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 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 276
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time? Page 12 of 54    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)


How many men would stay in a thankless job that was not valued by his manager or co-workers?


I know many men that work thankless jobs and have from the beginning of time to provide for their wife and families.
Just to have a woman leave taking the main reasons he worked so hard for.
So your argument doesn't hold water with me.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 277
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 7:57:57 AM

There are good reasons for divorce, abuse, addiction, cheating......ect.
However I doubt all 80% of women that start the proceedings have them as a reason.
So getting back on topic why do 80% of women file first........INTEGRITY


Well , thank goodness poeple other than the person involved don't get to decide what a valid reason for a divorce is..and integrity has no gender...

I've seen both genders get divorces for what I would consider less than stellar or critical reasons...and I am actually dismayed at the leave someone when things go wrong rather than try to fix it mindset...but...not my decision to make...

As to the logic argument: Unless you start from a premise that one gender or the other is "better" or "superior" by virtue of gender alone, or God gifted skills ( both illogical premises)...there is no logical way to PROVE that one is more needed than the other...and what about value? Doesn't importance really differ from person to person depending on what they value? While technology is great, and I prefer having access to it...bottom line..given a choice between technology and a great , passionate love affair...I'll go with the latter....While I appreciate the more practical skills of many men...I desire the less logical/practical ones from them more...appples/oranges in my mind...because of the value I assign to each...If someone offers me something I don't find enough value in, as their only contribution to the dynamic...why would I settle for it?
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 278
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 8:22:10 AM
OK Razzle, I'll take your post in reverse!

Well I'd love to have worked in the environment you described! Few I knew worked only 8 hours a day, sick time was always a pain, several calls while I tried to rest. I saw more than my share of co-workers achievements and contributions go unrewarded and the attendant promotion go to someone less deserving. I even know a woman who works a job, in sales, who has gone without a raise in 3 years, despite meeting her goals every year.

As for "assigning a person or group of people to assist", good luck with that, most companies say "your lucky to have a job, just make do"! I do not think the experiences I cited are gender specific and imagine that just as many women experience "thanklessness in the job arena" as men do.

I have no complaint in that area, my job while consuming, certainly helped hurt my relationship, though with regard to income, retirement and security(as in what I have to show for it) were and are great!

Now "How many men would stay in a thankless job that was not valued by his manager" I would say the same number or greater as women. I am living proof that living through your job, is not really the panacea for life many think it is. A job is what you do for money to live, not what you do to live your life.

Now onto your first point, the more important one. "Husbands don't place any value on her contributions to the family and home as a wife and or mother."

This is part of the crux of the matter, BUT it is 2 fold, just like the relationship it springs from. Again COMMUNICATION about it and how he treats and views her, are as important as what she does. Before embarking on being a SAHM or working mother, discussions should take place, about roles, chores and changing goals as family and children grow. IF the man does not adhere to the established parameters, a discussion should ensue, right when it starts, not 2 years later, when resentment has mounted.

On the other side, women should recognize, the change that such a choice will bring to their life. I doubt the joy of a child being brought into this world, trips thoughts of the limiting, repetition that will become her very existance. Straighten house, cook, change clothes, wash clothes, prepare meals, vacum, shop and then repeat, again, again, again and again for years.

As the old saying goes "the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray" springs to mind.Forestalling reentry to the workforce, post early childhood, or limiting time due to post school activities, doing those mundane jobs of shopping, cooking, cleaning force many to take jobs they would never have dreamed of. Some of this IS the problem of the woman involved, some is the man. BUT instead of sitting and trying to design a plan, to change this, the first thought, seems to be "I'll leave, rather than try and change it or discuss it". So here some women have to own a greater role in the root cause of the breakup.

The answer should NEVER be "so why bother doing a thankless job.", it should be what can WE do to change it, rather than a unilateral decision to leave. Of course I recognize, there are men, who will discount the role, refuse discussion or avoid it. In those cases, I guess no other choice would be possible. Though I know more than my share of men, who were not given a chance at that discussion, just presented a fate-a-compli. Yes I know you can provide an equal number of women who tried the discussion and failed to get a fair hearing of her complaints. There in lies the rub, COMMUNICATION, then CHANGE something few accept readily, plain and simple.

JMHO
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 279
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 10:22:00 AM
Classic ...indeed.

You are not only encouraging suppression of freedom of speech,

No, she's pointing out that you should be ignored for the simple reality that you've jumped the shark and aren't even on the same page as the thread's debate anymore, ...in another book entirely, one that doesn't "add up".
you are showing that you can’t handle disagreements, criticism,

Actually, she's showing the only argument that even applies to your responses in context to the topic = When "A" stops making sense, "B" walks away leaving "A" left to wallow in "C" a steaming pile of non sequiturs and "appeal to" logical fallacies that have nothing to do with the discussion,
...because of the tried and true axiom, P(D+F+t+T) = "Please Don't Feed the Trolls".

You people look like a dog chasing it's tail!!!....What are you going to do when you catch it?.....Bite it then you just hurt yourself and look silly!!!

Indeed, I feel stupider just having had to explain this to him validating the whole "ignore" argument -> Q.E.D.
can't properly argue, or for that matter properly communicate.

I truncated this part ^^^ of the quote because it deserves its own response ->
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?

Kinda' obvious now, ...innit?

Because women disrespect men these days. That's why.

With many examples as to why right here in this thread.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 280
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 11:09:18 AM
@ x-file

Until now, I have always had a tremendous amount of respect for you and have often found myself agreeing with you, especially in the S & P forum. But when someone someone begins to resort to thinly veiled ad hominem attacks, I know that I am dealing with someone is who coming from a place of an emotional conviction. One can neither debate or reason with an emotional conviction.

I thought that it would be fun to debate with you, since I have you found to be intelligent and well-informed. I found a flaw in your reasoning when you said this:


<div class="quote">So yes, men, as whole, in comparison to women as a whole are more valuable and certainly more important to the day to day operation in a society .

and I was using your earlier formula to point it out. Sorry you missed it. I am sure it is a failure on my part to properly communicate it.

If you cannot see the convolution and backpedaling of your own posts then I cannot reason with you. If you cannot see that logic must add up, whether you are proving a claim or disproving a claim then there is REALLY no point in going back and forth. Besides it isn't fun anymore.

And I do apologize for baiting you in my last post. That showed a distinct lack of character on my part. I am sorry.

I am no longer going to respond to your posts, not because I am conceding or admitting that I am wrong, but because I think we have derailed this topic enough as it is. If you want to continue this in PM, feel free to email me and we can have it out there.

Back to topic.

If the title of this thread were true (and I believe its not) then it is mostly likely due to an imbalance of power and a lack of communication.

So yeah...I am going to think about how best to improve this. Although my honey and I do this on a regular basis. We sometimes disagree on third party issues, but when it comes to the dynamics of our relationship we are on the same page.

With no disrespect meant for my late husband, I do wish I could have met him earlier in my life, but maybe I just wasn't ready for the type of relationship we have. I have no intention of breaking up with him, I can't seem to stop kissing him.

D@mn, I am derailing the topic again.

Sorry, folks. I think my ADD is showing.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 281
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 11:16:14 AM

Razz, don't know what world you live in but it's the modern world. Many of us guys do things around the house.

This is consistent with my experience too, but I wouldn't claim it is necessarily a "given".

I nearly did everything in my marraige. I washed most of the clothes, dishes, toilets, floors, etc. I'd say over 80%.

My marriage was similar, I was also the primary care parent to a child, I also did all the home/car repairs and renovations, tech stuff and worked (out of the home while I was the stay-at-home parent, full-time after school-age). I didn't do laundry though (Hey, I didn't know you couldn't put spandex in the dryer!), that one was "forbidden" to me, I didn't object. I also made about 99% of the meals (ex-wife was not a very good cook).

A blanket generalization like you made is ridiculous.

Often the case with blanket generalizations.

I can't even imagine a having a woman that did even 50% of chores, i never had it.

Me neither, I also never whined about it, ...nor was it a factor in me leaving my wife.

That pretty much derails your excuse for women divorcing at a high rate.

As a blanket generalization sure, but I'm sure some womens circumstance did match this though, the reasons are many. I think the reason for women being the ones most often initiating divorce (80%, I don't know, ...but I do know that women are usually the first to the paperwork) is largely a control thing, as in:

"Okay, he's made most of the decisions so far, I'm not happy, I think it's my turn to make a decision"

Not necessarily the whole (80%), but I think it has to do with a lot of the (over the 50%) discrepancy.
 MidshipMom
Joined: 7/19/2009
Msg: 282
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 11:39:23 AM

"Okay, he's made most of the decisions so far, I'm not happy, I think it's my turn to make a decision"


Interesting point. Are you saying that in a traditional marriage, a woman lacks control and ability to make decisions regarding her own life? That does not sound like somewhere I’d like to be. Would you?
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 283
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 12:24:09 PM

BUT instead of sitting and trying to design a plan, to change this, the first thought, seems to be "I'll leave, rather than try and change it or discuss it". So here some women have to own a greater role in the root cause of the breakup.


Yes agreed and I've seen this actual type of communication in action. My brother and his wife were working and they soon found that paying a babysitter just so my sis-in-law could work wasn't really helping as my bro had to do all the driving (1 hour +) and it just was costing them more. So they sat down and discussed things. Now that my niece is older, my sis-in-law has returned to work.

See, I come from a family where people actually discuss sh*t and don't worry about men or women's roles or whether the world is better with or without one sex. They want to make things better for THEIR FAMILY. I ask my bros to help me out when I can't lift a box. Neither one of us has an issue with it. We've all learned to ask for help when needed and that it doesn't mean you are weak and we have learned that we need each other as a family.

As for people who tell these stories about being used (doing all the work etc) by their husband or wife? You have to let that happen now don't you? And while you may not think so, it does come across as sour grapes.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 284
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 12:29:49 PM
Initiation

The National Center for Health Statistics reports that from 1975 to 1988 in the US, in families with children present, wives file for divorce in approximately two-thirds of cases. In 1975, 71.4% of the cases were filed by women, and in 1988, 65% were filed by women.[4]

According to a study published in the American Law and Economics Review, women currently file slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the US.[5] There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 19th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper.
[edit] Custody

In their study titled "Child Custody Policies and Divorce Rates in the US," Kuhn and Guidubaldi find it reasonable to conclude that women anticipate advantages to being single, rather than remaining married.[6]

When women anticipate a clear gender bias in the courts regarding custody, they expect to be the primary residential parent for the children and recipient of the resulting financial child support, maintaining the marital residence, receiving half of all marital property, and gaining total freedom to establish new social relationships. In their detailed analysis of divorce rates, Kuhn and Guidubaldi conclude that acceptance of joint physical custody may reduce divorce. States whose family law policies, statutes, or judicial practice encourage joint custody have shown a greater decline in their divorce rates than those that favor sole custody.

Ok some have doubted the rates while I didn't find 80% it is not far from that number. There is no doubt that women file over 2/3rd's more than men and are approaching the 3/4 mark.

Having said that notice that in states that are going to joint custody and no child support the rate that women file is dropping!!!.......Now go back and read the posts where women said that had no bearing on the rate. Seems they were wrong.

Now look at this.
Divorce Rate Statistics of 1st, 2nd and 3rd Marriages
Various studies on US Divorce rate show significant differences when a comparison is made in 1st, 2nd and 3rd marriage, divorce rate in America.

* Divorce rate in America after first marriage is from 41% to 50%.
* US divorce rate after second marriage is from 60% to 67%
* After 3 marriages the US divorce rate is from 73% to 74%
The more you marry the more you are doomed to fail.
In my research I have found some books out there for the woman seeking divorce giving advice like run up his credit cards. accuse him of affairs (falsely) Nag him the list is to long to go on.
I will give you one guess to the gender of the authors of these books.......Yep you guessed it women!!!

Do I think all women are evil not at all but the facts show women are the first to "CUT AND RUN"!!!!
The joint custody facts were very eye opening to me. Fact if she knows she is not getting the house and a support check for the kids she is more likely to stay married.
So much for all the noble reasons women were claiming for the high rate!!!
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 285
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 12:36:01 PM
Mr. Evil........some of us make ourselves much more available on the job than need be which quite often leads to the imbalance of time spent between career and family. Other than that, I agree with much of what you've stated in your post #474.....especially about discussions that should take priority when an extreme imbalance negatively impacts the relationship and/or family as a whole. It comes down to whether a man/woman wants to be married to their career.............if so, leave the opposite gender and children out of the equation.

I devote more time to my career than is expected of me because of the satisfaction and fulfillment that money doesn't buy, but the paycheque is thanks enough for me in most cases. I have to laugh at the guys who say they work a thankless job all for their wife and children, as though their were no benefits for him.


Razz, don't know what world you live in but it's the modern world. Many of us guys do things around the house.

Sure wish there were more of those guys in this part of the globe!! The divorced women I know say they were treated not much more than hotel staff at the hotel they ran for their husbands to eat, shyte, sleep and get a change of clothes before meeting his buddies or girlfriend.

I'm no ostrich, I know why women initiate the breakup........it might even be greater than 80% of the time after numerous efforts of
Honey, we need to talk
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 286
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 1:09:09 PM
The more you marry the more you are doomed to fail.
I disagree. I think the stats show - the more you divorce, the more likely you are to give up in the future.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 287
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 2:33:49 PM

I disagree. I think the stats show - the more you divorce, the more likely you are to give up in the future


Hummmm.......Splitting frog hairs here but if you don't remarry then you can't have another divorce.
So I will stick to my words!!!


According to a study published in the American Law and Economics Review, women currently file slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the US.[5] There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 19th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper.


To the poster that said this was only marriages with children. I posted two sets of stats one with children only stats and one that included all divorces.
I re posted it above in case to over looked it.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 288
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 2:56:25 PM
Interesting point.

Well, firstly I don't necessarily agree with the "80%", which may or may not be a national stat, but family law varies from region to region, I'm willing to bet that the "who initiates" ratio does as well. Some regions have no stats and overall trends aren't necessarily reflected from region to region. If you actually do look at the stats, whether or not women are more likely to initiate divorce is more dependent on regional differences in divorce laws.

BTW, those who dislike the reality that it's easier to get a divorce since "no fault" legislation was introduced, thank Ronald Reagan.
~ The Evolution of Divorce W. BRADFORD WILCOX

Nationaly, the best supported stat I could find (David Popenoe is professor of sociology at Rutgers University, where he is also co-director of the National Marriage Project) puts the average at 16% more likely. So the 80% is more like 66:33.

Are you saying that in a traditional marriage, a woman lacks control and ability to make decisions regarding her own life?


Not exactly, ...but often bad choices/decisions by one spouse effect both, consider:

"... the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be "badly behaved." Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity."
~ David Popenoe, the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University, New Brunswick, N.J.

One wonders if the "more likely" is above or below 16%.


So here some women have to own a greater role in the root cause of the breakup.


See: above

Another interesting stat I found in digging around was that 1 in three working wives earn more money than their husbands, this is actually a non-player in the divorce stat arena however as the stats for divorce are the same regardless of income disparity.


That does not sound like somewhere I’d like to be. Would you?

Nope, but I initiated the divorce in my marriage because my ex-wife would respond to reason with angry non sequiturs, it wasn't a control thing, it was an inability to communicate, and I don't "do" anger.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 289
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 3:13:26 PM
Like the post jinx! Like the analogy also.

"What possible difference can it make which one of them drove the final nail into the coffin"

Well that's the thing, sometimes, many times someone doesn't know the trees dead!

I've seen my share of threads where the end of a dating relationship came to a scretching halt, to the bewilderment of the other party. Funny thing about that too. It seems all to often, that when it's a LTR or marriage, it's the guy who is the last to know. But when it's dating, it seems its the woman who says "what happened?" We then embark on a couple of page diatribe about how he's a dog, just wanted sex, wasn't into you, you could do better, would you really want him and a host of others.

But when the thing is a LTR or marriage, we find a different tone. It's over, just move on, she needed space, she needed to grow, she needed... Funny, many times aside from a romp between the sheets, which maybe a little hard on the ego, to have been used, when a dating thing ends. There really is a lot more to lament, have long term implications and costs, other lives affected, in an LTR or marriage.

I guess in thinking about it. There are some things guys should really consider before going into any LTR with a woman. I think this is important, so I hope some will hear it and take it to heart. We had a thread a while ago, about prearranged marriages. I thought how arcane, that would never work. But the problem is or seems to be that the love thing doesn't work either. When you give yourself to another, you fail to think things through, with all it's implications and what has happened to change the dynamic between men and women. Never in the history of human existance has a gender undergone such changes as has women in the past 100 years. For that matter neither have women considered it in my humble opinion.

Over the last 80 some years, we have had the likes of Amelia Earhart and Eleanor Roosevelt capture the hearts and minds of young women. Coupled with WW 2 and working in the factories, while previously taking home economics courses changed their mindset. Along then came Jackie Kennedy, Rosa Parks and Bella Abzug who showed from their various perspectives, that women could play center stage in politics and world events.

Next came Sandra O'Connor supreme court justice, Sally Ride astronaut, Mia Hamm professional athelete and Carly Fiorina CEO of HP. Now women excelled in all walks of life. While in and of itself these are individual women, they do pose a role model for the women of their generations. It truly gives rise to the you can be anything you want notion in life.

It would behoove men to note this. While you may see life as one way, they may dream of more, and when more is achieved or worse, not. You as spouse may not be enough. Perhaps it is that marriage in it's arcane format should be forgotten, despite what many of the women claim they want.

If as jinx so eloquently argued "who cares how the tree died", why plant it at all? If as men, we are to that other poster emmajay, so useless and not worth the time to discuss it the problems, long before the demise, why dig the hole for the tree? Seems appropriate on earth day, a day of planting trees, to discuss, just not planting them at all, since 80% or so, of women see them as something of a nuisance and less of an asset.

So my cautionary note of the day is, better to have a long heartfelt, detailed, dot every i and cross every t long before you even contemplate saying "I Do" or cohabiting. Because from my limited vantage point, the women want not to discuss this, but put it down to "What possible difference can it make which one of them drove the final nail".

JMHO

EDIT to add: Peace out to all. I'm of to NOLA for the jazz fest, will take my laptop, but that's not the kind of town you usually post from! LOL See you a week from Monday.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 290
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 3:16:27 PM

BTW, those who dislike the reality that it's easier to get a divorce since "no fault" legislation was introduced, thank Ronald Reagan.
~ The Evolution of Divorce W. BRADFORD WILCOX


I don't know where this guy got his facts but they way wrong! Notice California was the SECOND state to have no fault not the first. So how is it Reagan's fault?

In 1970, California changed the way people look at divorce and made it a lot easier to get out of a marriage by passing the second no - fault divorce law in the United States. In 1953, Oklahoma passed the countries first laws doing away with the need to find fault in divorce. It took 17 years for the rest of the country to follow suit. Some would say that we have become a progressive country when it comes to our divorce laws. Some sternly, disagree.

Second point did you bother to research the stats I posted? It is not quite 80% but dang close.
Damn shame when facts get in the way of opinions!!!

This is compiled information from divorce records all across the US.
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 291
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 3:42:22 PM
Dude - you edited your post.
The change to divorce laws in California initiated the no-fault revolution.

"No-fault" divorce was pioneered in the United States by the state of California when Governor Ronald Reagan signed into law the Family Law Act of 1969 on September 4, 1969 (effective January 1, 1970)... At about the same time that California adopted "no-fault" divorce, the National Conference of Commissioners of Uniform State Laws (NCCUSL) appointed a committee to draft a uniform marriage and divorce law for consideration by state legislatures, and the American Bar Association's Family Law Section was asked to appoint a committee to work with the committee from the NCCUSL


Geez, man - you ripped off your second paragraph out of aboutdotcom (without showing it as a quote), but you chose to leave out this part of the same article?
The true pioneer of no-fault divorce is the state of California because of the Family Law Act of 1969. The act was signed by Governor Ronald Reagan and took effect on January 1, 1970. By 1983, every state but New York and North Dakota had passed their own forms of no-fault divorce laws.
A little selective editing to protect your position on the "greatest president?" Why did you delete that statement?
Damn shame when facts get in the way of opinions!!!
nice try.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 292
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 4:01:49 PM
I did some more digging and found the OK was the first state to have no fault and didn't want to mislead anyone.
As far as him being the greatest President of modern times he was.
He saved this country. After Carter and the Dems had the economy in shambles!!! I am sure you can remember the 19% interest rates of the Carter years.
They can try and blame Reagan but the fact is OK had the law 17 years before CA!!!
Now who's doing selective editing?
Again if you believe everything you read you will be misinformed.

the statement is The true pioneer of no-fault is the state of California......Tell me how can that be when the state of OK had it 17 years prior?

AGAIN IT IS A DAMN SHAME WHEN FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF OPINION!!!
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 293
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 4:10:55 PM
It's referring to what initiated the spread of no-fault across the US. The legislation in OK did not have that impact. I did not selectively delete anything without showing it as a quote. You took text from an on-line source without showing it in a quote box. I don't know how else to explain. You are the same guy who couldn't understand the irony in my other post and took it seriously, so I doubt we have much potential to communicate successfully, anyway.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 294
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 4:31:00 PM
I only use quote boxes to quote other posts from the forum. Where do you think CA got the idea from? The FACT is it started in OK not CA.
Pioneer means to be the first.......CA was not OK was it is fact look it up for yourself.
I only deleted misinformation and the info that shows the OK law being first also talks about the CA law.......Only the truth about were no-fault started is shown.
Did I edit my post yes I did, the info was wrong. I never want to mislead anyone.
The opinion that CA was the pioneer of no-fault is not true so would you have me leave info on here that was wrong?
OK set the stage for CA law plain and simple.
I really don't see your complaint.

To the below post OK did it in 1953 That is 17 years before CA. You can check but I have a feeling it didn't take 17 years for the bill to be passed through the CA house and land on ole Ronnie's desk!!!!!
Wow are we really grasping at straws here.
Fact OK had the law first!!!!
Again it is a damn shame when fact gets in the way of opinion!!!!!!
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 295
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 5:44:46 PM

the statement is The true pioneer of no-fault is the state of California......Tell me how can that be when the state of OK had it 17 years prior?
This is against my better judgment, but if you are sincere in trying to understand, here are the reasons why you see that statement all over the Internet:
While you can currently get a "no fault" divorce in any state, California is the FIRST to comprehensively rewrite their statutes to have only No-fault grounds for divorce. Oklahoma introduced a no-fault option, but STILL has fault grounds for divorce. It is not a NO FAULT state. As a matter of fact, "In 1933, New Mexico became the first state to allow divorce on the ground of incompatibility. This new ground reduced the need for divorcing spouses to show fault." It is the striking notion of having ONLY the option of a no-fault divorce as ORIGINALLY legislated/pioneered by California (and signed into law by Ronald Reagan) that kicked off the massive revisions of divorce laws across the USA.

Once again, California is a NO FAULT state. You CAN'T assign fault in a divorce. Oklahoma is NOT a no fault state. You CAN assign fault in Oklahoma. It has a no-fault option, but you CAN assign fault. Not having a fault option was a radical idea in it's time and Ronald Reagan signed the massive overhaul into law in California, the FIRST state to legitimize and actually legislate (pioneer) a NO FAULT divorce law (versus an optionto pursue fault or not, as in Oklahoma). This law pioneered the concept of not assigning fault to anyone, under any circumstances or for any reason. The FIRST law of its kind in USA.
http://www.divorceselfhelp.com/pages/grounds.html#Grounds%20for%20Divorce%20by%20State

BTW, there is a recent move afoot to reintroduce fault in some states in an attempt to stem divorce.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 296
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 6:02:21 PM
So how is it Reagan's fault?

He popularized it.


Where do you think CA got the idea from?

Let's check...
...indeed, one likely reason for Reagan's decision to sign the bill was that his first wife, Jane Wyman, had unfairly accused him of "mental cruelty" to obtain a divorce in 1948....
~ The Evolution of Divorce W. BRADFORD WILCOX

"unfairly" ....(snicker).



Second point did you bother to research the stats I posted? It is not quite 80% but dang close.

Your latest stat was from 1988 at 65%, the previous stat of 70% was from 1975, ...my stat was current at 66%, ...that's 16% over median, not 20%, not 25%.

Um, ...you do realize that 66% is two thirds, ...right?

EDIT:

To the above post.....

70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper


....sigh

Damn shame when facts get in the way of opinions!!!

Indeed, your opinion on the question posed in the OP is in post #287

"When life does not match the happily ever after of the fairy tales they jump ship to another male that they think will be able to give them that ending."

Got facts for this?

This is compiled information from divorce records all across the US.

As not all states publish divorce stats.

Divorce figures exclude data for California, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Louisiana, and Minnesota, because those states do not even collect divorce rate information.
~ National Vital Statistics Report - Volume 58 Number 12. (2007-2009)

 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 297
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 6:02:36 PM
Better check the law you can file at fault in any state. All you have to do is file on the grounds of the old laws. You do have to have prof of the grounds you claim but filing for divorce for adultery and other grounds is still allowed.
No fault is an option not a mandate.
BTW New York is the only state in the union that does not have a no-fault law. You have to file at fault or be legally separated for more than a year to get a divorce without grounds in New York.
So your statement of filing no-fault in any state is incorrect!
The no-fault option was law was passed in OK first.

I was born in GA I was a Air Force brat and lived all over I now live in FL but my birthplace does not change.
You can spin this anyway you want the FACT is the law was first passed in OK.
Please feel free to check the laws filing under for grounds is still a way to legally file in any state.
The straws are getting thinner!!!

To the above post.....
70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper

You are picking and choosing your stats......if you will read all of them the above 70% and climbing stats are from all divorces the one you quoted was just the ones were children were involved.
The overall filing first stats show it is closer to 80% than your 66%!!!
I know it takes time to read and comprehend but it save a lot of explaining when you do so please put the effort in before you post something that is not true.

One other thing check the source of my stats they are not compiled by the states but a Law group. The names are in my postings if you would like to check them out.
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 298
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 6:10:16 PM
Better check the law you can file at fault in any state. All you have to do is file on the grounds of the old laws.
Dear gawd. No you can't. The laws in CA were overhauled. The "old laws" have been expunged (hence, the "pioneering" status of the revised California Divorce laws). They no longer exist. I provided a link to a tabular format of the current no fault status of a number of states. You CANNOT assign fault in California. I was born and raised there during the Reagan era. I can't help you anymore, I'm afraid, but check the link if you want to know which states have grounds for fault. For the last time, CA is NOT one of them. Good luck.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 299
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 6:18:51 PM
The point of no fault divorces is it's an AGREED upon settlement of all matters that effect the break up..and cuts down considerably in both time, money and also acrimonious divorces...no one is forced to do anything they don't agree with..and it also cuts down on post divorce bitterness and anger...

I don't know...are some men suggesting that divorce should always be difficult for a woman in particular, so she if FORCED to stay married, even if she is unhappy....isn't that taking a major step backward for "equality"?

Kudos to you guys who listened, helped and took your exes concerns seriously...but, in my experience, you are so much the minority...I have men who I just go on a date or two who pretty much dismiss ( or dis)anything I say or think that they don't get or agree with...I know there must be more enlightened, reasonable men...but, they must all be taken or something, because I haven't met many...

Here's some honesty for you....I'm not ruling out getting married again..but, it's not a goal...and the reasons why are:

I've been on my own for a long time...I have made all the decisions, and while they haven't always been the best ones...overall I'm happy with them..and there is no one telling me why I can or cannot do something I want to do..no discussion..just a statement of how it's going to be...

I don't have to keep justifying or explaining while I feel the way I do about something..or, even worse , apologizing for it...

I handle my money how I want to handle it...

I don't have to fight with anyone if I want to buy new underwear...lol..or shoes...lol..

This all boils done to trust for me...if I find a guy I can trust to have both our best interests at heart, and not just his....who even when he doesn't understand how I feel about something,he listens and makes an effort to understand..or, at least accept..who knows what romance is..and overall...gets me, and likes me just as I am..flaws and all ( instead of constantly telling me whats wrong with me, or how I don't measure up)..I'd be willing to take that chance again...

And I'm not saying these men don't exist...but, I sure don't see a lot of them around..especially on the forums, and anywhere in my age group ( younger guys, especially those who haven't been divorced yet, don't seem to hate women as much)..where I see a lot of angry men who really don't like women, or being nice to them...its' discouraging, even if the forums represent a minority...

I like men generally...I don't even think they are all bad or dogs or anything, I like my ex husband, lol...I do think there are an awful lot of them that think women have ruined their lives, and aren't willing to see or understand where women are coming from...and appear to want to keep control of us...still...instead of appreciating us for who we are and how we are different...or, accepting that we have equal footing as PEOPLE now..

As has been said before....communicating would be great....and I see a lot of men say that too...but, my experience has been...if it isn't important to them, or they don't understand what you are saying or why...they pretty much dismiss it..I've actually known two men who preached the communicating thing...yet, when obviously something happened ( I , to this day, don't know what it was...lol), that bothered or upset them...they just disappeared...never another word...and this was after a long time too...

I'm willing to meet men halfway, heck even more than half...I don't see that being offered in return...
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 300
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/22/2010 6:27:36 PM
Never in the history of human existance has a gender undergone such changes as has women in the past 100 years. For that matter neither have women considered it in my humble opinion.


I've said this a million times on these forums that men cannot possibly understand the fact that most of us came from a stay-at-home mom situation, yet were instructed to do differently when out on our own. So we saw one thing, but were told another.

And as I've always said, men have not had to change but rather watch these changes and wonder what happened - which was confusing to them as well. The changes they had to make were because of the changes that happened to women.

*shrug*


have men who I just go on a date or two who pretty much dismiss ( or dis)anything I say or think that they don't get or agree with...I know there must be more enlightened, reasonable men...but, they must all be taken or something, because I haven't met many...


Yeah, I haven't met many either who can just say "I see your point, but I am still thinking I like this". They just drop the subject.....For example: One guy was talking about how organic food was much better for us. Now, I don't necessarily disagree and I let him know that, BUT I brought up a discussion point that scientists have not seen full life cycles of the health of someone purely on organics and perhaps until studies are done in that vein we really cannot tell. Now, I didn't know whether studies had been done or not, but I simply brought it up as a possible. He refused to acknowledge I might be right or provide some examples of how I could be wrong - he just dropped the subject rather than admit I could be right or say what I often say "hmmm, good point, we should check that out". I've had this happen too many times to count.


I've actually known two men who preached the communicating thing...yet, when obviously something happened ( I , to this day, don't know what it was...lol), that bothered or upset them...they just disappeared...never another word...and this was after a long time too...


Yep, this has happened to me too. Are men that afraid of having an argument that they just keep quiet? My family told me many times that had me and my ex argued more, we might still be together. The fact that he wasn't able to voice his displeasure over anything really made communication difficult. Women often do things that annoy men - why the hell doesn't someone speak up about that? You might think it is nothing now, but if it keeps bothering you?

As for the coffin analogy, that was my little tidbit first BTW: "but the postings from some people on here really give me pause and in some ways continue to put nails in the seemingly increasing relationship coffin".
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