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 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 46
Women on SubmarinesPage 6 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

That makes me feel so much better knowing that only ten percent of the women in the military are getting raped. Here I thought there was an actual problem in the military.
Really doesn't make me feel good.

Must be the way my mind works, but it was pretty obvious to me he was being sarcastic.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 47
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/8/2009 5:28:06 PM
If the fact that men rape women isn't an issue, the fact that men protect women shouldn't be, either. That's THEIR problem, not any woman's problem. All these rationalizations so far have been because of MEN's shortcomings, not women's. So let's kick all men out of the armed services, if they can't handle it.

PLUS, NOW all of a sudden YOU are talking about combat troops??? Different scenario than serving on a sub. And stop talking about what you term "equality", when you so clearly have no idea what it means--you're misusing it. You said: " At some point, logic must take precedence over the perceived injustice done to a particular group's 'equal' rights. " Your logic is that WOMEN be banned from serving because MEN are deficient--that's just NOT LOGICAL. And "perceived injustice"???????? Jeesuz ****ing christ--YOU ARE SAYING A CERTAIN SEGMENT OF THE MILITARY SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE. That IS unjust, not "perceived injustice". I know I'm shouting, I like to shout.


Now, ladies, regardless of the poor opinion you may have of them

And WTF is THIS statement about?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 48
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History
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/8/2009 6:13:40 PM
RE Msg: 111 by aSydneyMale:
Must be the way my mind works, but it was pretty obvious to me he was being sarcastic.
I missed the sarcasm. I miss social cues sometimes.

RE Msg: 113 by rad0618:
This thread got hijacked with the whole rape issue.
I just thought sexual tension might be a problem. I've known a lot of people who served in the IDF. The attitude to sex in the Israeli Army is VERY different than the way I see American women represent themselves here. Israeli women soldiers are very often the ones to initiate sex.

When we did field recovery maneuvers and the fake gunfire started, any male who happened to be standing next to me, or other females, would push me/us down or get in front of me/us. They didn't want me/us to get hurt. Now, ladies, regardless of the poor opinion you may have of them, American men are trained from birth that women are to be protected and it seems to be instinctive for them even to the point of disregarding their own safety...things they didn't do for other male airmen. I don't want any man dying because he did something to protect me instead of covering his own a$$.
Yup. I've seen that sort of thing happen too, with British men protecting their girlfriends from a fight, often when it was their girlfriends who started the fight, and were fighting him to get at the other girl. The guys would got a pasting from their own girlfriends.

So, my opinion that women should not serve on front lines or in a sub or in other places where their male counterparts might feel the need to protect them is not based on equality. It's based on experience. Countless male soldiers would be needlessly lost, not in fighting the enemy, but by being distracted about protecting the females in their unit. At some point, logic must take precedence over the perceived injustice done to a particular group's 'equal' rights.

Until our society changes the way it socializes men and women, co-ed combat groups are a very bad idea. And for those of you who have used Israel and other countries, read up on it. Israel does require females to serve mandatory military time just like the males, but the females aren't in what Israel considers direct combat positions.
The IDF doesn't put women in direct combat fire. They often serve in trainers, or as tank commanders, or other similar positions. I was staying somewhere in Israel during the 2003 Iraq War (I don't want to say where, in case it opens up a potential security hole). One floor of where I was staying was taken up by the IDF's computers and detection equipment. Most of the soldiers manning them were girls.

What I found interesting, though, was that most of these jobs that women did, would be considered quite senior in most armies, and they would be able to order ordinary male soldiers around as much as they want. I realise that they are being kept from combat. But it does seem to me as if they are not being treated like "the little woman", but the reverse.

And, even if they were, the socialization may be completely different than here in the States.
It IS. As I wrote, the women soldiers go up to the men for sex. But then Israel did come up as the country with the most confident people in the world.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 49
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/8/2009 7:17:56 PM


RE Msg: 111 by aSydneyMale:
Must be the way my mind works, but it was pretty obvious to me he was being sarcastic.

I missed the sarcasm. I miss social cues sometimes.

No big deal, certainly there was no malicious intent in my posting, people who know me know I miss plenty of social cues!
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 50
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/9/2009 8:02:41 AM

Until our society changes the way it socializes men and women, co-ed combat groups are a very bad idea.


This is an interesting dilemma, and one that will likely never go away...

We can't have co-ed combat groups until society changes the way it socializes men and women, yet society is unlikely to MAKE that change UNTIL we have co-ed combat groups.

Attitudes won't change overnight... but it has to start SOMEwhere...
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 51
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History
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/9/2009 8:26:06 AM
It's always good to hear that more women are going down these days and like seamen.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 52
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/16/2009 9:18:27 PM
Yes, I see your point. Not wanting to put your child in foster care DOES make you unfit for duty aboard a boat. (WTF?!)
 Pearnbran
Joined: 10/4/2005
Msg: 53
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History
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/16/2009 10:56:12 PM
If the Navy was 100% sincere about women serving on Submarines..

then let's just use 100% women only.. on one..in a make or break operation.
and see if they can make the commitment

I spent 10 years in the Navy, served with women..and aboard ships with them..

depending on the job..many were..just as good as men, and just as bad as men..

I have always been against the blatant sexist mindset that permeates our service.

there should be one standard for physical fitness in the service..Not a men's standard and a woman's standard..for combat ratings...

our enemies do not use different bullets..knives..missles..torpeados..one marked men..and others marked just for women..

also...I am current employed as a builder of Submarines..and although many of the systems are automated..the day to day operation is far from all push button..

candidates for submarine service..endure strenuous damage control training..

one that you can not opt out of..nor should not be gender compromised like the physical fitness standard currently in place...you either are physically capable to put the fire out..stop the burst pipe from leaking..or if necessary egress the Submarine ..using the equipment provided and the necessary training..

that being said..I am quite certain we can find enough woman capable both physically and with the necessary job skill sets to serve on board that 100% woman only vessel..

For those of you who think that this is harsh or unfair..when it comes down to life of death..do or not do..there is no room for political correctness....

on that same note..I have often wondered why the Navy has not commissioned an all women surface vessel...
 DrSteven
Joined: 11/2/2009
Msg: 54
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/18/2009 3:25:38 PM
Well, it'll definately be a test "under pressure". Get it?
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 55
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/18/2009 5:46:37 PM
Women in submarines???

Women behind bars, women in fast cars, women in distress, women with no dress
Women in airplanes, women who play games
Women in uniform, see that woman with her clothes gone

Women who satisfy, women you can’t buy
Like women in magazines, and women in a limousine
Women who sip champagne, women who feel no pain
Women in a disco, and women who don’t wanna know, no no

Oh, women wanting sympathy, women feeling extacy
Women who live in fantasies, bringing man to his knees

Women who boil to love, women who need a shove
Women who can’t be beat, get that woman in the back seat, yeah yeah
Women in the usa, those women steal your heart away
Women into rock ’n’ roll, women who steal the show, go go go

Women that you write songs about, women that turn around and kick you out
Women you dream about all your life
Women that stab you in the back with a switchblade knife

Oh women, oohoo, talking ’bout women, all ’round the world
Yeah women, all the naughty girls, talking ’bout women, come on baby


Sorry, couldn't help it.
Foreigner was playing on the radio.
 mysticaries
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 56
Women on Submarines
Posted: 11/19/2009 8:51:23 AM
I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would be to be one of a few (or the only) women aboard a small contained vessel full of men for months at a time. Too much potential for uncomfortable and unfavorable situations at the best, danger and scandal at the worst - and that goes for both sides. I'm not sure why any woman would want to put herself in that kind of a situation. Yes, it is true you are 'punishing' or restricting the women because of the potential of men's behavior, but you could say that about a lot of things in life. It's just dealing with reality.
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