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 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 112
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How male circumcision hurts women Page 7 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

1) As mentioned above there are supposed benefits of preventing HIV and other STI's, but as also has been mentioned this is based on studies in different cultures where not all factors may have been accounted for. For example other cultures may have values that include a lot of anal sex and promiscuity, and a common lack of personal hygiene. In the developed world, there is more value on monogamy and personal hygiene, and anal sex is less common. So these studies do not easily translate from one culture to another.


In a Western context, the prevalence of HIV is not at any level that would result in significant relative risk reduction of HIV. For HPV associated penile cancers...the incidence ranges from 1 in 100,000 to 1 in 250,000. You would not get any meaningful beneficence.

The greatest clinical benefit for circumcision is the reduction of UTIs. For that you have to mutilate between 1 in 100 and 1 in 195 infants to prevent a single UTI. Which can be treated with a short course of bactrim. Drastic much?
 InShapeAndToned56
Joined: 9/23/2012
Msg: 113
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 8/24/2013 4:23:16 PM
I've heard lots of discussion and different points of view, but I've not heard how male circumcision hurts women.
In the end it's a parental choice like it or not...
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 114
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 8/24/2013 6:40:08 PM

I've heard lots of discussion and different points of view, but I've not heard how male circumcision hurts women.
In the end it's a parental choice like it or not...


One that should be condemned on ethical and medical grounds.
 DomG79
Joined: 3/12/2011
Msg: 115
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 8/24/2013 11:13:07 PM
I'm uncircumcised and no woman has ever complained. I contemplated doing it recently, but I've heard of some of the things that could go wrong as a result. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
 tallshyman
Joined: 1/1/2008
Msg: 116
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 8/27/2013 10:33:57 AM
are men circumcised because women like to look at the head of the penis?
 satx78218
Joined: 10/30/2007
Msg: 117
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 8/27/2013 10:46:39 AM
been around for 4000+ years, and just now it becomes a problem? LOL

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision
 OTTO BONN
Joined: 4/20/2006
Msg: 118
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 10/28/2013 5:44:36 AM
Watch season 3 episode 1 of the Penn & Teller show Bullshit! titled Circumcision. You'll see whom it hurts the most: the newborns who undergo the procedure. It's done with NO anesthetic. Honestly, circumcision should be outlawed. Why? Because it's Bullshit!
 DragonBits
Joined: 1/6/2012
Msg: 119
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 10/28/2013 9:42:26 AM
Seems like one of these nonissue issues.

Or not such a big deal either way.

Our entire existence is about changing what nature intended to happen. Most people want Doctors to cure their ills with artificial means. No way with out air con would I have lived in Texas or without a furnace would I live in Chicago.

Sometimes we overstep using science to change our lives, but no would be happy and few would be alive without so called artificial technology.
 satx78218
Joined: 10/30/2007
Msg: 120
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 11/3/2013 7:59:58 AM
How Circumcision Broke the Internet

A fringe group is drowning out any discussion of facts

There are facts about circumcision—but you won’t find them easily on the Internet. Parents looking for straightforward evidence about benefits and risks are less likely to stumble across the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention than Intact America, which confronts viewers with a screaming, bloodied infant and demands that hospitals “stop experimenting on baby boys.”

Just a quick Google search away lies the Circumcision Complex, a website that speculates that circumcision leads to Oedipus and castration complexes, to say nothing of the practice’s alleged brutal physiological harms.

If you do locate the rare rational and informed circumcision article, you’ll be assaulted by a vitriolic mob of commenters accusing the author of encouraging “genital mutilation.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/09/intactivists_online_a_fringe_group_turned_the_internet_against_circumcision.html
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 121
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 11/8/2013 4:06:34 AM
Posted By: DonJ77 on 4/25/2013 1157 AM




The "nature intended we have a skin" is stupid. Just because we have one doesn't mean we have to keep it.


Just because nature endowed you with a frontal lobe doesn't mean you use it, as evidenced by your post.

Why not have a lobotomy?
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 122
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 11/8/2013 4:21:49 AM
Posted By: dragonbits on 10/29/2013 326 AM



Sometimes we overstep using science to change our lives, but no would be happy and few would be alive without so called artificial technology.


What science? Merely stating that witchcraft and religion is based on scientific principles doesn't make it so.

I've already discussed at length the specious arguments used to justify this practice, as well as the (lack of) medical ethical principals. NNTs in the hundreds, or hundreds of thousands, and clinical conditions that can easily be treated without genital mutilation.

No one on this thread has been able to give any reasonable justification based on informed consent, autonomy or even beneficence, let alone non-maleficence.


Most people want Doctors to cure their ills with artificial means.


What ill is cured by amputating a non-disease body part? Most doctors I work with refuse to endorse this ludicrous practice. The US is the only country in the world that selectively misinterprets the studies in favour of circumcision.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 123
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 12/11/2013 3:28:53 AM

I personally won't be sexual with a person who is not circumsized.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
He may prefer a virgin.

You can't un-ring a bell that's been rung and the man had no choice if his parents did that to him..
There is no medical issue you should be concerned with.
 GuitarPlayer64
Joined: 4/4/2013
Msg: 124
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 12/13/2013 7:05:23 AM
I sit here and laugh at all the people who think that circumsion at birth is somehow unethical and immoral and that it leads to traumatization. I don't know about any other men, as this is not a discussion me and my friends have while we are hanging out having beers, however I don't remember being circumsied when I was born because the other infections I had when I was born were a lot more painful for a lot longer period of time. Try having ear infections and have to get tubes put in your ears, that was a much more painful and longer lasting experience for me. I don't really remember either event though and have had other painful experiences since then, anyone who believes that getting cut at birth causes trauma is a fool because there is no solid proof. There are so many other variables in life that could trigger trauma that even trying to link anything to circumcision is reaching for straws.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 125
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 12/13/2013 11:25:17 AM

I sit here and laugh at all the people who think that circumsion at birth is somehow unethical and immoral and that it leads to traumatization.


Do you have an ethical argument otherwise? Or is it just your 'opinion' that it is ethical? Which of these- autonomy, informed consent or malefescence/non-malefescence do you have an issue with? I'd be interested in how you justify it with an ethical framework.


I don't know about any other men, as this is not a discussion me and my friends have while we are hanging out having beers, however I don't remember being circumsied when I was born because the other infections I had when I was born were a lot more painful for a lot longer period of time.


You're comparing two irrelevant variables. If someone amputated your hand at birth, under general anaesthetic, you probably won't remember it either. It would be as silly as saying that it was less painful than other infections you had in childhood and therefore it's okay to have your hand amputated.



Try having ear infections and have to get tubes put in your ears, that was a much more painful and longer lasting experience for me.


There is a clear beneficence argument for this. With chronic otitis media, your hearing and therefore learning during childhood would be severely impacted. Your parents consenting to this procedure would be considered providing the necessities of life- in this case healthcare and education.

Mutilating foreskin does neither, except satisfy your parents own religious or customary conviction.


I don't really remember either event though and have had other painful experiences since then, anyone who believes that getting cut at birth causes trauma is a fool because there is no solid proof


You're not going to remember any post-op complications either. It doesn't mean they didn't happen.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 126
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How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 12/15/2013 2:57:21 AM

I sit here and laugh at all the people who think that circumsion at birth is somehow unethical and immoral and that it leads to traumatization.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You don't know it causes no subconscious trauma.
I have seen a lot of guys/ men "cup" themselves for seemingly no reason.
Hmmm, Maybe some protective issue going on there? Castration anxiety?
 contrapuntal
Joined: 9/7/2013
Msg: 127
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/27/2014 9:19:05 PM
It's just an American or middle eastern thing to think of natural penises as gross or unkempt. In Europe they don't circumcise, they realize that it's cruel to cut off the most sensitive part of the male anatomy.

People who circumcise need to realize that it's a horribly unnecessary practice--unless there's a medical reason for doing it, such as overly tight foreskin causing tearing.

To think that it grosses people out because it might smell bad is the most ridiculous reasoning. Do you honestly think that men can't figure out how to clean it, or boys taught how to clean it?

Go watch European porno and tell me that it looks any different or it somehow looks worse. Remember, the foreskin has more nerve endings that the head itself. The penis was brilliantly designed, the foreskin acts as a lubricator and keeps the head tucked away and sensitive. When you expose the head at all times it becomes shriveled and greyish over time and it loses sensitivity. Why are so many men in America resorting to Cialis and Viagra in their 30s and 40s when they should be still virile.

To circumcise for aesthetics is just as logical as cutting the labia off or cutting off the surrounding skin around the clitoris on a female.

It's just ignorant Americans and ignorant religions that have brought upon this horrendous practice. The funny part is that people with the opinion of a natural penis appearing to be disgusting will go home and watch porno with uncircumcised penises and not even realize it. At what other point do you expose your penis as a man to another person except during sex?

There's plenty of documentaries on the subject, I can't believe that American still hold the opinion that it's necessary for mere aesthetics. A penis looks ugly any way you slice it folks.
 fieryredhead77
Joined: 12/17/2012
Msg: 128
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 1/30/2014 12:29:02 PM
^^citing articles is good but who funds them, the research, etc.

I also would want to take into consideration with the studies done, socio-economic backgrounds,etc. I mean, we can go to Africa in a country with a high hiv population, and see that people are uncircumcised, but is that a cause/risk? If it were the cultural norm for everyone to be circumcised, I wonder if somehow their crazy high rates of hiv would be any different.
 milkloverx
Joined: 4/13/2013
Msg: 129
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/21/2014 8:10:39 PM
Do you realize how unsanitary it is to not be circumcised? Not to mention having a flap of skin over your head just cuts down on sensitivity, just like having a condom on. It also looks disgusting to have kok jowls hanging from your peener all the time. Having birth through a vagina is natural too but I'm sure some women are glad there is a thing called c-section and I am as well. Welcome to the modern era.
 fieryredhead77
Joined: 12/17/2012
Msg: 130
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/21/2014 8:44:31 PM
^^ lol. How exactly is it unsanitary. You wash it! And it retracts during sex, so most people would say that it increases sensitivity because the rest of the time it is protected. Comparing it to c section is horrible. C section take months to years to recover from, while vaginal birth it is weeks.
 fieryredhead77
Joined: 12/17/2012
Msg: 131
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/22/2014 9:28:01 AM
^urine is sterile. Your penis isn't getting dirty by peeing. There is no need to wash it every time you pee
 fieryredhead77
Joined: 12/17/2012
Msg: 132
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/22/2014 10:58:19 AM
an infection while young....from using public toilets? More likely he went a long time without washing it, and/or he wasn't taught how to clean himself properly.
 BabblingBrookes
Joined: 2/14/2013
Msg: 133
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 2/24/2014 8:17:19 PM

To circumcise for aesthetics is just as logical as cutting the labia off or cutting off the surrounding skin around the clitoris on a female.


To be fair, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges. Removing a boy's foreskin decreases sensation. Cutting off a girl's clitoral hood increases sensation. What you're suggesting would be agonizing for a considerably longer time. I've never researched the effects of removing the clitoral hood, but it can't be good.

I'm neither pro nor anti circumcision. I feel it's up to my husband to decide since he has a penis. I personally feel uncut penises are unattractive, but I don't believe my son should be surgically altered to be more attractive. My strong preference is that he be left intact, and I'm thankfully marrying a man who feels the same. He is cut but wishes he knew what he was missing. I'm glad he has a beautiful penis, but I sympathize with his plight.
 BabblingBrookes
Joined: 2/14/2013
Msg: 134
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/7/2014 5:10:25 AM
So you think cutting OFF the area that holds much of the sensitivity of the penis is the same as cutting off the area that PROTECTS the most sensitive area of a female. Ok...

Since I doubt either of us will sign up for this study, I'll just agree to disagree. :\
 femaleconnection
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 135
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/7/2014 1:55:01 PM
In hindsight I wish I had been strong enough to fight against my ex husband wanting this done to our son.

At the time my thinking was that I wanted our son to identify with his Dad, and see the same type of penis on his Dad....and seeing as I dont have one I felt I was in no position to make any case for not doing t.

I have come to believe it is barbaric, totally not needed and actually pretty stupid. If had a son today I would never allow this to be done.

And anyone saying it is not painful is nuts. My little guy screamed bloody murder. Just because he doesnt remember it is no excuse. He also wouldnt remember if I had punched him in the face when he was a baby, that doesnt mean I should have done that.

It is mutilation without consent. If an adult wants to have it done, go for it. An adult has the right to make that choice. Put metal in it, tattoo it, tie it in a knot if you want...have a blast. Your choice.
 TrustInKarma
Joined: 2/14/2014
Msg: 136
How male circumcision hurts women
Posted: 3/17/2014 9:32:25 PM
Being from Europe, I think circumcision is barbaric and it is NOT harmless. Like any surgical procedure, there is ALWAYS a risk of infection, bleeding, pain , etc. I'm a pediatric nurse and have been present during many circs. Getting injected several times into the shaft of the penis with lidocaine is VERY painful, and the poor boys always tense and scream in pain. Even after being numbed, they tense up and scream when the cutting and clamping off starts. It's barbaric and unnecessary, and I want to smack parents who don't even want to be present because they can't take it. THEY can't take it, but it's OK their poor kid has to suffer through it because THEY want it done??? Pretty messed up. We've had kids return with infections and also had to administer emergency vitamin K because of excess bleeding. Why on earth would you risk your newborn's health and life for something medically unnecessary? It is beyond me.

Also, I've been with both circumcised and intact ("uncircumcised") men, and neither one is better or worse. That's why we have soap and water. In fact, the best-looking and sexually most satisfying guy I've ever been with was intact, no problem at all.
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