably still have to smash into some local laws since there are really laws on it at every level.

4. Motivate everyone to go out and vote for it to be passed.

Come to think of it, you might as well just do it as a constitutional amendment. Think about it, it will be your constitutional right to get high and grow weed in your front lawn.

Until you do that, your argument is a moot point of whatever you throw up because we both know that in the end any such attempt would be voted down at the ballot as the majority do NOT approve of smoking pot. Besides, how are you ever going to motivate all the pot smokers to quit smoking long enough to go vote? Hey, we could even set up drug dogs at the voting entrances to bust all the pot smokers as they come into vote.

Now that would be hilarious to watch. The Legalize Marijuana movement killed because all those voting to support it got busted at the polls for possession.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 56
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/10/2010 3:06:45 PM
I'd like to point something out to you kissmyasthma:

40% is NOT a majority, it is in fact unarguably a minority which is more than likely the reason none of you have moved to get some type of major change onto the ballots for legalizing marijuana.

If a presidential candidate was at 40% on the morning of the election we know they would not be elected as President and if legalizing marijuana is at 40% currently we know that it will not be legalized currently.

In the end, the guy did business in the United States knowingly and thus he's paying the price. What is so hard to comprehend about this? Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with it, it's fact and it's not going to change regardless of how much you guys want to go on and on about it.

And also Kissmyashthma can you please show us where anyone in the last 50 years has been put to death in the United States solely for dealing in drugs, seeds, paraphanelia and so on? I'd love to see a case of this where there are no other mitigating circumstances (like murder) as it would be enlightening.
 The Ogre of POF
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 58
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/10/2010 4:52:47 PM
Pot smokers are NOT stealing for their habit you said, what about these:

^^They stole a pot plant.

^^16 year old stole medicinal marijuana

^^One of 3 suspects arrested for using a gun to steal marijuana. They stole 3 large bags.

^^These guys stole "Power" (Electricity) to grow pot.

^^The guy had medicinal marijuana in Colorado, used it to pay his rent once. Then landlord decides to just steal it from him later.

^^Shot at a guy to steal his pot, money, waterpipe and so on.

I think the above, just a quick search using google shows pot smokers do steal and some will use violence to do it. Are you going to call these stories made up?
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 62
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/12/2010 12:41:43 PM
I'm not wasting my time feeling terribly sorry for Marc Emery. He is not a freedom fighter on the scale of Audie Murphy nor a poor 'victim' like Anne Frank. He is not this generation's Rosa Parks, but a profit-driven businessman.

He knew the risks he was taking, and he took them - It almost seemed that he WANTED to be arrested/charged/extradited/convicted by the US to prove a point and show what a 'martyr for the cause' he is.

The penalties in Chanda are fairly irrelevant -he chose to do business in the US knowing what their laws are.

beyond that he went out of his way in his "Cannabis Culture" magazine to personally ridicule & attack the DEA and its director and senior officers.

not the smartest thing to do -mock the people whose job it is to enforce the laws you are breaking . It may well be true that the laws are silly and should not be the way they are -but that IS the way they are and Emery knew it.

So he got what he basically wanted -was busted -and now whines and cries about how terribly 'unfair' it all is, and expects Cdns. and their gov't. to take up his cause and fight for his release.

fuhgeddaboudit, Emery -there's a few more important causes than YOU and your giant -sized ego.

I read an article even where Emery was bragging about how he "will be the most famous person incarcerated in a US prison - so they won't have the balls to kill me"

I really doubt the will be the most 'famous' and that anyone cares enough about him to try to 'kill him' as he apparently is accusing the US prison authorities of wanting to do.

Emery, you just are not that " important "
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 64
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/12/2010 1:23:10 PM
^^ the majority (at least 95%) of Cdns. judging by how they drive, also believe that laws about speed limits, stopping at stop signs, etc. are silly. according to MADD, at least 75% of Cdns. support lowering the current BAC that qualifies as crimi9nal drunk driving, to .05 % or lower. A majority of Cdns. in most polls support capital punishment

does that mean we can look forward to the repeal of these traffic laws some time very soon?

or to change the DUI laws?

or capital punishment laws ?

often laws are not set based on 'popular opinion'.

Canada is currently involved in a shooting war, has severe economic problems, etc., etc.

not sure that a punk like Emery deserves a lot of time or attention.

why should the gov. risk pissing off the US? maybe in retaliation the next time Canada wanted to extradite a criminal for the US they would extend the middle finger. (or, tell us to 'pound sand' -very grown up approach?)

of course Emery was silly if he thought the Cdn. gov. would intervene for him, if he paid attention to the news he'd know that. When William Sampson, dual Cdn. & British citizen was sentenced to death (beheading) in Saudi Arabia, the Cdn. gov. did NOTHING for him, it fell to the Brits to intervene for him.

I'd say that Sampson's situation was quite a bit more critical than poor ol' Marc Emery's.

facing death vs. a few years in jail.

Emery's activities were a crime on both sides of the border though the effective penalties were(are) much different


"in theory" it doesn't work on that 'what have you done for me lately" system. In practice? we are all human beings with human emotions /feelings, not automatons or robots -even the PEOPLE who run justice systems.

Did you get this worked up about Bill Sampson? if not, why not? he was only facing beheading..

why is Marc Emery a 'hero' deserving intervention but Bill Sampson was a 'nobody'?
couldn't risk pizzing off Saudi Arabia, source of light sweet crude oil?

Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 66
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/12/2010 2:04:21 PM

"in theory" it doesn't work on that 'what have you done for me lately" system. In practice? we are all human beings with human emotions /feelings, not automatons or robots -even the PEOPLE who run justice systems.

Did you get this worked up about Bill Sampson? if not, why not?

he was only facing beheading..for something he had not done, was totally innocent of

why is Marc Emery a 'hero' deserving intervention but Bill Sampson was a 'nobody'?

couldn't risk pizzing off Saudi Arabia, source of light sweet crude oil?

Canada has put several innocent people in jail for many years for crimes they did not commit (ranging from 10-25 years or so), including, but not limited to Donald Marshall, David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, Romeo Phillion, Thomas Sophonow, James Driskell, Steven Truscott, Robert Baltovich, et al..)

Baltovich was in prison for 8 years for something he did not do, but Ontario's A-G said he was 'not deserving of any compensation'.

several people in ON spent 5-8 years or more in jail convicted of killing their kids, based on faulty evidence from the f*cked up , twisted pathologist Charles Smith. Only surprising they were not killed in jail by other inmates as people labeled as 'kid-killers' are hated

I just can't get all worked up about Emery; there are far more egregious cases of 'injustice' if his is actually one, at all.

Is all of this indignation by so many, really all about 'justice' or more because you like to smoke dope and want to support your 'hero'?
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 67
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/12/2010 2:36:28 PM
I doubt that how Cdns. "feel" about the issue will make much difference, or posting on POF

are you all visiting, calling, or writing, or e-mailing, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson, demanding that this decision be reversed?

can't see it likely happening.

he's probably not reading POF Forums and going to change his mind based on what y'all post here. jst to let ya know, with all your fervor and enthusiasm and passion
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 69
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/30/2010 2:01:14 PM

The injustice of Marc Emery's is bad enough.

Michael Bryant, Ontario's Former Attorney General, got away with manslaughter after he killed a cyclist and somehow got the charges dropped even before a preliminary hearing could occur. Maybe the "outside prosecutor", a guy Bryant went to school with, might have has something to do with that.

I wrote a letter to Dalton McGuinty and the current Attorney General on that one... saying among other things that we do not have a Justice System... we only have a system that is a collection of laws that are unevenly and inconsistently applied.

And I read the book on William Sampson... a guy who was so disgusted with Canada and our country's lack of concern on Justice matters, that he renounced his Canadian Citizenship.

Rinse and repeat for the Maher Arar case... but at least in that case, Giuliano Zaccardelli's head rolled.

And don't you love how the RCMP officers where lying their @s

LOL, Emery was a big stud, talking tough about how he'd do his time when it seemed remote in the future

now that it's close he wants to weasel out

well smoking all that dope over time probably DID distort his sense of time, e c.
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 71
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 7/31/2010 8:55:10 AM

And this really has nothing to do with weaseling out. He was more than willing to pay the price for his alleged crimes HERE in Canada and has been previously stated that he in fact did put down pot seed seller on his tax forms under the occupation section.

He paid more in taxes then you have ever earned,

invested close to that amount funding a treatment centre for addictions to the really harmful drugs and spent way much more than that on political campaigns and knowledge rally's to get the truth out there.
But hey, you go with you think you know.

ummm, really? a bit "KNOW" that :"He paid more in taxes then you have ever earned..." exactly HOW?

ironic that you accuse me of blathering things I don't know about

but, hey stick with what you know.

what's your point anyway? paying taxes exempts anyone from prosecution .?

Conrad Black also no doubt paid way more in taxes than Emery ever earned ,

as did OJ Simpson, Marc Rich, Ken Lay (Enron CEO) , Bernie Ebbers (Worldcom CEO convicted of fraud) etc. etc. many people like this..

does that mean they all get a ''free pass'?
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 74
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/5/2010 9:17:47 AM
Here's an interesting piece by the guy that prosecuted Marc Emery:

I DON'T smoke pot. And I pretty much think people who do are idiots.

This certainly includes Marc Emery, the self-styled "Prince of Pot" from Canada whom I indicted in 2005 for peddling marijuana seeds to every man, woman and child with an envelope and a stamp. Emery recently pleaded guilty and will be sentenced this month in Seattle, where he faces five years in federal prison. If changing U.S. marijuana policy was ever Emery's goal, the best that can be said is that he took the wrong path.

As Emery's prosecutor and a former federal law-enforcement official, however, I'm not afraid to say out loud what most of my former colleagues know is true: Our marijuana policy is dangerous and wrong and should be changed through the legislative process to better protect the public safety.

Congress has failed to recognize what many already know about our policy of criminal prohibition of marijuana — it has utterly failed. Listed by the U.S. government as a "Schedule One" drug alongside heroin, the demand for marijuana in this country for decades has outpaced the ability of law enforcement to eliminate it. Perhaps this is because millions of Americans smoke pot regularly and international drug cartels, violent gangs and street pushers work hard to reap the profits.

Law-enforcement agencies are simply not capable of interdicting all of this pot and despite some successes have not succeeded in thwarting criminals who traffic and sell marijuana. Brave agents and cops continue to risk their lives in a futile attempt to enforce misguided laws that do not match the realities of our society.

These same agents and cops, along with prosecutors, judges and jailers, know we can't win by arresting all those involved in the massive importation, growth or distribution of marijuana, nor by locking up all the pot smokers. While many have argued the policy is unjust, few have addressed the dangerously potent black market the policy itself has created for exploitation by Mexican and other international drug cartels and gangs. With the proceeds from the U.S. marijuana black market, these criminals distribute dangerous drugs and kill each other (too often along with innocent bystanders) with American-purchased guns.

Our wrongheaded policy on marijuana has also failed to address the true health threat posed by its use. While I suspect nothing good can come to anyone from the chronic ingestion of marijuana smoke, its addictive quality and health risk pale in comparison with other banned drugs such as heroin, cocaine or meth. Informed adult choice, albeit a bad one, may well be preferable to the legal and policy meltdown we have long been suffering over marijuana.

Not only does our policy directly threaten our public safety and rest upon false medical assumptions, but our national laws are now in direct and irreconcilable conflict with state laws, including Washington state. So called "medical" marijuana reaches precious few patients and backdoor potheads mock legitimate medical use by glaucoma and chemotherapy patients. State laws are trumped by federal laws that recognize no such thing as "medicinal" or "personal" use and are no defense to arrests by federal agents and prosecution in federal courts.

So the policy is wrong, the law has failed, the public is endangered, no one in law enforcement is talking about it and precious few policymakers will honestly face the soft-on-crime sound bite in their next elections. What should be done?

• First, we need to honestly and courageously examine the true public-safety danger posed by criminalizing a drug used by millions and millions of Americans who ignore the law. Marijuana prohibition has failed — it's time for a new policy crafted by informed policymakers with the help of those in law enforcement who have risked their lives battling pot-purveying drug cartels and gangs.

• Second, let's talk about marijuana policy responsibly and with an eye toward sound science, not myth. We can start by acknowledging that our 1930s-era marijuana prohibition was overkill from the beginning and should be decoupled from any debate about "legalizing drugs." We should study and disclose the findings of the real health risks of prolonged use, including its influence and effect on juveniles.

• Third, we should give serious consideration to heavy regulation and taxation of the marijuana industry (an industry that is very real and dangerously underground). We should limit pot's content of the active ingredient THC (tetrahydrocannabinol), regulate its sale to adults who are dumb enough to want it and maintain criminal penalties for sales, possession or use by minors, drivers and boaters.

Federal criminal law should give way to regulation, while prohibiting interstate violation of federal laws consistent with this approach. In short, policymakers should strive for a regulatory and criminal scheme like the one guarding that other commodity that failed miserably at prohibition, alcohol.

As my law-enforcement colleagues know well from chasing bootleggers and mobsters, this new regulatory and criminal approach will still require many years of intensive investigation and enforcement before organized criminal elements are driven from the vast marijuana market. DEA and its law-enforcement partners must therefore remain well equipped and staffed to accomplish this task: to protect our families from truly dangerous drugs and to drive drug cartels, gangs and dope dealers from our society.
John McKay is a law professor at Seattle University and the former United States attorney in Seattle.

Even the guy that sent him to jail thinks the law is an ass here.
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 75
view profile
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/6/2010 10:27:52 AM
What's quite strange about this debate is that there's something going on right now in most parts of North America that's totally legal, and (I think) far more potentially dangerous in the long run to public health overall than what Emery's charged with.

Some of you may have heard of "Spice" , often touted as "legal marijuana", from the news. That product is generally banned in Europe, but it's quite easy to get legally here in North America.

For those of you not aware, it's effects come from a mix of chemicals (cannabicyclohexanol, JWH-018, JWH-073, and HU-210 ) that mimics THC's effect in the human brain. What's interesting is that this chemical looks nothing like THC when analyzed chemically.

In essence, it's synthetic cannabis.

It's sold as incense.

This has been going on for years, with most people in government and justice looking the other way.

Now no one knows the long term impact of these chemicals on humans, nor why they look differently chemically - yet mimic the marijuna effect so well. The "quality control" aspect of it's production carries some doubts, as it's essentially just chemicals sprayed on plant matter, many times in factories in China (and even the USA).

It's price, in Canada, is typically double what that of street marijuana is. That's due to taxes, it's "legality", and the fact that it's used by a lot of people who want to avoid positive drug tests, people like police officers, pilots, and those on probation.

Now, in the case of Emery, the only thing he was guilty of was selling seeds, which would grow into a natural plant - if they germinated, grew long enough, and were harvested. Now that plant may be indeed illegal, but it's a natural and rather harmless product.

On the other hand we currently have governments at all levels making some serious tax cash off of the selling of a legal product that no one is sure does not cause health problems (with long term use) , one that almost perfectly replicates the marijuana experience, and one that is hypocritical to accept as "legal" while condeming marijuana as illegal.

Governments in Europe have been quick to act in banning Spice, after having looked into concerns over it's potential long term health problems. Many of them can afford to do so thanks to far less restrictive/repressive marijuna laws, which means the "need" for the product is less.

Meanwhile, in this hall of mirrors of justice in North America, in most provinces and states this product is still legal ?

Faux marijuana is OK, and selling a natural seed to a willing buyer is illegal ?

If the law supposes that,” said Mr. Bumble,… “the law is a ass—a idiot. If that’s the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience.

CHARLES****NS, Oliver Twist

Joined: 1/5/2008
Msg: 76
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/6/2010 10:39:55 AM
Only a matter of time before marijuana is made legal. I do support the legalization of "weed" and other drugs even though I do not use any of them. People should be able to do what they want to their bodies even if it's bad for them. In the end not everyone wants to be "saved". And it simply cost to much money trying to change their minds and fighting drug lords who are simply supplying a product that is in demand.
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 77
view profile
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/6/2010 2:31:30 PM
One could also make a rather good argument that Emery's customers in fact were people that no longer required to resort to criminal elements to procure their marijuana, in fact hurting their sales. Given the price of those seeds, I doubt those same gangs were using his services to procure theirs.

From 1998 until his arrest in 2005, Emery paid provincial and federal taxes as a "marijuana seed vendor" totalling nearly $600,000.

Last fall, city police used U.S.  military undercover agents to gather evidence for a marijuana bust at Hemp B.C.  and the Cannabis Cafe.

Court documents showed that four U.S.  navy undercover agents were used to try to buy marijuana and then smoke it at the internationally known emporiums. [i/]

The four agents were named in an application for a search warrant that led to an April 30 raid on the stores.  The documents showed the Naval Criminal Investigative Service agents worked in a joint operation with Vancouver police in April.

The Justice Department swore three charges of possession and sale of drug paraphernalia against Francis.  The trial is set for July 19.  More than 3,400 American sailors from the USS Constellation and the USS Rainier were in Vancouver in April.

I get by, with a little help from my friends ?
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 79
view profile
Canadian Marc Emery is going to US jail.
Posted: 9/10/2010 10:17:45 PM

The documents showed the Naval Criminal Investigative Service agents worked in a JOINT OPERATION with Vancouver police in April.

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