Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 651
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time? Page 27 of 54    (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54)

See, this is NOT like a woman approaching a man about a problem with the relationship (caused by one or both of the parties). First, as a service provider, you were very OPEN to communication because it is your livelihood. A lot of partners attach no such urgency to listening to their wives/husbands.

Second, the woman came to you with a problem that was, essentially her problem. She owns the car, and she owns the problem. You were the designated "problem solver", not to mention the expert in the area of cars (hard to think of a comparable example within the context of a relationship).


Though this was not about a relationship it was a dealership I worked at so all the customers that brought there cars there saw it as my problem.
We (dealership) to the customers are the makers of the cars so in there mind trust me she saw the problem as mine to fix.
As far as the comment on me being a service provider and it being my livelihood. To me a marriage is much more important than a job. Jobs are not a lifetime comment so shouldn't the people in a marriage be even more willing to work on problems?

On your second point that it was her problem and I was the problem solver. Anybody that is good at a service type work will tell you it takes a relationship to develop trust.
And though it was a problem with her car it was a problem that I had a responsibility it work with her and fix it.
You said "(hard to think of a comparable example within the context of a relationship)"
I disagree and here is why. In a relationship there are two people and most times there is one or the other that see a problem where the other does not.
Just as in the relationship the one with the "problem" had to try to let the person that could help fix the problem know there is a problem and what it is.
Notice that she did that to start with and I tried to see what the problem was, but with the information she had given even though I tried diligently the "problem" would not show itself.
Also notice when I tried to gather more information she got aggravated. Why? I think she saw this as I didn't care or that I did not listen to her to start with. Neither was true but it was the way she saw it.
Ok you say there is no way this can be used to compare this to a relationship.
Lets see if we can.
We have a problem and a male and female involved. The wife sees a problem in the relationship and goes to the husband and relays the problem to him. He looks at the same problem and though he really tries to see the problem he can see where it is any trouble or even causes a problem.
He tells the wife and and asks a few more questions about the problem to try to understand it. She gets irate and says I told you what the problem was and will not answer his questions. At this point one sees a problem and the other doesn't. No more communication is going on so the chance the problem will get solved is zero.
See though Critical Thinking is a great thing problem solving is what it takes to make a relationship work.

If people would apply the same problem solving skills to there relationship as they do to their job more couples would stay together.
Most of the time in a relationship we just blame the other for the problem.
When if we would hold the problem as a separate entity and work with the other with the love and respect we would want it would diffuse the situation.

Because just like in the example the problem with the car was not near as important as the relationship between the people.
I wanted to keep this lady a customer so she would not only buy another Pontiac but buy that car from us.
So what you missed was the example was NOT about the car or even the problem with it it was about the relationship!!!


Right. Cause when a woman is not crystal clear and precise in her explanation of what the problem might be, the man ALWAYS keeps up with the probing questions, determined to get to the root of the problem. Oh, and there is a world of difference when dealing with a paying customer who is irritated, as opposed to your loved one....IMHO. One assumes you didn't roll your eyes at your customer, turn your back as she was speaking, or pick up the remote with a pointed "could you hurry this up?" kinda look.


I covered most of this above however I will handle the last part of your statement here. In business there are customers you are excited to see and the ones when you see them walk in you roll your eyes and say not them!!!
So what is the difference here.......Could it be that the ones you are glad to see you have a good relationship with and the ones you don't the relationship is tumultuous?
There are some real idiots out there and I am not saying sometimes the other partner in a relationship always gives the attention they should.
However in a relationship at one point at least you both thought the other was the best thing in the world!!!
So did one just turn into a raving butt hole over night?
If the communication has broken down to the point that one or the other is not listening or trying it is the fault of BOTH.
Now the people involved can throw this away to "start with someone else" and repeat the process all over again or they can realize they were at one time in love and work on problem solving.


Sadly, just identifying the problem in a relationship does not always lead to an easy fix.
I imagine it is pretty easy to identify the fact that one has become a gambling addict, or has totally lost interest in sex with his/her spouse. That doesn't mean that it can be fixed.

Always easy no but until the problem is identified it is impossible to fix. You are correct in that it will most likely not be easy but is it better to throw away a relationship you have had for years or work on it.
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 652
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 12:21:23 PM
It should be about fixing the gawd damn problem, either by learning about how the other gender thinks and communicates. Or about how to recognize the problems and deal with them before they kill the relationship and stop affixing or focusing on the blame part, if that gets everybody's jollies off, then why bother?


If the other person refuses to admit there is a problem or doesn't want to fix it there is nothing else to do. Women generally overcommunicate and men undercommunicate. I can read all the books in the world about how men think or choose to communicate. To me it is all just poor excuses for the gender who doesn't seem to want committment, responsibility, or to express their emotions and feelings in a healthy fashion. When someone posted the lengthy list of what a woman needs from a man, all positive qualities of just being a good, reasonable human being, and then listed the 2 requirements from a man who would more likely be shallow and uncaring - showing up naked, with alcohol. That's all fun for a one night stand or booty call but it won't sustain a loving long term relationship. It's seems our society humorously excuses men from having good character and high standards for their behavior. Now even in cartoons the dad comes home after work and it's accompanied by dopey music, and he's the joke of the family - portrayed as a buffoon. The mom runs the family, is the voice of reason, has better judgement, etc. That is not the atmosphere I would want for a healthy family. If men want respect in a family unit again, they need to man up and step up their game - stop all of the excuses that woman just aren't understanding enough.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 653
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 12:51:51 PM

As for me I had to go over and talk to the ladies and put myself out there to be rejected cause women don't like to do that. So if I never went over to talk to them no relationship would have taken place.

And....? So what?

I keep trying to understand why anyone thinks they "have" to do anything? If you don't want to approach - then don't. If it means you don't end up in a relationship - then so be it. Why does there "have" to be a relationship in which someone has a responsibility to start things rolling? Don't approach women unless you want to. No one's making you do anything.
 myblueshadow
Joined: 11/11/2009
Msg: 654
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 12:53:38 PM

If the other person refuses to admit there is a problem or doesn't want to fix it there is nothing else to do. Women generally overcommunicate and men undercommunicate. I can read all the books in the world about how men think or choose to communicate. To me it is all just poor excuses for the gender who doesn't seem to want committment, responsibility, or to express their emotions and feelings in a healthy fashion.


I completely disagree! While individuals have differing level of skill when it comes to communication, one gender doesn’t communicate better or worse than the other. They communicate differently! The problem is with either gender having this attitude. “You are wrong because you don’t communicate like I do.” This isn’t about understanding or healthy conflict resolution, which is what is required to maintain a healthy, happy relationship. It becomes about assigning blame and “winning” the argument.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 655
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 12:57:54 PM

Identifying the problem is KEY. Mostly, I think people identify the wrong problem and focus their efforts on solving that wrong problem. Addiction or loss of interest in sex may not BE the problem. Hell, I'd argue it usually isn't the problem.

In my observation, most people spend their lives trying to fix the wrong problem. They have the same core argument throughout their relationship and the problem is usually not what they are arguing about.


Margo let me say very respectfully I WANT TO LICK YOUR MIND!!!!....LOL

All the problem solving in the world will not help if the ones involved are not working on the REAL problem!!!!

Men have their egos and women have their emotions and BOTH are getting in the way of the happily ever after!!!


It was the first time I had really sat down and considered who had initiated all of my breakups. It was the first time I had considered was there a gender bias in breaking up and, if so, why?
I was startled to realize I have initiated 100% of them.
^^ Exception is the partner who cheated on me.

Further, although it wasn't a sense of pride, I had a sense of relief about it.
"well, I'm doing ok because I have never been rejected" Although the relationships failed I had a very strong sense that it wasn't my fault, I had done my best beyond having a broken picker (which caused me extreme discomfort). Afterall, no one had ever dumped MY azz, so I must be ok except for picking lousy partners, right?

The fallacy of letting yourself off the hook because you "picked lousy partners" kept me awake for more than a few nights, lol.


WOW this is something I have never even thought of. A great example of why we should be debating this topic.
Margo let me thank you for your honesty. This is the kind of information that will help everyone understand this conundrum!!!



DISCERNING VIRTUOSA

If the other person refuses to admit there is a problem or doesn't want to fix it there is nothing else to do. Women generally overcommunicate and men undercommunicate. I can read all the books in the world about how men think or choose to communicate. To me it is all just poor excuses for the gender who doesn't seem to want committment, responsibility, or to express their emotions and feelings in a healthy fashion. When someone posted the lengthy list of what a woman needs from a man, all positive qualities of just being a good, reasonable human being, and then listed the 2 requirements from a man who would more likely be shallow and uncaring - showing up naked, with alcohol. That's all fun for a one night stand or booty call but it won't sustain a loving long term relationship. It's seems our society humorously excuses men from having good character and high standards for their behavior. Now even in cartoons the dad comes home after work and it's accompanied by dopey music, and he's the joke of the family - portrayed as a buffoon. The mom runs the family, is the voice of reason, has better judgement, etc. That is not the atmosphere I would want for a healthy family. If men want respect in a family unit again, they need to man up and step up their game - stop all of the excuses that woman just aren't understanding enough.


First the post you refer to was a joke. It is only funny because there is SOME truth in it. No reasonable person would think that is the way women or men really are.
As far as communication the fact that women tend to expect men to read between the lines have been affirmed by some of the ladies here. Does that mean men are the best at communicating? NO. However the fact is men tend to say what they mean plainly where women will at times expect men to "know what she is saying" and at the same time trying to read between his lines when there is nothing to read there!!!


As far as the TV shows I agree they portray the man as the joke......I don't know of even one man that truly acts this way. In real life both share the responsibility of running the family and sometime that is what comes between the couple. Both running around taking care of life while their relationship seems to just fade away like a ghost.
So the million dollar question is how do we do what we have to and still not loose the relationship?
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 656
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 1:02:41 PM
"If men want respect in a family unit again, they need to man up, and step up their game-stop all of the excuses that woman just aren't understanding enough."

WOW, now if your basing that on that particular joke, cartoons or how men are portrayed in sitcoms or on TV. I think you may have a perception problem.

Jokes are jokes, some are funny, some are tragic and some show the absurdity of certain situations. In that joke a woman needs 54 things to make her happy, some yes are positive others would require mych work, still others would be rare to find in one person. If you honestly believe ALL men require only alcohol and sex, you need help!

As for TV, as has been discussed ad naseum on many threads. Women spend the family money, yeah dad may buy the car, but mom gets input. Since roles have not really changed in many relationships, even 2 earner families, mom gets to spend her money and a good deal of dad's as well, when they pool their resource. In the case of SAHM's they do the brunt of the shopping for home needs, groceries and the like.

Is it any wonder that they slant the programing and advertising to appeal to her? Actually ladies tell me, how many REAL Al Bundy's, or other buffoon type of men have you met or had in your life?

"The mom runs the family, is the voice of reason, has better judgement, etc."

Again WOW, so all the guys in the world, have no judgement, are never the voice of reason, or run families? Gee someone woke up cranky today! lol

Why don't you post that in the single parents section, say on a thread about single dads with custody, who do it all, but can't get women to date them?

I guess the thread was beginning to make to much sense again, so it had to be someone else who threw 5 gallons of gasoline on the fire. I'm sorry, yeah there are men who are less than perfect, just like there are some women who shouldn't get custody but do, who show the judgement of a gnat, by ... oh what's the use, it'll only start the sh1t again.

Fuk it, I'm done with this thread, do whatever you guys want.
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 657
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 1:06:27 PM
I completely disagree! While individuals have differing level of skill when it comes to communication, one gender doesn’t communicate better or worse than the other. They communicate differently! The problem is with either gender having this attitude. “You are wrong because you don’t communicate like I do.” This isn’t about understanding or healthy conflict resolution, which is what is required to maintain a healthy, happy relationship. It becomes about assigning blame and “winning” the argument.

In my 30s I lived with a man for 2 years who drank heavily on the weekends and sometimes indulge in happy hours during the week. He made it my responsibility to take pity on him when he came home, as he couldn't do anything for himself. Alcohol also caused him to have rapid fire mood swings, be angry and beligerent. He would also cry and ask me to never leave him. His psychiatrist continued to prescribe Prozac and other mood enhancing drugs knowing full well he had a severe alcohol problem. I never once raised my voice at him, resorted to name calling - always tried to communicate CALMLY with dialogue.
He refused to admit he had a problem most of the time and if he did admit it, he would go right back to the same behavior a week later. I tried even sitting down on several occassions and writing him a letter explaining the stress his drinking was causing me for him to read the next morning when he was sober. That didn't work either. It's not about assigning blame, it's about not wanting to live with another person's problem when they refuse to see a problem with their behavior or do anything about it.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 658
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 1:12:41 PM

It was the first time I had really sat down and considered who had initiated all of my breakups. It was the first time I had considered was there a gender bias in breaking up and, if so, why?
I was startled to realize I have initiated 100% of them.
^^ Exception is the partner who cheated on me.


I agree with this,,,in fact, it may have been the same thread..lol...I have thought about it a lot since...I also never heard the phrase "bad picker" till the forums either, though I probably did wonder at why I gravitated to men who basically drove me nuts in a not good way...lol..

( Idle thought: I just spent a long time posting an answer, and somehow, lost the whole thing...sigh...should I take that as a "sign" I probably shouldn't post it?..lol..also, I spent 7 hrs in the ER last night, and am quite ill, and probably should be resting instead of posting,,,so, any mistakes or nonsensical stuff I blame on the meds..lol)

I tend to be easily hurt, and overly sensitive, and no amount of counseling ( both marital and individual) has been able to fix this much, though I have improved...my ex husband was a rational, stoic, logical, practical, non emotional type of guy...I am sure that I drove him nuts with this...he saw it as weakness, he didn't get it, and most of the time he didn't even understand what I was upset about..or, more often...why. I also had expectations of him, that in hindsight, were not realistic...especially knowing him as I did....we were friends for 7 years before we ever dated...We were also at opposite ends of the spectrum politically at the time ( he claimed he didn't know why he voted, because I just canceled him out..lol); financially, and martial expectations of wife and husband...I'm sure all those things made the marriage more difficult for him...( though in all fairness...we both knew these things about the other before....)


Further, although it wasn't a sense of pride, I had a sense of relief about it.


I had a sense of....proud of myself...and I think it important to note why....I felt I had finally taken a stand and stood up for myself, I had stopped being a doormat. and stopped trying to fix myself to suit his vision of me...it is also important to note the political/social climate for women at that time...it was encouraged to take these stands...it was said to be empowering...it was seen as a positive thing...and any women who didn't do it...were less than, weak and not "equal"...I truly believed I was being a "better" woman...

In the end, I actually had both our best interests in mind...while he wasn't unhappy enough to leave me ( and I believe the reason being what he was unhappy about was low on his hierarchy of needs...what I was unhappy about was my number one need..), he wasn't happy...there were several things ( like my inability to have children) that I couldn't have changed if I wanted to,,,and they were things that were important to him...and we did do the counseling...two years of it...the counselor even said we were never going to be able to resolve our primary problems...we were just mismatched ( the things we had in common that we both enjoyed and are what made us good friends...were not enough to sustain the relationship emotionally...)

So, while I believe that possibly if I could have fixed everything about me he didn't like..we might have made it...that wasn't realistic either...he needed to meet me half way in my mind...

As to the bad picker thing..while I get the point...I also can't help but comment that most of us do not have a list of the "best" available men, and get to choose from it ( in fact, most of us don't have the qualities needed to even attract them)..we are limited to who we meet, and who finds us attractive...if we dismiss most men waiting for the (dreaded by men..lol) Mr Perfect...what are our options? Being single forever? Never meeting him anyway? While I am not one to be in a relationship for the sake of the relationship..I do believe most people, and certainly myself..are better in one than not..while I may have made bad choices as far as compatibility in the past...I do not necessarily see that as a negative overall...I did learn from it, and I am much more attuned these days to recognizing certain personality traits or behaviors I know I don't get along with well...no matter how many other really "cool" attributes he has..lol...

I have always felt like I failed...even though I initiated...failed at relationships in general/failed as a GF/wife/failed as a woman..either because I couldn't change things about me that would have made it easier, or because I couldn't tolerate some behaviors that would have made it easier...or because I just really suck at life...lol...

It is a complicated thing, and I am trying really hard not to absolve myself of any responsibility..but, someone with my outlook has a problem thinking they are "bad" if they never mistreat or hurt anyone , and were doing the best they could at the time...motive has always meant a lot to me...several men keep asking why? I have tried to give several answers...and I think it still boils down most of the time to: it is most often our primary need that is being ignored or ridiculed or dismissed...it happens all the time on the forums too..generally ( as in , not all men...lol) many men don't even admit they don't get women, let alone try to understand them..they'd much rather just criticize us for not being like them..that is why when any male poster actually gives us a fair shot to explain and listen it impresses us..though often he is then accused by the other men of being a traitor...lol..

MJ: I don't think any of us women are disagreeing with your thoughts on communication...but, what I think is happening is that you are responding based on your previous relationships..and you seem convinced that all women are poor communicators , and throw away relationships frivolously ..and don't work on it, and some extrapolation that I don't get..that because women file more often..they are filing what you call "frivolous " divorces...you can't decide for another person what is a good reason or not...though several of us have said we did try and had good reasons...repeatedly and often..some did counseling even..some suggested it, but, the ex refused to go..while I'm sure some women and men are poor communicators, based on the posts ( and my belief that generally more thoughtful, communicating type people are posters in the first place), I don't think that is always the case...

My personal experience has been, since my first boyfriend when I was 14...that many men tend to not want to talk about problems, dismiss feelings they don't understand, and hate messing with the "status quo"..the exact opposite of many women...I maintain that these differences is what is really causing the communication problem..and only by acknowledging and at minimum trying to see the other side will it improve..my hope would be, especially with the turn in tone on this thread...that at least some of us will make an effort to do so...

I don't see many men attempting to explain their viewpoint real well without being critical or dismissive..it is possible to explain how you feel and why without saying it's all the other side's fault isn't it?
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 659
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 2:22:15 PM

Margo let me say very respectfully I WANT TO LICK YOUR MIND!!!!....LOL

Dayum, always the mind and not the body. LMAO
oops, my sweetie might lurk this *ducks*

As for TV, as has been discussed ad naseum on many threads. Women spend the family money, yeah dad may buy the car, but mom gets input. Since roles have not really changed in many relationships, even 2 earner families, mom gets to spend her money and a good deal of dad's as well, when they pool their resource. In the case of SAHM's they do the brunt of the shopping for home needs, groceries and the like.

uh huh, it has been discussed ad nauseum; I've added to it most times it has come up - so I won't bother reiterating the historical reasons why men became buffoons in the media.

As for shopping? Men buy beer, tools, tires, cars are likely a little more like a 70/30 M/F split these days (it's been too many years since I worked automotive for me to be accurate about this anymore and it does vary by model) and men influence the purchase of things like shaving cream, so the ads are directed to them although it is usually the wife who picks up the brand he prefers. That's about it. Generally speaking, he has a headache, he wants a pain reliever... he doesn't care much about which brand, as long as it is there in the cupboard. And hell, we'd better not send him out for cough syrup, he'll spend a bewildered hour standing in front of the counter looking at the myriad variety of unfamiliar brands and types, trying to figure out if he has a wet cough or a dry cough. Either that, or he'll just choose and as likely as not get told when he's home that it was the wrong one.

Me? I read labels, I compare - I waste VAST amounts of time comparison shopping trying to decide on the right brand. LMAO, thank heavens my sweetie comes with me sometimes to remind me to "choose". My decisions can take hours and hours and hours.

As a sidebar to this, women tend to (here it comes, another generalization) DECIDE and men CHOOSE. I remember one day I was explaining decision making models to my sweetie and his eyes just lit up as somehow it answered something that had likely puzzled him much of his adult life. I even did an example that demonstrated the difference (For the interested it's: 2 ice cream cones - 1 chocolate, 1 vanilla - pick one. *chocolate* OK - Why did you choose chocolate?). Then I ruefully said as much as I know about this stuff, I still make decisions rather than choices (although I am *trying* to choose, LMAO).

Much, much nicer tho', rather than have him be driven out of his mind with the way my brain works, that I have given him a tool to use to speed things up. Nice that it also helps me with one of my pet projects.

I *suspect* this sort of stuff provides a certain amount of wear and tear in relationships that more than likely leads to miscommunication and break ups.


Fuk it, I'm done with this thread, do whatever you guys want.

oh hell, say it isn't so!! I get a thrill out of your rants.

ZANGIE: Take care.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 660
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 3:12:42 PM


MJ: I don't think any of us women are disagreeing with your thoughts on communication...but, what I think is happening is that you are responding based on your previous relationships..and you seem convinced that all women are poor communicators , and throw away relationships frivolously ..and don't work on it


Zangie now we are making progress. Not just applying force to the problem but actually working by moving the problem along closer to the point of a solution!!! I like it!!!

However I am not basing my thoughts on the way women communicate solely on my past relationships. There have been a few of the women on here agree with my view on this.
I also do not believe that ALL women are bad communicators. I have said and do believe in a relationship the majority of women do not communicate the way they would in say a boardroom.
If women would use the same communication skills they do in the business world in their relationship it would take the factor of the man standing there saying "HUH" out of it. Also if men would take a break from their ego and realize that their partner has a problem that is real to them and not dismiss it as unimportant we all would be better off.

On the statement you made about me thinking "all women throw away relationships frivolously and don't work on it".
I think if you go back and read the post I made on that I actually said that it is a very small number of women that do this.
The fact is most marriage's work so these women are not even in play here. So who are we talking about here? The ones that do subscribe to the grass is greener, it is easier to move on than work on it, and all the other reasons they decide is a "good reason" not giving the due consideration of how everyone else is effected. I never even said that all that file first were in this group. I have said that some had good reasons for their divorce. Making the number of this group even smaller.
What I did say is because of the lopsided percentage's there are more of them that are than men.
Notice I said more than men so I am saying men do this as well but in a much smaller number.
See when you try someone tries to read between the lines it introduces "facts not in evidence.


.that because women file more often..they are filing what you call "frivolous " divorces...you can't decide for another person what is a good reason or not..


While I agree that I can not decide what is a good reason lets look back at what they vowed to do on their wedding day. Seeing as they took the vows of their own free will shouldn't they be held accountable for them?
Again there is a a very small number doing this.........However these are the very ones in the "dating pool" making it very important to us seeking someone to know they are out there. Again the fact is both men and women do this but the number of women is higher!!!


.though several of us have said we did try and had good reasons...repeatedly and often..some did counseling even..some suggested it, but, the ex refused to go


I do not doubt that this is true but I can tell you that it is not gender thing as I have seen the woman refusing the counseling in many cases. So this is a problem I would say is shared equally.


My personal experience has been, since my first boyfriend when I was 14...that many men tend to not want to talk about problems, dismiss feelings they don't understand, and hate messing with the "status quo"..the exact opposite of many women

I wonder if more women would communicate with their men the way they do in the boardroom, would the men understand these feelings better, and be more willing to examine them in a problem solving way. Without having to wade through a maze of reading between the lines or trying to figure out which of the fifty "nothings" she is talking about.
What I am saying is a good amount of this NOT ALL is from men trying to understand a problem when women talk in "code" and not understanding the code.
We get to a point of giving up because no matter how hard we try we don't understand.
There are men out there that have a ego problem that will never allow him to understand what his partner is trying to say no matter how plainly she would explain it.
So both genders need to work on communication skills. Again it would be a lot easier to do if the love and adoration that they once thought so important would be kept in mind.


I don't see many men attempting to explain their viewpoint real well without being critical or dismissive..it is possible to explain how you feel and why without saying it's all the other side's fault isn't it?

I think that the denial of the majority of the women here that the fact it is easier for women to "start over" and the current laws help in this, also the woman can plan this out way before the man knows of her thoughts.
Funny thing is the women that have been willing to admit these things is the ones that have went through the same thing with the men being the ones cheating and or leaving.
See I have never tried to affix blame on one gender,only the fact one does this more than the other.
Yet I have been accused of blaming all women all the time. So is it I am being critical and dismissive or is it more that the feelings I am trying to explain are dismissed because you see it as a attack on your gender?

I want to thank you for a reasonable debate point this is how we will learn from each other.....Though I doubt this thread will solve the problem entirely it hopefully will shed some light that will help us in future relationships.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 661
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 4:55:03 PM

See I have never tried to affix blame on one gender,only the fact one does this more than the other.


Sigh,,,there is no "proof" that one does it more than the other...the only thing the stats say is that women file more often..IT DOESN'T GIVE THE REASONS WHY for either gender.,..it doesn't tell you why they are filing first either..this is illogical reasoning...even if 80 of out of 100 divorce filings are women, and 20 were men...where is it indicated the reasons why any of them filed...all 100 could have filed for infidelity..how do we know what the reasons are? Half could have filed first because the other wouldn't for some reason..there is no direct correlation between the stats and reasons...there just isn't ....more women filing does not extrapolate to more more women filing for "frivolous" reasons...

So, women have been trying to tell you some of the reasons they did..also several have explained that they didn't file first because they wanted the divorce...or, like me...I never filed at all...those stats do not support your theory...


Seeing as they took the vows of their own free will shouldn't they be held accountable for them?


I haven't seen a single person of either gender admit to breaking any vows...the vows are pretty basic and only allow for some narrow reasons for divorcing....I didn't break any vows....


I am trying to explain are dismissed because you see it as a attack on your gender?


I see it as an un substantiated attack, and an unnecessary one, and a HUGE generalization that doesn't hold true for many on this thread...aside from all that...I believe you get more flies with honey than vinegar...the way to understand someone is not to attack them..you can just as easily pose this question without attacking or being insulting...how do you expect someone to answer to an attack? With cooperation?


What I am saying is a good amount of this NOT ALL is from men trying to understand a problem when women talk in "code" and not understanding the code.


I don't talk in code...I talk differently than you do, and I process differently...it makes perfect sense to me in my brain....and if you don't understand, then you need to keep asking me...nicely..not in an accusatory or dismissive way ..what I mean, or that you don't understand...because I am not trying to be obtuse...it is just the way I process things...it is my natural way of relating..and I will not know if you are confused if you do not tell me that...I will read it as dismissive..because IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ME...the thing about communication is that both sides have to try...you appear to always be saying that women need to fix it all, because they have a problem and men do not...

It would also help if your posts weren't always dripping with condescension...you talk down to most of us..and that is always hard to ignore...


I think that the denial of the majority of the women here that the fact it is easier for women to "start over" and the current laws help in this, also the woman can plan this out way before the man knows of her thoughts.


I can't comment on what I haven't personally experienced...it wasn't easier for me..he got almost everything of value...I came close to being homeless...then again...he married a woman who didn't try to use money to punish him with...and isn't vengeful by nature...also, most of the men I date still make at least twice as much money as I do...so, all other things being equal..it is easier for them to recover, and faster...they may have to pay out more in the beginning...but they have both the opportunity and ability to recoup much faster...this would hold true especially for SAHM's....

I don't know MJ..can you acknowledge that many women think/process differently than you do..and it isn't "wrong" it is different..and it is possible to learn to communicate with each other without any blame or some drastic change in our respective ways at looking at things...

anathasia: don't know what happened to your post...but, thanks both for the well wishes and the video..a humorous way to acknowledge we do think differently...
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 662
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 6:23:09 PM
^^ I've read your posts for long enough Dawn to say, yep, you've got more of the so-called male brain.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 663
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 6:39:03 PM

Sigh,,,there is no "proof" that one does it more than the other...the only thing the stats say is that women file more often..IT DOESN'T GIVE THE REASONS WHY for either gender.,..it doesn't tell you why they are filing first either..this is illogical reasoning...even if 80 of out of 100 divorce filings are women, and 20 were men...where is it indicated the reasons why any of them filed...all 100 could have filed for infidelity..how do we know what the reasons are? Half could have filed first because the other wouldn't for some reason..there is no direct correlation between the stats and reasons...there just isn't ....more women filing does not extrapolate to more more women filing for "frivolous" reasons...

So, women have been trying to tell you some of the reasons they did..also several have explained that they didn't file first because they wanted the divorce...or, like me...I never filed at all...those stats do not support your theory...


No the 70/30 stats do not support that theory. However the numerous other studies,polls of divorced people and the massive amount of experts that show this trend do.
One woman that was going to write a book praising no fault and the ability of women to divorce "just because they wanted to" when she did her own research the information she found appalled her so much she decided to write a book about how damaging divorcing "just because you want to" needs to be done away with.
I reiterate THIS WAS A WOMAN!!!!

I will not re-post them as anyone that has questions can scan back and see them.


I haven't seen a single person of either gender admit to breaking any vows...the vows are pretty basic and only allow for some narrow reasons for divorcing....I didn't break any vows....


If you can't see that divorcing "just because you want" is not breaking vows I will not waste my time on explaining it.


I see it as an un substantiated attack, and an unnecessary one, and a HUGE generalization that doesn't hold true for many on this thread...aside from all that...I believe you get more flies with honey than vinegar...the way to understand someone is not to attack them..you can just as easily pose this question without attacking or being insulting...how do you expect someone to answer to an attack? With cooperation?


How is bringing information from many sources that all say the same thing an attack? Many of the experts are women that see this as a real problem.
Not to mention the effect on the children.
just because "many on this thread" doesn't believe it does not mean it is not true.
Christopher Columbus was the only one that knew the world was not flat at the time.....we all know who was correct there. So just because you decide to ignore the overwhelming amount of information backing my "theory". Does not mean my theory is wrong.


I don't talk in code...I talk differently than you do, and I process differently...it makes perfect sense to me in my brain....and if you don't understand, then you need to keep asking me...nicely..not in an accusatory or dismissive way ..what I mean, or that you don't understand...because I am not trying to be obtuse...it is just the way I process things...it is my natural way of relating..and I will not know if you are confused if you do not tell me that...I will read it as dismissive..because IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ME...the thing about communication is that both sides have to try...you appear to always be saying that women need to fix it all, because they have a problem and men do not...

It would also help if your posts weren't always dripping with condescension...you talk down to most of us..and that is always hard to ignore...


I never said that women need to fix it all. Did you miss the part where I said men need to get over their ego and realize that their partner has something she sees as a real problem?
I did say women should be more to the point and not expect men to read minds or figure out which one of the fifty meanings of "nothing" she is currently using.
Again if a men is not willing to give credence to his mates problem when she is being straight forward then he needs to remove his head from his azz!!!!

As far as you conceiving that I am talking down to anyone I am sorry you are wrong. I promise I have been called more names and told how pigheaded I am many more times than I have popped back with a witty comment!!!
Most of those times was when I invited them to post stats or polls or studies that show their side.


I can't comment on what I haven't personally experienced...it wasn't easier for me..he got almost everything of value...I came close to being homeless...then again...he married a woman who didn't try to use money to punish him with...and isn't vengeful by nature...also, most of the men I date still make at least twice as much money as I do...so, all other things being equal..it is easier for them to recover, and faster...they may have to pay out more in the beginning...but they have both the opportunity and ability to recoup much faster...this would hold true especially for SAHM's....

I don't know MJ..can you acknowledge that many women think/process differently than you do..and it isn't "wrong" it is different..and it is possible to learn to communicate with each other without any blame or some drastic change in our respective ways at looking at things...


If you check the info on this or even go back and read some of the post that women made you will see it is not easier for the man to recover.
Also there have been many men on here that talked about how their women had already had a lover in the wings she could move in with.
I didn't hear one woman tell that story.
Even if that is not the case the laws in some states require the man to pay enough support to keep the woman in the home they had till the children are out of the house. while forcing him to live below what he was accustom to even though it was her just want to find herself......Hardly fair is it?

"SAHM's" sorry I don't know what this is please explain.

I never said that the way women think is wrong. Or to think differently than me is wrong. I have even posted comments about how it opened my eyes to new thoughts and ways of thinking when a woman posted something.
I don't expect you or any woman to change the way you think or your respective, just to be able to relay that to us without leaving us scratching our heads.
However there is post after post of your gender ranting about how worthless all men are.
Some men have given up posting because of the ravings of such!!!
I am more like the Spartans...... I never retreat....... I never surrender.....I stand my ground....However if someone comes with more than opinions and conjecture I will concede if I am shown a better way or proof that I was wrong. In this case neither has happened!!!
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 664
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 6:52:56 PM
The first step in understanding is to learn how to listen unbiased to what is being said without already planning ones rebuttal. Its only code when one doesn’t take the time to learn the language. Everyone has something to say that means something to them, if something is not understood, its up to the listener (if they care enough) to try and understand.


A good thing to do as a listener is to repeat what the speaker said in your own words back to them to reiterate and then carry on with your response.

While I agree that relationships are not board meetings. When people ARE in meetings and are not clear - they are asked nicely to explain themselves until the listener understands. Only through practice will both parties learn, however reminding each other of how they do communicate would be helpful. I rarely see men rebutting with this in the moment; but I often hear women saying "did you hear what I said?"

I believe it has been the experience of women that men simply nod or come out with "yes dear" "uh huh", then when she asks him what he said, he is unable to respond.

I'm not saying your ideas do not have merit, but there are only so many that read the forums; so sometimes it will only be one half of a couple with good communication skills which are totally lost on the other half. The ideas are good, but it's only once they are in practice that the real results are seen.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 665
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/4/2010 7:06:46 PM

Christopher Columbus was the only one that knew the world was not flat at the time...

Not true actually and besides, he thought he landed in India.


"SAHM's" sorry I don't know what this is please explain.


SAHM/SAHD is Stay At Home Mom/Dad


However if someone comes with more than opinions and conjecture

Opinions are not equal, those based in fallacious reasoning do not stand up to those that are well-reasoned.

Conjecture, same thing.

You are still mangling critical thinking by trying to work it backwards, it doesn't work that way, it's a process that only works in one direction.

You still haven't recognized that "correlation does not imply causation" in regards to statistics.

It's simple, things like separation and divorce are legal processes, nothing to do with WHY a relationship fails, no matter who initiates. -> correlation does not imply causation.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 666
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 12:34:54 AM

Not true actually and besides, he thought he landed in India.

Yes he did think he landed in India but even though he didn't know exactly where he landed he still proved the world was not flat.
So your point is?


SAHM/SAHD is Stay At Home Mom/Dad


Thanks for the info learn something new everyday.


Opinions are not equal, those based in fallacious reasoning do not stand up to those that are well-reasoned.

Conjecture, same thing.

You are still mangling critical thinking by trying to work it backwards, it doesn't work that way, it's a process that only works in one direction.

You still haven't recognized that "correlation does not imply causation" in regards to statistics.

It's simple, things like separation and divorce are legal processes, nothing to do with WHY a relationship fails, no matter who initiates. -> correlation does not imply causation.


True opinions are not equal mine are not based on the one set of stats that everyone seems to be in a tizzy about. My opinion is based on many studies polls and experts that I have researched.
While the 70/30 stats speak nothing to my claims they did give a jumping off point. Making me wonder why are they so lopsided.

So after researching the question and finding many sites and information that shows what I am saying is correct I formed a opinion based on that.
To be fair I tried to find information that had the opposing view I found nothing. I even asked the other side to post anything they found.....I have seen nothing so far.

You say I am mangling Critical thinking. Am I? The below quote was from a famous critical thinker.
He was commenting on taking critical thinking to the point of not being able to make a decision. While I may not understand C T as well as you I am sure he did.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are****ure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
~ Bertrand Russell

Another great thinker said

You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.
~ Mahatma Gandhi


The no fault laws have not accomplished one of the goals that it was designed to do yet it has wreaked havoc on the fabric of our country and caused or increased numerous social problems.
Gandhi also said

Use truth as your anvil,

nonviolence as your hammer and

anything that does not stand the test

when it is brought to the anvil of truth and

hammered with nonviolence, reject it.

Sir I have done just this using the standards of C T .


A well cultivated critical thinker:

* raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and
precisely;
* gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to
interpret it effectively comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;
* thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought,
recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
* communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.

Notice the gathers and assesses relevant information.......I did just this and you say I have not used C T correctly while the side you defend has brought only their opinions and personal experience to the discussion. Lets see what critical thinking says about that.


Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.


Looks like it says to leave the bias of personal experience out. That if thought is based on just personal experience it is flawed.

I don't doubt your intelligence, however when I bring your statement of me not using critical thinking correctly to the anvil of truth and hammer it with non violence I am afraid it does not stand the test.
If you really believe C T will settle this debate why not tell the others to use it in bringing forth the information that would prove me wrong?
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 667
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 1:17:14 AM

Who cares who said it? The validity of a statement has nothing to do with the gender of the person who makes it.

When will you ever understand that divorcing because your spouse failed to show you that he/she loves, honours and cherishes you is NOT THE SAME THING as leaving "just because you want to"?


The reason gender was important was the post I was replying to said.


So, women have been trying to tell you some of the reasons they did..also several have explained that they didn't file first because they wanted the divorce...or, like me...I never filed at all...those stats do not support your theory...


I was just pointing out that a woman that done her own research to write a book praising no fault found it appalling. As the poster I was responding to seems to think this is a war between women and men. And that only a man could think like I do.

I never said that divorcing a spouse that does not love and honor you is the same as just because you want to.
However I doubt that any spouse just falls out of love with someone that treats them well.
So the question there would be, what part did she play in making him not love her anymore?
Or is it always the mans fault that he fell out of love with her?


See above.


See above also!!!


People on this site have a lot of "stories" you haven't heard...and a lot of people make "stories" up. I would hope you are not suggesting this is some sort of hard DATA?!


See my answer to Alpha in post 1029 I spelled it out there in detail when I answered his statement about me mangling C T.


My ex now lives in our former marital home. He has much nicer stuff in it now than we ever had. I live in a house maybe a third of the size that I owned with him. His lifestyle has not changed.In fact, he has way more toys than he did before. I am the one whose lifestyle has been drastically reduced. Is that fair? Well, I don't think it is unfair, per se...he makes way more money than I do. Besides, I understood what I was agreeing to, and really just wanted the whole ordeal (the marriage, not the divorce) to be over with. The point is, there are examples every where you look of persons of both genders getting screwed over one way or the other in the divorce. Divorce isn't pretty, and no one "wins" anything. Men are no more the victims of divorce that women are.


While time to time a woman will end up on the short end of the stick. The men are there expediently more. There are many studies and experts that will show this to be true so I will not post the info. Just Google it's there.


As with your mechanic analogy, it is flawed to suggest that the motivations of lovers versus business associates are similar, and motivation is a key part of communication. Let's say your client spoke in code....you'd try very hard to understand him/her because he/she will simply take his/her business elsewhere if you can't figure it out. Some partners are simply not motivated to understand the other, as they do not believe their partners will ever leave.


I noticed you left out the part where I said any man that can't get over his ego and see that his partner has a problem that is real to her needs to take his head out of his azz.
Would that be to make it seem I was gender biased on this?
If you are going to quote me please make sure the true context of what I said is quoted.
When you try to make someone look biased by taking their quotes out of context it is not hard to show who is truly biased!!!


You have a problem when some women generalize that men don't listen, but no problem suggesting that women talk in code.


See above I believe I covered the males responsibility to give credence and listen to his spouse.
Again you took my statement out of context.......Is it really that hard to refute me that you have to stoop to that?


Fascinating! A lot of women get to the point of "giving up" because no matter how well we explain, or how "hard we try" their spouses simply would not hear, or failed to comprehend the seriousness of the problem, or tried to apply a band aid to a bleeding artery! Now, if the man got the point of "giving up" and filed for divorce, which part of the vow would he or his spouse be breaking?


Again out of context......I was speaking of trying to listen not divorcing.


It isn't easy at all! It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do.

I trust it has occurred to you that men can plan out their departure in advance of telling their partners, also?


Of course it is possible. Only thing is I have never heard of it happening . Has it? Most likely but I doubt it happens on a equal scale.
 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 668
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 1:37:44 AM

Yes he did think he landed in India but even though he didn't know exactly where he landed he still proved the world was not flat.
So your point is?


From Wikpedia:



The knowledge that the Earth was spherical was widespread, and the means of calculating its diameter using an astrolabe was known to both scholars and navigators. A spherical Earth had been the general opinion of Ancient Greek science, and this view continued through the Middle Ages (for example, Bede mentions it in The Reckoning of Time). In fact Eratosthenes had measured the diameter of the Earth with good precision in the second century BC.


I think the point that Alpha is trying to get you to see is that your belief about Christopher Columbus is as erroneous as your belief in stats - which actually showed divorce rates beginning their more rapid rise during the Industrial Revolution which had people leaving the family farms and going to live and work in the city.

Men and women break up. Men and women get hurt. Men and women point the finger at the one another.

This brings me to a really petty thing from quite a few pages back. Dayum. I wish I'd known that before getting divorced I was supposed to get my boobs done. :devil:
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 669
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 1:49:41 AM

I think the point that Alpha is trying to get you to see is that your belief about Christopher Columbus is as erroneous as your belief in stats - which actually showed divorce rates beginning their more rapid rise during the "Industrial Revolution" which had people leaving the family farms and going to live and work in the city.


Well then why is it taught as a fact in school books all across this country? However if I am incorrect about him being the only one.
The fact is the common belief in that day and his country was the world was flat. His reason for the trip he made was to prove that is wasn't. And that is precisely what he did.

As far as stats they are NOT the only research I have done on this. The preponderance of evidence I found supports what I have said.

The industrial revolution could very well have had a effect on divorce rates, however seeing as the debate is centered on the more modern rates that happened when no fault became the norm. The I D stats have not got a lot to do with it. Other than showing even back then women still filed at a higher rate and that was as soon as they got the right to file..........Hummmmmm wonder what that means?


This brings me to a really petty thing from quite a few pages back. Dayum. I wish I'd known that before getting divorced I was supposed to get my boobs done. :devil:


As far as the boobs I am sorry you didn't get the memo......lol
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 670
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 8:39:55 AM

I never said that divorcing a spouse that does not love and honor you is the same as just because you want to.
However I doubt that any spouse just falls out of love with someone that treats them well.
So the question there would be, what part did she play in making him not love her anymore?
Or is it always the mans fault that he fell out of love with her?


MJ: I fell out of love with him..he didn't fall out of love with me...so, i didn't do anything that "made" ( which you can't make someone love you or not) him fall out of love with me..he believed he loved me just fine...he was short on understanding what loving actions were though..and yes, you can fall out of love with someone who doesn't mistreat you...it happens..you can even still love someone who does..human nature is not predictable that way....or always logical or rational...

I actually gave you plenty of real life examples from the law firm I work at, which specializes in domestic law, we see roughly around 1000 new clients a year, and half that many at any given time as ongoing clients, p;us i have exposure to the rest of the firms in the county, and the courts...one of the partners has actually helped write the domestic laws in Ohio..he is well respected across the state, and even out of it...the woman you keep referring to...the results she concludes are just her opinion also..I was giving you stats that I actually have seen in practice...and you dismissed them as irrelevant...

I can't believe you can't see the misogyny in statements like:


Other than showing even back then women still filed at a higher rate and that was as soon as they got the right to file..........Hummmmmm wonder what that means?


You really believe the right to file should be taken away from women because, IN YOUR OPINION, they misuse it..sounds like control to me...or the desire to put women back in their "place"...

I would think these are very key components to critical thinking;


* thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought,
recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
* communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.


I haven't seen much of either of those...

And BTW: You said that men should only listen to their wives if their wives expressed themselves in a manner understood and recognized by men..I happen to believe, whether male or female, that left brain thinking ( more logical or rational) is a God given talent/trait...and I think there is some scientific research that it does have some basis in evolution and the different tasks of genders at the time..I have never been a good left brain thinker...have made some attempts, but, basically, it's just not how my brain works...I have always been drawn to those who can though, because I don't have it..my father was very left brained, and I adored him...but he was constantly lamenting the fact that I didn't think like him...and I wanted to please him, I really tried...just not how I operate..he didn't always "get" me either...but, at least he listened and tried to..and asked questions when he didn't get it...

And dawn: my brain would be a nightmare for you...lol..it really does have hundreds of things going on at the same time, all connected somehow,. and emotions/feelings in there affecting my decisions/thoughts...

I get that a lot of men, and some women, don't get it....but, it is just the way I process, and even if I thought I could change it, I don't think I would...I really don't see it as "evil"..just different..and I think both perspectives are needed..I really try these days to translate to men what I mean...and even in the translation I am often misunderstood or misinterpreted..so, as long as they don't dismiss me based on what they think I mean..we have to keep talking till we both are clear on what's being said...and that is good communication in my mind...
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 671
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 10:46:29 AM
Well then why is it taught as a fact in school books all across this country?

Are you serious?
Dude, you've been sold a myth, and you apparently bought it.
His reason for the trip he made was to prove that is wasn't.


Is this from a nursery rhyme?
And that is precisely what he did.


This is your idea of critical thinking I guess. Seriously dude, you still don't get it. If you did you wouldn't be clinging to fallacy as much as you STILL continue to do.

As far as stats they are NOT the only research I have done on this.

The stats do not mean the things you claim they do, the sample group is also not as complete as you claim it is. Kinda' like your Columbus example, it has no basis in reality.

however seeing as the debate is centered on the more modern rates that happened when no fault became the norm.

Really? Where do you get that from, I just read the OP and it doesn't even have the word "Divorce" in it. It's really just a misogynistic rant, a baseless one at that.

Other than showing even back then women still filed at a higher rate and that was as soon as they got the right to file..........Hummmmmm wonder what that means?

Looks like it means that you share the OP's misogynistic bent, and his proclivity for making erroneous conclusions. Don't worry, Columbus probably shared your view of women and ...rights.

Many in this thread continue to point out the many flaws in your reasoning and logical fallacies you are employing and you keep on pointing to the same fallacies and saying, "No! ...seeeee????"

Nobody doubts your ability to Google things, it's your thinking that you are "proving" your point with "facts" that has been refuted time and time again that you WOULD actually understand if you viewed your erroneous conclusions, errors in reasoning and faulty logic under the light of critical thinking (Yes! we know you can Google things about critical thinking, it's actually comprehending how it works that you have yet to display a grasp of).

Let's see, you are clinging to fallacies in order to assign blame to an entire gender, "...wonder what that means?"


Gandhi also said...

~ In a letter to Adolf Hitler; "“We have no doubt about your bravery or devotion to your fatherland, nor do we believe that you are the monster described by your opponents.”
M. Ghandi

Did you read his autobiography, especially the part about beating his wife? How about the fact that he denied her life saving medication saying that her life was in the hands of "god" (she died the next day) and later in life when he faced the same dilemma, he decided to trust medication..

??

One even tried to use a thinking process to show I was wrong when the process actually showed the flaws of the people attacking me.



 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 672
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 10:57:23 AM

You will only win your argument by attrition mjyawn67, your endless verbiage will bore the snot out of everyone and then you can claim victory as the last man standing. That and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee but your single-mindedness will still remain.


I didn't know I was trying to win anything.
A debate is meant to exchange ideas discuss points and show information. I have commented on several post that I had not ever thought of.

I have took a stand and defended it. At the same time I asked the people that told me how wrong I was to post any facts or information that would support their view.
Nothing was posted yet I was attacked with name calling and people telling me how closed minded I am.
One even tried to use a thinking process to show I was wrong when the process actually showed the flaws of the people attacking me.

So tell me who is really open minded?

Just because I make a stand and am able to defend that stand does not make me closed minded. Especially when the other side is misquoting me calling me names and not supporting their stand, except with their opinion and conjecture.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 673
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 12:10:20 PM

MJ: I fell out of love with him..he didn't fall out of love with me...so, i didn't do anything that "made" ( which you can't make someone love you or not) him fall out of love with me..he believed he loved me just fine...he was short on understanding what loving actions were though..and yes, you can fall out of love with someone who doesn't mistreat you...it happens..you can even still love someone who does..human nature is not predictable that way....or always logical or rational...


I was replying to a post that made the statement that he fell out of love with you. I assumed she had made a correct statement.
Regardless of who fell out of love both of you had a hand in the demise of the marriage.
But when reading your post you never mention your part in that only his.


I actually gave you plenty of real life examples from the law firm I work at, which specializes in domestic law, we see roughly around 1000 new clients a year, and half that many at any given time as ongoing clients, p;us i have exposure to the rest of the firms in the county, and the courts...one of the partners has actually helped write the domestic laws in Ohio..he is well respected across the state, and even out of it...the woman you keep referring to...the results she concludes are just her opinion also..I was giving you stats that I actually have seen in practice...and you dismissed them as irrelevant...


I have no doubt of your firms credentials however they are not a country wide example.
The stats I introduced are compiled from across the nation some from the government some from independent firms that compile information all the time. They have no dog in the fight and no reason for not telling the truth.
So who's facts are more accurate the ones compiled by many or the one you give us from your memory?

The woman I am referring to has a Doctorate she set out with the agenda of writing about how great no fault was.....The book she wrote after her extensive research changed her closed mind.
Her professional opinion was changed once she did her research.... Have you even tried to find info that supports your claims? I have and I found no facts at all.


I can't believe you can't see the misogyny in statements like:


Other than showing even back then women still filed at a higher rate and that was as soon as they got the right to file..........Hummmmmm wonder what that means?


You really believe the right to file should be taken away from women because, IN YOUR OPINION, they misuse it..sounds like control to me...or the desire to put women back in their "place"...


Go back and read my statements never have I said that anyone should not have the right to divorce for any reason they want.
Just that the laws should be overhauled to be fair.

The European laws have addressed this I won't go over them again but I thought they were a very fair way of bringing balance to this problem.
And a quick easy no fault is available if the couple can agree on the details.
Tell me how is that misogynistic?


I haven't seen much of either of those...

And BTW: You said that men should only listen to their wives if their wives expressed themselves in a manner understood and recognized by men..I happen to believe, whether male or female, that left brain thinking ( more logical or rational) is a God given talent/trait...and I think there is some scientific research that it does have some basis in evolution and the different tasks of genders at the time..I have never been a good left brain thinker...have made some attempts, but, basically, it's just not how my brain works...I have always been drawn to those who can though, because I don't have it..my father was very left brained, and I adored him...but he was constantly lamenting the fact that I didn't think like him...and I wanted to please him, I really tried...just not how I operate..he didn't always "get" me either...but, at least he listened and tried to..and asked questions when he didn't get it...

And dawn: my brain would be a nightmare for you...lol..it really does have hundreds of things going on at the same time, all connected somehow,. and emotions/feelings in there affecting my decisions/thoughts...

I get that a lot of men, and some women, don't get it....but, it is just the way I process, and even if I thought I could change it, I don't think I would...I really don't see it as "evil"..just different..and I think both perspectives are needed..I really try these days to translate to men what I mean...and even in the translation I am often misunderstood or misinterpreted..so, as long as they don't dismiss me based on what they think I mean..we have to keep talking till we both are clear on what's being said...and that is good communication in my mind...


First on the critical thinking I just love how the ones saying I should do this are picking and choosing the parts that they are going to fallow!!!

Here is what C T requires.....
A well cultivated critical thinker:

* raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and
precisely;
* gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to
interpret it effectively comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;
* thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought,
recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
* communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.


Note that you have to have all of them for it to be critical thinking.....I have done each step none of you have even come close so once you do then you can use it to show my errors till then your opinions are just that.

The communication thing is basic if you want people to know what you mean you have to say it in plain English. That is all I am saying about that.

It is funny I bring easy to find info and even looked for info the would disprove the info I posted.

While the ones that have attacked me have done so on a personal level. Using half truths and misquoting me by taking me out of context.

Really anyone that reads this can figure it out. That is quite a few BTW over 25,000 hits on this so far.
So it would seem that though just a few are posting there are many that are following this.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 674
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 12:22:59 PM

Nobody doubts your ability to Google things, it's your thinking that you are "proving" your point with "facts" that has been refuted time and time again that you WOULD actually understand if you viewed your erroneous conclusions, errors in reasoning and faulty logic under the light of critical thinking (Yes! we know you can Google things about critical thinking, it's actually comprehending how it works that you have yet to display a grasp of).

Let's see, you are clinging to fallacies in order to assign blame to an entire gender, "...wonder what that means?"


Alpha I will make this as short as possible.

You ask me to do critical thinking and I look it up seeing as I am not familiar with the term.
I do so but the rules of critical thinking require you to follow them all.
Yet the side you are on telling me I am wrong has not followed even one of them and still you say I am getting it wrong?

I have said I don't doubt your knowledge however knowledge is only beneficial if you also have the wisdom to apply it fairly.
The one sided way you are applying C T is wrong and everybody can plainly see that.

I will no longer respond to you post other than to call them what they are. A cheap shot at misusing knowledge.
As far as blaming a entire gender You and anyone that reads my posts knows that is just not true. It is a very small number of women and a even smaller number of men I have said that many times.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 675
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/5/2010 12:32:30 PM
In today's reality, woman have far more options to have a career/education and be financially self-sustaining, so they do not have to rely on a man to support them, so if they don't like the situation that can leave. I think the worse part is that people get to comfortable in a relationship and start taking each other granted and don't put enough effort into being romantic and learning about their SO wants and needs, this can start to be toxic and problems start to grow and communication breaksdown leading to divorce. Here is a personal example, had a relationship with a great guy, things were going really good for awhile, then things started to slowly change, such as I became the sole person to cook,clean and do the laundry for both of us, pickup after him, he started spending more time on the couch drinking beer and watching tv then spending time as a couple. When I tried explaining how I felt about the situation and how I would appreciate him doing half the chores since he lived there too, he informed me that was female work even thou I worked fulltime and then he just tuned me out completely. I gave him a chance and he didn't change so I kicked him to the curve and never looked back, best thing I ever did. Thankfully not all men are like this.
Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?