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 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 601
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time? Page 25 of 54    (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54)


my take on free sites are that they attract largely cruisers (not serious), a higher percentage of married men (no credit card trail) and those for whom a pay site represents a financial burden.

I always find it funny whenever I read the above in threads since none of those reasons apply to me. I only bring it up since one of the reasons why I refrained from posting in this thread that the 80% figure was so ridiculous that it really didn't need rebuttal - but the above posted text has the same concrete reasoning as a basis, so go figure.
Heehee! I always find it amusing when people take a statement such as mine to be a personal affront. Of, course ... YOU are special! Did we actually go out on a date? Did you really interpret my personal "take" describing "largely" and "higher percentage" to encompass ALL men? I do not recall stating a percentage. I did not expose the results of a study.

I gave MY take, based on my personal experience (which also should include the fact that MOST of the men are 2-3 inches shorter than they seem to think they are). Sorry, I can only relate what MY experiences with a small sample set has been (and those of some of my friend's and acquaintances). For someone who seems to be able to refrain from disputing a specific and "ridiculous" percentage that may be construed to reflect negatively on women, you sure have no such hesitation when someone uses vague language such as "largely." How do you plan to disprove that except to state your sole dissent from being included in that set of "demographics?"

Thanks for trying to turn what I stated to be "my take" into a sweeping statistical representation of all the men on this site.


edit: And yes I am the height that I list in my profile as well. You've just got to love stereotypes
Funny how many men I met seemed to believe this also. Seems you have to meet at the door to 7-11 so that you BOTH can see the height markers that help ID the fleeing criminals before they even accept their self-delusion.

married men never do pay sites, huh? Ok ...

Who said NO married men on paid sites? Lord, I am glad you weren't involved earlier. READ my contention of higher percentage. That is my experience of having been on BOTH paid and free sites. I still meet very select men from this site, but am way more skeptical of free sites in general. However, I use the same precautions in both cases.
 Sun_Devil_92
Joined: 11/16/2008
Msg: 602
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 9:47:17 AM
^^^ Well, note that I was replying that your last comment was on flimsy foundation, and thus you have noted that your sample set is small so the point is made. Thus, with such a solid basis for your conclusion, I can tell that you will be providing your friend with solid advice when you tell her to only go to pay sites.

edit: And yes I am the height that I list in my profile as well. You've just got to love stereotypes.

edit #2:
VVV I have met decent men but I just did not have that "oumph" feeling for wanting to contine the courting. Uhm, so you are saying that you do meet men on the site that don't meet the criteria listed by Sexiest User? And married men never do pay sites, huh? Ok ...

Anyways, back to topic: it really who initiates the break-up for when the interest is lost, it is over anyways. They're doing you a favor when leaving since they're no longer leading you on, and you deserve to find someone that is in it for you and still believes that a relationship is possible. It's always a battle of the mind, and when that battle is lost, so is the war.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 603
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 10:02:30 AM
Nicecowboy7: I think what you are saying is semantics...maybe I'm wrong ,..but happy and satisfied are not synonymous..I might be satisfied with the way a dish I cooked turned out, or dissatisfied with someone who leaves their dirty socks and underwear on the floor..but, those things don't make me happy or unhappy in the grand scheme of things..and I wouldn't divorce someone over the latter...I think this may also be a result of those who think literally, and those who don't..which, while not gender specific, in my experience, I don't think literally, most of the men I know do...does it matter how it's said if the bottom line is: I'm unhappy, can we talk about it and see if we can make it better?

I have been happy generally, and happy about specific events in my life, but, honestly, by the end of my marriage, there was more unhappy than happy..and the stupid thing is, in my case, if he had been willing to compromise even a little, or take my feelings seriously...we might have stayed married...

Are you really saying that if a woman says to you " I'm unhappy", you, and most men by your implication, assume it means: you now have to fix my unhappiness...is this being obtuse, or a result of most men's desire to fix problems, or just an inability to admit you could make a difference by looking at what she is saying and listening? Or taking responsibility for your part in a relationship...whether to keep it going, or to end it...

Men are always making the comments about not changing them, and I wonder if some don't extrapolate that to: I will behave how ever I want, and you have to put up with it , even if it hurts you?

I also agree that any gender that disappears as a way to break up with someone..is being cowardly..and mean too, in my opinion...I have always taken any personal discomfort break ups, or rejections, cause as part of the deal, and I respect people in general enough, to treat them with consideration...and not dismiss them or their feelings because it might be inconvenient or uncomfortable for me..

I have met some really cool guys from POF...even from the forums..lol..but, generally, the men who are the meanest and nastiest in these kinds of threads do seem to be the minority...it's just hard to not respond, at least for me, on this kind of stuff...lol...even if it falls on deaf or uncaring ears...

I have also adjusted some of my dating behavior when men make sense about something that bothers them on here, I have rarely though, seen many men who say women may have a point about something and try it our way...it just constantly seems to still be a fight over who is "right", not about just different..

Mr Evil: Explain to me why men being bitter and jaded, or ranting is any better than women who are? You can't take to task a group of people for bad behavior while using the the same behavior to do it..without appearing ironic at best, and tunnel visioned, or a double standard, at worst....

I am of two minds on the marriage thing..for the young, I hope it survives, and I hope as a society we learn how to stay in them...for those who have been there , done that...I think religious convictions, more serious commitment minded, and those who still be believe in love everlasting will keep them alive...I don't know that I would rule them out yet...and I don't know that I am against them in principle..just gotta find the right guy for that, as men should do the same...
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 604
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 10:44:29 AM
@sundevil

I'd agree. Sure, there are MORE of the other; but I've seen many of the same people on other sites. The one exception seems to be fitness singles.

You just have to be intelligent and observant and know how to deal with men like that. As for men seeking sex, again I don't see a problem with that - I just find them weak for not being able to admit what they are here for.

Plus if you've been on here on and off for some time, the same suspects are here and just keep emailing you whenever you post a new photo - which I just find sad.


It' s usually the man's IN-actions that causes the woman to break up with the man, usually based on the fact that the guy who was dumped was taking her for granted, and sometimes he's oblivious to it as well.


I would venture to say that everyone is guilty of this. I've seen a couple go through some ups and downs and the woman admitted that her man had communicated to her that he felt taken for granted. It can both ways. I remember my first BF, at the time I did not have my license and I remember him driving me around and me thinking that it would be really easy to take this for granted. And I did take it for granted, but I think it is a good sign that I realized that as it was happening. In today's busy world, it's difficult to be constantly self-aware.


But most gripes I hear is I hear women actually verbalize sometimes their issue with their relationship, and the guy doesn't take it seriously or blows it off and says, "Meh, we're fine" when they're not fine.
For instance, I knew of a woman that had boyfriend that plopped himself in front of the TV on the weekends, drinking beers, and watching the games...but....would never go out bike riding or any outdoor activities with his g/f, even though she wanted him to, and quite frankly wasn't paying all that much attention to her needs...he was content AND happy with his relationship, but she wasn't.


And that's what many women here have been saying. Perhaps we need to be more forceful or b*tchy in our demand to be heard? I really don't think so, but maybe explaining how little things can become big things by referring to examples or past experiences might help?


This can go on for months, and all of a sudden she says, "I'm leaving" and he's like "Huh what did I do??"


Yup, heard this story many times in the last few years......


I have also adjusted some of my dating behavior when men make sense about something that bothers them on here, I have rarely though, seen many men who say women may have a point about something and try it our way...it just constantly seems to still be a fight over who is "right", not about just different.


That's been my experience too. However, I have often given thought that in the last few decades, women have been undergoing change while seemingly nothing to "benefit" men (at least what they observed watching their parents - but I guess less stress and living longer because they no longer have to work so much doesn't count?). BUT, it's been happening long enough now for people to suck it up wouldn't you think?
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 605
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 11:18:08 AM
"Explain to me why men being bitter and jaded, or ranting is any better than women who are?"

Hmmm, good question, I like it!!

Well zangie the unvarnished truth of the matter is NEITHER is attractive or better!

Communication is a skill and mindset, under most normal circumstances(unfortunately) it is generally learned from parents, siblings and friends. Few actually take the time to think about what they are about to or are saying when they say it! They merely respond from rote memory or opinions formed overtime. For those who REALLY care to communicate they can learn from a variety of sources. Books, therapists, workshops among them, but usually they don't bother.

They believe what they have been doing all their lives is good enough. So when they go to counseling, they hear blah, blah, blah. Then when the end of the session comes they hear(aside form the therapist saying "that's $70 please") "you should go home and discuss this" or "make some notes on how the communication went".

Now as an aside, let's take women and cars, men and housework. Many women will not check tire pressure, the oil level and how clean it is. Yeah they mean to, it's just not high on their list of priorities in life. Same with guys and housework, vacuming a certain way, or dusting from high to low or what clothes go in cold or hot water, what colors go together in the machine, is not on many guys list of priorities. They think "hey it got done, what's the big deal?" While I'm sure I will hear from all the genders how they know how to do this, MOST DON'T. This is part of communication, no different than talking. It's the silent part, about how we think.

Now onto your question at hand. Women and men communicate differently. They hear things differently, react emotionally to things differently and in turn evoke a different response from either sex. Additionally women CAN be more spiteful, petty than men. Most men tend to blow things off, yeah there are exceptions, but many just want to get on with life(their life as in day to day) and not dwell on things. So they want quickly to end arguments and put it behind them, OR they react with anger.

So the way this thread reads is a bash fest. Why? Because no one is communicating, just lashing out. It is so much easier to reach out in anger, than to try and reason. The baiting of each other(genders) started almost from the start of this thread. Women are much better at baiting than most men. Little digs, who needs them, we can do everything a man can do, men cause 80% of the problems, stem from that baiting. That then causes that anger reaction I was talking about.

We then went off on tangents, percentages, numbers, emotional reactions and the whole magilla of things that produced the last 20 odd pages, with each side getting in their digs, anger and negative emotions.

The title of the thread caused a good deal of this. Further the feelings it evoked in women also didn't help. Their responses while at times heartfelt, truthful and even painful to hear, were lost among those other responses that evoked the anger.

I long since my first post and a few others I made early on, gave up on it. I have just gone with the flow, and stirred the sh1t with the rest! hahahaha!!

Mr. Evil says: "you can't reason with the unreasonable!"

That doesn't go for one side or the other but ALL people. When you are hurt emotionally. When you see failure in yourself, even if you didn't fail, it just didn't work or was never meant to be, it causes feelings of inadequacy. That manifests itself in anger, blaming, and a slew of other negative emotions. Having others reinforce those negative emotions only causes more pain.

So when people rant and rave on here. They are letting out some of that pain. In some ways they are exorcising that demon within. Hopefully it can lead to a healing process, sometimes though, they remain unchanged, remarry, date again, cohabitate without fixing what was wrong in the first place within themselves. So it will fail.

So back at the beginning of my post I said "neither is attractive or better", "you can't reason with the unreasonable" so the answer is no side is right, the question can't be answered(to the OP) and neither side should treat the other as it has. But since almost all threads devolve into either he said/she said, he did/she did or which gender has it better or thinks their better, no other possible conclusion or discussion is possible.

JMHO
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 606
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 11:26:51 AM

Communication is a skill and mindset, under most normal circumstances(unfortunately) it is generally learned from parents, siblings and friends. Few actually take the time to think about what they are about to or are saying when they say it! They merely respond from rote memory or opinions formed overtime. For those who REALLY care to communicate they can learn from a variety of sources. Books, therapists, workshops among them, but usually they don't bother.

They believe what they have been doing all their lives is good enough.


Some really good points there. I also feel that posts like this are ways to encourage learning how to communicate. Also examining past relationships (in a blameless way) can help. Acknowledging your failure and part in the demise is important and I have seen you do that Mr. Evil, so I would venture to say that your communication skills improved simply based on that? Do you think that's a valid way of looking at it?

I've asked a few questions in my posts, and nobody addressed them other than Alpha, which really gave me some things to think about; which even if it makes me look wrong or even if I don't agree makes me think.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 607
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 12:48:54 PM
OMG!! LOL!! Now that thought is really one that gets me twisted!! Hahahaaha

"so I would venture to say that your communication skills improved simply based on that? Do you think that's a valid way of looking at it?"

Look being perfectly honest, I was a businessman, fairly high up in corporate structure. They sent us to seminars, classes and weekend retreats. A good number of those had a component of communication in them or were outright devoted to just communication. Here's the rub, I'm human, I'm a guy and my focus was flawed.

While I employed those skills learned to my career and business life, I didn't bring them into my home.(stupid, huh?) So while I excelled at business, was able to understand problems, communicate with subordinates I failed to notice some things with my wife. It helped with my kids somehow, I guess I thought they could use the learning experience and it made relating to them easier.

Now do I think it would have helped my marriage? No, I don't think so, I think it would have helped me to realize sooner she wasn't happy, we wouldn't be happy together, maybe even evoke a response from her or make her realize and acknowledge her dissatisfaction. Then instead of throwing things at it(college education, hire home help, more vacations, etc.) we could have divorced sooner, instead of having her cheat several times. It was in my mind, just something that never should have been.

B1tch of it is, if it ended early I wouldn't have my 2 daughters, and that would be a shame.

However now yes, I use the skills when I date. I observe very closely. I listen intently to what is being said, how it is said, body language and other things. I take much more time with dating and thinking things through. Yes I can feel as well, but first I must know them. I don't believe in being sexually involved until somewhere between the 6th and 10th date. As I've said time and again, it takes 2 or 3 dates to know if I want to date them!

The only problem here is women tend to think either I'm too picky and too clinical. If there is attraction, great see it through a few more dates, though if some things don't add up, or I see problem behaviors, I don't try and change them, don't want to sleep with them, just move on and try and find a better match. Sex only adds a level of complication, she develops feelings for me, I tend to get enthralled with them, then we both overlook things that would create problems 6 months or a year or so down the line.

I don't intend to date forever, just find someone I can share my life with and "get the he11 outta dodge"(off POF). Though this time without letting feelings cloud my judgement with regard to who they are. Also since I'm not in my 20's like my first marriage, have succeeded in biz, I focus more on "us" than a job.

Hope that answers your question.
 GotAHubCapDiamondStarHalo
Joined: 10/25/2009
Msg: 608
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 1:04:33 PM
I am glad this thread survived simply because I will come here everytime I get a certain itch that needs scratching... It kills it everytime!!!
No joke. It'll make your vahjayjay as dried up and dusty as King Tut's tomb!
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 609
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 2:55:52 PM

Hope that answers your question.


Interesting post and definitely something for us to learn from it.

<div class="quote">Now that I live with my children I feel WAY more relaxed when I come home from work in the evenings than I ever felt in the evenings when my ex was home. I feel like I have one less person to worry about and look after. One less person who wants/needs anything from me. I know the opposite should be true. I should be feeling like I wish I had a partner to come home to and share all my good and bad with, but I don't. A lot of time when things go wrong (car accident, tree collapsing on deck, son needing parental involvement) I feel relieved that I can at least get through the problems without the added burden of quibbling with another person as to how they should be solved, and still ending up doing most of the work myself. Thank goodness I haven't got a CAT to take care of, too ...lol.

Do/have men ever felt this way? This goes back to something I've felt that most women are still prison to. We were raised by stay-at-home moms, yet we were encouraged to work. So. We not only thought we had to work, but we were shown that we had to take care of our family too. To this day, now that my dad does dishes and stuff like that, he still doesn't completely wipe the stove of grease and my mom has to go back and re-do it. Now, let's take the lawn. I bet you dollars to donuts that if my mom were to mow it, he would go after her and fix what he deemed she missed.

I can't count the women at work I overhear talking about how they are still doing EVERYTHING at home. I have to wonder WHY? Is this inate? When I quiz them about this, it's often "he doesn't do it right". I wonder if exhausting oneself is really worth it for something that you deem is not done right.

I also wonder if we will see this change in the next 30 years or so.


<div class="quote">I also have experienced that men are far less willing to engage in the sometimes tough emotional slogging required to get through hard times

As I said, my experience is that men have a hard time handling the emotional stuff - they do not wish to acknowledge it and would rather ignore it until it becomes way past due. And yes, that includes someone who did several years in the was zones. That is a different kind of courage than handling a loved one who is ill or trying to save a relationship and being able to open up with your communication and emotions.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 610
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 4:12:47 PM
"how they are still doing EVERYTHING at home. I have to wonder WHY?"

No you don't, I can give you some answers.

Let's start with mom and dad. If you raise your son to be a guest in his own home, why would you expect him to be different when he's on his own or married? He can learn from dad to change the oil, to check the tire pressure, this comes natural, why because he wants a car someday! Does he think the same way about clean clothes, swept floors, vacumed room? Of course not, if mom does it all, he will learn some basic skills when he goes to college, but not really how to do the job correctly.

Since he doesn't care if his shirt smells, at least until he dates girls(some don't care even then) why would a few dust bunnies, cobwebs or dishes in the sink bother him? Mom took care of it. Now that isn't all men, but a good number of them. Further just like anything else, if you want a certain behavior, you need to put it in a way that gives satisfaction. "he doesn't do it right" doesn't butter the biscuit, with any child, any more than calling them stupid for failing a test. Communication remember, if he grows up seeing certain behaviors modelled, he will embrace them. If it's not good enough for mom, why put more effort in, she won't be happy anyway!

"will see this change in the next 30 years."

How? If mom doesn't enforce the rules, teach him how, if his job doesn't put him in a setting of expected level of cleanliness, dress and work habits. What would change him? The carpet gene? The laundry gene? hahaha

As to the emotional stuff, different strokes for different folks. If girls are taught to express feelings, boys are taught to tough it out, suck it up, don't wear your heart on your sleeve. That doesn't mean he should be an emotional basket case who cries at everything, but stop teaching parts of it as has been done for hundreds of years, you'll get a different response or result.

Now I expect a bunch to disagree with what I just said, maybe that's true for those under 30, but for those 45 and older, sorry that's the reality of it.

For some of us, who had major sh1t happen to them(no not the divorce) therapy helps, makes you examine things you weren't taught. Makes you self examine(if you take it seriously) and therefore question why you did X, or why you feel Y. What you can do to change things. For others set in their ways, therapy is just a car payment to the therapist.

They say "live and learn" for a reason, most don't, man and woman alike.
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 611
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 4:56:55 PM
Sorry jinx, I approached it from the way it was "said" in the post. I agree dad has to be modeling the correct behavior as well. Also the point I guess I was getting at, this azzumes that their is a dad in the picture, that if they are divorced(fact of life in 50% of the cases) he keeps his place much better than a sty.

Again does dad iron his shirts, vacum his rugs, keep his sink free of dishes and clean? Most custody cases wind up with mom being the custodial parent. She will have the boy around much more than dad every other weekend, in many cases.

Mom also as I said, will many times have higher cleaning standards than dad. You want better men, teach them what's better, when their young. Sometimes parents should go with their strengths. My EX could clean the house, yeah I got a maid, but she knew how it should be done.

On another level, it was more me, who insisted school came before boys. That I wouldn't pay for a wedding before they graduated college and knew what they would do(or at least have a damn good idea). That they could balance checkbooks, how savings worked, about credit cards(or the lack thereof), insurance for life, cars and health, and how they worked. How to handle their financial future.

I don't have a problem with both parents teaching, I have a problem with no teaching at all.

EDit to add: thought I should point something out after I wrote this. For pages women have been saying it's men are 80% of the probelm, they don't do this, they don't do that. BUT jinx, when I point out a way women can change this, you say it's the mans job. If women are unhappy with men and who they are and how they turn out. I would think they would want to improve that, NOT put it back on those failed men, they have railed about the last 20 pages.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 612
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 5:03:47 PM
Thanks Mr. Evil. You basically just said what I've said in a thousand posts before this one.....my questions were somewhat rhetorical LOL.

Emmjay - I do believe that there will be more men and women growing up today with numerous skills. I think boys will have more of what were considered female skills, while girls will have to learn to mow their own lawn; whereas in the past it was a boys job. Note that there will still be boys and girls being raised the traditional way though. Most of the old habits will not die.

My comments were more directed towards the 35 or so and up as I believe they are the last ones to experience the most two parents households.


<div class='quote'>The boys rooms and their laundry don't really affect me, so I don't bother with it. I just shut the doors.

Sorry I don't agree with this. The first place I was taught to keep clean was my room, and then as I grew, so did my areas to keep clean. Yes, we had basic rules on what we could do in certain areas, but I find "shutting the door" is just shutting out the problem and basically saying that a half azzed job is okay. Even as adults in my parents home, we were expected to keep our room neat and get our laundry done. When you were with your husband, did you like your bedroom kept neat and did you like the laundry not left lying around ? If so, then any woman like you will not enjoy living with your boys because the bedroom will be messy and the laundry never done. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 613
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 6:45:31 PM

Now as an aside, let's take women and cars, men and housework. Many women will not check tire pressure, the oil level and how clean it is. Yeah they mean to, it's just not high on their list of priorities in life. Same with guys and housework, vacuming a certain way, or dusting from high to low or what clothes go in cold or hot water, what colors go together in the machine, is not on many guys list of priorities. They think "hey it got done, what's the big deal?" While I'm sure I will hear from all the genders how they know how to do this, MOST DON'T. This is part of communication, no different than talking. It's the silent part, about how we think.

I think this is a really good point. We do have different ways of doing things, different priorities and both genders tend to downgrade the other guy's priority. I recognize that most men do have a blind spot (or several) about housework, but didn't think about cars being the woman's blind spot(s), but can certainly see how true it is from experience.


I long since my first post and a few others I made early on, gave up on it. I have just gone with the flow, and stirred the sh1t with the rest! hahahaha!!

Does this mean that you are the type of person that when the going gets tough/uncomfortable or seems impossible, you give up - or actively ensure things get worse?
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 614
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 7:57:52 PM

...more likely his true feelings slipping out.



Then you don't know our Mr. Evil

...there is a concept known as "Poe's Law", it relates to fundamentalism and parody of same. The more extreme the parody, the more likely that it is that people will be fooled into thinking it's real.

Well played Mr. E.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 615
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 8:06:38 PM

there is a concept known as "Poe's Law", it relates to fundamentalism and parody of same. The more extreme the parody, the more likely that it is that people will be fooled into thinking it's real.

He was playing some kind of game to fool people into thinking he's irrational and bitter? Well I, for one, am VERY impressed at his gamemanship! And I envy the lucky girl who lands him.

From Rationalwiki.com
"Poe's Law was originally formulated by Nathan Poe in August 2005. The law emerged at the creationism versus evolution forum on the website Christianforums.com. Like most such places, it had seen a large number of creationist parody postings and these parody posts were usually followed by at least one user starting a flame war (a series of angry and offensive personal attacks) thinking it was a real post "

... A troll by any other name ....
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 616
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 8:14:11 PM
He was playing some kind of game to fool people into thinking he's irrational and bitter?

A tad more complex than this, he was taking his cue from the other more, shall we say; ..."angry" posters in this thread bent on blaming their own misfortunes on an entire gender.

He was just fitting in.

Put a nickle in the jukebox, push a few buttons and watch the dancers dance...


A troll by any other name

Somewhat maybe, ...but considering the dynamic shown by the "generalists" of both genders on this thread, ...no more than any of them. He even had me going for a couple of posts, until I noticed the sub-text.

More than a few fence sitters took it as a cue to show their true colours, ...a neat little trick IMO.


And the purpose of "fooling" people

Is akin to holding up a mirror....

It IS interesting that some are attacking him personally, instead of just his comments. Quite illustrative.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 617
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 8:28:34 PM
I quite agree. Mr Evil has alluded to the fact that he is, as are most of us, a decent human being, who lives a life far different and more related to the real lives of most of us than is indicated by the persona presented on these forums. For the life of me, though, I fail to see why. There are many here who seem to be reasonable enough to see both sides of an argument. Less mercurial interaction & intelligent discussion can certainly be used to foster understanding between the genders. Were it that insightful, rather than inciteful be the goal. Good thing this site is free, huh?
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 618
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 8:46:53 PM
Hahaha, love this place!! Including all the people who AZZUME they "know me"!!

But hey, what the heck, they can think what they want, have whatever opinion they want and DO what they want. Just like me!! I am as my profile says a fan of chaos, irreverence and a person who calls a spade a spade or a fuken shovel!!

None of you know me, none of you date me, none of you have any idea of who or what I am or like or do. So have fun, say what you will, I have my own mind and opinion.

"does this mean that you are the type of person that when the going gets tough/uncomfortable or seems impossible, you give up-"

Hmmmm, don't know about that. My EX cheated 3 times, I kept throwing myself and whatever I "thought" would fix the problem at it. That's probably more than most would do, don't know that for sure, but it is what I did. Would I do that now? Probably not, I learned that "I" can't fix or control another human being. Even can't fix a situation between 2 people, it takes both. So, "you give up", no, I'd prefer to think of it, as accepting the inevitable, she makes her choices, I make mine.

"more likely his true feelings slipping out."

(sigh) Again more azzumptions! But hey, she's entitled to think whatever she wants. I'm sure I could delve into her posting history, and I'm not talking the last 24 posts they give you. I could come up with a number of interesting quotes, why bother, who cares, won't change her opinion, nor mine. Although she threw quite a bit of gasoline on the flames of the gender war, just more subtle than I did! The only thing I found interesting about what she just said was "comments about the cats(WTF?)". Seems hung up about that statement! LOL

The way I see it, she has her reasons for being here, I have mine. She has her reasons for seeing things as she does, I have mine. I have found in matters of dating, that there is only opinion, no actual facts exist, except when you find the one that's right for you and you leave, and have a successful relationship. Anything else, is opinion, conjecture and pure BS. So carry on as you see fit, won't change me, won't change you.

Just the way it is!

EDIT to add: thinking about this thread, and some other things. Something that was said on Bill Maher the other night was brought to mind(oh sh1t, not only is evil wacked, but he is a die hard liberal!) He said that Obama's policy's and were he looked at(sans skin color) 20 or 25 years ago, he would be viewed as a republican! LOL You have to think, not only feel or react to what you see. Everything is not always what it seems. Many times though, as disappointing as it is, it is what it seems. The truly smart ones, learn to know the difference!
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 619
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 8:58:10 PM

What else would I have to go on, other than what he writes?

If you have even a passing familiarity with his postings on this forum, you would have seen that his latest little run in this thread was decidedly out of character.

"It's easy to seem reasonable in a room full of monkeys flinging poo"
~ Alpha Spresley
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 620
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/2/2010 11:28:22 PM
Maffers my friend, you seem a trifle befuddled.

"I cannot make someone else happy"

No you can not, though you can contribute to their happiness and their state of mind in that regard. It is not the happiness, but the state of mind, you can alter, mood as it were. Let's use a bad example! Bringing home a card, or flowers, does not make you a better human being. Though by actions such as these, you may alter the perception of how they think of you, when "bad things happen".

No it doesn't forgive or make up for a drunken rage, or cheating. It may though make a difference in lifes little foibles, when you are thoughtful. Men seem to want to be men, manly and seem infalible, we are not. By kindness and thoughtfulness, we can molify a situation of watching a game, and arriving home a little late, or the missed phone call.

What you describe, is neither of those. While I tried to show compassion and understanding, that has it's limits. I'll admit to being a zombie in the relationship after the second time. The third was over the top and beyond what I was capable of handling. 15 times I would never have been able to endure, I would have been beyond crazy, and would have felt less inclined to look at things with anything approaching sanity.

Your problem in my mind was not infidelity, but not recognizing her problems before marriage. The plain truth was she should have dealt with these issues long before the "I do's". This is no different than a mans issues, when we plot a course together with another, we need to recognize the flaws with the attributes. See how they were dealt with, then decide on how we proceed.

While we cannot make another happy, we can affect their happiness. Relationships are give and take, neither one can be all one way and not any of the other. Those with long standing issues, undealt with, are prime candidates for failed marriages. The general problem is we can't choose who we love, but we can choose how we express it and how we live with it.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 621
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/3/2010 5:11:48 AM
and both genders tend to downgrade the other guy's priority.


Well, once you've had your bro save you a ton of money by fixing various things on your car, I don't know how you COULD downgrade it.

I think as a couple it is important for both to discuss what are priorities in the day to day.

Here's a little quote I took from a book I'm reading. Thought it was kinda ironic that comes at the same time this thread does:

"Isn't the human factor that connects us so deeply to our past? Will future generations care as much for chronologies and statistics as they would for the personal accounts of individuals not so different from themselves? By excluding the human factor, aren't we risking the kind of personal detachment from a history that may, heaven forbid, lead us one day to repeat it?"

Maffers, you and your ex simply did what scores of people "in love" have done and continue to do - be in love and not think rationally. It happens, but only blaming the other person is NOT rational (in some cases it might be, but in many the breakdown is often a shared responsibility). Mine always were.


and was blaming myself for not being enough that led her to the actions she took.


Maybe you were enough, but she felt there was something lacking. But because neither you or she brought it up - it led where it led.

Thanks for your response emmjay - I see where you are coming from!
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 622
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/3/2010 7:04:54 AM
Somewhat in support of what maffers is saying, and a different tack, I'd add this.

When someone has a traumatizing event in their past, sexual abuse, abusive father, even divorce it creates an absence of something, or a shortage of self value. I call this situation(or describe it as) an emotional hole in their heart.

Now while this may not totally cause an absence of happiness, it does create blind spots at the least, at the most it voids many feelings that the rest of us normally have.

The thing I have noticed most about this condition is they constantly try to fill the hole with either things(possessions) or people(lovers usually), to no avail. The hole needs to be closed, through therapy of one form or another(individual or support group). Because no matter how much sh1t they throw in the hole, it is in essence a bottomless pit. No amount of things or lovers will give them that inner peace that come from self worth.

So in these cases, he is right, happiness for them is elusive, maybe impossible. They don't understand it, what it is, how to find it or frankly what to do with it, when they have it. They are happy for a few minutes or a few days possibly a few months, then onto looking for the next thing to throw into the hole.

Just another thought on the subject.
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 623
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/3/2010 9:51:39 AM
The thing I have noticed most about this condition is they constantly try to fill the hole with either things(possessions) or people(lovers usually), to no avail. The hole needs to be closed, through therapy of one form or another(individual or support group). Because no matter how much sh1t they throw in the hole, it is in essence a bottomless pit. No amount of things or lovers will give them that inner peace that come from self worth.

No matter how self actualized someone is, they still desire love. Many men treat their love and attention as if it needs to be rationed and treat a woman who desires it as if there is something terribly wrong with her. They will try to find something in someone's childhood to justify it and find fault with the person who desires love. Many people have children hoping to fill that void and it takes their focus off of wanting and needing the love and attention of their partner. It's how many relationships fall apart and is unfair to a child. Even the most healthy, together, self-actualized people still desire love. I can go get all the counseling in the world, bloom wherever I'm planted, be successful, etc. but none if it will ever replace the love of a good man.
It seems the more a woman desires love, the more likely they are to be denied of it.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 624
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/3/2010 10:11:37 AM
To the person that asked if I had been ban. Not at all............. I have a life and was enjoying bike week in my home town. I also used the time to do more research on the subject, as well as the critical thinking that ALPHA suggested. Found some interesting things lets look at them.

Let's go back to the logic and critical thinking angle again


Alpha I am always willing to learn so I looked into this. I have not heard this term before so I looked it up on the internet.
Here is what I found.
Definition of critical thinking:
Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcome our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.



A well-cultivated critical thinker:

* Raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely
* Gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively
* Comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards
* Thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognizing and assessing, as needs be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences
* Communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems


Now Alpha told us we should do some critical thinking and I agree.
Lets look at a few post on here to see who comes the closest to the definition.

In the OP the man asked the question.
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?

After giving a few reasons he could think of he also stated.
There are other possiblities of course, these are just a few. I suspect it is a combination of these things in many instances, who knows? Please know I am not saying women are "wrong" to leave a relationship, of course a woman should have that right. Am only asking "why" this appears to be the case so that men can gain better understanding of women.


Now according to the definition and statement about critical thinking he is trying to do so. Even making it plain that he means no harm to women.

Now lets look at some of the responses.
This is the first answer....
Is that 80% a fact or your own experiences? Most divorces I know have been equally desired.


By the posters own words she based this solely on her experiences. So by the definition above this does not meet the criteria. ( not picking just trying to learn)

Another poster said
Well, if we're gonna pull numbers/statistics and psychological mumbo-jumbo outta our azzes, my vote goes to 5) cuz 66--80% of married men are inconsiderate jackholes

Pretty sure this is not a example of C T!

Another poster said.
It's two different conversations tho'. If you want to discuss why women initiate the divorce proceedings more frequently than men do (for which there is ample hard evidence) I would suggest that the current divorce laws, child custody and support laws would make it much more advantageous for women to file sooner than men.

Now this was the first women in the thread that did not try to circle the wagons!!!
Now this is much closer to the definition above.
The above post are by women.
Now lest look at the men as I found many of them not thinking critically.

WOW. this contains more falsehoods, made up statistics and more mis-information than the Bush administration.

Bashed the stats without even checking them. So he did not try to gather info just gave his biased opinion.


Good luck with that. Really.

Women are far too fickle for their own good, and I'd propose this is why they appear to initiate most of the breakups. The only concrete stat available just about anywhere is the divorce rate...of which 75% of divorces are initiated by women. Won't take anyone long to find those stats either.

So I suppose it'd be a pretty logical assumption to suggest that if that many divorces are initiated by women, simple relationships can't fare that much better now can they?

Too many livin' in a fairytale vacuum where the real world doesn't apply, and they feel entitled to this that and the next thing...and woe be the man that can't read her mind or "between the lines". In short, woe be the man that doesn't "get"her and her *ahem* "needs".

This jaded statement is not an example of C T either.

Men dont need a better understanding of women.. we KNOW how they are. What men need to do is to hold out for the one that is worthy and who DOESNT have her own agenda/timetable where we just become a wallet/spermdonor for THEIR dreams, but instead embraces OUR dreams as much as they want us to embrace theirs


This statement not only denies C T but goes against the reason for the thread. To better understand women and their reasons for ending a LTR or marriage.

I have been lambasted for the stats and simply saying that by the disparity in numbers it is reasonable to believe that women have filed more frivolous divorces than men.
However going by the definition above my search for information and stats follow the guidelines of C T.
I have posted stats and studies that show the experts agree with this statement. In fairness a search for the studies that would support the opposite side was done but found no studies or stats could be found. I asked the people I was debating with to post evidence that would back their stance. They posted none.

I believe the communication issue was derailed by say we (women) tell you (men) what is wrong all the time and you don't listen.
Women posters admitted that women "tell" us some very important things in code and expect us to read between the lines.

C T demands us (men & women) to "Communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems"
So a man or woman speaking in code does not meet the threshold of this important need of C T.

Before I was a scaffold builder I was in the auto repair industry.
A customer came in saying her car was shutting off. I asked her did it do it intermittently or frequently. She said "all the time".......In three days of driving the car it didn't shut off once with us. We did check some things that could cause the trouble but found nothing wrong.
When the lady returned she couldn't believe we had no trouble. I began asking more questions. As I did she became more irritated with each question asked. Now I was asking them to help her to find information that might help find the problem. In her mind she had told us all we needed to know.
After a few detailed question the fact came out it would shut off every time she turned into her driveway. She never mentioned this to me in our first talk even thought I asked when did it shut off.
We went to her house and as I turned into her drive the car stalled. It was a extremely sharp left hand turn. Almost 180 degrees. The check we did after learning this information allowed us to find that the IAC wires had gotten tangled with the steering and the linkage would pinch the wires on a extremely sharp left hand turn. Normal driving would have never caused this.
The point is it took us 15 minutes to find and fix the problem once we found the right info!!!

I think this is a good example of how men and women communicate a lot of the time. We both communicated to start with I understood her problem and she honestly thought she had relayed all the info she need to for us to find it.

However because of what I now know was C T together we were able to find what was the real cause of the trouble.
Bottom line after the first talk we had we were both satisfied we understood each other and had the info that was needed to fix the trouble. Which BTW was neither's fault but a case of what I call sh1t happens.
Even though the last questions asked of this person enabled us to find the problem. She was clearly annoyed by the request for more info.
This could have been just as easy had been a man. I have experienced the same kind of thing with them.
I used this one because this is the only time I ever saw this problem and have not seen it occur again. So the car stuck in my head.

The OP has asked a question that has annoyed both men and women the answers clearly show that.
My statement that more women filed frivolous cases was also met with resistance even though I never said women were bad and that there are women that have good reasons for wanting the divorce.

I will attempt one more way of saying what I mean. It is factual that women file at least 70% more divorces than men. So if the cases of frivolous divorces filed by men are 1000 out of the entire 30%. Using the same numbers per 30% for women would put their number of frivolous divorces would be. 2333.3333333333.........

My bias was with the percentages not the gender I said at more than once if the higher number was with the men I would still say this is a reasonable conclusion.

I want to thank Alpha in helping me understand a part of C T that I was lacking in. The ability of being able to communicate my point to others I hope this clears this up.

One thing I would like to see is women actually giving reasons for the breakdown in the relationships.
It was the OP's original question. While some has given some very good answers and some that I had never come across in my experiences. The abundance of the answers doesn't explain why. Unhappy or because we can and answers such as that does not give C T a chance to work.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 625
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/3/2010 10:24:46 AM
^^^actually I think you missed this one too:

A well-cultivated critical thinker:
* Raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely

Your questions were for the most part not questions that were vital, but rather were more defensive of your position and "what should I have done" type, basically questions that were rhetorical.

I know what my reasons (fault) is for the breakdown of my major relationship and the last relationship I had I made sure to discuss those. However, I was still dumped anyway LOL.

I don't get dumped for the usual reasons. I get dumped because I can't give a man children and I suffer from a health issue that most people are afraid of or find too "inconvenient" lol. That said, I'm more healthy than some of my friends.....

Being dumped or rejected for the usual reason is a breeze so to speak.

I notice you didn't address Alpha's comment on your emotional stats......hehe.
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