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Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?      Home login  
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 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 351
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how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time? Page 15 of 54    (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54)
I actually have company, lol..and can't say much...but MJ:

I'm pretty sure the vows say " love, honor and cherish " do they not? I'd say, in my case, those were broke in spades...

The reasons I left my husband had nothing to do with my personal issues at all...those weren't his to fix...

Thanks wishes and sweetness and emma for the help...

Back later...
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 352
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how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 6:43:46 PM
Maffers: It appears you have the same listening "defect" my ex had...no wonder nothing changes...

First you say take responsibility for your own issues..and then when I say I did, that they weren't his to fix..you say I'm blaming him or skirting the issue? WTF? You make no sense...What I said was : my issues had nothing to do with why I left him...they weren't connected or part of the problem...my part of the problem I both owned and tried to fix/accommodate for his benefit...I DID not get the same courtesy in return...I did everything I humanly could including counseling ( both individual and couple)..my goals were not unrealistic and that was confirmed both by the professional , and later my ex husband...he did nothing to try and make it better, or fix the issues..he wouldn't believe there were any...

He mistreated me...he wouldn't stop mistreating me...he thought my feelings were a sign of weakness and irrelevant..and it has nothing to do with fairy tales or unrealistic expectations...he also suffered from this penchant of many men that think anything that would make their partner happy that is out of their comfort zone or just "silly" in their mind is "unrealistic"...

Expecting to be treated with love by someone who professes to love you, is neither a fairy tale nor unrealistic,,

And speak for yourself..Ive had exactly two failed relationships in almost thirty years..and while I can say that I had some responsibility for my marriage failing...I can state with absolute certainty that the other long term relationship..the only mistakes I made were being with him in the first place , and putting up with it as long as I did...

And it's big of you to admit that your mistake was marrying her in the first place...that doesn't sound like much about responsibility for what behavior of yours during the marriage attributed to it failing...

I initiated because it was the only option left....and he was never going to do it...
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 353
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 6:45:23 PM
I think that the single most obvious absurdity in this thread is the idea that it follows that "initiate" presumes fault. The rest of the many and myriad absurdities in the thread built on this absurdity are just so much smoke and mirrors trying to hide a post hoc fallacy.

YMMV%
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 354
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 6:47:50 PM
jinx Thank you for getting this back on topic. I agree with a lot of what you said and you have brought up points of view that make me think on others......KUDOS!!!

I am going to make some comments to try and expand on that learning.


Okay, if there's data that says that in states with the presumption of joint custody (yay! how it ought to be!), women file less often percentage-wise ---> it means MEN file more often percentage-wise. Unless you can prove those states have fewer divorces among families with children ... the turnabout is fair play question is then "why are MEN doing the filing in those states?


This is true however though the percentage of men filing goes up only because of the womens numbers coming down.
The number of men filing stays the same. So it is not really fair to say in these states more men are filing.


(3) men refuse, or are unable, to see the red lights she is flashing months in advance, leaving her to be the one to finally say "bye"? male ego might be the key in this possibility.

This ^ is what I've experienced and seen, except I have no idea how much, if at all, "male ego" has been involved. Months or years of trying to foster communication about divisive issues, and getting either no response or empty promises to engage with her (or him) on addressing them will leave many frustrated enough to call the relationship quits. I've mostly seen this happen due to addictive and other self-destructive behaviors that the other person refuses to address. I think I know just as many men as women who have decided to end their relationships because they have done all that they can do, and they can't "fix" the other person's problems, as much as they wish they could.


Here is where men and women differ in communicating. The man asks what is wrong the woman gives a signal or lines to read between or the dreaded IDK or NOTHING.
She in her mind told him all he needs to know, the man is going HUH?

Men are not good at deciphering the hidden messages of women. Kinda like trying to talk to someone from another country when neither person speaks the others language.
Ladies if you really want your man to know what you want you have to tell him verbally in his tongue. It is really simple just say what you mean. (if you do this while he is watching the game you have wasted your breath!!!)......lol

Again thanks for the post we can get something out of.

emmmjay
I understand what you said but you can't do math like that. You are taking filings that women did and attributing them to men.
Anyway you slice it you have to keep the numbers to the right group. again of the 1000 700 are women and 300 are men.
To keep the math true you have to divide the women in half from their true number of 700 same for the mens 300.
The way you are trying to do it just doesn't add up.
Percentages are great to show how many of a certain group do what but to figure the math you have to use true numbers.
Not trying to be mean just trying to show you the error of your math.


Not for the women who were trapped in terrible marriages, but could not leave because of the social stigma, lack of careers, and financial resources.


I see your point here and it is not far off what I have been saying. That is when deciding to divorce what is the cost?
I agree that nobody should live in an abusive marriage or one that the other spouse cheats and neglects the other.
My problem comes from people women and men flippantly getting a divorce because they just want to or refuse to work on their marriage.
I like this thread because if we as people will realize the damage that divorce is doing maybe we will put more thought and effort into the union.
Divorce is never good we all should be learning how to correct the problems so we can enjoy being married. That goes for both sexes. If the numbers were reversed I would be saying us guys need to pull our heads out of our butts and find the problem. The truth is with the numbers being so far off balance women need to find the problem on their end.

Read maffers post #574 he is much more eloquent than I.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 355
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 6:56:04 PM
I didn't overlook that at all but it takes two. I suppose she had no input in the way her husband treated her? She admitted she would tell him IDK when asked what is wrong......a person gets to the point when there is no communication they quit asking and caring. We don't get answers just IDK's How do you work out a IDK?


Someone deserves to be treated like the following because of the above?


Do you consider constant criticism and belittling of someone loving?
Do you consider someone who consistently talked about how inadequate/flawed you were loving?
Do you consider someone who never in ten years, bought you flowers, or got you a card for any special occasion unless specifically asked to loving?
Do you consider someone who never did even the littlest, smallest of things for you ..without complaining about it ...loving?
Do you consider someone who let other people attack and abuse you, and kept silent loving?
Do you consider someone who after you had major surgery, was so angry you had to miss six weeks of work, refused to come to the hospital for a few days, and barely spoke to you during your recovery, and hired someone else to help you till you get back on your feet loving?


Not sure if you meant that, but it sure comes across that way and if you didn't mean that, well perhaps you need to work on YOUR communication skills.

Most people lack the real courage for real communication. It's something people work on every day and to come on here and act you men are the kings of communication? Take a lesson from Mr. Evil, his wisdom shines through in his posts. He easily admits his faults and can address his partner's faults without sounding bitter.

Maybe if you really lost something of importance, you'd realize what you had and take some stock of your life. Most of you have taken the things you had for granted, and you still refuse to see the good out of it. How can you possibly lead a happy life bogged down because you are unable to see the good in what you once had? You guys have latched onto the whole "you have to be happy as a person first", when you don't seem happy, not judging from your posts. So I wonder then why you seek MORE women to date?

Dunno, just seems strange to me. Perhaps folks who have children think differently because their children are a reminder of that happy time and they have to be a role model for their children?
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 356
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 7:29:38 PM

I didn't overlook that at all but it takes two. I suppose she had no input in the way her husband treated her? She admitted she would tell him IDK when asked what is wrong......a person gets to the point when there is no communication they quit asking and caring. We don't get answers just IDK's How do you work out a IDK?


Someone deserves to be treated like the following because of the above?


Do you consider constant criticism and belittling of someone loving?
Do you consider someone who consistently talked about how inadequate/flawed you were loving?
Do you consider someone who never in ten years, bought you flowers, or got you a card for any special occasion unless specifically asked to loving?
Do you consider someone who never did even the littlest, smallest of things for you ..without complaining about it ...loving?
Do you consider someone who let other people attack and abuse you, and kept silent loving?
Do you consider someone who after you had major surgery, was so angry you had to miss six weeks of work, refused to come to the hospital for a few days, and barely spoke to you during your recovery, and hired someone else to help you till you get back on your feet loving?


You misunderstood what I meant and maybe I could have put it better.
Let me try.
It takes two each party is responsible for 50% of the marriage. However each person is 100% responsible for themselves.
Was he like this when they got married? If so she knew what she was getting and married him anyway. If not how much of her responses and attitude towards him caused him to react to her as he did. (not saying it is ok just that she could of had a effect on his demeanor) I just can't picture him saying "I DO" and turning into this monster.
I am NOT blaming her for the failure of her marriage just saying that it takes two.


Maybe if you really lost something of importance, you'd realize what you had and take some stock of your life. Most of you have taken the things you had for granted, and you still refuse to see the good out of it. How can you possibly lead a happy life bogged down because you are unable to see the good in what you once had? You guys have latched onto the whole "you have to be happy as a person first", when you don't seem happy, not judging from your posts. So I wonder then why you seek MORE women to date?


I lost two marriages that I never broke my vows to. I also gained two children that are my pride and joy. As far as being bitter that is not the case. Jaded maybe, but if the right woman came along I would take a chance again.(but with a iron clad pre-nup)
Happy I am. I have moved to the gulf coast and am enjoying life. I can't remember being so happy. However it would have been much better sharing this life with my last ex wife.
You see when a man looks at the stats and realizes he has a 30% chance of his marriage working even if he does everything humanly possible. It kinda puts a damper on the thought of being that vulnerable again.
I am only here for the forums and right now I have no plans on marring again. Or even to date. The last few ladies that contacted me I told right away I was not dating. Funny thing is when I told them one copped a tude because I was up front with her. My headline states I am here for the forums only. I even wished her luck in her quest on here!!!
hope this clears up my statements and everyone understands my position better.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 357
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how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 8:34:39 PM
I try so hard not to let things boil to gender difference, but so many of these threads degenerate into fostering a gender war that I think a few things need to be addressed. First of all, to assume that you know the motives of women, when not only are you not a woman, you are not THE particular woman in any circumstance, is ludicrous. No one, male or female marries with the intention of molding another being into their model of a perfect spouse, save for the few who live in fairy tale land, and they are certainly not as abundant as one would think having read these threads!

Second, the fact that women file for divorce more often than men doesn't mean that they are the initiators of the breakup. Rare is the breakup that is initiated by filing for divorce. The majority of divorcees do not take divorce as lightly as seems to believed when one reads these threads. Yes, men & women communicate differently, and apparently the men who post here recognize this, yet not one of them has stated that they have done anything to try to communicate in a manner which would benefit them in a relationship. When you cease to ask & cease to care, you initiate the end of a relationship, regardless of your gender.

Women most certainly do not have everything to gain & nothing to lose from divorce. Both parties suffer from the loss of their family, and I don't know any woman who has simply been handed over the marital home. I know I bought my ex out of the house, as he didn't want it. So, financial gain wasn't the result, either.

To state that doing everything humanly possible will still result in one's wife leaving them is a meaningless statement, as divorce stats don't and can't take into account "doing everything humanly possible". Truth is, most of us don't do everything humanly possible, although plenty of us do a great deal towards avoiding divorce.

We could argue that women do the majority of sacrifice in a marriage, and the majority of work. We could say that woman care more, that women are actually more independent & capable, that women are the ones who acknowledge the detrimental effects a marriage is having on them & their families, and that that is why they file more often. Does it really matter? Marriage is between two people, and obviously, since most marriages end in divorce, something isn't working. I think our focus is, well, out of focus.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 358
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 9:52:27 PM
I see what you are saying half are justified ok lets go with that.
The correct way to figure that out would be half of 700 is 350 that is the amount of justified and un just divorce that women file for.
Now for the men working off the same 50% means 150 are justified and 150 are un just.
So lets find out the correlation of the unjust.
350 for women and 150 for men add them together for 500 so you are still at a 70% to #30% ratio because you no longer have 1000 total. Only 500 so the women are still at the same percentage.
The just rate would be the same also.
Just trying to say that it is a 50/50 split does not show the true percentage of who is in the wrong.
Simply put you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
I do understand you are saying that half of each filing group is in the wrong. What you seem to be missing is since the number of filings is higher for women that it makes them responsible for a higher number of divorces.
The womens number is 350 and the mens number is 150. Ergo the women still have a higher fault rate than men.
womens 50% is 350 mens 50% is 150 which means women are responsible for 200 more divorces per 500 than men. Or 400 more per 1000.
That is why you have to check the numbers when dealing with percentages.
50% is the number you divide by not the product of the equation.......Sorry but the way you are looking at it is wrong. Math does not lie.
 Wishes Granted
Joined: 3/6/2008
Msg: 359
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how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 10:42:44 PM

The truth is with the numbers being so far off balance women need to find the problem on their end.
There you go assuming that just because the women files more often that somehow it has to be her fault that the marriage is not being held together.

What you seem to be missing is since the number of filings is higher for women that it makes them responsible for a higher number of divorces.
NO, it dosen't . Get off that bone dawg..
It only makes them responsible for filing.. The reasons for the divorces have not been established, nor have you provided stats and nor will you ever be able to prove that because women file more, that the divorce was her fault. The only "blame" you can lay with any credibility is that the women files most. You can spout all the stats you want.. Just quit assuming who and why is to blame.


think that the single most obvious absurdity in this thread is the idea that it follows that "initiate" presumes fault. The rest of the many and myriad absurdities in the thread built on this absurdity are just so much smoke and mirrors trying to hide a post hoc fallacy.

No kidding!
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 360
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 11:10:21 PM

There you go assuming that just because the women files more often that somehow it has to be her fault that the marriage is not being held together.

With a 70% filing rate for women just to get to a true even 50% fault on each side would mean that out of the 70% filing 71.5% would have to have just cause.......Do you really think that almost 72% of the women filing have just cause? GET REAL!!!!


NO, it dosen't it only makes them responsible for fileing.. The reasons for the divorces have not been established, nor have you provided stats and nor will you ever be able to prove that because women file more, that the divorce was her fault. Get off that bone dawg..
You can spout all the stats you want.. Just quit assuming who and why is to blame.


Go back and read the posts this is a hypothetical question a woman ask not a fact!!! I never claimed it was based on anything but her question!!!! GEZZZZZZ
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 361
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/24/2010 11:54:08 PM

I meant in the percentage sense - that it begins to even out, therefore it's a tandem more men/fewer women thing. Apologies for not making that clear.

I did understand but out of 1000 divorces using the 70% rate w/o joint custody that is 700 filings by women leaving 300 by men.
NOW FOR EXAMPLE ONLY THESE ARE NOT FACTUAL NUMBERS!!!
Lets say 100 women decide not to file. That would mean there would be 900 people filing now instead of 1000. So lets set the percentages. The percentage for women now is still 67% pushing the mans number up by only 3%. That is assuming the the joint custody laws doesn't keep even one man from filing.....unlikely at best. So you see it really dosen't change much.


they do raise that reasonable hypothesis.

I agree but seeing as we are dealing with law to convict someone of a crime is proff beyond a reasonable doubt. Meaning if a reasonable person can believe it you should convict.
So to give credence to their hypothesis if it is reasonable to conclude this it has a bases.


at the time states were switching to a presumption of joint custody, those states were also adopting optional, and in many cases, mandatory mediation. It's acknowledged that mediation is effective in fostering communication and resolving conflict. Sometimes it's that mandatory mediation that kills the divorce and saves the marriage - the couple finally really communicates.


Again I agree that the mandatory mediation helps but seeing as it is mandatory the men that file have to go through it also, it would be sexes to think it would work better for one sex than the other. If so the percentage of marriages saved would be equal. Negating the effect on the divorce rates between me and women.


"Nothing" equals "I've already tried to talk to you about this you over and over, and you've blown me off, told me I was 'over-thinking again,' and labeled it 'nothing,' so there ya go ... it's that 'nothing' thing again." Men oughta like succinct (jk)
"IDK" equals "I don't know how to say this right now, and/or without hurting your feelings, and/or without it turning into a big off-topic argument, and/or in words that I think you'll understand, and/or in such a way that you won't blow me off yet again [see above]. Please tell me, right now, that you are willing and able to listen and communicate."
The burden for adjusting communication styles lies equally with both people, whether they are good at it or not. We do this in our work lives, with different ages, genders, and backgrounds - the least we can do is try our very best at home.


the agreement here is that women talk in code to their mate. The same woman going into a business negotiation would have to put her thoughts in plain English. So wouldn't it be prudent to assume, if she is able to convey her thoughts in the boardroom she could do the same at home? It is the way all reasonable people communicate. Negating the need for the husband to learn a language that is has it's meaning changed all the time? (come on now you have to admit women do this)....lol

Jinks I am enjoying debating you you have valid points and class you have surely opened my eyes to some points I had over looked and while we may not see eye to eye I respect your stand!!! kudos again and looking forward to your reply.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 362
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 1:49:44 AM

I never agreed or said that "women talk in code." I was just offering my interpretation of what some women mean when they say those two particular things. Men use shorthand, too: "Do you want to take a shower?" does not simply mean "do you want to take a shower?"

I've been in many meetings with female and male executive-level managers. None of them communicate in anything like gender-based stereotypes in the boardroom. They may outside the boardroom, but in structured communication settings like formal meetings, courtrooms, emergency rooms, etc, everyone is on the same page, in my experience.


Is a job more important that a marriage? I think not. So if the need to be able to be understood in a boardroom is enough incentive to get a women to say what she is thinking in english then her marriage should be more important. This goes back to women communicate at me not with men.

Having said that I do agree men have sayings we use however asking a women if she wants to take a shower is pretty obvious to what he wants.
Also when a woman says the word nothing it could mean 10 different things coming form the same woman. With no context pray tell is a man to figure which of the 10 meanings she is using?


My point was that all of us flex our communication styles to some extent, depending on who we are with, and where we are. If your SO is important to you, you should meet him/her halfway. If you expect the other person to come all the way your way, you will end up without that SO. Rinse and repeat.


This is fine in light banter and playful sex talk but to depend on getting a important message across it is just not a good idea. Matter of fact it is a bad idea.
I have a saying that has served me well...."Lets have a understanding now so we won't have a misunderstanding later" Wouldn't you say that is sound advice?
So to think someone should use anything but plain talk and letting your true feelings know in a discussion that could effect a marriage is detrimental to the relationship at best.


Kuhn and Guidubaldi have drawn conclusions based on next to nothing. They do not present any correlations other than their own speculations between the drop in divorce rates for couples with children in joint custody states, and the other batch of stats they present that show women filing about two thirds of the time in divorces involving children. They themselves establish that the data is incomplete and old. They themselves establish that in the states they looked at, only roughly half of divorces even involve child custody. They consider ZERO data about the roughly half of divorces of couples without children in the home.
The criminal justice "reasonable doubt" standard is not the standard that is applied to evaluating social research. Two entirely different things. I'm confident in saying that because I am professionally quite familiar with standards of proof in both law and social research.


I will concede your abilities, however I posted the quote a few pages back and they stated.

"In their study titled "Child Custody Policies and Divorce Rates in the US," Kuhn and Guidubaldi find it reasonable to conclude that women anticipate advantages to being single, rather than remaining married.[6] "

These men done the study this is their words, they are the experts if they find it reasonable, and they clearly say they do then I would think it should pull some weight.

As I said I enjoy debating you however on some thing it looks like we will have to agree to disagree.
Any comment or point you would like to make I will be delighted to read.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 363
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 11:08:39 AM

Of course math does not lie. My math is not wrong. You and I are simply making two very different points. You are focused on who does the filing and making a correlation that the person doing the filing bears more responsibility for the break down of the marriage. I strongly disagree.

Furthermore, as I said before, I was giving the benefit of the doubt when stating that, hypothetically, half of women who file for divorce are doing so for frivolous reasons. I do not know ONE woman, not ONE, who left for a BBD. I don't know of ONE who left simply because she was bored. NONE.


The way you are trying to twist the stats so wrong. you are trying to divide a portion of a percentage. What are you going to do with the rest of the equation?

The simple fact that more women file gives a more than reasonable chance that more of them file for a reason other than BROKEN VOWS.
That is my definition of unjustified filings. In other words if the vows are not broken by the man and she files that is unjustified. If she has broken the vows then then the fault of the filing is squarely on her!

You say you don't know one that left for the BBD well out of the divorces that I know about there were 3 women that did so. They had all cheated with other men and all 3 of the men had money. They left their husbands and were living or married within weeks of leaving. (in GA a divorce only takes 30 days to be final).

Now for the other divorces I was privy to 2 of them the women left because of apathy toward the man. Neither man cheated or abused them in any way. The women were tired of being married. This is the fairy tale theory I speak of. (again not in the vows) Funny thing both ladies after being treated like meat by the single crowd tried to reconcile their marriages. But the damage was done.
The one marriage I mentioned earlier was the mans fault he cheated and she divorced him. Guess what I THINK HE IS A DOG!!! He broke his vows and she had every right to send him packing.

So out of the 6 divorces I have been close enough to to really know the facts there were 4 known cheaters. 3 women and 1 man. Two women that I don't know if they cheated but threw away a good man to play the field.
So going by those numbers what would you think?



When I was married, and things started to go wrong, I DID want to work on it. Why wouldn't I? I loved the guy. I wanted to keep my family together. I didn't want to be a poor single mother. I tried everything I could think of to fix the situation from my end, but my ex would not hear that any part of the problems had to do with him. As long as HE thought the problems were insignificant, he had no interest in fixing them. I begged him to go to counseling with me, but he would not hear of it. After years of misery, I finally left, and what did he say? How can you leave me without even working on it?! Let's go to counseling!

That is an example of something called "too little, too late", a concept which I strongly believe most men simply FAIL to grasp. It does NOT come from a place of anger, or "I'll show YOU!". It comes from having lost that loving feeling, and it comes from having been essentially forced to detach from the SO over a long, painful time, so that the bond is broken.I know many, many, women who have divorced, and I know for a fact that my story is very typical. You know what else? I am the one who filed.


Ok I can believe this with no problem. I happen to know of one marriage that this was the case.
However in the vows you took did the official say in case of "too little to late"? I believe as long as a person is married they should give it a try.
Again back to the vows. Why are they so important because that is what all marriages are based on. If you make a vow it should trump all things. I mean you stood in front of people and God and VOWED to be a couple till one of you were dead.


YES, YES,YES! At least that many divorces filed by women have just cause! Maybe more. When a man files for divorce, I am sure you feel that he has just cause, why is it so hard for you to understand that women have actual REASONS for what they do??? Get real!


So you really believe that out of the 700 women per 1000 that file 71.5% have husbands that have broken the vows? That would be 500.5 women out of 700! There is know way that is correct. But assuming you are correct then surely the same number of men filing are justified. That would be 214.5 out of 300. I doubt that too. The disparity in the numbers is there you can choose to ignore it if you choose but the chance of 71.5% of women filing and having just reason is about the same as winning the lottery!!!



It reminds me of on of Einstein's thoughts...

The road to insanity is to do the same thing over and over and over again and expect different results.

Seriously, just re-read the thread from an objective point of view and you will see who is talking at who rather than actually communicating.


I agree I have posted stats and shown the math. I have said it is not about gender if the numbers were reversed and it was the men with the higher rate I would be just as disappointed with them.
So yes doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insane. But who is looking for different results? The numbers are what they are I didn't tally the stats they are from verifiable sources.
I post fact and just want a debate on the facts the problem comes when someone says their opinion is right and the facts are wrong. If she has verifiable facts let her post them I will gladly read and learn. The quote that comes to my mind is "I reject reality and substitute my own" author unknown. The numbers are there so who is not really communicating.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 364
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 12:07:49 PM

So you really believe that out of the 700 women per 1000 that file 71.5% have husbands that have broken the vows? That would be 500.5 women out of 700! There is know way that is correct. But assuming you are correct then surely the same number of men filing are justified. That would be 214.5 out of 300. I doubt that too. The disparity in the numbers is there you can choose to ignore it if you choose but the chance of 71.5% of women filing and having just reason is about the same as winning the lottery!!!


Lets look at the numbers that you say are correct. your quote was........


YES, YES,YES! At least that many divorces filed by women have just cause! Maybe more. When a man files for divorce, I am sure you feel that he has just cause, why is it so hard for you to understand that women have actual REASONS for what they do??? Get real!


The numbers are 500.5 women justified so that leaves 199.5 unjustified.
The mens numbers are 214.5 justified leaving 85.5 unjustified.
Ok now add 199.5 and 85.5 you get 285 what is 70% of 285?.....199.5
Hummmmm I can't believe it! Using your numbers the rates are still the same for unjustified divorces.
I used your numbers that you have already said were correct. I have shown the math and if there is a mistake in that math please show me.

Lets put this debate to bed and get back to the point of the thread. As far as communication this diatribe has shown why it is so hard for men and women to get one another. When one side (the man or the woman) Is correct and the other just won't accept it then that is where the problem comes from.


Here is a copy of the vow he made to me:

I _____, take you ______, to be my wedded wife. To have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness or in health, to love and to cherish 'till death do us part.

He failed to love and cherish me. In fact, his behaviour was extremely detrimental to my well-being. To me, that part of the vow is the essence of the agreement, since without it, our marriage would have never existed.

The vows state that the couple should stay together in sickness and in health. Do you believe that, or do you think a person is morally justified in leaving a spouse who has an addiction to drugs, alcohol, or sex? Addiction is widely recognized as an illness....so stay, or go?


Ok now we are getting to a place we can start to agree. However you have to look at both spouses behavior. I agree if he broke the vows you had a right to divorce but did he change all by himself or did your behavior have something to do with it? I am NOT placing all the blame on you! I am just saying we all react to the people around us. The responsibility falls to both in a marriage. I doubt that he just one day changed in to a azzhole. Do you think just maybe he had some issues with you that you brushed off? I feel this took place over years where there was chances for both to reach out and either never did or when one of you did try the other was not receptive. So in this case from what you have said it would be a lack of trying on both parties.

The last question of addiction is easier the sex addict would be a vow breaker for sure. The drugs and alcohol is a little harder as I do not see them as a disease but a choice. However most of them will end up breaking vows because of the addiction. When they do the other has a justified reason for divorce.
See I am not hard to get along with.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 365
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 1:06:02 PM
According to MJ: Obviously gals...men mistreat us either because we drove them to it...or we asked for it?..sheesh...

MJ, who determines who is right? Why do you assume YOUR interpretations are right?Because you are a man, and because you are using stats?

Trying to explain anything to you from a female point of view, and several of us have tried...is the perfect example of why some of us have trouble communicating with some men...this idea that they are always right and they make the rules about what is ok and what isn't...or, that their bad behavior is our fault...or that only extreme things are justification for divorcing...no wonder we give up...

And btw, my ex wasn't a monster...he was a young, flawed human who really had no clue about women or relationships...and was stubborn about seeing anything but his own point of view...Luckily, after the divorce he went into individual counseling, apologized to me for some of the more horrific things he did..and treats his new wife quite differently...he learned and grew..

And yes, quite a few things changed after we got married...including his expectations of me...and certainly he got a lot more controlling and demanding....
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 366
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 1:20:51 PM
What I was suggesting is that just because 70 percent of marriages are ended by women, it does not mean that women are mostly responsible for the breakdown of the marriages, prior to the legal action.


Posted a few pages ago, but bears repeating...

"I think that the single most obvious absurdity in this thread is the idea that it follows that "initiate" presumes fault. The rest of the many and myriad absurdities in the thread built on this absurdity are just so much smoke and mirrors trying to hide a post hoc fallacy."
~ me

The numbers, how ever you skew them, do not correlate to causality. That some insist they do is, really quite revealing.

Period, end of story.

The "how come" regardless of gender is as varied as individual circumstance allows for. Go ahead and push a "genderality" (sp. intentional) agenda, but do realize that this says more about the person tabling the generality than the gender they seek to fix blame on.
 MidshipMom
Joined: 7/19/2009
Msg: 367
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 1:57:08 PM

The simple fact that more women file gives a more than reasonable chance that more of them file for a reason other than BROKEN VOWS.
That is my definition of unjustified filings. In other words if the vows are not broken by the man and she files that is unjustified. If she has broken the vows then then the fault of the filing is squarely on her!


MJYawn, you are not getting it. Vows ARE broken by the husband when he neglects his wife's emotional needs. It seems to me you think the only justifiable reason for divorce (besides abuse etc.) is infidelity. By the time a woman makes the decision to have an affair, she has been neglected/hurt to the point where she just doesn't care anymore.

But what you are not getting is this – most men knock themselves out to please their wives doing 97 out of 100 things. However, it is just 3 that she really needs to feel connected and happy. Your inability to understand the other posts leads me to believe that perhaps your wives did indeed try to get your attention, but the only way of being heard was to hurt you by sleeping with other men. (Sorry to get personal here but some of these posters are making very good points and you are not listening).

But what I do admire about you is your tenacity to keep trying to state your case, and I can only imagine you wanted to keep trying when your wives had thrown in the towel. That must have been painful for you.

Even though you quote us stats, you have said yourself your conclusions are drawn mainly from the very large study (I believe you referenced 6 marriages) of which you have only heard the man's side of the story. This does not make a research study. I suspect if you looked at 6 happily married couples you would hear a different tune.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 368
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 2:00:23 PM
Well fishies, I think I am done with this thread. I will continue to follow it, and may return to post something should something move my spirit. Although the last few pages have seemed to return consistently to either percentages or assigning blame.

Now on the latter, I don't think what I was interested in was blame, but more to understand how women thought. Now while the debate rages on about justifications, reasons and the fairness or who gets the worst end of the stick in divorce court, the understanding part keeps slipping further from the meat of the way it's discussed.

Suffice to say, while women may feel as though it is the proverbial "them" that caused the eventual split in men's eyes. One can only think, without prejudice, that when one side initiates 70% of the actions, that group has more impact, than the other. In other words creates more divorces than the other, there just is no other way to say that, nor any other interpretation possible.

Probably the best read in the last 10 pages for me, was post #587. When framed in that light, discounting abuse of any kind, cheating and those who married for the wrong reasons altogether, it makes the most sense. Since it finally shows that insight, that well, when coupled with those other factors I mentioned, would represent "what women think".

I guess the only question I would have left, based on the filing numbers, the reasons and the "way women think", is why they still cling to something that fails so often, or try to marry?

Several times over the last several pages, that infamous quote continues to reappear. "Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result, is insanity"!

When men wish to marry, it is in my mind, to bring stability, heritage and a certain formality to the joining of man and woman. In their mind, an accepted norm. So when women feel the need to end it 70% of the time, not in 1 year or 5 or even 25. But almost in every year since the 60's, some 50 years of women consistently filing 70% of the actions, why would they teach their daughters, to grow up and marry?

That to me, is true insanity! With a divorce rate hovering around 50% consistently over those 50 years, women filing 70% of those actions. It stands to reason, that in an extended family with 100 female members, over 3 or 4 generations, at least half of them would have experienced divorce at least once. Moreover, in that same period of time, they initiated it 70% of those times.

It would seem to me, to be the bane of their existance. Bridal magazines, reception halls and wedding dress shops should be at an all time low, not on the rise! Women should by their experience, supposed perception, and intellect, be wishing to remain single, cohabitate or remain in an exclusive monagamous dating relationship for life! Rather than chance the mistakes so prevelant in their own familial or social circles, that they see on a daily, monthly and yearly basis.
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 369
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 2:18:22 PM
why would they teach their daughters, to grow up and marry?
Simple. Many women desire children. It is still frowned upon (in most social strata) to be a single mother (regardless of Murphy Brown). Many women have chosen to NOT marry and have, in some cases, resigned themselves to not having children. However, it IS more acceptable for women to be single. I doubt that many people can recall how devastating it was for a woman to be unmarried or divorced in the early part of the century, or even excommunicated from her church.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/us/16census.html

Please don't start on the child thing. I used words like "many," "some," and "most" for a reason.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 370
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 2:43:23 PM

Simple. Many women desire children. It is still frowned upon (in most social strata) to be a single mother (regardless of Murphy Brown). Many women have chosen to NOT marry and have, in some cases, resigned themselves to not having children. However, it IS more acceptable for women to be single. I doubt that many people can recall how devastating it was for a woman to be unmarried or divorced in the early part of the century, or even excommunicated from her church.


I agree with this and it is a good thing. Why because sometimes stuff happens.

Another interesting point someone brought up was "women want a wedding more than they want to be married".
Disclaimer I did not say this nor am I passing judgment on it.
Now lets turn that around does the man want to be married and the wedding is not as much a concern?


Your mistakes are 1) you are applying your own definition of justified.

BTW, you are far from the only man that thinks this way. I'd love to have a nickel for every time I've heard a man (including my own ex) utter something along the lines of : I never cheated, and never laid a hand on her! What could possibly have gone wrong?!

2) I never said that I actually believed that only seventy percent of divorces initiated by women were justified. You can read back and note that I said way more than 70% were justified. I think the woman who throws over a perfectly good husband for no reason other than she is bored, dissatisfied, or thinks she can do better is exceedingly RARE...way fewer than 30%.


Ok but even so the numbers still show the 70/30 split. So by your definition and the numbers you want to see the man would be wrong nearly 100% of the time. Do you really believe that?


If he had an issue with me, it was that he would have liked to have changed me into somebody I am not...a person who would settle for less than he was willing to give in terms of his agreement to love and cherish me. A person who was okay with being married, but acting like a boss and employe


So you are saying you never did anything to make him feel unloved or not cherished?


Are you saying that sex addiction IS a disease, but drug and/or alcohol addiction is a choice? That doesn't seem very logical, or consistent.


I worded that wrong I realized that after I posted. Not I don't think of any of them as a disease. All of them you have a choice in partaking in.


What part of the vow? Failing to love and cherish his/her partner?


I would guess abuse and or cheating because of the addiction. But that is no excuse!!!


Sure, IF both parties tried to reach out before the other person had decided to leave.


So he NEVER tried?
 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 371
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 2:47:58 PM

Here is where men and women differ in communicating. The man asks what is wrong the woman gives a signal or lines to read between or the dreaded IDK or NOTHING.
She in her mind told him all he needs to know, the man is going HUH?


OR from my post 313:


After I left he finally decided we needed counseling. One of the assignments was to write about what bothered us in our marriage. He showed up empty handed, which surprised me since he and his friends had no problem telling me what a horrible wife I was. He was offered the chance to say something – anything. Then councilor read what I’d written and asked him point blank, “Did you know she felt this way?” He said, “No.” Then the councilor asked him, “Are you telling me she never said any of these things to you?” His response was, “I didn’t think it was important.” Communication is only as good as the people involved are willing to be or capable of being.


What I keep seeing over and over and over in this thread are people hurting so much that they aren’t listening to each other.

Yeah post #587 is definitely one of the best. I used the link and guess what – the article was written by a guy. As for why marriage? I think that, generally speaking, men and women long for “happily ever after” with someone that understands and supports them.
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 372
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 3:05:37 PM

If you want to sacrifice the admiration of many men for the criticism of one, go ahead, get married. Katherine Hepburn
 xlr8ingmargo
Joined: 7/28/2009
Msg: 373
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 3:11:01 PM
^^^ Ditto the dancing pickle. I believe it's an issue of knowing when to say enough already, this is going no where.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 374
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 3:16:11 PM

Except that you don't want to know what we think if what we think is that a lot of women who file for divorce are driven to it by their husbands' actions.


What about the women driving their husbands to divorce? 30% of first filers are men.


Or one could completely disagree with your interpretation. Clearly, the fact that women are leaving their husbands in droves, indicates that men are doing something wrong. If you were selling a product, and 70% of the customers complained and demanded their money back, you would conclude what? That a large percentage of the customers were unreasonable and incapable of using the product, OR, that the product was defective?


With this statement you are completely absolving the woman of any problems with the marriage. Is that the way you truly think. Because it takes two to make it work and most times two to break it!!!
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 375
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/25/2010 4:28:44 PM

No, not at all, and I never said that. Of the men who file for divorce, I am sure the majority of them have valid reasons, just as most of the women do. Since most men feel that they will lose out in the event of divorce, I would tend to believe the men who decide to end their marriages have very compelling reasons.


But the fact remains to get to the number you have said were reasonable above 71.5% which only splits the womans number to 50/50 you would have to have a number in the 90 percentile range to have the womans numbers justified.

Now to back the numbers with real life.......I spoke of 6 divorces that I had personal knowledge of. Out of the 6 there were 4 cheaters 3 women 1 man then the other two were woman that said themselves that they were tired of being married. That their husbands did nothing wrong. so we have 6 total 5 of which were caused by the women 1 that the man was in the wrong. lets do the math. 82% of 6 is 4.92 which would represent the women the other 18% would represent the man. So in my real life experiences the numbers quoted by the OP are correct to the point of being scary!!!
Do you see why I think the way I do?


Well, he wanted to try. He wanted to start trying right after I told him, I was done, and intended to file for divorce. I, however, do not arrive at such huge decisions lightly, and I don't make threats, either. So, when I said I was getting a divorce, I meant it, and it was no time for him to decide it was time to begin to make an effort. Believe me, my life would have been a thousand times easier if I could have made myself stay, but I couldn't love him anymore because of the way he treated me.


So the many years you were married he never tried at all?.........If this is true why stay so long? Again it takes two!!!


Nah. I was merely arguing that it is disingenuous to suggest that because more women file for divorce, that more women are at fault for the breakdown of the marriage. So we are back to THAT point again. The point that some people don't want to hear.

The fact is with the disparity in the number of filings between men and women it would be nearly impossible not to have more women at fault. See the first answer in this post. Women would have to have just reasons over 90% of the time not likely!!!
I am a reasonable man if you have any stats to prove otherwise please post. I have no problem with you believing what ever you like however the numbers don't show it.
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