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Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 401
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time? Page 17 of 54    (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54)

And allow me to add, get divorced in any state but NJ,

mjyawn, then why is it important to have a divorce decree?

Cause no one on POF will date you without one, seperated over 2 yrs...............


I agreed that the party could leave of there own freewill. Maybe I should of been a little clearer on what I was agreeing to.
However if the one that wants to date is the one that left that would give them the incentive to come to a agreement with the one they left behind. Speeding up the process!!!

Thank you sweetness-one It does seem to level the playing field. And has gotten some female support.
I was really shocked when I read it and saw it was widely used in Europe. I am not much on Socialism that is rampant over there and infecting our great land as we speak.
However this idea has merit!!!
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 402
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 2:26:54 PM

One other thing look back over the thread count the women that have made the "women are good men are evil" comments...


A lot of these women are the same ones that are looking for a LTR and have in their profile: "Looking for Mr. Perfect/Mr. Perfect for me", "looking for someone to spend the rest of my life with", "Looking for my knight in shining armor", etc. If men are so evil, why are you looking?
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 403
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 4:46:52 PM

You asked why we left...we tell you...then you tell us that isn't a good enough reason..or it is the wrong reason...as usual, it appears one (general) doesn't want to know the reason...particularly if it means saying men could do some things that would help us get along better. Many seem to want to tell us what we SHOULD feel , think or do...


Exactly! Well said, Zangie.


I don't remembering telling anyone how they should feel.
But you did take the same vows as your husband.
now you can say that they ment different things to you and him but the vows are the same.


I'm not familiar with the divorce laws in certain states. Where I live, the separation agreement is the all important thing. My financial agreement and custody issues were all hammered out at the time of the legal separation.

Hey, you know what? I just realized something funny...LOL..I did NOT file for divorce! I left my husband, and we worked out the separation agreement ourselves. Then we each took it to our lawyers to have them look it over. After 5 years of separation my EX filed for divorce ( he plans to get married soon) and I just had to sign a couple of papers and that was it. As it happens I am NOT part of the 70% of women who filed for divorce. Huh. I totally forgot that part.


The custody and child support may have to be worked out but the marital assets would have to be split 5-7 years latter.

I am glad you were able to work it out between yourselves My last ex and I did too seeing as GA allows adultery as a ground she was quite will to drop her request for half of the assets!!!!!! Funny she did it but didn't want everyone to know!!!!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 404
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 5:03:51 PM
jinx

You are a better woman than I, cuz, try as I might, I often find it hard to refrain from telling a few of the posters here exactly what I think of them. These forums portray a world vastly different from the reality in which I live, and it sad to think the notions expressed here are indicative of what men or women really think of one another. For the life of me, though, I don't get it, as this is a DATING site.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that statistics are nothing more than numbers, numbers to skew any which way in order to make a point. Mere numbers say not one thing about motivation, and transparent is the argument based upon this pretense.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 405
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 6:54:26 PM
Thank you for thinking that I am in charge here, but.... I would love it if such a discussion would actually ensue. Unfortunately, intelligent discussion is not what I have seen evidence of here. Supposition & generalities applied to genders is replete, with not much recognition of reality. I am as entitled to comment and voice my opinion as anyone else.

In short, more women are motivated to file for divorce once a marriage has ended because less men are. Simple?
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 406
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 9:59:11 PM
These are quotes by women that have studied the no fault divorce it is interesting what they found.
Also notice that one of the women was going to write a book praising no-fault divorce but when she done her research she changed it to a book against no fault!!!

I threw in a couple of jokes too!!!


"I have to start with a confession: This isn't the book I set out to
write. ... For example, I started this project believing that people who suffer over an
extended period in unhappy marriages ought to get out. . . . I thought
that striking down taboos about divorce was another part of the ongoing
enlightenment of the women's, civil- rights, and human potential
movements of the last twenty-five years. . . . To my utter befuddlement,
the extensive research I conducted for this book brought me to one
inescapable and irrefutable conclusion: I had been wrong."
Dr. Diane Medved in her book, The Case Against Divorce.,



Instead of getting married again, I'm just going to find a woman I don't like and give her a house.
-Lewis Grizzard



Ah, yes, divorce, from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet.
-Robin Williams



"Perhaps the main cause of failure still lies in our attitude to love
itself -- that it is good only so long as it pleases, and that as soon as
it drops one degree below the level of self-satisfaction it is somehow
improper to attempt to preserve it. This is but a natural expression of
that contemporary fallacy -- the divine right to personal happiness, the
rule of self-love, to be enjoyed without effort, at no matter what cost
to others. Whoever gave us this right to be merely happy and what makes
us think it so enlightened an idea? In claiming the sanction to withdraw
from any relationship the moment our happiness appears less than
perfect, we are acting out a delusion which denies all but the most
trivial kind of love. Worse still, it makes a paper house of marriage,
flimsily built for instant collapse, haunted by rootless children whose
sense of incipient desertion already dooms them to an emotional
wasteland. Indeed the interpretation of rights that allows the
jettisoning of children in furtherance of their parents' right to
happiness, not only cancels that happiness but makes more than
reasonably certain that the next generation will be denied it too."
--Laurie Lee




"The unparalleled disaster caused by uniform and compulsory no-fault divorce
is reaching the consciousness of the broader population. There was always
the risk that the sheer numbers of people forced into divorce, crushed by
laws that stripped them of very basic Constitutional rights and property,
would be so bad, that the resposne is simple: Rescind the bad law." ...
"On every philosophical, moral and intellectual grounds, divorce statutes
should underscore that marriage IS a contract, yet one that can be broken.
But as in all contracts, breaking it comes with a penalty."
--Phyllis H. Witcher, testifying before a Pennsylvania legislative committee



"On the practical level, fathers realize that divorce means they lose their kids."
--"The faults of ending no-fault divorce" By Cathy Young
 ChancesRMD
Joined: 4/11/2009
Msg: 407
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 10:10:53 PM
My ex wanted the divorce so she could get married. It was before the 12 month separation requirement, but I signed none the less.

Does it really matter ?
 x_file_
Joined: 9/30/2009
Msg: 408
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/26/2010 11:19:00 PM

Indeed, I feel stupider just having had to explain this to him validating the whole "ignore" argument -> Q.E.D.


Yet you keep on doing it.



Until now, I have always had a tremendous amount of respect for you and have often found myself agreeing with you, especially in the S & P forum.


For me truth always overrides respect. If you lost respect for me because I showed you are wrong, then I don't care for your respect anyway.



One can neither debate or reason with an emotional conviction.


Clearly.

You are emotionally convinced you are right, and I'm logically certain you are wrong.



I thought that it would be fun to debate with you, since I have you found to be intelligent and well-informed.


I don't buy the flattery for a second.



I found a flaw in your reasoning when you said this:


So yes, men, as whole, in comparison to women as a whole are more valuable and certainly more important to the day to day operation in a society.


and I was using your earlier formula to point it out. Sorry you missed it. I am sure it is a failure on my part to properly communicate it.


1) I didn't miss it. I addressed it in my last post.

2) You didn't discover a flaw - you imagined/fabricated one. You took this claim:


So yes, men, as whole, in comparison to women as a whole are more valuable and certainly more important to the day to day operation in a society.


ABC'd it so it became:


So yes, men, as whole A, in comparison to women as a whole B are more valuable and certainly more important to the day to day operation in a society C.


and then thought you can connect A, B and C to this argument: [A & B] implies C, C, Therefore_____

The connection you made is wrong. The relation between A, B, and C is not an implication. And EVEN if it is, then you will have to show why it isn't this implication: C implies [A & B] rather than this one: [A & B] implies C.

There is no simple way to put it but say.....you are wrong. And not only because you got the relation between A, B and C wrong, but also because you connected a claim to an argument which does not represent the argument but only the first premise of the argument.



If you cannot see that logic must add up, whether you are proving a claim or disproving a claim then there is REALLY no point in going back and forth.


I think you mean "numbers" not logic.



I am no longer going to respond to your posts, not because I am conceding or admitting that I am wrong, but because I think we have derailed this topic enough as it is.


You are wrong whether you concede or not, admit it or not. Or perhaps that's news to you?



If you want to continue this in PM, feel free to email me and we can have it out there.


Feel free not to email me.



LOL....you didn't think that was an actual example of logic did you? That was just me making fun or your delusions....


If I made the argument you did, and you corrected me like I did correct you, then you can say that I’m delusional. But that was not the case.

You made the argument. The conclusion of the argument was wrong. Therefore the argument does not show my delusions, yet you think it does, so that makes YOU delusional.

So, if anything, you were making fun of your own delusions.



You said you would provide examples of lack of logic in "other statements of yours" (mine) .


I just did. See above.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 409
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 12:25:25 AM
In a post on this thread a woman was telling why her marriage failed. I didn't notice this at first but after some research finding some quotes of women that had done extensive study into the no fault divorce. Almost every one of them mentioned the reason for no fault filing was a attitude of it is all about me.
That got me thinking about the post she made.
So I went back and counted the times she referred to herself, her ex and them as a couple.
I was really blown away by what I found.
Number of times she referred to herself.......44
Number of times she referred to him.............8
Number of times she referred to them..........14

Are you seeing the same thing? Do you think the no fault may be being used by the self absorbed more than anyone?
I mean come on!!!!!!!!GET REAL!!!!!!!!!
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 410
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 5:37:52 AM
Here's a little story:

Man meets woman. Woman finds it hard to trust and often "runs" away from the him and the budding relationship - she gets a bit jealous or upset. He doesn't let her. He sits her down and "forces" her to open up and communicate rather than react.

These two are still together with a child. They still have problems, but they are able to discuss them openly.

How many of you have ever tried what he did? I venture to say that most of you just ran as well. Most of you lack the courage to do what he did. It takes empathy to do that. I readily acknowledge that I sometimes suck at communication. But since most of us think that there is another candidate right around the corner, rarely do we fight as this man did for a relationship. What he did is called effort.

He WANTED to understand her, he understood at a base level that he had to break through that wall in order to get her to open up and "talk" to him and that it would only benefit their relationship. Most people haven't the strength to do that or the men are too busy waching the game. Frankly, if I ever date someone who wants to watch TV rather than talk to me - the relationship will be over right then and there or maybe I'll throw something into the TV to make my point. And men should do the same if women resist, but I have yet to experience a man saying to me "I need to talk to you about something". I know they exist though as I have seen my brothers do this exact thing.

There are men out there who do put forth an effort. But when I see the posts from men on here saying "why didn't you tell him"; I shake my head because there is more to it than that and you know it. We all know when things are going wrong in a relationship - why don't you have the courage to say "what's wrong, do we need to talk?" If someone doesn't feel confident enough to tell you what's wrong, that's a red flag because it goes back to the fact that you are not opening yourself up to receive the other end - you are watching the game instead or you think she is "talking at you". With that attitude can you blame someone for NOT wanting to talk to you?


<div class='quote'>Why is it necessary to leave the marriage to find yourself?

Simply put, it's the lifestyle today. Look carefully at how you are raising your kids. Do you tell them that they can do anything, be anything, have anything? Well, right there you are creating a person that will not be satisfied with married life. Married life is not exciting. It is about family and putting roots down and doing things together. People assume that their lives will be the same after they marry and have children. They are living in a dream world.

People are selfish (read some threads on here about how some people think it is okay to ask an attached person out for coffee); people think they are entitled to happiness and all sorts of crap without sacrifice or work; people think they can do what the want (see how many people put their feet up in public places - theatres, buses etc.). I could go on about the behaviour I see every day out and about. It all relates to everything.

Think about all this and the state of marriage while you raise your children to "have it all"......
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 411
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 5:57:58 AM
^^^Well, it appears that since women can take care of themselves now - that men can finally have their freedom and enjoy life without some broad nagging them to settle down and give it all up. You'd think it would be a happy time. How odd.

I for one, would be extremely curious what it would be like if men DID step back and STOP.

Maybe that would force women to change? Just an idea from someone who has been single for a long time because I don't want to just "be in a relationship".

I agree. Maybe someday they'll band together in support of each other and we'll actually see some progress. I won't hold my breath on that, tho.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 412
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 5:59:25 AM
funtalk only - I've been inviting men on these forums to change their ways towards women for some time, but they WON'T. Because they are weak and women and sex are man's weakness.

I'm not trying to put blame or argue with your post, but men seem to whine and whine and whine about women. I for one, would be extremely curious what it would be like if men DID step back and STOP.

Maybe that would force women to change? Just an idea from someone who has been single for a long time because I don't want to just "be in a relationship".
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 413
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 6:41:52 AM
DragNFly & Mr Evil: Thank you..sorry..you are right..it is close to my heart and I did feel before I thought ..keep trying to work on that...I fail miserably..lol...I'd hate for anyone to think that I wasn't sad and in pain over the whole thing...or, that I didn't feel like I failed both my ex and myself...


So I went back and counted the times she referred to herself, her ex and them as a couple.
I was really blown away by what I found.
Number of times she referred to herself.......44
Number of times she referred to him.............8
Number of times she referred to them..........14

Are you seeing the same thing? Do you think the no fault may be being used by the self absorbed more than anyone?
I mean come on!!!!!!!!GET REAL!!!!!!!!!


Boy MJ..you sure are hard headed..lol..

The question was why do WOMEN..it would be real hard to talk about why I did anything without talking about myself now , wouldn't it? The only references to my ex would be about what his part was..not his thoughts/feelings..because frankly, I didn't know them all...what else were any of us supposed to say about the ex? It was about why WE (women) wanted a divorce...And self absorbed , like any trait is not gender specific..I could claim my ex was self absorbed..since all he cared about at the time was how things affected him?

You totally don't get the divorce process..at least in OHIO ( where I live), and I don't think it's that different anywhere else in the US...Dissolutions ( or no-faults) are used to both save costs, time and cut down on petty arguing in court...the original divorce complaint for a "regular " divorce does not assign specific blame...it uses irreconcilable differences..fault does not come into play unless it goes to trial...the domestic attorney's here do everything in their power to get couples to agree to terms, and settlement way before a trial is needed...only roughly 10% of all regular divorce cases go to trial..most settle..and no fault is assigned...

Personally, especially given that most judges are still men..and going by this thread..don't think I would want a judge to determine whether my reasons are"valid" anyway...and the trials are almost always about money or child issues of some kind of another..not fault..it would be foolish to force anyone, of any gender to stay married when they don't want to..whatever their reasons are...seems a bit of repression of freedom doesn't it? Without doing any specific study..I'd bet the original divorce laws were written by men, to favor men...and keep women in marriages they didn't want to be in, I'm not in favor of going back to men totally rule the world, myself...and incidentally, many men choose no fault...primarily because of the money savings, which is substantial...I don't see the wisdom of forcing people of any gender to stay married to someone they don't want to be married too..you can't police those kinds of things...it's a personal decision, IMO...

The "rules" you gave earlier about how to conduct a no fault...do seem fine..assuming that any couple that agrees and just wants it over can proceed anyway...I'm assuming holding up the paperwork for years would encourage the party who wants out to agree and get it over with ....

By the way..I didn't file first either..actually, I didn't even have an attorney..my ex suggested the no fault...(primarily because of cost..I agreed..the cost was a factor,...but, the not dragging it out forever, and getting into petty fights about everything was also a motivation)..we hammered out an agreement we could both live with, split the personal stuff...his attorney did the paperwork( an attorney can only represent one party)..filed it, and we were divorced a month later...

I answered the question because I was the one who wanted the divorce...which I would say means I "initiated" it...and I, maybe erroneously, thought that some men might actually want to know the reasons...and we could talk about it from both sides...can't say I'm totally surprised than some men would rather just tell me how "wrong" I am/was...sigh..it's something I'm familiar with....
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 414
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 9:02:59 AM
We have Women’s Day, Children’s Day, Heritage Day, Youth Day, Worker’s Day -even Tree Day - but no Manhood Day. Men are seen to have it all, the power, the privilege and the possession. But though they have it all, they are seen to be misusing it all too. Men are seen to be the problem. We have activism against men’s abuse of women and children. We have no day to remember and appreciate the good men in our society but we have activism to confront men with their own dysfunction.

What has gone wrong?
Men who traditionally have had the role of protector and provider in the family and community have too often become the abuser, the one to be protected against. For too long men have taken their position and their power for granted and sadly not used it to make society safe. They have not taken enough responsibility and have let things deteriorate in society at large and in their homes in particular. It is reported that every 6 hours a woman is killed by her intimate partner in South Africa. And the Family and Marriage Association of South Africa, which works in the area of Domestic Violence, reports that 92% of domestic abuse is perpetrated by men. A reason for this is that many men feel they own their wife and children. They are not accountable to anyone as to how they treat them and so their anger and physical abuse is justified. If they come home frustrated from work or any other situation they take it out on their wife and children. The aids and sexual abuse pandemic is also a very loud signal that men are losing their centre, their very soul. It is small comfort to realise that many of these men grew up in abusive households themselves and are simply living out the example they were shown and the experiences they had.

It is also little mitigation to say that alcohol is an exacerbating factor. When it is part of the mix, alcohol makes the violence all the more dangerous as judgment is affected and responsibility is relinquished. Men threaten and fight, they give themselves false courage and do much damage while under the influence of alcohol.

Even when sober, many men don’t seem to be aware of what they are doing. They are in the habit of demanding what they want and of getting angry with anyone who does not comply with them. (It is troubling that this pattern is established in child rearing. Giving a child all he wants is seen as good parenting. Is it? When does it change? Do girls do the dishes and are boys let off because it is ‘woman’s work’? )

The truth is many men have lost their heart and soul. They have lost their inner strength.

As a result their outer strength becomes conflicted, aggressive and vindictive. Outer power and inner power need to be in balance for each to be healthy and life-giving. Each keeps the other appropriate and in check. Men who are connected to themselves have a developed inner awareness that enables them to have self control, to do right and to take responsibility for their actions. When a man’s strength is reliant only on outer power, whether with money or control, whether fists or anger, maybe a knife or a gun – he has lost his inner power; he has lost his identity in God and is looking to others to convince himself that he is something tough and respectable.

There are many factors that have caused men to lose their centre:

Men are generally not well developed emotionally as boys. In order to toughen them up they are often bullied and shamed. The result is that they can’t cope well when things don’t go their way. When they feel frustrated, angry or fearful they lash out, rather than see what their feelings are saying. They react out of anger or pain before they have time to think through what is more helpful in the situation. They strike out irrespective of the pain they cause. They lose their compassion for others and demand respect even if they don’t deserve it. Many a woman has been beaten up by her husband or lover because she has not said something the ‘right’ way.

Men don’t have enough fathers and role models around. Statistically it seems only 1 or 2 boys in 10 has a good functioning father figure through childhood. The result is that there are no guiding figures for these boys as they grow into manhood. They try to get this from peers and gang members and leaders – which develops further destructive behavioral habits. So there is also anger in men because they feel let down by their fathers and other older men. They feel lost and confused but can’t admit it.

Men are not helped to deal with their pain, their loss and their grief. They have not been shown how to do their emotional work. We all carry pain from broken relationships, from difficult work situations and from money pressures etc. but if men do not deal with the pain, it makes them angry and aggressive. Anger needs to be used as the engine for change or else it enacts a cycle of destruction.

What can we do about this broken manhood we see?

My sense is that we need to take the healing of the masculine soul seriously. Men need new images of responsible manhood. We need to do more work in this area throughout our society.

Surely men know how to be men? Unfortunately this is not the case - most men are born male but don’t know how to live as a man. A healthy manhood is about men knowing who they are and what they have to do. It is not about blaming and passing the buck, but about sacrificing their hurt pride and begining to make a difference in healing their families and community. This begins with the inner healing of their notions of what it means to be a man. It means releasing and forgiving those who have hurt them and so ending the cycle of violence. It means renewing their relationships with themselves, with God and with others - relationships of honesty and accountability

We need to make men aware of the choices they are making, their words, actions, the places they go to and the friends they allow to influence them. In all these things they need to choose life rather than death.

We need older men who are at peace with themselves to mentor and guide the younger men, who can model responsible manhood.

Men’s support groups are needed so men can have an effective support network. Men who want to change need an healthy environment where the wrong friends cannot get them back into the same life-style and problems as before. They need new and healthier friends, ones who will help them make better choices.

As a society we need to stop criticizing and blaming men in a general way because the good men lose heart when they are blamed along with the bad ones. I don’t believe men are all bad and women are all good. We need to begin to work together to change the patterns of destructive relationships, to build strong family and personal relationships so that young men can have something to build on.

When men re-find their soul and inner power, our society will regain its well-being.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 415
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 10:23:44 AM
OK this has turned to he said she said. Lets look at a few things. The first thing I want to look at is emmmajays theory that since women are leaving men in droves there must be something wrong with men.


"50% of all marriages in the America end in divorce." - Not True

Well, that is not completely true. The actual figure is around 43%. That is 43% of all marriages ends up in divorce.

Divorce rates in various countries
Country Name % of Marriages Ended in Divorce
USA 43%
Canada 48%
Australia 40%
Japan 27%
Singapore 10%
India 1%


In her theory because 70-80% of women are filing first the product (men) are defective.
I tidy way of disposing of the problem if it is true.
The above total divorce rates for the US and other country's is form a Google search there are others but all say about the same thing.
Seeing as the US rate is 43% that means there are 57% of marriages that WORK.

That is the majority of them. So lets test this theory. **THE NUMBERS I AM GOING TO USE ARE FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY**

I am going to use a smaller number for total marriages. Because the numbers fluctuate every year and are very large. I will use percentages of this smaller number to keep it accurate.

If 10,000 represents the total number of marriages then 43% the number that end in divorce is 4300 and the 57% of ones that last a lifetime are 5700.
The 5700 work so right now lets concentrate on the 4300 that don't work.

Now 70% of 4300 is 3010 that is the number emmmjay says are caused by men being defective. leaving the 30% of filings men do so the women in these must be the defective ones. that number would be 1290.

So now we have 10,000 products 4300 are defective. 3010 caused by the man 1290 by the woman.
So 30.1% of men in emmmnjays theory are bad and 12.9% of women.

She is saying that 2150 women are finding a problem so there is 7850 that find no problem.

That means that 21.5% of women are saying a product is defective but 78.5% are able to use the product just fine.
Do you think it might be the way they are using the product?
Hummmmmm

Lets take cars for example we all know people that have drivers licenses but are bad drivers. Yet the majority of people with licenses do a good job.
Is it the cars fault that the person that is a bad driver can't operate it correctly?
Also in the example of cars if you own a car that has a recall you take it in and have it fixed you DON'T just throw it away!!!

So when only 21.5% of women are finding fault 70% of the time where does the problem really lay?
I would say that it is much more reasonable to conclude that the 21.5% just are not using the product correctly!!!!!!!
Especially when 78.5% are able to use it!!!!!!

The overwhelming conclusions of the experts that have studied no- fault say the people filing (men & women) are doing so because they say it is all about me.
Expert after expert have agreed that the laws need drastic changes to correct this problem.
Bottom line marriage works 57% of the time. It just depends on how much effort a person puts in to it as what they get out of it!!!

BTW to the people that say numbers mean nothing then why keep stats at all?
I will tell you, looking at the numbers tell what has happened.
And as it has been said many times if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it!!!
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 416
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 10:53:55 AM

BTW to the people that say numbers mean nothing then why keep stats at all?

The numbers only "mean something" if reason is applied to the argument, when the numbers are used as a means to validate an opinion based on confirmation bias and a circular argument, it isn't the numbers at fault, it's the faulty reasoning that is meaningless. Stats on divorce are not even compiled by all states, regardless, while they can be useful for tracking trends, they aren't implicit or explicit to any blanket generalized causation.

I will tell you, looking at the numbers tell what has happened.

Let's go back to the logic and critical thinking angle again, even ignoring the fallacies used to buttress opinion, the fact is, there are many reasons men and women decide to get out of a relationship, to assume that a 16% gender differential (current stat) correlates to causation based on anecdotal evidence; the argument for either gender being to blame is still equal (and meaningless).


Bottom line marriage works 57% of the time.

It depends on how you define "works". Just because a couple stays married doesn't mean that either spouse or even both, are happy.


The overwhelming conclusions of the experts...

Are still based on mere speculation, in regards to marriage/divorce, there are only 2 experts, and sometimes they agree on the reason for marriage/divorce, ...sometimes they don't.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 417
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 11:16:21 AM
dawn1114 You are correct here are the stats on that.

Divorce Rate in USA - 43%

* Divorce rate for first marriage: 41%
* Divorce rate for second marriage: 60%
* Divorce rate for third marriage: 73%

Notice that the divorce rate for first time divorces is 41% it climbs higher each time drastically.
However it is such a small number that it only effects the total rate by 2%
41% for first timers compared to 43% total.

That again backs up that it is a small percentage of the people that marry over and over and do not realize that they may be the problem!!!!

Why does the rate climb so much each time they remarry? It would be prudent to conclude that these people are remarrying each other. Seeing as they both failed at the first the chance they will fail again is far greater.
Why just a guess but it could be they didn't apply the lesson that they should have learned from the first time!!!
 Devilsfan58
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 418
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 12:37:31 PM

Why do women file for divorce 70 % of the time...I don't know but do any states have a way for BOTH parties to file for the divorce?Or can only one person file?


Anyone can file but for both to file would be a pointless issue. There is no need and any decent attorney will tell you this.

In some cases the person not filing may have a reason to let the other person file first. I have seen this in a bunch of incidents for a variety of reasons.
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 419
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 1:12:48 PM
Marriage Preparation/Education, Parenting, Conflict Resolution courses and learning the effects of Divorce that are mandatory prior to receiving a Marriage License would be a move in the right direction for reducing the high divorce rates. Everything else in our society requires education prior to obtaining licences for jobs, driving a car, etc.

Parents are not always the best teachers or examples for a lasting marriage or raising children. Divorcing would be held to a higher degree of accountability before the courts.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 420
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 1:23:33 PM

The numbers only "mean something" if reason is applied to the argument, when the numbers are used as a means to validate an opinion based on confirmation bias and a circular argument, it isn't the numbers at fault, it's the faulty reasoning that is meaningless. Stats on divorce are not even compiled by all states, regardless, while they can be useful for tracking trends, they aren't implicit or explicit to any blanket generalized causation.


Ok lets look at this theory in another light.

Africa has the highest percentage of people in the world that contract aids.
It is a combination of lack of education and resources that cause this disparity in the infection rate.

The people there just either don't have the knowledge and products they need to be safe.
Thankfully the world has realized this problem and we are addressing it.

Having said that it is their BEHAVIOR that causes the problem. They see nothing wrong with what they are doing however it is still what they are doing that has caused the epidemic!!!

In the US we have aids as a problem also however the knowledge education and resources. Are much better here.
But if the masses here ignored the experts advice you would see the same level of infection that is in Africa.
So the difference is that people ACCEPT the warnings of the experts and are much less likely to contract the disease.
But the fact remains that if you live in Africa you have a greater chance of coming in contact with the disease and contracting it just because of the number of cases involved!!!


Let's go back to the logic and critical thinking angle again, even ignoring the fallacies used to buttress opinion, the fact is, there are many reasons men and women decide to get out of a relationship, to assume that a 16% gender differential (current stat) correlates to causation based on anecdotal evidence; the argument for either gender being to blame is still equal (and meaningless).


You would be correct if the split in the numbers were 50/50 however we are dealing wit a 70/30 split at best.

So if the 16% you were talking about was 10,000 people then you would have 7000 women filing and 3000 men.
But what you seem to miss is the percentage of who is filing.

I showed in another post that 21.5% are filing 70% of the cases. It is reasonable to conclude that since such a small number of people are filing such a large number of times that there is a problem most of the time lies within them!!! After all 78.5% are making it work for them one way or another.


It depends on how you define "works". Just because a couple stays married doesn't mean that either spouse or even both, are happy.


Thank you for making my point.
The experts agree that it is the people that are more concerned with what they conceive as happiness for themselves that are filing. Ignoring all others involved or the vows THEY took willing at the time.

I have been around many couples when one or the other passed away not once did I hear about all the bad times in their life together by the remaining spouse.
I am sure that there were many bad times but they focused on the good and made a life.


Are still based on mere speculation, in regards to marriage/divorce, there are only 2 experts, and sometimes they agree on the reason for marriage/divorce, ...sometimes they don't.


If you started to have headaches to the point you knew something was wrong and needed help you would go to a doctor.
You get examined the doctor checks you and says your eyes are causing the trouble.
However you are not having any problem seeing and decide that it can't be the cause. You are sure it is something inside your head.

you continue to have headaches and seek further help so another doctor is consulted they run test and find it is the eyes.
Still not convinced you go to another and another. out of the four Dr.'s one says it is something other than your eyes and you start the treatment they prescribe.
But the headaches continue.
Finally just to prove that it is not your eyes you go see a optometrist he checks and find the trouble and fixes it. The headaches are gone and the problem is solved.

Experts are there to give their educated opinion on there field. When the vast majority agree even when you don't, it would be reasonable and prudent to listen.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 421
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 2:05:24 PM
Ok lets look at this theory in another light.

Yet another logical fallacy, this one is called, "false analogy" ...and not even worth addressing as it just brings "meangless" to yet another level, you might as well have said: It's womens fault because ice-cream has no bones.


You would be correct if the split in the numbers were 50/50 however we are dealing wit a 70/30 split at best.

Either you really don't "get it" or you're just prevaricating. Your response points to it being the former in this case.

It is reasonable to conclude that ...

It's because "ice-cream has no bones", ...same basis in reasoning (fallacious).

Thank you for making my point.

Prevarication or not, ...you missed the very point you made (pointless, in regards to the topic).

I have been around...

There's that "purely anecdotal" again.


If you started to have headaches to the point you knew something was wrong and needed help you would go to a doctor.


See "false analogy" again, while you're at it, get a good gander at the concept of "bias confirmation". You are inviting ridicule only because you are expressing the ridiculous.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 422
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 2:20:02 PM

Ok lets look at this theory in another light.

Yet another logical fallacy, this one is called, "false analogy" ...and not even worth addressing as it just brings "meangless" to yet another level, you might as well have said: It's womens fault because ice-cream has no bones.


You would be correct if the split in the numbers were 50/50 however we are dealing wit a 70/30 split at best.

Either you really don't "get it" or you're just prevaricating. Your response points to it being the former in this case.

It is reasonable to conclude that ...

It's because "ice-cream has no bones", ...same basis in reasoning (fallacious).

Thank you for making my point.

Prevarication or not, ...you missed the very point you made (pointless, in regards to the topic).

I have been around...

There's that "purely anecdotal" again.


If you started to have headaches to the point you knew something was wrong and needed help you would go to a doctor.


See "false analogy" again, while you're at it, get a good gander at the concept of "bias confirmation". You are inviting ridicule only because you are expressing the ridiculous.


I guess when you run out of facts to refute the person your debating you think it is reasonable to attack the debater.

Kinda like the one many post back that called me a name.
You have not brought one shred of evidence to the forum that disputes the facts and figures. Yet you accuse me of injecting MY OPINION?

Anyone reading this can see that you are the one bringing opinion to the table.
I respect that you may not agree with the numbers and what they represent.
You have that right BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT DOESN'T MAKE IT WRONG.

You keep stating opinion but where is your evidence to back it up?
I have not doubt you are a very intelligent person but there are intelligent people that are wrong everyday.
I beg you if you have facts and evidence to show your stance please show it.

As far as analogy's they are used everyday to help people understand one problem by showing another.
There is none so blind as the ONE THAT WILL NOT SEE!!!
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 423
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 2:41:18 PM
I posted the below on another thread this is what I believe that will stem the tide of throwing away marriages.


Real love is about giving of your self putting your partners feelings ahead of your own not counting the cost because you know they are doing the same for you!!!

Below is something I wrote one night when I was thinking about what love and loving someone really means. Hope you like it.


Sexy is two people in love so deep that they both want whats best for the other. Willing to stand by them in the lean times as well as the times when things are good.

It's a lady that when another man is showering her with sweet nothings never even thinks, well the grass might be greener on the other side and shuts him down even though her man has not noticed the new outfit or make up. (maybe because he has been working his butt off so you can have them)

It's a lady that even though she is beat from a hard day puts on her sexiest outfit and lights candles to set the mood. (we want y'all to start it once in awhile)

It's a lady that stands by her man even though she knows he is going to fail. Just because she loves him! (we don't mind failing as long as we know you are by our sides)

It's a lady that when the waiter is taking the order whispers in her mans ear that she forgot to put on her panties! (we love to know your a dirty girl when everyone else just sees a well dressed lady)

It's a lady that really forgives us when we do or say something dumb. (we tend to screw up from time to time you know)

It's a lady that gives you a wink and smile from across a crowded room that says just wait till we get home. (we like to know your in the mood)

It's a lady that even though shes really scared tells you everything will be alright when we have done our best. (we need to know that if everybody else has given up on us that you believe in us)



It's a man that just holds his lady when she cries. (they don't want us to fix everything they just want us to hold them sometimes)

It's a man that at the end of a long hard week takes his lady out for a night of dinner and dancing. (sometimes they want to be showed off)

It's a man that notices that she changed her make up or bought a new outfit and tells her how good she looks. Not how much did that cost! (she wants to look good for you not everyone else)

It's a man that trust her enough to have a girls night out knowing she just needs to let off some steam. (she wants to know you trust her to have fun and be true) (she will most likely come home and show you how much that means to her!!!)

It's a man that will help with the house work and let her have the remote. (she wants to know you understand how hard she works to keep a nice home for you)

It's a man that will take her shopping and hold her purse while she tries on clothes. (remember she is just wanting to look good for you)

It's a man that will get lost in her eyes while the world goes by. (she wants to know she is the most important thing in your life)

It's a man that will kiss her forehead or cheek not expecting it to lead to anything else. (do this and the rest will come latter)

It's a man that never says I told you so and just helps her when she finally asks. (she has the right to be wrong just like we do)

It's a man that waits for her to get ready knowing your late and when she comes out tells her how beautiful she is. (she will be sure to tell everyone its her fault that y'all were late)



The world has it's version of sexy this is mine. It would be nice to find a lady that understands what I am saying.

I just want one to show me that I am more important than money or some hound that's whispering the sweet nothings in your ear.

I just want a lady that will be mine forever not because I own her but because she wants to be mine!!!]/quote]
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 424
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 2:44:03 PM
I guess when you run out of facts to refute the person your debating you think it is reasonable to attack the debater.

Quite the contrary, I pointed out the flaws in your reasoning, your accusing me of employing an ad hominem (where there is none) is yet another fallacy, one known as the "red herring".

You have not brought one shred of evidence to the forum that disputes the facts and figures.

They are meaningless to the question of "motive", why bother refuting that which is meaningless to the argument when it's the argument itself that is easily refuted as being fallacious logic to begin with?

Yet you accuse me of injecting MY OPINION?

Not exactly, read (and comprehend) what I said.


Anyone reading this can see that you are the one bringing opinion to the table.

Only if they are lacking in the nuts and bolts of the dialectic process.

I respect that you may not agree with the numbers and what they represent.

As the latter is easily refuted (correlation does not mean causation), examples of this can be given by any child who's read Lewis Carroll. In light of false logic, the former is immaterial.

You have that right BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT DOESN'T MAKE IT WRONG.

As I never made this argument (argumentum ad ignorantiam) this reply merits the following response -->



You keep stating opinion but where is your evidence to back it up?

Ha! ...let's read that opinion again, shall we?

"In regards to marriage/divorce, there are only 2 experts, and sometimes they agree on the reason for marriage/divorce, ...sometimes they don't."

What evidence would convince you of the validity of this statement?


As far as analogy's they are used everyday to help people understand one problem by showing another.


Yes, and often those who try to buttress a fallacious argument with a fallacious analogy may not see the flaw in their reasoning in either case, ...expect it to be pointed out by those who do/can.

–––> Post 683:

This brings me back to your first response on this thread many, ...many pages ago, accusing women of looking for "fairy tales".


VVVVV - After reading the same thing and going in circles... I keep having this music theme come to mind... Have a listen...

Hmmm... I'm thinkin', "Nothing From Nothing" ~ Billy Preston
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 425
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 4/27/2010 2:55:28 PM
Look neither one of us is going to change our minds so you believe what you want and I will believe what I want.

I did notice that you were from Europe, and the laws over there seem to be giving a more level playing field to the no fault platform. As well as reducing the divorce rate.
I would like to hear from a person that has some experience with that type of law.
If you do I would be intrigued to see what you think.
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