Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 801
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time? Page 33 of 54    (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54)

Har har, but he claims only to be here for the forums. Congrats on getting the hotties there - how old are you?


I am here for the forums. I very nicely told each I was not dating and wished them well in their quest.
BTW I am 43.



Thanks topchef for pointing out the flaws in yawn's cheating scenario. I abhor cheaters and while I think that his ex should have come to him and perhaps speak up; at the same time I know what I did wrong in my relationship and why my ex cheated on me. It doesn't excuse him and I don't think it makes him the better person, but I'm very proud that I was able to, as you say, look within. And yawn is unable to see past what he believes is right. His baggage is not checked and is he is not even trying to get to the baggage claim by introspection.


I know what caused her to cheat by HER own admission it was the money. Maybe you missed that little incentive.
So let me get this right......A 60 something y/o multimillionaire goes after a 37 y/o woman at her job. Where he is her client gets her to have a two year affair by buying her gifts and giving her large amounts of money. Finally offering her $100,000.00 to divorce the husband and come live with him and she accepts this offer it is somehow the husbands fault that he didn't fulfill her needs in the marriage.



I've learned a few things by a few of the men on here (evil and alpha most). Yawn has taught me absolutely nothing of value to bring forward.


So doing research with a open mind and gathering info that experts, most with doctorate degrees have compiled. Have no value?
Yet just looking withing yourself gives you all the answers you need? Again showing the closed minded it is all about me thoughts that cause the problem in the first place.

Now you thanked Topcheif for pointing out flaws in my cheating scenario.

Lets look at what she pointed out.


What part of you giving her a reason to want to bail dont YOU understand. Maybe you were lousy in bed, left your underwear on the floor, drank from the carton in the fridge, were a back seat driver, a cheapskate, unappreciative, overly protective, too demanding, didnt clean under the toilet seat....who knows???? I know you will say you werent any of these things. But it was something...you just are incapable of looking deeply enough into yourself and the relationship to find it. That is why you are doomed to repeat.

The answers to life's mysteries and questions are rarely from outside ourselves, we have to look within. Difficult for most, impossible for some.


Wow what good reasons for cheating of course it was all my fault by leaving my dirty underwear on the floor.....Wait I don't do that well it must have been I was lousy in bed ......but she had three big O's to my one...(I really think this is why she came back wanting to know if I would have her back.....Tell you what I will look inside my self and let you know!!!)

Yes there have been flaws reviled.....However the ones with the real blinders on are doing the revealing!!!!!!
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 802
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 11:40:02 AM

Maybe he was just "always right", and everyone else is wrong and just doesn't understand... kinda like he's been here ... a totally annoying type of person to get into a relationship with, constantly minimizing your feelings, 'always right' about everything.


Well if I am "always right" why pray tell have I said many times on here that a woman had said something that made me think or that I have not heard that point of view before, but it had merit?

I notice that not one of you that oppose my views have taken on the suggestions I have made that would balance the laws. That have in fact done that,and reduced the number of women filing first in the jurisdictions they have been used in.
If my stance is so bad and flawed why does the ideas work in every place they have become law?
 kailania
Joined: 4/10/2008
Msg: 803
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 12:11:20 PM
having problems in your marriage or commited exclusive relationship is Not a reason or excuse to cheat.
confront the person..
try to fix or take care of the problem.
i cannot see why some here are saying it is a reason to cheat if they are not happy within their marriage.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 804
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 12:18:52 PM

Funny, iwhen I found out my spouse cheated, I tried to find out what was lacking in me rather than assume it was "nothing I did". A man or a woman who is happy and satisifed with their marriage & spouse rarely cheats.


Actually I did look within to find the problem!!! Within my check book seems the extra few millions I needed to keep her happy was missing!!!!!!!




Is that what they said, or are you surmising? Anyway, one thing I have noticed in my life is that the least self-aware are the easiest to manipulate.


I really don't know why there is a surge in the ladies contact. I never said it was this thread just that it could be.
Seeing as I am not looking for dates I didn't quiz them on the reason.


Seems to me, if someone didn't care they'd find it easy to just walk away when it became apparent that the other side "just wasn't getting it."


Did you miss the post I made saying this is fun for me? Every time they post back to me is a chance to show the flaws in their thinking and even some contradictions.
I will again say not one has showed flaws in the ideas that I have brought forth that are already being used in some places with success. They have lowered the divorce rate and even when divorce was the only answer, these new ways has balanced the time the parents have with the kids. Keeping either parent from being able to use them to obtain what they want.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 805
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 12:22:53 PM
Actually, areas where there is a default stance of shared custody have had declining numbers of divorces. My speculation is people try harder to make the marriage work when divorce *guarantees* they will lose the kids full time.

But is this thread about break ups in general or divorce?
 SilentInk
Joined: 3/20/2010
Msg: 806
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 12:32:09 PM
Funny, iwhen I found out my spouse cheated, I tried to find out what was lacking in me rather than assume it was "nothing I did". A man or a woman who is happy and satisifed with their marriage & spouse rarely cheats.


Wow. This statement is wrong on so many levels. I understand that's what you did, and of course I am guessing that's due to low self esteem, but why push this ridiculous view on other people? A person that's really that unhappy has two options in my eyes. First being to stay and work it out and communicate. Or the second option which is so obvious is of course to leave, get the hell out, hit the road jack. I feel if someone cheats on you/me they are not worthy of my/your attention anyway so you are better off without them! To look for faults with in yourself though is just not healthy for you, the person who got cheated on, the victim. I take offense to the fact that I'm suppose to feel the blame that my ex cheated.
EDIT: A cheater never gets sympathy from me. I will never be like "awe you cheated because you weren't happy, poor baby". He/she had every chance to walk out, but yet they chose to take the coward's way out filling their life and their SO's life with deception and lies.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 807
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 12:54:03 PM

To look for faults with in yourself though is just not healthy for you, the person who got cheated on, the victim. I take offense to the fact that I'm suppose to feel the blame that my ex cheated.

I disagree with this stance and here's why:
A relationship is a dynamic created between two people where nothing operates in a vacuum. When things end, regardless of the reason, I think it is a very good thing to reflect on the part of it you own. That doesn't excuse a cheater for cheating; people are in difficult situations all the time and many would not "solve" their problem by cheating. Reflection does not allow someone to hide out in victim mode and, to my view, that's a good thing.

My ex cheated on me and I doubt my ex would have done so had I not dropped the ball on problem solving in our relationship. With a different person, one for who cheating wasn't an option, there would have been a different outcome, but that doesn't absolve me of my part of it.

I agree that sometimes the person cheating is doing so regardless of their partner's inputs. I suspect that is rare and falls more into an exception. Even so, how the heck does one reach the conclusion that they did their best and did all they could do without reflecting on it?

I am suspicious of people that do not examine their lives... seems to me there is a much greater chance of life surprising them again in the future by unexpectedly jumping up and biting them in the butt again.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 808
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 2:09:12 PM

Actually, areas where there is a default stance of shared custody have had declining numbers of divorces. My speculation is people try harder to make the marriage work when divorce *guarantees* they will lose the kids full time.


I agree!!! Seeing as history has been that the woman gets the kids. The new laws are changing that fact, joint custody and nesting are balancing the time and money that both parents have to give. Even this balance has dropped the rates.

I wonder what the outcome would be if the pendulum swung the other way and men was the parent that got the kids at the same rate that the women do today?


But is this thread about break ups in general or divorce?


It is about relationships which marriages are.

Slientink wrote:

Wow. This statement is wrong on so many levels. I understand that's what you did, and of course I am guessing that's due to low self esteem, but why push this ridiculous view on other people? A person that's really that unhappy has two options in my eyes. First being to stay and work it out and communicate. Or the second option which is so obvious is of course to leave, get the hell out, hit the road jack. I feel if someone cheats on you/me they are not worthy of my/your attention anyway so you are better off without them! To look for faults with in yourself though is just not healthy for you, the person who got cheated on, the victim. I take offense to the fact that I'm suppose to feel the blame that my ex cheated.
EDIT: A cheater never gets sympathy from me. I will never be like "awe you cheated because you weren't happy, poor baby". He/she had every chance to walk out, but yet they chose to take the coward's way out filling their life and their SO's life with deception and lies.


I agree the thought that one partner commits a clearly egregious act and it being the automatic fault of the other is just ridiculous!!!

It'sMargo wrote:

I disagree with this stance and here's why:
A relationship is a dynamic created between two people where nothing operates in a vacuum. When things end, regardless of the reason, I think it is a very good thing to reflect on the part of it you own. That doesn't excuse a cheater for cheating; people are in difficult situations all the time and many would not "solve" their problem by cheating. Reflection does not allow someone to hide out in victim mode and, to my view, that's a good thing.

My ex cheated on me and I doubt my ex would have done so had I not dropped the ball on problem solving in our relationship. With a different person, one for who cheating wasn't an option, there would have been a different outcome, but that doesn't absolve me of my part of it.


While looking at the short comings one has is a good thing, doing so to the point of putting the blame on yourself of others actions is insane.


I am suspicious of people that do not examine their lives... seems to me there is a much greater chance of life surprising them again in the future by unexpectedly jumping up and biting them in the butt again.


Yes I agree!!! Now if you are examining your life, would it not be prudent to examine all the factors? By limiting the exam to yourself , you close off some good information.

Though you no one can change another's free will you can learn from their actions, that will let you see red flags in the future.

Jinx wrote:


According to some limited data, that may be true.
Note the data is about divorces, not filings.
And only applies to marriages with children present, which would be roughly half of divorces.
Endless yammering about a fraction of breakups in this thread, as if they provide all the answers we could need to the question at hand.


Actually the filings went down as well. And specifically the number of women that filed went down.


My speculation, as I noted pages ago, is that states that have adopted a presumption of shared custody have also adopted mandatory mediation.
Amazing what dragging people - who were previously unwilling to admit to/discuss/attempt to resolve issues - to a series of sessions of guided communication with a professional can do. Who da thunk?


Yes mediation is a good idea. Which kinda goes against the "just look within yourself crowd"!


BREAK UPS.


Of which divorce is!!!
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 809
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 2:21:39 PM

While looking at the short comings one has is a good thing, doing so to the point of putting the blame on yourself of others actions is insane.

You're not getting it.

Yes mediation is a good idea. Which kinda goes against the "just look within yourself crowd"!

Still not getting it.

Yes I agree!!! Now if you are examining your life, would it not be prudent to examine all the factors? By limiting the exam to yourself , you close off some good information.

To examine only oneself is as blind as only casting blame on ones partner. Or as blind as assuming one person initiating a break up means they are automatically the one at fault, or that their actions operated in a vacuum that did not consider the other persons actions/beliefs/values/way-of-being.

It's nice to live in a black and white world where Me=good/right/innocent and Other=bad/wrong/at fault but I, for one, haven't found that's how the real world operates.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 810
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 2:52:05 PM

You're not getting it.

So I have been told. However I do get it but disagree with the idea that a cheater is created by the other partners actions.


Still not getting it.

Been told that too! But which is the answer just looking within yourself or mediation so both have to look at all the reasons the relationship is in trouble?


To examine only oneself is as blind as only casting blame on ones partner. Or as blind as assuming one person initiating a break up means they are automatically the one at fault, or that their actions operated in a vacuum that did not consider the other persons actions/beliefs/values/way-of-being.

It's nice to live in a black and white world where Me=good/right/innocent and Other=bad/wrong/at fault but I, for one, haven't found that's how the real world operates.


I don't believe I have said it automatically makes one at fault. Only that the disparity in the numbers as well as the extensive studies and the new laws show some women do this.

I have just called for a equality and have been called misogynistic. I wonder if the problem here is more one of misandry?


It's nice to live in a black and white world where Me=good/right/innocent and Other=bad/wrong/at fault but I, for one, haven't found that's how the real world operates.


Go back and reread my post I have said many times that I have faults I am human of course I have faults.
However I refuse to believe that anyone deserves to be cheated on in any relationship!!!
 SilentInk
Joined: 3/20/2010
Msg: 811
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 3:13:59 PM

It's nice to live in a black and white world where Me=good/right/innocent and Other=bad/wrong/at fault but I, for one, haven't found that's how the real world operates.


That's all fine and dandy. Look at it like this both people may be good/right/innocent...or both people involved may be bad/wrong/at fault...and both of those people have a way out. Yes it's that simple, saying you aren't happy and moving on. But when one of the two people chooses the deceiving/dishonest way, and chooses to creep around behind his/hers SO's back; that person (who cheated) automatically becomes the bad/wrong/at fault in my eyes. I don't care how unhappy you are, or how many faults your SO has, cheating is never the answer. A cheater is being dishonest to the person who cares for him/her, but most importantly to themselves.
 *topchef*
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 812
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 4:16:47 PM
EXAMPLE!

A couple has been married for 5 years. Since year 3, sexual engagement has declined by 50% month over month to the point where, despite the husbands romantic overtures, the wife only accepts his sexual advances every 6 or 8 months. He tries to uncover the reasons, numerous discussions, no progress. He cheats, he is morally wrong to do so. He has broken the vows, but she is partly responsible for his cheating.

This is what people are trying to say....and even though this is an obvious example, that anyone with half a brain can figure out....to some degree, each person in the relationship has to bear some of the responsibility.

If all was wonderful in paradise and she had respect for the relationship otherwise, the cash wouldnt have done it. Unless you are saying your wife was a whore. No respect for the relationship = no respect for the spouse. Has to be a reason for that. Only you and she know.

At the very least...you picked her, at least take responsibility for that. lol
 forums1
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 813
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 7:08:36 PM

My ex cheated on me and I doubt my ex would have done so had I not dropped the ball on problem solving in our relationship. With a different person, one for who cheating wasn't an option, there would have been a different outcome, but that doesn't absolve me of my part of it.

I agree that sometimes the person cheating is doing so regardless of their partner's inputs. I suspect that is rare and falls more into an exception. Even so, how the heck does one reach the conclusion that they did their best and did all they could do without reflecting on it?

I am suspicious of people that do not examine their lives... seems to me there is a much greater chance of life surprising them again in the future by unexpectedly jumping up and biting them in the butt again.


Much to be said to that, Margo. I did the same years ago. She moved in with me (I owned, she didn't), and - akin to what MJ says about 'money', immediately the house was 'too small' and "we" needed a bigger place. Um, sure, its a house, I'm not 'tied' to it, but I was paying the mortgage and all the bills (mistake#1, not talking finances *before* then - and honestly being raised by parents where dad was the 'breadwinner/provider' and mom was the homemaker, it was a 'role' I assumed on myself, for bad or good)... but in her mind "we" needed a bigger house, but *I* was expected to pay, and when I suggested that *I* couldn't afford it, but *we* could... "Oh, forget it then". In a way it made me "feel like a failure" (per my parental role-models), but I couldn't express that.

A few months later she was majorly stressed out "over her new a**hole boss", and when I came home and simply wanted to kiss her on the cheek and ask "how was your day?", I got "don't touch me! go away!"... now, all I heard from her was "the boss" (blah blah), and I tried to listen, then I tried to offer suggestions (WRONG! damn venutians! :laugh), but looking back it really (I think) stemmed from her seeing *me* as unable to provide (ie, $$ there, MJ, so I can relate to it). However, not knowing that, and having our love life deteriorate to virtually nothing (sex twice in 6mo's?), by then *I* had withdrawn myself. I tried, to the best of my abilities at the time - and I "think" I have better "tools" now (even if it wound up being ending it and save my own heartache of being cheated on in the end).

Honestly, MJ, I hear you "paid for a lawn service", "paid for a maid", etc... but in many ways those can also be "distancing" things - ie, rather than cleaning, or working in the yard, *you* doing them, just "fluffing them off on someone you pay to do it for you". Rather than say, "where do you want the flower garden? I'll go buy some belgium block and rent a rototiller, and spend a weekend prepping it for you." (vs. "I'll fork out some money to have someone do it, while I go do other things - for myself"). Only postulating, my ex would've loved for me to hire someone to do that, but I was barely keeping afloat as it was, while her paycheck (and we made about the same) went for things she wanted (and she could have easily paid for it herself - but then, it wouldn't have shown *my* willingness to do it would it?).

Much of it was communication skills - and I'll be honest, both of ours sucked. :rollseyes: Once that "honeymoon" phase was over, that came out in spades. And I still make no claims to being a "great communicator" - better than I was for sure, but certainly not perfect. I learned that by reflecting on that relationship after, even though she cheated on me, I *know* that I played a part in it.

So, like Margo, I'm suspicious of someone who says "she cheated, so its *all* her fault", because like her I think that is rarely the case. Not to 'defend' cheating, I think its wrong and one should leave the relationship rather than cheat, but the breakdown that leads to either inevitably happens *long* before the cheating (or ending) happens.

And no, you can't "make" someone happy - my ex is a miserable piece of work, last time I talked to her (2yrs ago or so) she'd just gotten out of a week in the hospital psych ward... that should tell you something. Still doesn't make it "all her fault", because I'm the one who ignored all those 'warning signs' along the way...
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 814
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 7:48:38 PM
^^ Would you say that is a normal occurrence or an exceptional one?

So, yeah, there are no absolutes in life. I'd also suggest that discovering dealbreakers early in dating is a bit different than endings in a LTR.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 815
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 8:03:35 PM

A couple has been married for 5 years. Since year 3, sexual engagement has declined by 50% month over month to the point where, despite the husbands romantic overtures, the wife only accepts his sexual advances every 6 or 8 months. He tries to uncover the reasons, numerous discussions, no progress. He cheats, he is morally wrong to do so. He has broken the vows, but she is partly responsible for his cheating.


You mean there are men out there that try to communicate? That is funny because many of your gender on here have said that is impossible!!!!...lol


This is what people are trying to say....and even though this is an obvious example, that anyone with half a brain can figure out....to some degree, each person in the relationship has to bear some of the responsibility.


I think I have heard this from somewhere before......Oh yeah I remember I have been saying this all along!!!!


If all was wonderful in paradise and she had respect for the relationship otherwise, the cash wouldnt have done it. Unless you are saying your wife was a whore. No respect for the relationship = no respect for the spouse. Has to be a reason for that. Only you and she know.


What would you call a women that gets a check to leave her husband? Did you miss the part where SHE admitted it was just the money? Wanting me to take her trashy self back!!!


At the very least...you picked her, at least take responsibility for that. lol


While I did pick her she was not the same person then, as she was when she left.
She admitted her job of accounting made her get dollar signs in her eyes and missed how I treated her. It seems when this man "bought her"(her words) he really thought he owned her.......And she doesn't like being treated like property!!!! Well what the heck did she expect?!?!?!?!?

Topchef I do understand what you are saying and in most cases you would be correct, but there are some where one or the other just kills the relationship on their own.

Thanks for the few that have came in and added some sanity to this thread.
 *topchef*
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 816
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 8:23:17 PM

Oh yeah I remember I have been saying this all along!!!!


Who are you saying this to? Everyone but yourself, it seems.

I'm not saying you dont have good reason for ending the marriage, I likely would have done the same thing...however....(insert broken record here)



Thanks for the few that have came in and added some sanity to this thread.


I am assuming you are referring to the few that shared your opinion. Kinda makes ya wonder, huh?
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 817
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 9:27:59 PM

Who are you saying this to? Everyone but yourself, it seems.


Yeah , the phrase: Practice what you preach comes to mind...

The whole premise of women are responsible for most initiations, because there is something inherently wrong with them, and they must be stopped, is just offensive...

Changing the court system to be more fair is already in place where I live...that is a realistic goal , and doesn't assign blame to one gender or the other...but, it still really only addresses marriages with children...which are only about half of them...and not the non marriage ones...

I maintain that if more women actually initiate the break ups, which may be true, though hard to prove statistically..it's more about the differences in men and women and how they process/handle discontent/what they find important..than any kind of universal flaw in a whole gender...either gender...

Giving women rights changed their ability to get a divorce...not no faults...no faults were put into place for both genders,,,which primarily, financially, work better for both, but , especially the party with more to lose financially...which , though changing, still tends to be more men than women..

I, and most of the women I know...didn't get break up with anyone, or divorce anyone just because they could, or because they thought they'd be better off financially...

You can't take the right to break up or divorce away from women or men, for that matter...because you don't agree with why they are doing it...everyone is free to make their own mistakes or not...

You can' t police this kind of moral behavior...as tempting as some seem to think it is....
 mr.evil
Joined: 11/14/2009
Msg: 818
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/10/2010 10:21:36 PM
Gawd, don't you people have lives? How can you keep this going?

I officially left the thread some 10 pages or more back. BUT I've followed off and on. I see that many didn't understand what my rants were about.

While I wasn't aware I was following some particular rule or law, what Alpha says is about spot on. I posted the diatribes to see who among the men would follow, and focus all the anger from the women on me, which worked in both cases. THEN, with a few posts, sanity followed, albeit for only 2 or 3 pages, before some nitwit or other poured more gasoline on the fire, and the whole thing went to sh1t again.

I did not go back on see which of my posts were removed, nor which ones stayed.

I would hope the ones that sounded sane about 10 to 15 pages back stayed, as they are actually how I view the situation, not all that different than my first post, somewhere around page 10.

Good luck, goodbye, this is your sh1t storm and not mine.

Evil out.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 819
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/11/2010 12:00:37 AM


Yeah , the phrase: Practice what you preach comes to mind...

The whole premise of women are responsible for most initiations, because there is something inherently wrong with them, and they must be stopped, is just offensive...


When did I ever say that?
I have you to know I am helping a lady right now that got shafted in her divorce two years ago, to get what she should have then.
She has given me permission to talk about her divorce.

Her ex didn't have anything going into the marriage and is now in the house they built with her paying for half the payment while she and the three kids stay in a apartment with only $150.00 a month child support.

She is on POF and has followed this thread laughing at how far off base most of you are about me.

You paint me as a man taking away a womans right to get a divorce when the truth is I have just proposed measures to ensure equality for both genders.


Changing the court system to be more fair is already in place where I live...that is a realistic goal , and doesn't assign blame to one gender or the other...but, it still really only addresses marriages with children...which are only about half of them...and not the non marriage ones...


Ok the no fault waiting period like they have in Europe will help with or without children. In that it would protect either gender from a blindsided divorce.
It would not stop anyone man or woman from getting one. It would allow a couple that both agree on the details of the split to have their divorce in as quickly as a month.
If they can't agree they have 5-7 years to work out the details. Before the court gets involved.

Most jurisdictions in the us don't have joint custody or nesting as law. In these the woman normally get sole custody and the father is at her mercy on seeing his children. Some even require the man to maintain the martial home till the kids are at least 18.

Joint custody and nesting removes this type of advantage for women allowing both parents equal access to the kids and requires each adult to support their own home.
Sharing the cost of rearing the kids equally also.



I, and most of the women I know...didn't get break up with anyone, or divorce anyone just because they could, or because they thought they'd be better off financially...


If this is the case then why would it matter if the field was leveled? All the ideas I have stated are gender neutral and no ones right to divorce is impeded.
So why are you so against them? Also why do you say I am taking anyone rights away?
No fault is still there and no blame is assigned by the court. I see it helping the flow of cases as with a 5-7 year waiting period the people involved would most likely come to an agreement just to speed things up!


You can't take the right to break up or divorce away from women or men, for that matter...because you don't agree with why they are doing it...everyone is free to make their own mistakes or not...

You can' t police this kind of moral behavior...as tempting as some seem to think it is....


Not trying to police morality just would like to see the advantages taken away so both genders go into the process equally.
Zangie I would welcome your opinion on how any of these ideas would restrict either gender from getting a divorce. However please take on the points I have made, because you trying to say I am advocating taking away the rights of women is just not true.

Dawn



And before any of you jump in with comments about me being sycophantic, I'll point out that Mr. Yawn is a "godly" guy who would never in a million years be interested in my atheist/heathen, slutty self, so blah, blah, blah. To me, he's a bit over the top, because of his history, but the posse bearing down upon him is WAY more over the top, because of their history.


Thank you Dawn. While I do have a Relationship with God a lot of my friends don't and a couple are atheists. So I think a cup of coffee with you would be delightful. I promise not to try to convert you!!!....lol
Anyway in the bedroom I am as slutty as they come!!!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 820
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/11/2010 8:59:53 PM
I have avoided this thread for many of the same reasons as evil; it has gotten ridiculous! I do, however, feel compelled to comment in regards to forcing anyone to remain in a marriage they no longer wish to be in.


<div class="quote">Ok the no fault waiting period like they have in Europe will help with or without children. In that it would protect either gender from a blindsided divorce.
It would not stop anyone man or woman from getting one. It would allow a couple that both agree on the details of the split to have their divorce in as quickly as a month.
If they can't agree they have 5-7 years to work out the details. Before the court gets involved.
<div class="quote">

I imagine it depends upon where you live, to some degree, but, if you've ever been to divorce court, the basis is that two people come to court with an agreement in place. If you can't agree, it's not as if there is an immediate trial; you are told to attempt to come to agreement, over & over again, each time incurring costs. The end result, more often than not, is that one party (usually the one with the least to spend on an attorney) gives in. Although I admit to feeling a bit "victimized" by the system, I firmly believe that it is not up to the court to monitor the actions, reactions, or ability to reason between partners who entered into a marriage contract. While the 5-7 year period at least saves money for the involved parties, it also forces someone to remain in a situation that could be dangerous, and is at the very least, detrimental to their emotional well being, in many cases.


<div class="quote">Most jurisdictions in the us don't have joint custody or nesting as law. In these the woman normally get sole custody and the father is at her mercy on seeing his children. Some even require the man to maintain the martial home till the kids are at least 18.

Joint custody and nesting removes this type of advantage for women allowing both parents equal access to the kids and requires each adult to support their own home.
Sharing the cost of rearing the kids equally also.

Custody is an issue that can be addressed outside of divorce court. Say what you will about family court, I'll even agree that, at the inception of an action it tends to favor the woman, but the truth is, the court listens equally to each side at the determined hearing. Argue all you want, but I have been there as often as many, if not most, of you. Interesting is your statement of access to children, yet support only of one's "home", as the cost of rearing one's children includes putting a roof over their heads. I do not wish to engage in yet another gender war, but I do see evidence that men, more than women, refuse to allow for the fact that the percentage of income applicable to child rearing remains fairly reasonable, and an accurate measurement. Court determined amounts for cs seem reasonable, if one takes into account only the percentage of income allotted specifically for the care of children. You can argue all you want, but I know for a fact that I spend more than 29% of my gross income on expenses directly related to my children, this 29% being the amount of my ex's income determined by the court as payable for cs. For the vast majority, the income of the cp isn't less than prior to the divorce, and divorce itself often results in the cp having to either go out to work, or earn more, in order to provide for their children.

While I certainly agree that both parents should have equal access to their children, to state that women who have sole custody, or better yet, 24/7 custody is merely an "advantage", when it is also involves sacrifice, is misleading. Just as often it is the non cp who chooses not to have contact. As much as I love my kids, I have envied those who have every other weekend free (hell, once a month would be like a vacation!). The courts are not the sole determining factor, for the majority.

In short, forcing the masses to remain in a marriage for the (I daresay) vast minority who are "blindsided" would be to do a disservice to both men & women, not to mention their children. Truth is, most who claim who to be blindsided actually chose to close their eyes to the reality presented before them, each & every day. Punishment of every person wishing to dissolve a marriage that adversely affects their lives, in the name of fairness to a few doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

The only people I know who claim to have been "blindsided", have been "blindsided" over & over again. Perhaps they are the problem. In any case, it is not the responsibility of the court system to protect them. There are predators, and there are easy prey. Tread carefully.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 821
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/12/2010 8:10:33 AM
CS=Child Support
CP=Custodial Parent
NCP=Non Custodial Parent


I imagine it depends upon where you live, to some degree, but, if you've ever been to divorce court, the basis is that two people come to court with an agreement in place. If you can't agree, it's not as if there is an immediate trial; you are told to attempt to come to agreement, over & over again, each time incurring costs. The end result, more often than not, is that one party (usually the one with the least to spend on an attorney) gives in. Although I admit to feeling a bit "victimized" by the system, I firmly believe that it is not up to the court to monitor the actions, reactions, or ability to reason between partners who entered into a marriage contract. While the 5-7 year period at least saves money for the involved parties, it also forces someone to remain in a situation that could be dangerous, and is at the very least, detrimental to their emotional well being, in many cases.


No one is forced to stay any where. The fact is to start the 5-7 year waiting period you have to be separated. The abuse laws that are crafted to mostly protect women would keep any one safe in a dangerous situation.
So as you say this would help the one with the least amount of money the most which many on here have said is the women.


Custody is an issue that can be addressed outside of divorce court. Say what you will about family court, I'll even agree that, at the inception of an action it tends to favor the woman, but the truth is, the court listens equally to each side at the determined hearing. Argue all you want, but I have been there as often as many, if not most, of you. Interesting is your statement of access to children, yet support only of one's "home", as the cost of rearing one's children includes putting a roof over their heads. I do not wish to engage in yet another gender war, but I do see evidence that men, more than women, refuse to allow for the fact that the percentage of income applicable to child rearing remains fairly reasonable, and an accurate measurement.


Both adults have to have somewhere to live. If joint custody or nesting is used each parent is responsible for providing a home while the kids are with them. As well as splitting the cost of health care and any other cost incurred in raising the children. the current system forces the NCP to pay for a roof over the CPs head, a kind of backdoor alimony. As far as being reasonable and fair, I will show that is not true below.


Court determined amounts for cs seem reasonable, if one takes into account only the percentage of income allotted specifically for the care of children. You can argue all you want, but I know for a fact that I spend more than 29% of my gross income on expenses directly related to my children, this 29% being the amount of my ex's income determined by the court as payable for cs. For the vast majority, the income of the cp isn't less than prior to the divorce, and divorce itself often results in the cp having to either go out to work, or earn more, in order to provide for their children.


In GA where I was living during both my marriages the cost of CS for one child of a NCP making $4000.00 gross is $860.00 per month average.
The NCP is also responsible for ALL health insurance and any bills said insurance doesn't cover. So as you can see the NCP is responsible for far more that 29% of their income. Now lets see what happens when there are two children. CS only goes up $140.00 a month,to a average of $1020.00. Clearly showing the cost of the first child shows a substantial amount for providing a home, for not only the child but the CP as well.
Both parents have to have a place to live, why should either have to pay a percentage of that for the other?
In joint custody each parent is responsible for half of everything including a home for themselves and the children.
With women getting the children over 90% of the time the current system favors them heavily.


While I certainly agree that both parents should have equal access to their children, to state that women who have sole custody, or better yet, 24/7 custody is merely an "advantage", when it is also involves sacrifice, is misleading. Just as often it is the non cp who chooses not to have contact. As much as I love my kids, I have envied those who have every other weekend free (hell, once a month would be like a vacation!). The courts are not the sole determining factor, for the majority.


I pointed out the advantages above. There is standard custody guidelines in all states if that was changed to joint custody with each parent sharing everything it would level the field.
As you said each parent would have a chance to have the "me" time they desire. So if this time away from the kids is as welcome as you say, why would anyone have a objection to the joint custody?


In short, forcing the masses to remain in a marriage for the (I daresay) vast minority who are "blindsided" would be to do a disservice to both men & women, not to mention their children. Truth is, most who claim who to be blindsided actually chose to close their eyes to the reality presented before them, each & every day. Punishment of every person wishing to dissolve a marriage that adversely affects their lives, in the name of fairness to a few doesn't sound like a good idea to me.


Again I say NO ONE would be FORCED to stay in a marriage they don't want to be in. However it would take any advantage the system now gives to the CP. No-fault is not changed only the way the cost of raising the children.
In a case with no children the 5-7 year waiting period would assure the time to work out a agreement between the parties involved.
Negating the high cost of having the courts do it.
Again an advantage to the one with the least amount of cash to spend on attorneys. Reducing the cost of divorce for both parties.
Looks like a win/win to me.


The only people I know who claim to have been "blindsided", have been "blindsided" over & over again. Perhaps they are the problem. In any case, it is not the responsibility of the court system to protect them. There are predators, and there are easy prey. Tread carefully.


This has not been my experience the ones doing the blindsiding are the ones, I have seen do this over and over.
This is just one of the problems the joint custody and the waiting period would address.

I do not wish a gender war either however anyone saying the current system is not loaded in the favor of the CP which over 90% of the time is women, is just not being realistic.
Also the current no-fault laws that do force a speedy divorce without spending a large amount of money on both sides are not doing a good job of being fair.
Any attorney will tell you the one that strikes first has a advantage.
One of the lawyers that is a friend of mine says "strike first strike hard"

Thank you for the reasonable statements and questions while I do not see eye to eye with you.
You have been polite in your response.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 822
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/12/2010 9:12:53 AM

Both adults have to have somewhere to live. If joint custody or nesting is used each parent is responsible for providing a home while the kids are with them. As well as splitting the cost of health care and any other cost incurred in raising the children. .

This nesting places an additional financial burden on both parents, compared to the current system. If one averages a residence at $1000 per month (yeah, cheap but easy), then a two-home custody arrangement costs both parents $2000 (or $1000 each); a three-house arrangement will cost them $3000 (or $1500 each). As well, what do the parents do in terms of groceries during their residence or non-residence weeks? Does the departing parent take their unused groceries with them, and the arriving parent bring in their groceries in order to keep it "fair"? If not, how do they "fairly" divide the cost of groceries? What about clothing/toys/etc for the child or children? What if one parent is so financially strapped because of this added expense that they can't afford to "share" the costs of health and dental? Will the richer parent refuse to pay for the child's health care because they'd have to pay the whole shot? Given that it often takes two entire paychecks to maintain a single household, it seems to me possible that neither of the parents might end up unable to pay for the kids' health care. That happens now, I believe, even with two-working-parents and one household.


the current system forces the NCP to pay for a roof over the CPs head, a kind of backdoor alimony

No, it forces the NCP to pay for a PORTION of a roof over the CHILD's head. This is where many men lose all sense of perspective - as if somehow the female CP needs to live in abject poverty, wear sackcloth and injest only bread and water to PROVE the money paid by the NCP is being spent only on the child. The nesting arrangement that you think is so 'fair' in terms of finances actually means that each parent is paying more towards the other parent having a roof over their head (albeit part-time) then the current system does.

I've no idea what kind of emotional benefits nesting is supposed to provide the kids, but I think this is a rather extreme solution. Kids are pretty resilient and while they shouldn't suffer hardship by being unreasonably or maliciously deprived of either parent or reasonable financial support from both, neither do they need to be protected from every bump in the road. Given that parents are also lost due to death, that homes are lost even when parents do not divorce, it seems to me that part of kids' learning to handle life means also learning to handle adversity. I think the most important aspect would be that the parents behave reasonably: CP does not use visitation or access to "control" or "punish" the NCP and the NCP does not begrudge financial contribution, or use it to "punish" or "control" the CP. Supportive, reasonable and loving parents are more important, imo, than where kids actually live. Bitter, angry & bickering, backstabbing parents are a problem, whether kids shuffle between them or they shuffle in and out of the kids' house.
 Rythmn
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 823
view profile
History
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/12/2010 10:25:45 AM
not sure the stat is accurate and as mentioned who files is not who asked for divorce "first" or who is cheating, etc. speaking for myself as a woman, my first husband cheated after years of being there for him in his alcoholic periodic stupors. he asked, i filed. he came to my second wedding with the woman he cheated with and their child that was conceived while i was married. they lead a life, i would never want and he lives alone while still "married" to her. go figure.

the second time around, i put up with total insanity the second five years of my marriage. i even had witnesses to make sure i was not the crazy one. i managed to hang on a bit more for my adopted kids. we all dealt with his issues in therapy. i doubt many men would hang on the way i did, let alone with three post trauma kids from foster care. i doubt many people would, irrespective of gender. i have no guilt. hubby number two comes with the new wife to visit. my kids are out on their own, but my house is the central meeting place. she has no clue. a lot goes on in secret for him. i hope he has changed. i had no clue when he married me. his first wife sure did. after he moved, i found papers between them that would scare the clothes off your back.

everyone has a story. most are legitimate and not frivolous. i am beginning to think a lot has to do with "luck", not a he or she war about which sex is right or better or more noble. trick is to take what you learned and grow from it, rather than using it as an excuse not to go forward, let alone citing faultily derived stats.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 824
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/12/2010 10:42:32 AM

how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?



Because most men have learned that many seemingly sane women are only one "I don't want to see you anymore." away from a restraining order.


It's just not worth the gamble.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 825
how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?
Posted: 5/12/2010 10:51:07 AM

This nesting places an additional financial burden on both parents, compared to the current system. If one averages a residence at $1000 per month (yeah, cheap but easy), then a two-home custody arrangement costs both parents $2000 (or $1000 each); a three-house arrangement will cost them $3000 (or $1500 each).


I agree. However the current law requires only the NCP to have this burden through the much higher amount of CS on the first child, why shouldn't it be shared by both?


As well, what do the parents do in terms of groceries during their residence or non-residence weeks? Does the departing parent take their unused groceries with them, and the arriving parent bring in their groceries in order to keep it "fair"? If not, how do they "fairly" divide the cost of groceries?


Just like you would at any house as the groceries are used the parent there at the time replaces them.


What about clothing/toys/etc for the child or children?


I am sure the child will be asking for clothing/toys/ect from both.


What if one parent is so financially strapped because of this added expense that they can't afford to "share" the costs of health and dental? Will the richer parent refuse to pay for the child's health care because they'd have to pay the whole shot? Given that it often takes two entire paychecks to maintain a single household, it seems to me possible that neither of the parents might end up unable to pay for the kids' health care. That happens now, I believe, even with two-working-parents and one household.


Each parent is equally responsible for bringing the child into the world why should one take all the burden of raising them?
Both had the same chance to use birth control and plan the children. Both have the same chance at education and having a good paying job.
The fact that both would have a hard time doing this is a perfect example of how hard it is in a NCP. Thus the advantage to the CP.


No, it forces the NCP to pay for a PORTION of a roof over the CHILD's head. This is where many men lose all sense of perspective - as if somehow the female CP needs to live in abject poverty, wear sackcloth and injest only bread and water to PROVE the money paid by the NCP is being spent only on the child.


I disagree if the standard was joint custody the cost is shared by both, each choosing a home they can afford.
Surely you are not saying in this day and age the woman needs a man to support her.
I am sure the female can get a job to provide a suitable home for her and her children.
Why should the standard be the female get to be the CP, when joint custody would be equally fair for both parents and the children. The balance of time between the parents would show the children that both parents love them and have a interest in their lives.
Not to mention that the CP would not be able to use the children as a weapon. Which I have seen before.


The nesting arrangement that you think is so 'fair' in terms of finances actually means that each parent is paying more towards the other parent having a roof over their head (albeit part-time) then the current system does.


No it just takes all the responsibility off the NCP. Both have the burden, not just one person.
I do think joint custody is the better of the two ideas. It would allow the sale of the martial home. With the equity split however the former couple decides. Or if it belonged to one of them before marriage then the other finds a new place to stay and joint custody begins.


I've no idea what kind of emotional benefits nesting is supposed to provide the kids, but I think this is a rather extreme solution. Kids are pretty resilient and while they shouldn't suffer hardship by being unreasonably or maliciously deprived of either parent or reasonable financial support from both, neither do they need to be protected from every bump in the road. Given that parents are also lost due to death, that homes are lost even when parents do not divorce, it seems to me that part of kids' learning to handle life means also learning to handle adversity. I think the most important aspect would be that the parents behave reasonably: CP does not use visitation or access to "control" or "punish" the NCP and the NCP does not begrudge financial contribution, or use it to "punish" or "control" the CP. Supportive, reasonable and loving parents are more important, imo, than where kids actually live. Bitter, angry & bickering, backstabbing parents are a problem, whether kids shuffle between them or they shuffle in and out of the kids' house.


As I said joint seems to be the best way.
What better way of keeping checks and balances than each having equal custody and responsibility?
Neither would have the power to hold anything over the others head.
So the above goal you set down, would be much easier to obtain when neither parent had sole custody.

I really don't see the problem with these ideas, they are much more gender neutral than the system that is now in effect in most jurisdictions.
A little common scene would go a long way in solving the small problems that would arise.
Surly there would be some kind of problems in a family that stays together, That they would have to address.

I have shown I am not looking for special treatment for either sex just equal treatment for both.
Why should either parent have sole custody? Neither can have a baby by themselves that is for sure.
Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > how come women initiate the breakup 80% of the time?