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 daydreamin_honey
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 50
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?Page 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
If I felt comfortable enough talking to her about such things, I would warn her of his intentions. I would get him written up for sexual harassment and find a way to get him to have to attend a course/class on the subject to put a stop to his crassness. And make a huge example of him to other employees that that sort of behavior will NOT be tolerated in your place of business.
That's just me though.
 Happily Ever...maybe
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 51
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History
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:10:52 PM
Being a racist is completely reprehensible, no doubt. However, does having racist thoughts, or saying something that you overheard and that was not directed at you, something a person should be fired over? I'd say no. Sure, you can fire someone just because you don't like the way he looks or thinks, if you live in an employ at will state. But if you fire everyone who doesn't agree with you, will you have any employees left?

If it were me, I imagine I would speak to him briefly and privately, and express that while his business is his own, he should keep such opinions to himself in the workplace. Also, discuss with him how any conversations he has that might cause problems at work, especially when it comes to potential matters of sexual harassment or just dating coworkers (a bad idea in my book) are plain bad business, and fall within your area of concern. It won't change his attitudes, but it might change his thinking on approaching this particular woman, and who knows, maybe he gets tweaked enough to start looking for another gig, and the problem solves itself.
 Miss W
Joined: 12/4/2006
Msg: 52
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 8:06:15 PM
I would take him aside and let him know that you were within ear reach of the conversation and give him a warning about how it can be construed as sexual harassment and the repercussions for both he and the company. If you ever hear it again, write him up.
 floatman
Joined: 12/2/2008
Msg: 53
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:35:52 PM
yarimelma, man, you have no clue. either you're a douchebag, or have never been a manager or owner of a business. this situation can have serious implications for the OP.

so, before you go mouthing off, read up on sexual harassment, or better yet stfu.

thanks.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 54
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History
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:57:18 PM
write his ass up for sexual harassment


He didn't actually sexually harass anyone. And being a racist isn't in and of itself a crime. However, treating your coworkers disrespectfully should not be tolerated by any employer.

Listen, I worked construction for 13 years and guys, when there's no women around, can be pretty crude. You can't take everything they say seriously. I'm not making excuses for him, or saying he isn't being a jerk, but he has not done anything to harass an employee. What he *has* done is to express some very disrespectful sentiments about a fellow employee.

If it were me, ideally what I'd like to do is take him aside and say to him, privately, "Listen, I overheard you talking about __X__ in a manner that I consider very disrespectful. I expect everyone here to conduct themselves professionally and to treat each other with respect. You don't have to like you coworkers but you must treat them respectfully. I trust that I can count on you to do that."

And then I'd leave it at that. I'd keep an eye out for inappropriate behavior. I might go to the woman involved and casually ask her, "How's it going? Everything okay?" I wouldn't want to plant it that there's a problem because it's quite possible that he's never treated her weird. However, I'd watch the situation. I might talk to a lawyer just to get a sense of what's okay, what's not okay, where the boundaries are, how to conduct yourself.

Does your business have a written policy on professional conduct? You might want to think about that.

Dating on the job is a really bad idea. It really opens up lots of problematic possibilities.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 55
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:21:14 PM
And ? Who are you ? moral police ?
Unless she complains for sexual harassment ~ or they do something going against company policy. It's none of your business.
You can't control people's comments, ideas, thoughts ~ it's a free country. You were not even invited to that conversation.

I say shut the f up... and mind your own business

I agree somewhat. If you didn't like what the bloke said, mention it to him, but to want to fire him? This is a bloke's livelihood, right?

How's his JOB performance? If it sucks consistantly and HR has followed due process, then fire him.

You cannot fire somebody because you're unhappy with their moral compass.


1. I'd start a file on this guy immediately, noting all of his legitimate professional digressions. If this technical writer's statement wasn't said to her or at the worksite, it's not a legitimate digression.
2. Once you have enough of a file on this guy, post his position. Tell the department that you are seeking to expand the staff.
3. Once you hire a new employee, get the bad employee to begin to train the new employee.
4. Once the new employee is adequately trained, terminate employment on the jerk.

That is just Machievellian beyond belief. How dare you? Start a file on the bloke and deliberately engineer his termination even though you know he has not committed a work-related offence? Who are you, Dwight Schrute??


Clarification:

1. It was after normal working hours. They were in a cubicle talking. I was in a nearby cubicle and they didn't know I was there.

So, two people, having what they thought was a private conversation out of hours, were overheard by their boss who's first instinct after eaves-dropping on a private, non work-related conversation, was to fire one of them.
 trotko
Joined: 10/19/2008
Msg: 56
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:40:20 PM
what this employee did isn't right however I think Yarimelma has a point. No one complained so I really don't think allot should be done. I am not sure how big of a company this is but if it is at all possible I would bring it up at a staff meeting. Don't mention any names but say something that touches on the subject. Say you have heard some inappropriate discussions and remind your employees of the consequences and go from there. This way all your employees will get the message as I bet if you had microphones throughout the building you would hear allot more from allot of other guys. This will also let people know that if they have a problem they can talk to you or if thats not the case tell them who they can take their concerns to.
 trotko
Joined: 10/19/2008
Msg: 62
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:46:10 AM

(and you fully admitted that in a highly public forum that can be used against you in court) ...


I doubt this would fly in court because it didn't give any names. He simply asked for some advice and how he should deal with it.


i am extremely disgusted because of the words this black chick.


I could imagine kow that makes you feel however I don't think he meant this in a racial manner. Her skin is black he said a black chick. If that is offfensive I think maybe you are ashamed to be black. Ya it doesn't sound very good but really it's kind of the truth isn't it. He never said black chicks were easy like your post did he simply stated he would like to experiance sex with a black chich. And he didn't state african american chick. Yay. See everything gets turned into racial when it isn't. If someone called me a white stud. I wouldn't be offended why because I'm proud of my haritage. I would take it as a compliment as I would here the word stud and think she meant I was atractive. I see skin coulor as an attribute. I'm pollish and well fairly hary I have had woman say they didn't necessarily like it well that's there choice I don't say there racist cause they don't like hairy guys. I look at it as it is there loss because I truely do have a grat personality. And besides there are mny other woman out there who like hairy guys, even if they don't allot will look past it so I will simply move on and find someone else. I don't think this was a rasist thing as much as sexual abuse.
 trotko
Joined: 10/19/2008
Msg: 64
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 1:13:47 AM
I am not tryung to get on your case. I have no problems with other nationalities.


i was saying in general SOME people think like that! and you and i know they do


you are absolutely right but I have also seen alot of natives who turn a non racial comment into a racist one just to cause problems. Alot of people have issues but it doesn't relate to race some people just like causing trouble and they will use what ever they can against you. Obviously many of these people beleive being black is a bad thing but as long as you are proud of who you are it shouldn't bother you. They were just verbally attacking you. See which whould you prefer black chick or slut see these guys just disrespect people and if this lady was white he would be talking about some slut that he wants to sleep with. So in a way she could count her bessings.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 65
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 2:07:14 AM
Well, it depends who he said it to and the circumstances. Now, I'm not defending him saying that kind of thing at all... but if you overheard him saying it to a buddy co-worker of his like a frat boy, I wouldn't say termination. It's that kind of language that will cause problems, but given that situation it wouldn't be the worst.

That kind of guy would say the same thing about an Asian woman, a Sweedish woman.... or any woman! Saying the same thing about a Swede with that accent, and he said "so I know what it's like to f*ck a Swede!" would you have reacted the same way? In other words, it's bad all around, yes. I think it's meaningless whether he has no interest, little interest, or a lot of interest in any gal beyond "knowing what it's like" in the sack. ** It's his words & tone that were bad **

Now, if he announced it to a group of co-workers, women included -- yeah, that'd be immediate termination. I am guessing he said it among a few guys... I wouldn't say immediate termination if that seems out of his element, because he wasn't harassing her by saying that. He wasn't saying it to a group of women, nor to her. He's just being a frat-boy azzhole who ya lose respect for...

I'd take him aside and tell him that that kind of interaction between co-workers, about porking some chick at work -- is a NO NO. That kind of attitude is wrong in the workplace, and gives a horrible personal impression on him to boot... and unless you want your job in jeopardy, show some respect for the company - this isn't a frat house.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 68
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 9:23:55 AM
Maybe it's because I'm older, but as I read these post, I've come to the conclusion that this nation is nothing but a bunch of sissy ass whiners just look for something to complain about. You just love drama and making a big deal out of nothing. 95% of you would stand and watch a crime being commited and do nothing because you don't want to get involved, but let a typical red blooded male voice a sexual fantasy and a lynch mob is ready to sting him up. Fire the guy, sue him, slander him, put it on the 9:00 news. He wants to have sex with a good looking black girl....so fvcking what?...who cares. I wanted to sleep with an Asian....thank God my boss never found out, or I might find myself out of a job. Hey people....I actually did it...more than once, so come and beat my doors down and string me up or burn me at the stake. The petty minded people of my own country are begining to make me sick to my stomach.
 BlahGrim
Joined: 1/29/2004
Msg: 71
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 1:03:34 PM
More of a side note, but it never ceases to confuse me how prejudice instantly becomes discrimination when politically incorrect statements are made by a person. The former may be distasteful, but people are allowed their own beliefs and opinions are they not? Intolerance will not be tolerated. Blah.

Saying you want to have sex with a member of a certain race is no difference than any other division of humanity. Blonde, overweight, short, midget, blind, or what have you.

BTW...eavesdroppers are morally reprehensible themselves.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 72
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 1:32:43 PM

I've come to the conclusion that this nation is nothing but a bunch of sissy ass whiners just look for something to complain about. You just love drama and making a big deal out of nothing. 95% of you would stand and watch a crime being commited and do nothing because you don't want to get involved, but let a typical red blooded male voice a sexual fantasy and a lynch mob is ready to sting him up. Fire the guy, sue him, slander him, put it on the 9:00 news. He wants to have sex with a good looking black girl....so fvcking what?

He might have said it at work, but he didn't exactly walk onto the shop floor and shout it out in the middle of the morning shift.

Whilst he may have been a jerk, he was having what he THOUGHT was a private conversation AFTER HOURS with the office presumably deserted. Just the two of them engaging in a PRIVATE conversation of 'who would you do?'. Immature? Sure. Should he be strung up from the nearest tree? Definitely not! Thought control and behaviour modification is alive and well in the modern workplace, judging from some of the responses here, so happy to see this bloke lose his career, his livelihood because of ONE intemperate comment, make him pay, that'll teach him! How is his work performance? He was still at the office after hours after all of the good, non-offensive people had gone home, it was just him, the bloke he was talking to and the boss left, but hell sack him anyway despite the fact he worked back.

I work as a freelancer and often go into offices and studios where there are full-time staff. I know it doesn't matter what kind of job I do for my client, there is still no guarantee of being hired again. What I've discovered carries a lot of weight is how you get on with the full-timers. They're there all the time and often they have the boss' ear. So the name of the game is to be non-offensive, I can be terrible at my job, so long as I don't offend anybody. Oh, they can offend me alright, because I'm just a freelancer and I have no leverage.

Perhaps the reason why this particular thread has struck a nerve with me is because a private conversation I once had about a troublesome client was eaves-dropped on and it got back to them. This happened on a holiday weekend, at a neutral location and it was two freelance professionals in a closed recording studio talking about what a crappy payer the bloke was, he always beat you down to the lowest price and took months to pay, totally killing your cash flow when you did work for him. The control room door was slightly ajar and, unbeknownst to either of us, an employee of the man in question was dropping something off at the facility and 'listened in'. She then reported the contents of a PRIVATE CONVERSATION back to him.

I had outstanding invoices due and also a number of gigs booked. He rang me up and threatened not to pay the invoices and drop me as a supplier. In the end he didn't because he knew the quality of my work, and he also knew nobody else would work for him because of the very things I was discussing with the other freelancer.

The point is, a portion of my livelihood (as lousy as it was) was put at jeopardy because of an eaves-dropper, who decided to make trouble over something that was NONE OF HER BUSINESS.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 74
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 1:48:23 PM

I just don't like being a brown-noser and tattletale -

Don't you just love them? Throw 'empire-builders' into that box as well.


BTW...eavesdroppers are morally reprehensible themselves.

Agreed, they are beneath contempt.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 75
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 6:26:41 PM

Good to know there are so many gentlemen out there who don't condone this kind of crap.

I don't condone what he said, but I do support his right to have a private conversation without being sacked over it, as so many people here are suggesting.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 76
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 6:51:10 PM

I would look him straight in the face, in the company of other employees and tell him how distasteful his desires are.

Would you then go to all of the other employees and do the same thing? The gays? Lesbians? Bi-sexuals? Women who like black men? Men who like blondes or asians? Cross-Dressers? Transexuals? All of these people who've made observations, appropriate or otherwise in the staff cafeteria? Would you line them up as well?

Or would you just single this bloke out because you listened-in on a private conversation out of hours?


And then, I would tell your black employee to NEVER go out with this guy should he ever ask her.

So the boss should be in charge of his employees social calendar now? This is one of the things I find so appalling about the BOSS' behaviour in all of this, one of the reasons he wanted to fire this bloke is because the bloke admitted he only wanted sex with the lady in question because he wanted to know what it would be like.

We all have our reasons for wanting to date someone and I can assure you this is pretty common. It is bloody common amongst women. One great American friend who spent a lot of time working as an expat overseas, found herself in China where she met a fellow American who happened to be black. She dated him with the specific intention of satisfying her curiousity about making love to a black man. She also has a liking for Portugese men. Was I shocked when she told me? Not at all. We all have our preferences and for the boss to project his moral compass onto this bloke who, in every other respect is a model employee, is just appalling. And for the above poster to suggest he be publicly humiliated after his privacy was invaded is dreadful too.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 79
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 11:50:45 PM

In short, personal conversations are personal. That doesn't mean those conversations have to be had in a deserted air-locked room in order to be considered private. If I am having a reasonably quiet conversation specifically with another person at my desk, your ears are not invited to it, and I don't think you should be able to hold anything you hear against me.

Unfortunately this is no longer the case in this brave new world of our modern workplace. As numerous posters have already pointed out, all one has to do is to 'feel uncomfortable' in order for the one who caused you such great offence, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, to be require the gravest punishment. The offence doesn't even have to be actually directed at you for it to be actionable.


Women in general need to stop being such bloody pansies about everything that makes them remotely uncomfortable.

PEOPLE in general need to stop not only being such bloody pansies in finding offence, but being so vicious in their response. 'I'm SO offended, you have to pay with your job!'


Women at work have ****fests about men all the time, complaining about how all men are pigs and think with their little heads and on and on and on, but I guarantee you if a man started saying similar things every woman would have him written up for sexist comments.

The 'elephant in the room'. Women (at least the ones I know) are the worst when it comes to the objectification of men, as well as the open discussion of every physical aspect of pretty much every man they see. Reasonable people recognize this for what it is, that it isn't malicious or disrespectful, just the same as most of men's conversations about women are not malicious and disrespectful.

There are exceptions of course from bitter and vicious individuals of both sexes, but we must be wary of becoming a society where our interactions become bland and meaningless because we are too afraid of causing offence.
 tjorg
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 80
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 5:56:57 AM
Send him to diversity training and then to sexual harrassment training. Do the same for his friend(s). You can always send the whole group if you don't want to be too obvious. But if you think he's a real problem in one or both areas, just send him so he'll get the message.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 81
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 8:43:52 AM
A lot of posters on this thread are missing the point. Whether or not you think that the employee was out of line DOES NOT MATTER. Disagreement with the law doesn't mean that you can ignore it.

The reality of our times means that what the employee said or did could be construed as sexual harassment/creating discomfort in the workplace - and if that isn't pointed out to him, he may think it's OK to go further with his speech or actions, thus causing an even bigger problem. The boss needs to do what I posted earlier - not fire the guy, but take him aside and point out that this is an HR issue, is illegal, and give him a verbal warning and a written reprimand for his personnel files - just so the employer is covered in case this does escalate later.
 trotko
Joined: 10/19/2008
Msg: 83
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 12:58:14 PM

A lot of posters on this thread are missing the point. Whether or not you think that the employee was out of line DOES NOT MATTER. Disagreement with the law doesn't mean that you can ignore it.


Yourself included.No one broke the law. Even if he said this right to the womans face and she omplained which isnt the issue it's not the law. He wouldn't be dealing with the local law enforcment rather human resources which aren't cops. In an extreme case maybe authorities would be included but this wouldn't qualify. Back to the point he didn't say this to the woman and she never found out and therefore it's not making her uncomfortable. so human resources cant even step in.Unless she finds out mothing can be done
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 84
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 1:44:29 PM

Oh I know, I just don't agree with the way the modern workplace is. At the rate we're going people are going to spend eight hours a day just refusing to say anything for fear of being reported for having a personality.

This is unfortunately what's happened. My industry television in particular used to be an energetic and dynamic place to work, and it was reflected in what ended up on the screen. Now the studios are full of people who are so afraid of offending anyone and so afraid of trying something new, that everything is 'safe' and bland. There is no creative process because that would require you not to be politically-correct and maybe even swear from time to time.

We are so busy pretending to be nice we may as well be drones.


A lot of posters on this thread are missing the point. Whether or not you think that the employee was out of line DOES NOT MATTER. Disagreement with the law doesn't mean that you can ignore it.

Then the law is an ass. The bloke in question was obviously aware of the law and obviously aware social propriety because he didn't say it in front of the whole lunch room, he said it in an atmosphere of what he thought was PRIVACY ie: Nobody else around, after hours, just him and his mate. Was his mate offended? Did the eaves-dropping boss want to have him fired as well?


The reality of our times means that what the employee said or did could be construed as sexual harassment/creating discomfort in the workplace

The problem is, we all have different ideas as to our 'discomfort' levels.


- and if that isn't pointed out to him, he may think it's OK to go further with his speech or actions, thus causing an even bigger problem.

He already knew, which is why he did it in private. The bigger problem occurred when the boss listened-in to a private conversation. If the boss had an issue he should have told the bloke he was overheard and tell them both it was innappropriate, which he did not. Instead, this bloke will probably find himself out of a job and he will have not one clue why.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 85
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 4:36:58 PM
^^^ Interesting that the last two posters, who missed my point yet again, are not in the US and I presume are not US employers who have to CYA.

This isn't the type of law-breaking that makes the cops show up. Assuming that the employee did know not to speak that way in front of his intended hook-up or other employees during work hours is simply naive - he may not know, and just happened to be doing it after hours. My point - again - is that the employer who overheard the guy does have the duty to let the employee know that according to US labor laws, this is a problem, whether or not the employer and employee agree with the law. The employer has to cover the liability of the company. If another woman was there and overheard the guy's remarks, and she was offended and made a fuss, it does not matter (a) whether or not she was overreacting, (b) whether or not the comments referred to her or to the other woman, (c) whether or not the employee knew that he shouldn't make those comments in a work-related setting; by law, she could report the guy. Now you may indeed say that "the law is an ass", but these laws were written to address the more egregious cases of workplace harassment - and as we all know, sometimes the law is not applied with finesse.
 deerdog1
Joined: 12/29/2006
Msg: 86
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 5:56:22 PM
what is raciest about saying Id like to fvck the black chick ... she is after all a black chick ...he is definately not biased against blacks ... now if he said id fvck that chick if she wasnt a black chick that would be biased but still not raciest ... now if he said that i wish they wouldnt hire a black chick that would be raciest ... how does him saying he wants to date/fvck a black chick infringe on her rights ..., until she says NO of course

the very advice many of you gave got me into hot water once upon a time .... I over heard two guys saying the almost exact thing about a woman (she was not black though ) ... I verbally warned them about it documented it ..and told her what they had said .. well a month later they were married and he alleged that I was hitting on her by my actions ... she went along with his accusations and ...I was reprimanded....

just remember a lot of guys say Id like to fvck that chick .. and end up marrying the same chick ... and after she marries im she will resent anything you have told her against him

remember you are the boss ...when push comes to shove you are the enemy ..his enemy her enemy ...when you are the boss no good turn goes unpunished ..if you try to help an employee it will be used against you...mind your own business ..until someone makes it your business

NOW my advice ...make it a point to be very hard of hearing ... if no one knows you heard it then you didnt .... keep your nose in your own business ... only take action if it can be proved you know something or someone complains

even saying that it is against company policy for employees to date can get you sued ...and they will win .... you cannot tell them what they can do after hours ..unless you can prove it will affect the work place
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 87
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 7:30:00 PM

My point - again - is that the employer who overheard the guy does have the duty to let the employee know that according to US labor laws, this is a problem, whether or not the employer and employee agree with the law.

Which is exactly what the boss should have done instead of coming on to a dating site in an attempt to slur him on the internet. The boss projected his own moral bias onto an essentially HR issue, tell him to 'pull his head in' on company property, but don't crucify him!


(c) whether or not the employee knew that he shouldn't make those comments in a work-related setting; by law, she could report the guy.

So, for his ignorance, he gets fired?


Now you may indeed say that "the law is an ass", but these laws were written to address the more egregious cases of workplace harassment - and as we all know, sometimes the law is not applied with finesse.

The unfortunate by-product of that is the legislation now becomes a weapon to get rid of somebody who's not nice to be around, regardless of the quality of their work. If somebody is lacking in social skills, or worse, someone is deliberately targeted by another, they can be dealt with because they make another person 'uncomfortable. Mud sticks and it's hard to come back from a false accusation.
 trotko
Joined: 10/19/2008
Msg: 88
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/25/2009 8:26:11 PM

If another woman was there and overheard the guy's remarks, and she was offended and made a fuss, it does not matter


You are absolutely right however there is alot riding on that if. See in this case it didn't happen therefore your whole theory goes out the window with that if. That is the exact point you seem to miss.there wasn't anyone else there to get offended therefore he really didn't do anything wrong other than taking a risk of being overheard by a woman or someone who was offended.
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