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 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 51
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My body,My choice!Page 3 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)

Would you have told that to a woman 50 years ago who lost her job because she was pregnant?
A pregant woman is not contagious at any point in her pregnancy, there's no danger to patients because of this therefore this is a moot point.

Can an employer tell someone what to do with their body in order for them to keep their job?
They do it all the time... no visible tattoos, no facial or body piercings other than the ears and those kept to a minimum with conservative jewelry, no unnatural hair colours. All of these things are within the employer's right to dictate as they reflect on the company's image. A company can also demand that perfumes not be used or that a person bathe regularly. This is also by no means a comprehensive list of the things employers have the right to demand of their staff...

When in Rome...
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 52
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 6:42:54 AM

It should be noted that the amount of those "dangerous" chemicals in the flu shot are miniscule


Try telling that to the 27 people who died and the 500 people that
came down with GBS after the last "Swine Flu" shot in 1976.
All those people sued the Government for Millions. Now...
there is a clause in this new N1H1 that gives the Government immunity
if anything from sudden cardiac arrest to GBS. You just become a "Oh well."
Also tell the thousand of MD'S and Nurses who Marched in Albany NY last
week that the Majority of health care workers agree with Mandated Flu shots.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 53
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 6:49:44 AM
Don't get me wrong, having said what I said earlier in this thread, I still wouldn't personally be thrilled about having to get the H1N1 shot.....

My doctor in fact told me just last week, when I was there and I inquired about it to get his opinion on it, that he is in line to get one himself (as soon as the hospital gets enough of them) because it's just been mandated for the hospital employees there (Loyola near Chicago), but he told me frankly to forget it. He said, paraphrasing, "It's too new, I wouldn't recommend it. If anything get a regular flu shot, particularly if you work daily in any sort of institution or you work dealing with large segments of the general public, and/or just keep up your basic hygiene, try for decent rest, take a vitamin daily...", and so on. I don't work in any institutional type settings, nor do I generally have to deal with large segments of the general public on a daily basis, thus..... I'm going to just keep doing what I've been doing. Oh and by the way, he said definitely not to ever do the "nasal spray" version of the H1N1 vaccine. Not sure exactly why, but, that's just what he said.
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 54
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 7:25:12 AM

They do it all the time... no visible tattoos, no facial or body piercings other than the ears and those kept to a minimum with conservative jewelry, no unnatural hair colours. All of these things are within the employer's right to dictate as they reflect on the company's image.


I don't see the connection here? There's a big difference between being forced
to not wear a certain hair color vs mandating an invasive procedure that
could cause health problems or even death!
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 55
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 7:37:38 AM
I don't see the connection here? There's a big difference between being forced
to not wear a certain hair color vs mandating an invasive procedure that
could cause health problems or even death!
C'mon... is this melodramatic or what?

First of all, the comments were in response to whether or not the employer had a right to dictate how a person treats their body in the workplace... so I was giving specific examples that are NOT under question. Here's a specific scenario that encompasses getting an injection.

You're working for a company and part of your job requires travel. Not a problem... then, one day the company expands and travel is now to outside of the country you are in, and in order to travel to that country, you are required to get immunized for specific things. You refuse, you can't do your job, you're fired... justifiably so...

I understand you're wanting a free ride on this, hell... anyone would want to get paid for sitting on their ass at home watching pay-per-view. But c'mon... quit with the melodramatics and all that garbage. If you don't want to do your job... don't do it... but don't expect a wave of support from people that do go into work each day and rely on others to make sure it's a safe and healthy work environment and that you aren't putting others at risk because of your negligence.
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 56
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 8:11:22 AM

I understand you're wanting a free ride on this

Wrong. I don't want a free anything.... except for the choice what goes in my body
via injection!

If you don't want to do your job... don't do it... but don't expect a wave of support from people that do go into work each day and rely on others to make sure it's a safe and healthy work environment and that you aren't putting others at risk because of your negligence.


Negligence??? There are many infectious diseases that have no vaccine and
for that last 20 years, I've been exposed to all of them without compliant because thats what I do. Now there is an alleged vaccine for the Flu ( which is not a disease) and
and my experience tells me I don't want to take it because I've personally seen it does
not work...so now I'm Negligent????? SIGH......
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 57
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 11:07:58 AM

It was organised by a conservative "tea bagger" libertarian and featured the usual holistic"alternative medicine" and austism nuts. The only MD to speak is an "alternatve medicine" doctor. A bunch of flakes basically.

Which is pretty much the ENTIRE "vaccines are an evil conspiracy to turn us into sheep/make us sick for profit/cull the population" crowd in a nutshell.
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 58
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 11:40:42 AM

I found a story about the "thousands" of protesters all 200 of them yup two hundred.
It was organised by a conservative "tea bagger" libertarian and featured the usual holistic"alternative medicine" and austism nuts.

You sight one of a few, however, thanks for the find as your article was very informative about the number below:

The New York Nurses Association, representing 37,000 nurses came out against the mandate in July with testimony before the State Hospital Review and Planning Council.

37,000 and thats just Nurses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 59
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 12:00:11 PM

Which is pretty much the ENTIRE "vaccines are an evil conspiracy to turn us into sheep/make us sick for profit/cull the population" crowd in a nutshell.


Yeah, your a smoker! I'm sure you don't believe all that bullshit about
the negative effects of smoking either! No way do tobacco companys profit off making
anyone sick!!!!!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 60
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 12:08:51 PM
Yeah, your a smoker! I'm sure you don't believe all that bullshit about
the negative effects of smoking either! No way do tobacco companys profit off making
anyone sick!!!!!

Pitiful and off-topic effort....

Perhaps, just perhaps, I enjoy it enough to not care (how do you know I don't have a sufficient stash of phenobarbitol and Jack Daniels to make it a "non-issue"). Besides, I have access to universal health care so it isn't going to cost ME anything.

Oh and BTW, they don't do it SPECIFICALLY to MAKE you sick as they make no profit off that. You have made an irrelevant analogy
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 61
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 12:20:49 PM
I won't be getting the shot, but I never get any of the other flu shots either because I have a high immunity to even the common cold and I don't work in association with a lot of people. I'd be really mixed on whether or not to take it "by order" or risk losing my job if I didn't. I'm of the age where I have the smallpox scar on my arm from a shot where, because I did have the shot, my childrens' generation weren't faced with the possibility of getting it (although I understand it may be rearing it's ugly head once again). Having said that, I'm uncomfortable with anti-viral shots that are whipped up in a big hurry without enough time to know what the entire side affects may be. It reminds me of what thalidomide did for children of pregnant women and makes me think twice that "I Am Legend" (even though a movie which takes the outcome to an extreme as an end result of an anti-cancer vaccination) is possible insofar as having a multitude of adverse effects on the human race. Could it be that the severe allergies and autism and other problems with younger generations are cropping up with more frequency not necessarily because of a "suspected" link to the environment as much as what we are told is "safe" to put into our bodies by both pharmaceutical companies and our govenrments?
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 62
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 1:53:00 PM
Let's see dolf, without the shot I get the flu at least once a year and end up in the hospital, so far nobody has had to wipe my ass but since you hate your job so much leaving won't be that big a deal for you, now when I get the shot, so far, I don't get the flu. Amazing how that works. Your understanding of vaccines is hilarious considering you work in the health field, but no worries, you are not being forced to get the shot you can always walk away, your choice.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 63
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 2:27:37 PM

I know many posters have put forth the supposition of "choice", however I feel it is a form of economic blackmail, imposed by legislature. It reduces the "right", to govern one's body, which would imply, that one's own body, is the property of the state.

No... YOU CHOOSE to alienate that 'right' (and sometimes other rights) when YOU CHOOSE to work in a field where the full exercise of that right puts the well-being of others at undue and preventable risk.

The statement is tantamount to saying "it's economic blackmail if I can't attend my job when I am an active but asymptomatic carrier of TB" or "it's economic blackmail when my employer supresses my free speech under threat of dismissal just because I'm gratuitously bad mouthing his business and costing him clients".

Working in health care brings certain inherent risks both from patient to worker and worker to patient. I guarantee you that the vast majority of health care workers would raise holy hell if they were required to work with patients with known communicable diseases without being provided necessary safeguards (even though the safeguards may alienate the same 'rights' of the patients) yet some seem to think that they have no obligation to take similar safeguards with respect to the hazards they may pose to patients.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 64
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 4:09:45 PM
Diva...


The Op chose to work in a healthcare profession, however the law changed after he had already established himself as a healthcare professional.


I chose to work in the construction industry - does that mean I have the right to disregard the safety regulations that get put into place after I started? During my apprenticeship, I trained on powered-lifts without a safety belt... now I can't board one without wearing a safety harness and lanyard.

We either adapt to the regulations that govern our profession, or we find a line of work that allows us to be more carefree in our attitudes.

I'm getting the impression that the concept of 'rights' has overshadowed the concept of 'responsibility'...
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 65
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/9/2009 9:54:40 PM
OP stated

Most people who take it come down with the flu. While most of us who do not take it ...never miss a day of work!


I agree. The two times I got talked into flu shots I became deathly ill and so I will not subject myself or my family to any flu shots.
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 66
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Posted: 10/10/2009 6:07:40 AM

This ISN'T about YOU , it's about US. If you don't want to take a shot then fine , don't take it. Get another job. I and WE have a responsibility to the hundreds if not thousands of people you will endanger with your disregard for their safety.


Educate yourself and read. These flu shots don't work and indeed may
spread the flu!
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 67
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:11:29 AM
If he cared that much about his patients he would at least have taken the time to read up on the science behind vaccinations.


Thats the problem, I did read the science behind these vaccines and
not only do they scare the hell out of me....they DON'T WORK!
Perhaps you should read more about the science behind them
and WHO PROFITS from these vaccines.
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 68
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:26:25 AM

sick calls are really discouraged and often punished by hospitals already working with minimum staff


This is a FACT that most non-medical people find hard to believe, however,
it is the TRUTH. Hospital Admins could care less if your sick. They will
hound you to work when you are sick. This is a fact that anyone working in a hospital
as a healthcare provider will tell you!

Divagreen,
It is now a law my dear. Unjust and IMO it won't last long!
 renoirs_dream
Joined: 5/2/2009
Msg: 69
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:28:48 AM
EXACTLY!!!!

I understand the OP.... The government is so deep into our lives anymore that the original Bill of Rights and Constitution are out of date!

More and more I am sounding like some sort of freak against government. NO WAY! I believe that our government should keep out of the private lives of it's citizens as long as there are no laws being broken that affect other people. Yea, I know, lot's of open space for contemplation.

But as for the topic.
You should have the FREEDOM to not take the shot. WHY? It's your body! You are an ADULT! Not a child that the government thinks you need to be protected from your own parents!

What is amazing is that so many laws are being broken in the face of the law to NO END. But you have to get a flu shot or risk your job?

I soooo can't wait until the state of NY puts in weight scales at counters of McD's and all other fat food places. Opps, FAST food places.... "I'm sorry, but on the Hobart scale you weigh in at 192 lbs and your height weight ratio is above the Obese level. By LAW we can only sever you the Chicken House Salad with NO FAT dressing! "

If this is such a BIG problem and to epidemic portions... Then WHY from the start have we not put a halt to people from the original infected location on a global QUARANTINE!

I for one did see a lady with the LACK of education in the USA say. "I am under quarantine. I have the flu." while at a Walmart shopping.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 70
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:44:40 AM

But as for the topic.
You should have the FREEDOM to not take the shot. WHY? It's your body! You are an ADULT! Not a child that the government thinks you need to be protected from your own parents!
As long as people continue acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of others.

Nurses care for sick people, sick people have lowered immunities; when nurses get sick, they still get paid so it's a huge burden on the people that pay the taxes to not only pay them for being ill, but for the replacement nurse to take their place at overtime rate.

I still say if you don't want to comply with the mandate of your job, then get a different one. No one is entitled to a job, they earn it...
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 71
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 6:57:52 AM

As long as people continue acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of others.


Very good!~ However, let me rephrase it slightly to make it viable:

As long as our Government continues acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent
manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of EACH SINGLE
INDIVIDUAL.
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 72
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:00:22 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of the medical community continue to work with diseases such as Hepatitis C? Some of those most likely deal with your blood on a daily basis as well? Right or wrong?
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 73
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 12:22:53 PM
Two thoughts here, one of which no one has yet to answer, and another one which is an age old political question.

The main argument of the OP poster is that the government should not be allowed to control what a person puts into their body, especially in regards to their status of employment. Now, not to carry this out to a slippery slope, but the government does this all the time in regards to employment and doing a job. For example, the government dictates that anyone flying a plane, especially a commercial flight, can not have a drop of alcohol, if I remember right, within 48 hours prior to their flight. This goes for several other professions as well, at least the alcohol part. Bus Drivers, Truckers, pretty much anyone who operates a motor vehicle during their employment is not allowed to have alcohol while they are duty are have a certain BAL. So according to the argument of the original poster, the government has violated their single individual rights as well by saying they can not drink before or during the time they are on duty. I'm sure the OP will stand up for these people as well since he is making said argument.

Which actually leads into the age old political question based off of this quotation from the OP:

As long as our Government continues acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent
manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of EACH SINGLE
INDIVIDUAL.


At what point does each single individual's rights stop and the rights of society as a collective, or even the rights of another single individual's begin?

Just to illustrate this point, the constitution says I have the right to Free Speech, however, it is part of rulings by the Judicial Branch that states that my right of free speech can not encroach upon the rights of other. In other words, they have to be appropriate to the time, place, and manner, which is why I can't walk into a crowded theater and yell "FIIIIIIRRRRRRREEEEE!!!!!"

I do believe there are some valid points, but the main argument is really being missed by many people, and that is, as I stated previously, at what point does each single individual's rights stop and the rights of society as a collective, or even the rights of another single individual begin?

I do just have one additional question, OP. Which facility do you work at? I'm just asking so I can avoid ever using that medical facility.
 clockwork lime
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 74
My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 12:49:39 PM

The main argument of the OP poster is that the government should not be allowed to control what a person puts into their body, especially in regards to their status of employment. Now, not to carry this out to a slippery slope, but the government does this all the time in regards to employment and doing a job. For example, the government dictates that anyone flying a plane, especially a commercial flight, can not have a drop of alcohol, if I remember right, within 48 hours prior to their flight. This goes for several other professions as well, at least the alcohol part. Bus Drivers, Truckers, pretty much anyone who operates a motor vehicle during their employment is not allowed to have alcohol while they are duty are have a certain BAL. So according to the argument of the original poster, the government has violated their single individual rights as well by saying they can not drink before or during the time they are on duty. I'm sure the OP will stand up for these people as well since he is making said argument.


No, he's not making said argument at all.
He's arguing that the government shouldn't be able to dictate what he puts into his body, not what he keeps out.
You're not carrying the argument to a slippery slope, you're pushing an elephant up the stairs with that. What a ridiculous attempt at building a strawman.


At what point does each single individual's rights stop and the rights of society as a collective, or even the rights of another single individual's begin?

Since society is full of examples of individual rights trumping those of the collective, why start with this?
 Stormwolf
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 75
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My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/10/2009 2:05:38 PM
Dear Friend,

Fall is here, and winter is just around the corner…again. Football, frost, and, more recently, flu shots are just a few of the things associated with this time of year. The first two are inevitable. The third is a matter of choice, which has been popularized more by marketing and propaganda than by effectiveness. Another recent study bears this out.

During the last two decades the flu vaccination rate among the elderly has increased from 15 to 65 percent, but there hasn’t been a corresponding decrease in hospital admissions or mortality.

A Canadian study involved 352 individuals given the flu vaccine and 352 matched control individuals who didn’t get the shot. Eighty-five percent of the participants were over age 64. Overall, 29 percent of these individuals came down with severe pneumonia, and 12 percent of the group died. At first glance, it appeared that the flu vaccination reduced the mortality rate by about 50 percent. Only 8 percent of those receiving the vaccine died, compared to 15 percent of those not receiving the shot. Most other studies come to a similar conclusion and report findings like these as a matter of fact—but this study went a little further.

The researchers in this study not only adjusted for factors such as age, gender, and co-existing illnesses, they also took into account what they refer to as the “healthy-user effect.” This is one very important factor that hasn’t been considered in the earlier studies.

Dr. Sumit Majumdar, the lead researcher, explains the healthy-user effect describes what most doctors refer to as their “good” patients. These are the ones who take a serious approach to their health by exercising regularly, not smoking, drinking in moderation, taking supplements or necessary medications, et cetera. When you include this factor into the evaluation, taking the flu vaccine didn’t have any significant effect on mortality. In other words, if someone is otherwise healthy they probably have a better chance of surviving a serious flu infection than someone who is already frail and in ill heath. The flu vaccine doesn’t change the mortality rate in either the already-healthy group or the already-ill group.

Despite the overwhelming evidence that the flu vaccination program offers no benefit, I’m sure it will go on and on like most government-sponsored efforts. Most of the public, and health professionals alike, have been brainwashed into believing it’s saving lives. Personally, I would suggest spending your money and efforts on making sure you’re keeping your immune system in shape so you don’t get sick in the first place. Regular and adequate exercise and rest, a good diet, and clean water are an essential start to staying well. So is a sound daily supplement program. There are some key supplements, in addition to a daily multivitamin-mineral supplement, that can ensure your immune system stays strong and healthy.

Dr David Williams
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