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 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 51
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How male circumcision hurts women Page 3 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

LOL, at informed consent of infants.

BRB, not feeding my kid until he's 21 so he can decide what to eat himself.


The difference there is that food, clothing, shelter and healthcare form the necessities of life. It is generally considered a parental obligation to provide the necessities of life.

Cutting off a natural part is not about providing the necessities of life.

That argument is bunkum.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 52
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 5:34:23 PM

Do you understand the pain a Full Grown Man would have if He did that?
It is Crazy Talk to even speak of something like that.


That makes no sense physiologically. Do you suddenly sprout neurones into the foreskin after puberty?

If anything it is easier to remove adult foreskin than something with a tight phimosis. Some surgeons (around where I work) don't even use anaesthetic in infants- they ligate the foreskin with a plastic ring and some string.

An adult would probably ask for anaesthetic.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 53
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 5:46:07 PM

To reply would get me kick off here so I'm not going too as you should know my reply.


No, it means you're unable to articulate your viewpoint without, presumably, some ad hominem argument.

The only reason you've given for circumcision is because someone did it to you, and because you think it's more painful in an adult (which doesn't make any sense physiologically).

You haven't given a reason why you feel an infant should have their autonomy taken away from them.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 54
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:03:16 PM

Then I will have no problem speak The Truth but I'm not wanting to get the Admin upset so I will say no more.


I don't see why any debate should get admin upset, unless your argument was based on this:


one replies to the posted subject matter, not a profile critique of a poster and anything, less than founded suppositions about a poster. "


I'm not interesting in sending private messages, just to be verbally abused, because it doesn't support your proposition in the slightest. Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 55
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:12:08 PM
I'm happy to hear it, but you haven't said why you think it's "true", other than it just is.

And what is true exactly? That infants feel less pain? You can explain the physiological differences between neurones in infant foreskin vs adult foreskin, or perhaps their perception of pain? Maybe an infants central nervous system isn't developed enough to feel pain. I dunno- they still seem to cry when I poke them with needles.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 56
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:28:06 PM

Its the Underlining cause behind the why you care till your ready to talk about that there is nothing I can do for you.


now you're being cryptic, but that's fine. I don't particularly want you to "do" anything for me. Unless you want to mow my lawn, but you're a bit far away. Or you meant the underlining in my carpet? I have a rental property that needs a new underlay.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 57
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:35:56 PM
What is the truth? You can't even articulate an argument. Please give us a reason why something is 'True"

Start with the neuro-anatomy of the foreskin :-)

Ta
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 58
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Posted: 1/7/2013 6:51:12 PM
now you've piqued my curiosity. Why on earth would I get upset?

You can keep being cryptic, but I'm interested in the 'truth' on the neuro-anatomy of the foreskin, and also why the 'truth' gives you the right to mutilate a childs genitalia.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 59
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:55:07 PM
I'm work in the medical field.

It goes against every tenet of medical ethics.

That is my interest.

Now can you please enlighten us on the 'Truth'
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 60
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 7:11:36 PM
If you're Asian, most families expect you to be a lawyer, doctor, accountant, engineer, or something silly like that. Going to Uni for 6yrs is a good way to delay making life plans, when you're 17.

Now back to the 'truth', please explain how infants feel less pain, and why they should have body parts removed without informed consent?
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 61
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/7/2013 8:09:41 PM
We've already gone through the cleanliness argument. There is no issue with hygiene in uncircumcised males. If they don't pull their foreskin back when washing, they are likely deficient in other areas of hygiene also.

You are unable to provide any reasoning as to why infants feel less pain than adults, or why you should have the right to mutilate a child without informed consent. Therefore I take it you concede on both points.


A family member did not have it done and has had nothing but problems.
As a kid he was always going to see the doctor.


What did he see the doctor for? Balanitis? UTIs? The numbers needed to treat for both conditions (with prophylactic circumcision) are miniscule, and they are easily treated anyway. It would be akin to cutting off all your fingernails to prevent paronychia.
 JosephPerkins
Joined: 12/3/2012
Msg: 62
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/16/2013 9:07:15 AM

Dude! Perhaps you should look up the articles that show that circumcision cuts the rate of transmission of stds. If you are going to give us a crock of crap on something, at least give both sides of the issue.


Bull puckey,How's lopping off some skin gonna cut the rate of cuts the rate of transmission of stds,when the penis just like the rest of the human body is covered in layer fo skin already?

The truth is if people would wrap iut up are better yet use some self control the rate of the transmission of stds would be cut.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 63
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/16/2013 2:52:01 PM

Bull puckey,How's lopping off some skin gonna cut the rate of cuts the rate of transmission of stds,when the penis just like the rest of the human body is covered in layer fo skin already?


It has been shown to reduce the spread of venereal disease, but that's a silly reason for circumcision. The most common ones can easily be treated with antibiotics, there is no need to mutilate a childs genitalia for a (trivial) decrease in relative risk.

It's like choosing to give yourself a needlestick injury with a solid needle instead of a hollow needle.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 64
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/16/2013 2:53:34 PM

How about it just comes down to I am the adult parent and I get to make the choice of what I feel is best for my family and since its not against the law and never will be I chose circumsicion.


Is it also a parents right to abuse children?
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 65
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/20/2013 12:07:25 AM

Absolutely..this div has startd a thread without any knowledge about it..it is a proven scientific fact that circumcision can stop std's.


It's also a scientific fact that aeroplanes can fly. Without a pilot that's not useful to anyone. Scientific facts without cognitive input is useless.

Most venereal diseases are treatable with antibiotics. Why mutilate a child, to reduce the relative risk (you don't prevent completely) for something that is more effectively prevented with barrier contraception?

For infections like HIV, to use circumcision as HIV prophylaxis during intercourse is like choosing to needlestick yourself with a solid suture needle rather than a hollow syringe needle.

Good luck!
 JosephPerkins
Joined: 12/3/2012
Msg: 66
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/22/2013 1:22:46 PM

ur penis is easier to manage in terms of cleaniness



Thanks dude I really needed a laugh! J/k ,j/k

But i will say this i disagree with you.I'm not circumcised and I have no problems in the cleaniness,it just boils down to people either being too lazy to wash properly,or like a freind of mine just hop in the show and let the water run thinking that's all they need to get the grime,dirt and sweat off of them.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 67
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/23/2013 9:53:18 AM

The current anti-circumcision movement is being pushed by anti-semitic groups. It began as an overt anti-Jewish movement and has since evolved into a pseudo-scientific movement with people unaware of who began it.


It has nothing to do with religion, or which religious or non-religious group practices it, you are mutilating a child.

Whether you have jewish, christian or muslim foreskin...does an infant get to choose their religion?

As an aside, I saw someone today with circumcised foreskin- there was a difference in skin pigmentation between the upper and lower penis. Notwithstanding the missing foreskin, it looks pretty disfiguring.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 68
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:03:40 AM

So where would you draw the line? Total hands-off newborns lest they be changed from how they emerged? Why don't you go look into it to see just how much goes on after a child's born as to medical intervention. Some things to google:

-Vitamin K shot
-Eye drops
-in the rare instance of hermpahroditism, doctors may remove genitalia 'forcing' one sex or the other
-Hepatitis B vaccine
-multiple newborn screening tests


As I've explained before, provision of healthcare is the responsibility of the parent, along with food, shelter, educatation clothing etc. They are part of the necessities of life. Vaccines, Vit K etc is part of that.

Removing a childs normal anatomy for no medical benefit is mutilation. Compare that with removing an appendix when they have appendicitis- that is life-saving and done for medical benefit.

In terms of assigning gender in hermaphrodism, it is done again for the childs benefit, although in the past we did not have the benefit of karyotyping.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 69
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:49:40 AM
I've already addressed all of those.

The benefits are so small, and the treatment so drastic, they are little more than specious arguments. The reason that people circumcise children is not for medical benefit, it is for their own religious or personal conviction.

Let look at each one:

- UTIs- firstly, it is uncommon in boys. Why remove a body part for something that can be treated with antibiotics? Depending on which study you look at, the numbers needed to treat range from 90 to 195. That means you might have to mutilate up to 195 children to prevent one urinary tract infection, which you can clear up with a 5 day course of antibiotics. Drastic much?

- Penile cancer- vanishingly rare. Incidence of 1 in 250,000, and the NNT would be even smaller still. Given that many of these are caused by HPV infection, and we are now routinely immunising girls with the HPV vaccine, expect HPV transmission to decrease and the incidence of penile cancer to decrease further still.
You would gain a far higher mortality benefit if you removed the breasts of pubescent girls, because the incidence and mortality rate in breast cancer is far higher. 1 in 9 women develop breast cancer, which kills many, many orders of magnitude more people than penile cancer.

- HIV transmission- most of the statistics come from Africa, which has an extremely high prevalence and incidence of HIV. Without going into the relevance to developed countries, it seems like a dubious way of practicing safe sex. Kind of like choosing to give yourself a needlestick injury from a solid suture needle instead of a hollow syringe needle. Barrier contraception works better than circumcision.

In terms of your free choice argument- an infant does not have the choice what religion or practices they follow. If it was the norm for a particular religion to abuse children, does it make it acceptable in a civil society?
 allthegoodnamesrtaken1
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 70
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/23/2013 12:09:23 PM

Removing a childs normal anatomy for no medical benefit is mutilation. Compare that with removing an appendix when they have appendicitis- that is life-saving and done for medical benefit


Summing up this entire issue......THIS is the bottom line ^
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 71
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Posted: 1/23/2013 12:50:38 PM

Bottom line is it's already a choice. Issue at hand deals with outlawing it removing the choice for all because of the agenda of a few.


Depends on the society you live in. It's hardly the minority 'agenda' in many countries, like NZ or Australia. It's the exception.

You could probably say the same about womens rights, gay rights, slavery, and all the other things when they were on the 'agenda'

It goes against every single tenet of medical ethics.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 72
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/23/2013 3:54:06 PM
Having experienced both, I kinda prefer the uncut version myself :)
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 73
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Posted: 1/27/2013 1:40:03 PM

It's not illegal so if the parent want to circumsize their child they can!!! No debait need.


Once upon a time slavery was legal, homosexuality was illegal, and women weren't allowed to vote.

Just because it is legal to circumcise doesn't make it any less archaic or ethically deplorable.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 74
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Posted: 2/23/2013 6:49:34 PM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 2/24/2013 6:52:50 AM

Yes, I know some of you believe you know far better than the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the World Health Organization, but please don't label me as "archaic" and "deplorable" for caring for my own son's health according to what the currently-available evidence says is best.


It is certainly not the position of the Paediatrics division of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians.

Blindly following what someone else says without looking at the numbers or reasons means that you are just following their opinion of what constitutes 'benefits outweighing the risks', instead of thinking for yourself.

The World Health Organisation recommends it as a public health measure in countries with high prevalence of HIV (we're talking parts of Africa here). This is their position on much of the developed world:
"In countries where the HIV epidemic is concentrated in specific population groups such as sex workers, injecting drug users or men who have sex with men, there would be limited public health impact from promoting male circumcision in the general population. "

Now firstly, I'm assuming you don't live in Africa, which has several times the prevalence and incidence of HIV. Using circumcision as a means to prevent HIV is like using a glove to reduce your risk of HIV with a needlestick injury. You wouldn't jab yourself knowingly despite wearing a glove. Would you have unprotected intercourse with someone who is HIV positive because they are circumcised?

HPV- The HPV vaccine seems a someone less draconian or barbaric way to reduce spread, than mutilating foreskin

UTIs- extremely uncommon in boys, and something that can be treated with antibiotics. Do you amputate your toe when you develop a paronychia?

Penile cancer- vanishingly rare. And will become even more vanishingly rare with the HPV vaccine.
 tallshyman
Joined: 1/1/2008
Msg: 75
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/23/2013 7:22:48 PM
men can buy foreskin restoration devices off the internet. it will be nice to have a foreskin so I will not need to put lube on my penis when having sex with a woman.
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