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 AUTHOR
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 101
Health care Page 5 of 46    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
No I want people like you in North Korea where you can have a knock alongside your head that might have an effect 12 or 16 years of education didn't. California was the richest state in the richest country in the world. Your ideas have turned it into a basket case with a $60B deficiet and a ranking of 47th in education. Your belief system is a cancer and abd carriers of same are to be identified.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 102
Health care
Posted: 10/20/2009 11:10:58 PM
Really? I thought it was prop. 13 and our newly found conservative top budget priority: prisons. Combine that with legislative term limits so that the only people willing to represent us are hacks of whatever stripe, and then you tell me what actual good your conservative agenda has accomplished here.

The only reason this state is still afloat at all is because of Stanford and the venture capitalists. Why do you think they draw from the Bay Area and not from Socal or the Central Valley? Open minds are productive and inventive. They _like_ diversity and appreciate pragmatism. People like that can actually hold two opposing viewpoints in mind and draw the best from each. What do you think inventiveness _is?_

Just exactly how many thousands of times have you trotted out your same old lines? When was the last time you actually considered a new thought? And no, rereading Ayn is not entertaining anything new. It's the same old nonsense.

The most damning thing about you and your nasty perspective, the one thing that undercuts your credibility completely, is your propensity to wish ill upon those who disagree with you. I would never wish North Korea on anyone, nor the tender mercies of any totalitarian regime. But you seem to feel that anyone who challenges the hegemony of your precious worldview deserves the fate that you so obviously fear.

No, I wish you every happiness. I just hope you can recognize it when it bites you on the ass.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 103
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/21/2009 12:49:40 AM
I think it's pretty obvious what's ruined this state--30 to 40 years of dereliction, by several U.S. presidents, of their duty to enforce our immigration laws. There's nothing these people haven't harmed, from our schools to our physical environment to our hospitals to our roads to our sewers. Most of them were scraped off the bottom of the barrel, and a good many are criminals. About 30% of the inmates in federal prison are illegal aliens.

These invaders have been an enormous drain on California, using many times more social services--WIC, free emergency room care for the whole family's sore throats and earaches, free schools for their droves of kids, etc. than they'll ever contribute. They cost us many billions each year. We should secure our southern border, set about deporting them all, and stick to it--even if it takes a decade or more.
 MermaidSari
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 104
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:40:04 PM
Coast -- Actually, California is broke.



Ace...

Match brings up viable government statistics about the astronomic funds spent in health care spent on non-residents. Many non-residents come to the U.S. to avoid the pharmacy costs. Ultimately this is money out of yours and my pocket books and a huge part of the increase in medical costs today.

Shall we ignore this fact?

So who really cares about others or its citizens?

Many illegal residents huddle together in unsanitary conditions. Is your door open to these ones? Shall you tell the person struggling to get by to open his doors to these ones and join in on living conditions that are not healthy? If the world or any political party were truly altruistic, then there would be no nation formed. Taking this philosophical concept on a micro level...we would not have families, but we'd all be one happy family...correct.

Yet, it's a fallacy to pretend to care while stealing from one's 'own' neighbor...and that is how governments were formed if being honest. Does the one who is taking from others...care about others? Normally with human nature there has to be an 'intrinsic' benefit. The same is true of governments.

In short, the U.S. is a republic -- not a democracy. It as created by wealthy and educated men with their own interests in mind...not merely what we read on the declaration of Independence.

We do not live in a world (let alone a nation) where there is an equal distribution of 'anything' let alone medical care. The wealthy will always fair better. They do in Canada where they are still able to pay for personal physicians.

National health care will not change this. It will not remove the haves and the have nots -- only individual strive for success changes a person's lot in life.

You and me will pay for National Health Care and still people will not receive 'timely' care. The government are not medical professionals and regulating 'care' in any area takes on 'time' (bureaucratic time) and expenses (you are listening to someone 'you' pay to spend millions of your tax dollars) ...and zero guarantee of 'true' health care needs being met. Have you visited a free clinic (they exist now). The doctors are over worked and underpaid. If excelling in medicine -- they usually leave (for their own intrinsic rewards).

Consider the risks and benefits of a lesser quality of health care and look beyond politics. My Mom would be dead today if I didn't have the choices we do today and she had to wait on Government approval for treatment (which they wouldn't approve due to cost). She survived lung cancer while every 8 seconds someone is dying of the same.

If equality were granted...we would still have inequality as we are all given our own lot in life. Some do nothing with it -- others excel and change their lives. This has been since the beginning of time and will continue to exist regardless of what any politician or government promises.

Children in a candy store: It's not good for you regardless if it is free. If it is produced though...somebody is going to have to pay for it and in the case of this administrations' direction with spending...it will be the next generation (your/our children).

And there will be no biting of tushies (unless done in a loving, gentle manner).
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 105
Health care
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:55:52 PM
Mermaid we've subsized and enabled a poverty class for four decades. Not only have we encouraged an underclass, we've given them a sense of entitlement and angeered them that the deck was stacked. Now we have more of them than us. We are anywhere between $70-100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, the schools don't work, the institutions are untrustworthy and a bunch of aging pothead 60's pothead hippies are playing viva la revolution with an empty suited charmboy President.


Our educated class has become attorneys, or social workers, or otherwise engaged in overhead related activities when we need engineers and managers to work our way out of this mess. Not only does this overhead class not help, it hinders citing arcane monopoly and union regs. You think China, Russia, India and Brazil have an educated class bent on stopping their productive sector? You think in this world economy our problems involve monopolies? or Unions?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 106
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:19:45 PM
Oh, come on. Why can't we all just serve each other, push papers back and forth, and make nothing? Building bridges and reactors and stuff is so--like yesterday! We can bring in Chinese and Indians to figure out what size beam to use, or similar dumb details. We're too busy having meetings about organization and partnering and mergers, and which feng shui consultant to hire about the layout of our offices. It's for sure lawyers don't accomplish anything! Can't even put gangsters in jail!
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 107
Health care
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:24:53 PM
Well some people HAVE to be lawyers but just think what a great engineer you could have been lol.
But the larger point is a call to action and stop with pretending it's 1960 still and we're the only country not destroyed by WW2.
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 108
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History
Health care
Posted: 10/21/2009 11:54:46 PM
Securing our borders isn't the problem. As long as our labor laws have no teeth, and employers can get away with hiring illegal aliens, they'll find a way to get here. There'll be more tunnels, more fraud and more high-tech ways of them getting in here, but they will. The government has turned a blind eye because illegal aliens and the cheap labor they bring have encouraged construction and low food prices. We should probably bite the bullet and pay more for food and construction.
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 109
Health care
Posted: 10/27/2009 10:59:19 AM
From what I have seen securing our borders is much more easily done than trying to enforce immigration internally.
Yes there will be tunnels and who knows what else. But it is still much much easier.

Example. CBP catches much more drugs than DEA. It has to do with the fact that CBP watches everything that crosses in the course of trying to enforce illegal immigration. The DEA's focus is within the borders. CBP's seizures ( money and property )exceeds it's budget.

Besides; the destruction of the $$ ought make American labor more competitive. In retrospect I'm not clear what the strong dollar policy was supposed to accomplish besides benefit the banks.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 111
Health care
Posted: 11/1/2009 4:16:07 PM
No problem. Let's dismantle the unneeded regulation that keeps health care insurance from being openly competitive in the market. Those regulations might have been needed to make markets and keep insurers honest, and some degree of regulation probably is still necessary. However, exemption from antitrust and restrictions from competing across state lines on price certainly aren't.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 112
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 7:13:35 AM
Well the idiots did it, just hope the Senate has more sense.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 113
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 9:32:32 AM
Just wait until the Democrat Representatives who voted for this bill start hearing from their constituents about it. And the Democrats in the Senate will take notice. It will be much harder to get this bill through the Senate.
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 114
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:05:01 AM
"Is govt health care constitutional???"

It will come under the interpretation of the phrase 'provide for the general welfare' which has been held up as a justification for such programs with some disagreeing with this interpretation as shown on this ink: http://eh.net/bookreviews/library/0887
 cncgandolf
Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 115
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:06:43 AM
" Just wait until the Democrat Representatives who voted for this bill start hearing from their constituents about it. "

They have been hearing. The pro-health democrats have a very highly organized phoning and in-person petitioning and web based petitioning system in place. That campaign will now move from contacting House Reps to contacting Senators. Those who contribute across state lines will also be pressuring across state lines.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 116
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:51:46 AM
You Demo-wits should petition pelosi to pass a bill to get someone to cut and perhaps chew your food for you also. What a pack of useless losers share this country with decent independent, free Americans.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 117
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Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 2:51:52 PM

Without lawsuits, they are free to deny coverage all they want.


Not really. Every state regulates insurers through an administrative agency. They're not just free to decide they don't want to pay any claims at all. They're responsible for providing reasonable services in return for the premiums they charge.

The original role of health insurance companies was to insure people against losing their life savings because of an unexpected serious illness. Just as other kinds of insurance companies do, they were able to calculate various risks and charge accordingly. But then states began to respond to pressure from people who wanted health insurers to pay for all sorts of other procedures. That process has gone so far that in some states, insurers must pay for procedures like acupuncture and therapeutic massage.

Once employers started provide health coverage, it became part of their employees' overall compensation--meaning you got it at the expense of your take home pay. And with most people no longer paying their doctor bills out of their own pocket, everyone along the line had an incentive to pad them. With tort lawyers like John Edwards making fortunes off getting juries to fall for highly questionable malpractice claims, malpractice insurers advised doctors and hospitals to go overboard to be on the safe side. And so, they ordered more procedures rather than less.

Why not? The insurance company's paying for it. Of course they weren't--they just increased their premiums accordingly, to stay above water. All of that has inflated the price of medical care. And now, we're told, more government involvement will solve a problem that was created by government in the first place.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 118
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 4:57:41 PM
This passage from Justice Frankfurter's dissenting opinion in United States v. Kahrigher, 345 U.S. 22 (1953) is worth thinking about, in view of this bill's use of a tax penalty to coerce private citizens to participate in its scheme of socialized medicine.


"When oblique use is made of the taxing power as to matters which substantively are not within the powers delegated to Congress, the Court cannot shut its eyes to what is obviously, because designedly, an attempt to control conduct which the Constitution left to the responsibility of the States, merely because Congress wrapped the legislation in the verbal cellophane of a revenue measure.

Concededly the constitutional questions presented by such legislation are difficult. On the one hand, courts should scrupulously abstain from hobbling congressional choice of policies, particularly when the vast reach of the taxing power is concerned. On the other hand, to allow what otherwise is excluded from congressional authority to be brought within it by casting legislation in the form of a revenue measure could . . . offer an easy way for the legislative imagination to control any one of the great number of subjects of public interest, jurisdiction of which the States have never parted with . . . ."




Doesn't Congress's constitutional power to tax have to have *some* limit? What's to prevent tax revenue from being used to justify Congress in controlling almost anything it otherwise has no constitutional authority to control? Why couldn't Congress, for example, impose a tax--say 10%--on each new single-family house built anywhere in the U.S., in order to protect the environment by discouraging "urban sprawl?" So what if zoning's strictly a matter of state and local law? You'll live where and how your government knows is best for all of us, shut up, and like it.
 rococco
Joined: 10/17/2009
Msg: 119
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 8:39:52 PM
Well, I don't think we should sweat it all that much. I mean, if it passes, its just showtime, you know what I mean? Its like we are being trained to obey the government not for the sake of preventing crime and a safe place where we can live, but for the sake of someone's profit margins, and let me tell you, that's where the buck stops. Local governments must find their own way out of funding medical services for the underserved--maybe parking ticket proceeds are handy for closing the gaps? This is a high price to pay for Lady Liberty's welcoming arms. I won't stand for it. If this goes down, I'll leave the country--or I'll stay and fight--but I'm not going to be forced to do anything by anyone's government outside of securing a passport. Taxes are quite enough of a burden. I will fight, and I know I'm not the only one. If they think they will get away with this DC will be quite surprised when we all revolt. I suppose then that "national security" measures will keep us from revolting too much, eh? Well to this I say give me liberty or give me death. I will die a free woman.

Skoo, if what's happening is over your head, then can you have a solid opinion? Man, let me sum this up for you; we are screwed if this happens. The VA is a benefit for those who enlist to protect this country. I would much rather die a natural death for lack of health services than to be forced to pay. Argh. This is what happens when materialism means more than freedom and liberty. Its sickening!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 120
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 8:50:37 PM
^^^^^Something tells me you may not have to pack your things quite yet. I read yesterday that one of the pages in the Senate, when he heard the President say he was confident he'd be signing a health care bill by the end of the year, responded this way: "Yeah, right--and I want a pony for Christmas."
 rococco
Joined: 10/17/2009
Msg: 121
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 8:56:09 PM
Well, that's good. What the heck is up with Obama's confidence? Mastering the Art of Persuasion? What about what the freaking people want? I can't believe him. I am saddened because I trusted him to do what we wanted, not what he wanted. I feel like he is trying to run over my will without due process. [Note to Obama: Let us decide what we want, be a leader and listen Obama!] Anyway, I was comforted when I read this in a yahoo news story on the matter: "The House bill is dead on arrival in the Senate," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said dismissively." I hope, I hope, I hope.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 122
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 9:31:50 PM
If that bill dies in the Senate, it may be a fatal blow for Obama, too. He made the mistake, I think, of investing too much of his prestige in this issue. Looking at the seats his party may lose in Congress next fall, I think he may be cooked already. We may see him just plod through his last two years on his way out.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 123
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 9:57:46 PM
There is nothing Obumbler is doing that he didn't say he was going to do. Were you not listening? Do you not understand a man stands upon the shoulders of those he is associates with? Studies? Do you not realize the impact on a child of not knowing his father, and the part he knew was abusive/ Do you not understand the impact of having a whacko wingnut mother like he had? The person experiencing these things will grow to become exactly what he is, a brittle, inauthentic person, lacking judgment, understanding of the things that made for American exceptionalism, in fact hating those things?

I'm more surprised at those surprised than I am at Obama, he told me everything I needed to know.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 124
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History
Health care
Posted: 11/8/2009 10:30:43 PM

I'm more surprised at those surprised than I am at Obama, he told me everything I needed to know.


I'm with you on that. A lot of people saw only what they wanted to see--nothing new about that, unfortunately. And a lot of them only knew what they saw in the heavily biased mainstream news media. This man's done all sorts of things they've completely covered up (e.g. releasing senior Iranian terrorists responsible for killing hundred of our servicemen in Iraq) that are far worse than things they blew up into scandals during the last administration.
 rococco
Joined: 10/17/2009
Msg: 125
Health care
Posted: 11/9/2009 9:47:27 AM
Its a lazy solution, one that makes it possible for special interest groups and bureaucrats to roam like free range chickens in our lives.
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