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 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 76
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How male circumcision hurts women Page 4 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
Posted By: tallshyman on 2/24/2013 1:22:48 PM

men can buy foreskin restoration devices off the internet. it will be nice to have a foreskin so I will not need to put lube on my penis when having sex with a woman.


Not quite the same. Like having a mastectomy and then doing breast reconstruction.

I've given reasons against each of the medical issues used to justify circumcision in my post: 1- 24- 2013, 5:49 AM. Then I get a rebuttal cutting and paste from funnygirl_13 merely restating all the issues I've already addressed. It's a circular argument.

On the topic of breasts, here is another thing to think about. If one can justify a tiny health benefits, why not prophylactic mastectomy? There will almost certainly be a higher mortality benefit from all women having mastectomies, because the incidence and mortality from breast cancer is far higher, than something as rare as rocking horse manure, as penile cancer.

The difference between mastectomies and circumcision in infants, is that females with breasts have a greater capacity to make an informed decision. Some do choose to have prophylactic mastectomies (in particular if they carry the BRCA 1 and 2 genes, which have >50% lifetime risk of breast cancer). But to apply it all women? Kind of like justifying circumcision to prevent HIV spread in a developed country, based on relative risk from studies done in Africa.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 77
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/24/2013 7:42:50 AM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 2/24/2013 5:51:27 PM


You appear to equate "thinking for myself" with blindly following your opinion. Again, I choose to concur with AAP, WHO and ACOG -- for the reasons cited in the article.


Thinking for yourself' means rebutting an argument with reasoning, not "because the American Academy of Paediatrics said such and such". Their policy statement is hardly universal among paediatricians, and has many doctors around the world scratching their heads.

I have already addressed most of the points- from UTIs, to Penile Cancers, to HIV in my post on 1- 24- 2013 5:49
You're asking me to address those points again in your cut and paste...I'd just be repeating myself. They are the same things I would ask any American paediatrician to justify.

I won't address the cost-benefit analysis- there is no point without knowing which economic parameters are used. Do they base it on QALYs'?

You also misunderstand the WHO position, which is that there is limited public health benefit in countries with low prevalence of HIV.

Lets go back to basic medical ethics:
1) Informed consent- there is none when you are an infant
2) Beneficence- I addressed that in various posts, with examples including NNT ratios from the same studies used to justify morbidity benefits. Call me old fashioned, but I think mutilating 195 children to prevent a single UTI, which can be treated with antibiotics, to be a tad extreme.
3) Non-malefiscence- someone named Hippocrates said something along the lines of 'first do no harm'. You're placing a child under anaesthetic and infection risks for an unnecessary procedure
4) Autonomy- again, there is none when you are an infant.


You acknowledged that we don't live in Africa, where HIV is far more prevalent. Does this mean these poor people are irrelevant to this debate and we should not worry about them? Or would you condone the practice of circumcision / "barbaric mutilation" in African populations?


Nope, because beneficence is significantly greater, which changes the argument. It would be like an adult consenting for their child to have an appendicectomy for appendicitis. Taking out ones appendix when it is inflamed has a clear medical indication; circumcision as a HIV public health measure in Africa is still not unreasonable. Removing foreskin to prevent HIV transmission in a developed country....perhaps you care to comment on the relative-risk-reduction?

I'm not sure how Catholicism comes into it, but I do find your views as intransigent. Circumcision to prevent STIs is questionable in a society where the benefits are minimal, and there are better ways to achieve it.
 SoberAffair
Joined: 11/29/2012
Msg: 78
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/25/2013 3:11:23 PM
Here is an excellent video on circumcision from Georgetown University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM-SkwGEf0. It is a long video, but any person who is opposed to circumcision should watch it...especially if you plan to circumcize your child. Be informed.

Personally, I prefer uncircumcized men. They have more natural girth and, because of their own extra sensitivity, are often more gentle when performing oral sex on women.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 79
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/25/2013 3:14:38 PM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 2/26/2013 5:38:30 AM


How are my views intransigent?

I am not trying to dictate which choices you should be allowed to make for your own children. I am simply asking that you afford me the same consideration, and not refer to my actions as "archaic" and "deplorable.


Because you've taken that choice away from them, and you aren't able to debate the reasons behind it, aside from 'the American Academy of Paediatrics' said so.

If it was so important as a health measure, why not wait until they can make informed consent?
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/25/2013 8:22:48 PM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 2/26/2013 1:57:21 PM

So would this be an example of you blindly following what someone says without looking at the numbers or reasons, or an example of thinking for yourself? You challenge nothing in the above statement. Why? How can you ignore that male circumcision reduces the probability of contracting the HIV virus in all populations by 60 percent? How is this not significant? And are you of the opinion that the lives of sex workers, injecting drug users and men who have sex with men are not important?


Because prevalence and incidence are just as important as the relative risk.

For instance, a disease which is extremely common like coronary artery disease- something which increases your risk factor by a small amount might be significant. It's why doctors recommend smoking cessation in cardiovascular disease- it doubles your relative risk.

On the other hand, something like venous thromboembolism is relative uncommon, so even if you tripled or quadrupled the risk, it's still relatively insignificant. Oral contraceptive pills increase the relative risk several fold, yet they are prescribed to patients because the risks vs benefit is still acceptable to many.

If you expect your children to be sex workers or IV drug users, yep, sure...they might gain greater benefit in prophylactic circumcision. But perhaps it's a choice they should make themselves when they start work in the sex industry.


Circumcision, when performed by a skilled physician on neonates under sterile conditions, is a quick, safe, minor procedure. A double mastectomy is major surgery, from which it takes weeks to recover. Women with BRCA mutations also have an increased risk of ovarian cancer -- so they would need to consider a prophylactic oophorectomy on top of the mastectomy. I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but your comparison
is over the top.


I didn't mention that many circumcisions in Africa are far from sterile, which negates much of the beneficence of the procedure.

Anyway, I was only using a mastectomy as an example. But even accounting for the increased surgical risks and recovery time, the risk/benefit ratio would still be in favour. 1 in 9 women develop breast cancer, which has a relatively high mortality rate associated. In comparison, the HIV prevalence in NZ and Australia is 1 in 1000, and incidence of 4 in 100,000. Protease inhibitors haven't been around long enough to find out how long it extends the lives of someone with HIV, but it's has probably changed the outlook to something similar to chronic diseases like diabetes.

In any case, women with breasts have a greater capacity to make an informed decision.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/26/2013 1:04:47 PM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 2/27/2013 12:29:55 AM

Members of organizations such as the AAP and the ACOG have taken the Hippocratic Oath, swearing to practice medicine ethically and honestly -- or more specifically, "to abstain from doing harm." These principles, combined with a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence, have led the AAP to revise its policy statement on circumcision.


The Hippocratic Oath is equally archaic. 'To abstain from harm', is about the only useful tenet still used in medical ethics today. The Hippocratic Oath forbids surgery as well as termination of pregnancies.

I don't know about where you live, but it is neither a legal obligation nor a requirement of medical schools to take the Hippocratic oath in Australasia and most of the commonwealth. Doctors are guided by the professional code of their national body, and the laws of their country.


That you are vehemently opposed to said policy leads me to believe that you either believe there is a major conspiracy afoot -- or that you are arrogant enough to believe you inherently know better than they do (accusing people who base their decisions upon the organizations' findings of failing to "think for themselves"). So which one is it?


No, it means I'm able to debate something based on the actual information available, not because 'the AAP thinks it's a good idea'. What if they told you that iphones were better than android phones? There is a degree of subjectivity when they say benefits outweigh the risks.

I'm just pointing out that those numbers are incredibly stretched, and even so, most of those conditions present later in life, when one is perfectly capable of making an informed decision. Forget the Hippocratic Oath- they should look at modern medical ethical principals like autonomy, informed consent, non-maleficence and beneficence.

Why are you so opposed to the idea of informed consent and autonomy? The AAP aren't the only medical authority in the world, and one of the few (or only) with a positive stance on circumcision in the developed world.


Far fewer than those suffering from heart disease or breast cancer. Yet these numbers still seem far from "extremely uncommon" or "insignificant" to me.


Absolute numbers aren't useful- what's the population of the US vs Australia or New Zealand? It's the relative risk and incidence that matter. If the incidence in the US is about 0.012%, that's about 12 cases in a hundred thousand. Going by the number you provided earlier of 60% relative risk reduction, that's about 7 cases per hundred thousand. So you have to mutilate 100,000 children to prevent 7 cases of HIV. Incredibly low numbers....you'd be better off advocating mastectomies as a public health measure instead.


Not realistic to expect people who abuse and disrespect their bodies to choose prophylactic circumcision. Let's be serious.


So you're advocating some form of medical paternalism- we know what's best for you? How about forcing all obese people to have bariatric surgery? That would have greater public health benefit than something as equivocal as circumcision for HIV prophylaxis.


And again. Do you place a lesser value on the lives of gay men?


No, I value ones right to choose, and informed consent. Would you force a blood transfusion on a Jehoviahs Witness because you think it's in their best interest?


Irrelevant to this debate: you have already stated that you *support* circumcision in Africa.


I said it was 'not unreasonable' as a public health measure in countries with very high incidence and prevalence of HIV. It doesn't mean it's the best public health measure, or one that should be pursued. There are several conditions, including informed consent for the parents (as you would consenting their child to an appendicectomy or tonsillectomy), and adequately sterile procedures (that's a WHO condition).
 Albvs
Joined: 2/14/2013
Msg: 82
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/26/2013 6:06:40 PM
Sorry to say this but I've heard so many stories from women that uncircumcised penises don't get the daily cleaning required and so smell badly as a result. I'm guessing it's like a male form of yeast infection.

The study regarding AIDS transmission said that the circumcised penis is keratinized (like the lips on your mouth) instead of the inside of your mouth. This forms the barrier that HIV can't go through.

I'm very glad I was circumcised as a baby so that I don't have to worry about that.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/27/2013 12:07:08 AM
Posted By: Albvs on 2/27/2013 12:06:40 PM

Sorry to say this but I've heard so many stories from women that uncircumcised penises don't get the daily cleaning required and so smell badly as a result. I'm guessing it's like a male form of yeast infection.


If one does not pull their foreskin back to wash, it doesn't say much about their general hygiene- that's the least of their worries. Likewise, if you rely on not having foreskin to stay 'fresh' down there....you have some major hygiene issues.



The study regarding AIDS transmission said that the circumcised penis is keratinized (like the lips on your mouth) instead of the inside of your mouth. This forms the barrier that HIV can't go through.


I'm not going to discuss histology, suffice to say that if you had foreskin you wouldn't have calluses on your penis :-b
 Skyr
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Msg: 84
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:01:30 PM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 2/28/2013 224 AM


If the Jehovah's Witness is my minor child? Yes -- before blinking. If the Jehovah's Witness is someone I care about whose life is at stake? I will try to pursuade them to accept the blood transfusion. If I have power of attorney and the patient is unable to communicate? My assumption would be that this person wants me to do whatever it takes to save their life (assuming they never explicitly said "no blood transfusions").


If a doctor gave blood (or any form of treatment) even if life saving, against the wishes of the patient, it would be assault. They would be up against the medical council and probably a criminal court as well.



So you're advocating some form of medical paternalism- we know what's best for you?
I suppose I am.


That went out in the 1970s



If this is someone I care about -- or my opinion is requested -- and the surgery is likely to bring about significant positive health and lifestyle changes, I will again try to be pursuasive.


There is a difference between being persuasive, and doing it without their informed consent. With circumcision, you're doing it before they can make an informed consent.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/27/2013 1:04:36 PM
Posted By: darknight48 on 2/28/2013 241 AM

over in uk give school girls hpv? jab-since its boys that carry it(virgins dont get cervical cancer) shouldnt they give it boys as well.in uk most of us uncircumstied.so stop std s wear a condom -guys. if uncircumsided(which is natural/not alternative -barbaric, ) just keep your self clean on reg basis as hopefully mothers teaching thier young male offspring at bath time


Because penile cancer and oropharyngeal cancers from HPV are far less common than than cervical cancers. The main reasons to give it to boys was to stop them transmitting it to girls.

That said, the HPV vaccine is now being rolled out for boys in Australia.
 Albvs
Joined: 2/14/2013
Msg: 86
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/27/2013 5:47:36 PM

I'm not going to discuss histology, suffice to say that if you had foreskin you wouldn't have calluses on your penis


I said "keratinized" not calloused. Your lips don't have callouses nor does the head of a circumcised penis.

ker·a·tin·ize
/ˈkerətnˌīz/
Verb: Change or become changed into a form containing keratin.

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/vincenzi/
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 87
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/27/2013 6:15:22 PM

I said "keratinized" not calloused. Your lips don't have callouses nor does the head of a circumcised penis.


I was being facetious :-)
 Albvs
Joined: 2/14/2013
Msg: 88
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/28/2013 3:08:26 PM
^^ Now if you suggested my palms were calloused...
 geekymister
Joined: 7/7/2012
Msg: 89
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/2/2013 2:26:41 AM
I gotta agree with this Skyr guy. Having your kid go through circumcision to reduce their chances of getting HIV is the dumbest thing I've heard. Suppose you get 1/3 chance of getting HIV if you don't have a foreskin, why in the world would still have unprotected intercourse with an individual with that mindset. Maybe you won't contract HIV today, but as long as I don't bang her two more times I'll be safe due to probability.

Africa, or other populations where HIV is high, understandable. Anywhere else, that's a silly reason.

You do it because it is a social thing. That's okay.
 geekymister
Joined: 7/7/2012
Msg: 90
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/3/2013 6:52:37 PM
^^^ See. It's like you chance goes from 0.1% to 0.03% making circumcision somewhat irrelevant as far as HIV goes, maybe even for other STDs as well.

Usually in optional surgeries it's the doctor's job just to tell you the benefits and risks without trying to persuade you into anything. I doubt any doctor would tell you not to have baby's circumcision as that crosses a fine line in ethics in the medical field.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/3/2013 11:50:51 PM
Posted By: funnygirl_13 on 3/4/2013 1:28:24 PM

Usually in optional surgeries it's the doctor's job just to tell you the benefits and risks without trying to persuade you into anything. I doubt any doctor would tell you not to have baby's circumcision as that crosses a fine line in ethics in the medical field.

Agreed.


Doctors can to an extent persuade people to do what they want them to do. It's the art of medicine.

I still haven't seen a robust argument on the ethics of circumcision- in relation to autonomy and informed consent. How is is ethical to mutilate a childs genitals when they are too young to make an informed consent? Does the degree of beneficence over ride a childs right to informed consent, over and above the beneficence they gain if they chose to have the procedure as an adult?


HIV risk wasn't really a factor in our personal decision to circumcise our son. However, we would probably have been dissuaded from doing so if we believed the potential risks exceeded the potential benefits overall.


So what 'potential' benefits were you after?
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 3/4/2013 1:51:15 AM

I doubt any doctor would tell you not to have baby's circumcision as that crosses a fine line in ethics in the medical field.

^^^ No physician is going to tell you NOT to circumcise because it is so common place and accepted to expected in the USA.
If you asked about removing a tiny tip of a child's ear lobe ect ( exp) he sure as hell would.
Who needs the tip of an ear lobe to live?

It makes about that much sense to me.

A responsible physician will tell you there is no medical need to do so and that complications such as nerve damage, to much cut off resulting in future erectile pain/difficulties, possible infection, excess bleeding and possible deformities could result-from circumcision just as they should tell you any operation/removal of a body part could have major risks and vaccines could cause death in an infant as mine did.


The development of the human penis is a complex sequence of events which results in an utterly individual outcome: no two penises are identical and there is a surprising range of anatomical detail that should be considered normal. Parents need to be assured of this range of normality. Moreover, the desire of practitioners for standard procedures can lead to unpredictable outcomes because of both this anatomical variation and the impossibility of predicting the functional results of surgical correction in infants.

This is because the procedures are performed with an emphasis on achieving an acceptable COSMETIC outcome on a very small organ which has the capacity for considerable growth and changes during puberty. Furthermore, no surgical procedure can have absolutely predictable outcomes because of the variations in healing and scar formation, the individual variations in technique, and the effects of infection. Regrettably, it seems that the majority of those performing surgical procedures on the penis of minors take no interest in following up the outcome after the organ has developed. Admittedly this involves a time span of at least a decade, but there have been very few attempts at quality control and many boys are left with seriously damaged penises; the outcome is often a functional impairment and is seldom tidy, to say the least. ...

Each operator applies the procedure idiosyncratically and without any absolute parameters, to which must be added the fact that it is surgery on a very small organ which will undergo a large increase in size (usually at least three times) at puberty. These factors may account for the wide variation in circumcision outcomes. A major failure in quality assurance with circumcision is that practically all operators never make any assessments of the outcome of their surgery after the period of growth so as to reduce the oft-seen poor results.

- Pathologist Ken McGrath
Ninth International Symposium on
Circumcision, Genital Integrity and Human Rights
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 93
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/5/2013 3:19:31 AM

I'm so sorry about your terrible loss.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While that is very kind.I didn't convey properly that I didn't do it (it seems.)
 Just___Jim
Joined: 10/21/2012
Msg: 94
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/10/2013 6:22:21 PM
Message:
I've read your post and no where do you explain how this "hurts women in later life"...


Yes, this is a very strange thread as maybe imo where it who hurt a women as the man who has had a circumcision and has premature ejaculation the extra skin would help in that respect to keep his erection longer in satisfying the women in her orgasm and fulfillment.

And in the other respect a woman who has too much skin there can get that removed to help in receiving better stimulation in enjoying a better copulation with her partner.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 95
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/21/2013 2:02:11 PM
I am,and to be honest,I think having boys go through the ordeal of circumcision is barbaric
there is no good reason to have this done to anyone
it should be regarded as child abuse
plain and simple
 SpringMataLeao
Joined: 10/12/2012
Msg: 96
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 4/11/2013 4:00:02 PM
the penis is so ****ing ugly when uncircumsized. Just like the vagina is so ****ing ugly when it is circumsized.

It is a matter of preference, but I will have my male child (if i have one) circumsized because in my opinion the benefits outweight the negatives.
 y0uandi
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 97
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 4/15/2013 1:29:07 PM
"Dude! Perhaps you should look up the articles that show that circumcision cuts the rate of transmission of stds. If you are going to give us a crock of crap on something, at least give both sides of the issue."

You want to talk about crock of crap, which articles have you been reading? Circumcised or not circumcised, transmission of lets say genital warts are the same. Contact to the virus is contact to the virus. The idea of cutting rates of std's by circumcision is probably the funniest thing I've ever heard.
 satx78218
Joined: 10/30/2007
Msg: 98
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 4/16/2013 3:04:15 PM
Circumcision Alters Pen!s Bacteria

Circumcision changes the bacteria ecosystem of the penis, perhaps explaining why the foreskin-snipping procedure reduces the risk of HIV infection, a new study finds.

A year after men received circumcisions, the total bacterial load in the area that used to be under the foreskin dropped significantly, researchers report today (April 16) in the journal mBio. Anaerobic bacteria, which thrive in limited oxygen, declined most dramatically. Some aerobic bacteria, which need oxygen to live, increased.

"It's dramatic," study researcher Lance Price, a genetic epidemiologist at George Washington University in Washington, D.C, said in a statement. "From an ecological perspective, it's like rolling back a rock and seeing the ecosystem change."

Among the most intriguing benefits of circumcision is the finding that circumcised men are less likely to contract HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. A 2005 study of South African men found that circumcised men who had sex with an HIV-positive woman were 63 percent less likely than uncircumcised men to contract the virus. Circumcision has also been shown to reduce the risk of contracting HPV, or human papillomavirus, which can cause cervical cancer if a man infects his female partners with the virus, and herpes simplex virus type 2, better known as genital herpes.


http://www.livescience.com/28741-circumcision-alters-penis-bacteria.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience.com+Science+Headline+Feed%29
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 99
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 4/16/2013 3:48:31 PM
^^^ You suppose they took the 2 different bacterial cultures and stuck them in a petri dish to see if they had any effect on the HIV? Not likely - that would have been mentioned in the article - instead of "The researchers plan to follow up to explore this possibility".

What you have here is two completely separate pieces of information pressed together to appear "sciency" in a weak attempt to propound the author's opinion. Add to the fact that the study conducted in South Africa is of the type where the actual data would be extremely hard to collect and even harder to verify, you've got nothing less than propaganda.
No surprise, proponents of circumcision have been trying for years to come up with any desperate excuse to keep it going.
I say keep it going. The only thing that really wrong with circumcision is that it is often performed on unwilling and non consenting victims, also known as babies. If you want to have one done, get it when you're 18 and of legal age to consent to a body modification.
I figure someone's going to come on here and say it safer or hurts less when you're a baby. If you believe that, how do they fare with other surgical procedures like open heart surgery?... is it safer? does it hurts him less.... maybe he won't remember?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 100
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 4/16/2013 4:07:36 PM

I say keep it going. The only thing that really wrong with circumcision is that it is often performed on unwilling and non consenting victims, also known as babies. If you want to have one done, get it when you're 18 and of legal age to consent to a body modification.

Do you think it is ok to give a baby a vaccine?




I figure someone's going to come on here and say it safer or hurts less when you're a baby. If you believe that, go punch a baby... see if it hurts him less.... maybe he won't remember.

Actually it is pretty much guaranteed the baby will not remember as it is not really until you are around 2 years old when you start remembering stuff and most of those memories are more so the result of the story being told to you than you actually remembering it.
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