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 AUTHOR
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 394
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IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?Page 8 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)

That must suck to know that a man had to be that "desperate" to be with her...taking what was left I guess afterall.

No one ever heard of a woman who pitied the poor fellow whose honest passion she had found it expedient to spurn. On the contrary, women take delight in such clownish agonies, and exhibit them proudly, and boast about them to others.

The "desperation card" is part of the feminist program to criminalize as much normal male behavior as possible. "Accusing people of depraved behavior can be the first step in viewing them as moral inferiors and denying them basic human rights." (Sarah Hrdy)

If a man accuses you of something, it is because he believes it to be true. But, women often use accusations such as the "desperation card" in an instrumental manner, because trying to disprove the accusation will manipulate the man into exactly the kind of behavior she wants from him.

I'm sure one of the reasons so many women spend Saturday nights alone wondering where all the good (or real) men are is because many men find it perfectly easy not to be "desperate" either, contrary to the Victorian redux about men-as-beasts who are incapable of not thinking with the wrong head.
 beatriceismydog
Joined: 1/10/2010
Msg: 395
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 4:25:00 AM
It is desperate for a woman to chase a man. It always works better when a man shows interest and it is a woman's role to be receptive or not to that attention. I'm not into shyness in men. I believe women are very unhappy with taking over the male dominant role and men become chicks now. It is natural for men if they know they don't have to work at anything to sit back and do NOTHING.
 just4- 4ums
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 397
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 7:52:07 AM
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 10:09:28 AM
If she has given a readable hint that she likes me, and I haven't asked her out already, that means I'm not interested.

Problem is that women refuse to give the slightest hint that they are interested. And don't go talking about eye contact or little smiles. Sorry, call me blind but I can't separate normal eye contact from 'call me up big boy' eye contact. That only works on player who see absolutely everything as a sign that women want to bang them.

............................................................................................................................. HALLALUJAH BROTHER !!!
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 400
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 8:39:58 AM
Yesterday I watched a panel of men on "Dr Phil" (I know some of you probably hate that) tell a woman who was aggressive in going after men, that she appeared too desperate. They also said that if a woman sleeps with them right away they won't date her. This is not the first time men have been asked what they think of an aggressive woman. The double standard still exists and men telling women they like a woman to pursue them leads me to ask - for what? Sex? or an LTR? You look down on women that are too easy. Time and again here on the forums we read about a woman who really likes a man, she sleeps with him, he disappears. We know what the end result is when a woman invests too much upfront.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 401
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 9:21:48 AM

Wrong again. That is an entirely different kettle of fish. If you had read some of our posts in other threads you would know this. Some men state they email 10 different women a day. WHY?

That's exactly it - why DO men feel they HAVE to do this? I just responded to a poster in another thread who said he felt forced to contact women here a certain way. I told him he wasn't being forced to do anything, including sign up here, or seek women in general.

Yes, we understand the need for love etc., but WHY do men seek this out more than women? I seriously want to explore this?

Actually the need for love FROM AN SO, I don't get either - it's nice to have, but love comes in a lot of forms, and some people act like romantic love is the only thing of value, and nothing else in life matters. I find that a bit extreme. Having said that - I don't believe anyone's really explained why men seem to seek it out more than women do generally.

Have women changed so that we don't "need" at the same level as men? I can't believe that, but. Is it plain socialization that makes men do it since most of us were shown at a young age that men seek out women first? If so, why isn't this changing? Why don't men leave the women alone and let women contact them? Especially the ones who complain about it? For me, I send out emails and receive them, to me that's the best way to meet someone. Are the men who stats this constant emailing putting all their eggs in the OLD method and not pursuing other avenues? Do women handle the lack of a partner better than men? If women were more used to contacting men, would we then see women having the same complaints? As WIP, why the constant search for "a woman", rather than just choosing to date if/when a woman comes along that does it for you?

I won't hold my breath for a response from men about any of this. Seems they either don't know, don't get the question for the 100th time (doubtful) or do but don't want to admit whatever the answer is (at least personally).

My curiosity is not about bashing anyone nor trying to make men look bad. Nobody has ever really addressed this subject in a general way for WIP and myself, hence the reason we push it.

Agreed.
 just4- 4ums
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 403
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 9:39:35 AM
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN


You couldn't tell from watching two looser chicks fighting over an even bigger looser dude on the Jerry Springer show!
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 404
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History
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 9:54:07 AM

Yesterday I watched a panel of men on "Dr Phil"...

...tell his female audience what they want to hear.

Dr. Phil knows which side his bread is buttered on, so you won't see him inviting any of the dozens of guys on this thread who hold contrary views onto his show.


Time and again here on the forums we read about a woman who really likes a man, she sleeps with him, he disappears.

That's a different issue.


We know what the end result is when a woman invests too much upfront.

I can't imagine why a women who views having sex as an "investment" is scaring guys off!

He didn't realize until it was too late that the meter was running, and wants to be in Argentina when the bill comes due.

Ulterior motives will scare anyone, man or woman, away.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 405
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 12:15:38 PM

Some men state they email 10 different women a day. WHY?
I, too, wonder WTH? is up with that?

Have women changed so that we don't "need" at the same level as men? I can't believe that, but. Is it plain socialization that makes men do it since most of us were shown at a young age that men seek out women first? If so, why isn't this changing? Why don't men leave the women alone and let women contact them? Especially the ones who complain about it?
I think 'socialization' has a lot to do with it.I'm still struggling to wrap MY head around the idea of a guy emailing 10 women a day like it was some sort of formula or recipe.Do guys REALLy do this?

As WIP, why the constant search for "a woman", rather than just choosing to date if/when a woman comes along that does it for you?
Indeed! Why the formulaic procedure of emailing "x" number of women a day or week?

Men love to be chased and they love to chase.
Well, I for one GET that...I think the confusion arises because it's hard to know who is supposed to do what FIRST. Now, under the social conditioning that many of us underwent in our formative years, a guy who approached a woman and got rebuffed could pretty safely presume that she did so because she wasn't attracted/interested,NOT because some old parental commentary about "too aggressive" "desperate", "easy/not respectable"got re-activated. We women have to wonder whether it was in fact, simply lack of attraction/interest, or was it some socially conditioned shibboleth against a woman being too forward/assertive?
Would he have 'come around',had we just stayed with eye contact&smiles?

ell a woman who was aggressive in going after men, that she appeared too desperate. They also said that if a woman sleeps with them right away they won't date her. This is not the first time men have been asked what they think of an aggressive woman. The double standard still exists and men telling women they like a woman to pursue them leads me to ask - for what? Sex? or an LTR? You look down on women that are too easy. Time and again here on the forums we read about a woman who really likes a man, she sleeps with him, he disappears. We know what the end result is when a woman invests too much upfront.

Another manifestation of the 'damned if you do,damned if you don't' syndrome that seems to affect women's experiences with "Adventures in Modern Dating".

I just responded to a poster in another thread who said he felt forced to contact women here a certain way. I told him he wasn't being forced to do anything, including sign up here, or seek women in general.

Again with the 'force" thing! Or it's relatives "have to accept" "must realize","your requirements are unrealistic"...all of which imply that some terrible fate will befall any adult who doesn't secure some sort of male/female pair bond.

IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN


You couldn't tell from watching two looser chicks fighting over an even bigger looser dude on the Jerry Springer show

NO LIE!
but let's presume,at least for THIS discussion, that all participants in this post are a little bit more mentally balanced and nearer to "normal" than your average guest on Springer.

I can't imagine why a women who views having sex as an "investment" is scaring guys off!

I think probably the 'investment' thing is a reflection of the effect of bonding hormones, but I concede that there may well be women who see sex more as a 'currency' than a sensual experience.

I also wonder what else women aren't "desperate" about and just settle for what comes along.

Thank you for reinforcing a point I made earlier in this post!
VVVVVVV

Again with the 'force" thing! Or it's relatives "have to accept" "must realize","your requirements are unrealistic"...all of which imply that some terrible fate will befall any adult who doesn't secure some sort of male/female pair bond.
Insofar as I know, there is no law dictating that at some point a woman who choses to NOT become a pursuer,nor cares to "settle" for men who pursue her, that she finds unappealing,will be subjected to some sort of punishment.
Just because someone rejects somebody else does NOT mean that the rejector is "too picky" or is going to eventually be "punished" by having to "settle for" something even LESS desirable than the current rejectee.
The primary reason that men and women reject advances, regardless of who made the first move or advance, is simply because they feel no spark of attraction or interest. If it was all just about height, money and big boobs, ALL the short men of average income, and all the women of average or smaller bustline, would be forever single!
Is it true that a woman shouldn't "pursue" a man? Well, I see nothing wrong in quietly indicating interest, or even being a bit pro-active if shyness is suspected. But to push/pursue where no interest is being shown is kinda dumb for either gender to do, IMO. Who wants a relationship based on 'wearing down' your partners' resistance? Flirting is fine, pestering is not.
Cindy O
 *buzz*
Joined: 6/1/2006
Msg: 406
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History
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 1:21:19 PM
I would not twist a man's arm (never did) but I did offer a helping hand
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 407
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 1:28:30 PM

Some men state they email 10 different women a day. WHY?

I wonder who's paying for the coffee? (Geezus, no doubt these are the ones complaining it's too expensive to date and that dinner-whores run amok.)

~OT~ Who cares who pursues who? If you like someone, they like you ~ it should be mutual and without the silliness of all of the new "rules" placed on simple human interactions since the net became a popular outlet for meeting. JMO
 just4- 4ums
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 408
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 2:17:54 PM
I pretty much just got on POF but I'm spreading myself around quickly. I sent out a couple of emails as to just comment on either something I read that they posted on a forum or found her so attractive that I thought I would give her another one of the thousands of compliments that I am sure she always receives, whatever the reason. I just so happened to email a gal some 300 miles from me in Saint Ignus to meantion I lived at one time not too far from where she was. One word led to another and come to find out we grew up one block away from one another and I knew her sister and I had remembered her because I had a 3rd grade crush on her. Small world, heh? Now we're talking about us getting together next summer when she comes down to visit her sons so we can talk of our growing up's. Isn't that sweet? And all because I took the inititive to just mention the approximity of where she lived. Pursuence, probably doesn't apply here, but who makes firsat contact does. Women should not be afraid to contact a guy for ANY reason, even if it was to just comment on what he says or looks like or whatever.
I am really not a persuer kind of a guy. I actually like it when a gal takes notice of me and shows an interest. At least then I know I have someone who might want to get to know me further. When a women pursues me (which isn't that often) I look at that as potentually having a stronger relationship. I want a women that initially wants to be around or with me, not the other way around.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 409
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 4:40:46 PM
Some men state they email 10 different women a day. WHY?

That's exactly it - why DO men feel they HAVE to do this?

This poster reports something read in forums,using the word SOME...and asks a question.
This is
projection and condescension
-HOW?

Because the overwhelming majority of women don't.
Not only do they NOT send out contacts, they ALSO put up obstacles.

"sorry not interested" "you live too far away" "you aren't my type""you are older(or younger) than I choose to date" aren't "obstacles"; they are just "No" with a little frosting.

Because the overwhelming majority of women don't.
Not only do they NOT send out contacts, they ALSO put up obstacles.

The real question that should be asked is WHY aren't women sending out contacts, and why do they put up obstacles?
I'll answer that question very simply.

Because these women are afraid.

Fear.

Fear of _____.

I'm sorry, but this just sounds WAAY to much like the old singles bar rejoinder to being told "No"-
"you must be a lesbian!"



That leaves them at the mercy of "walk ins".

At the mercy??? They can't say "No" to a 'walk-in' that doesn't appeal to them? Again, your reasoning posits that everyone's primal fear is being single. Granted, someone's presence on an internet dating site would tend to support a presumption that they are, or WERE at one time, interested in dating.Trust me, the average North American woman, if she is that freakin' afraid of being single,can find something male in her own neighborhood to lug around and call a "boyfriend" or "significant other".

The overwhelming majority of women aren't good at meeting men, so they sit and wait for men to "appear".
Even a child realizes that the cookie in the jar isn't going to jump into their hand. That if they want the cookie, they need to reach for it.
Ergo: A boy who like a cookie, and wants a cookie, reaches for a cookie.
Yet a girl, who learned the same lesson with the cookie, doesn't carry that over into reaching for what she wants.
Doesn't make sense, does it?

There is no way for you to have firsthand knowledge of this,simply because you AREN'T a woman...but the overwhelming majority of adult women were/are socially conditioned to NOT be aggressive or even assertive in meeting men. And most of them were taught that there's a HUGE difference between a cookie in a cookie jar, and a man in a bar (or wherever). That's like comparing apples to elk,fer pete's sake.

And they're afraid of getting "hurt". So they put up obstacles.

So these men I've met who "flake off" after half-a-dozen dates,with or WITHOUT sex,because they "really aren't ready for a relationship" "still afraid of getting hurt"...are actually WOMEN in men's bodies? Are you claiming that there is no such thing as a man who's fearful of "getting hurt"? Amazing. Next one I encounter that pulls that lame-ass game, I can call "liar"on. Because now I have it on good authority that it's WOMEN who are afraid of getting hurt.
Good to know.

Why the alarm?
Why are you so concerned with what other men are doing?
If you're doing something better at finding a partner, why don't you just explain what makes you so successful?

I didn't particulaly think there was "alarm" or "concern" in this paragraph. After all, this is a FORUM. It's for DEBATE and DISCUSSION. Not everything said is a reflection of that particular individual poster's personal situation or experiences. I for one can't even imagine sitting down every day and grinding out "x" amount of emails to men where there is the faintest chance of meeting and being mutually attracted. Or planning my week to include X amount of evenings spent in local bars, coffeehouses,or clubs,so as to "put myself in the way of meeting men".For me, it will be what is meant to be. That doesn't mean I mightn't take a certain degree of initiative if the situation seemed to warrant it...but I'm not going to make it all a Godgiven MISSION.

Dating isn't a required activity in life, unless/until it becomes a way of getting to know someone that's already there in front of you as a natural occurence. It's incidental to someone interesting crossing your path, not a search or mission.


You're projecting.
Dating someone, or being with someone might not be rank high with you.
That's you.
Not other people.
You do realize people are individauls, right?

Well, I have yet to hear of someone who DIED because they weren't dating or in a relationship. I never heard of someone's singleness being the direct and only cause of them losing their job or their home.
For those who really have no intentions beyond companionship and sex,and don't plan to marry or live with the person, I guess getting out there serial dating with a wide net might be perfectly fine. But for those who see dating as something one does with a person that one could see themselves committed to for a mighty long time, dating to sort out nonstarters might seem quite the time-waster.

You're implying that MEN having the desire to find a woman should be seen as a dysfunctional.
Guess you don't like men, who desire women. Maybe you don't even like to be desired.

I didn't read it that way,it's single men who make seeking women to date a task of the same magnitude and similar methodology, as an unemployed person's search for a job,that some of us find puzzling. And I guess we'd probably
be just as puzzled about women who took that approach. More than likely we'd think she's incapable of "making it on her own",and needing a man to help her manage her life.
I had to throw that in there so I won't be accused of some kind of gender bias.

I have never been that desperate that I wanted to compete for a man.

You obviously have never wanted any man very much.
Perhaps you like being alone.

Perhaps she meant 'compete" in the sense of having to outdo other women,make "finding a man" her life's work and mission,preferring to let the Universe unfold as it should,and finding one of the men who is REALLY AND TRULY "right" for her.
And if she is a woman who is secure and competent enough to not "need" a man to validate her existence, I really doubt that thinly veiled inferences of female dysfunctionality will phase her-and other women like her- much at all.

Especially because I have been that wanted, by much better women than I see in the forums.

But here you are, arguing with thse low-quality women in a dating site forum, rather than spending time with these 'better" women.

I agree that a woman isn't desperate if she shows interest and initiates/approaches a man in general.

Of course not. It shows she's quite interested in a man.

Well, howdy-do, Captain Obvious.Nice evening, isn't it?

You are not the chosen one to distinguish between a strong desire to be with someone, and whether their desire is dysfunctional.
And you ARE the chosen one, to snipe at those who don't share YOUR dating philosophy, or those who choose to DEBATE your philosophy for the sake of debate itself?

So your personal perspective is merely subjective.
We have no way of knowing how much you like being in a relationship.
You could very well be an example of extreme apathy, who has intimacy issues, for all we know.

And that would be YOUR opinion, brought up to deflect argument in an attempt( IMO) to attack another poster's emotional/sexual functionality.

I guess then it shouldn't hurt that much when you lose someone you have affections for.

On the contrary, when someone has affections for a partner found by fate, luck,and 'affections'are real love. of course it hurts.Much more than those who use "numbers" and 'serial dating' to ensure that they don't ever have to tolerate being in their own company.

Why is she relying on "the best man possible" to simply "appear", when other women will attempt to get those "great guys" to themselves?
There's NO logic.
NO logic that I can see, that someone would sit by and not only allow that to happen, but encourage it to happen.
Makes ZERO sense to me.

Because maybe she believes that part of "the best man possible"...FOR HER-is the man who subscribes to the idea that it's the MAN'S PLACE to be the suitor. I'm neither for or against that idea, I'm simply pointing out that these men DO exist and many of them have wonderful ladies as wives or SOs.

hat's not desperate, that's being successful at meeting women, and the exact reason I'm NOT desperate for any one woman.
I'd call that smart.
Real smart.
Because it works great.

And yet, here you are, arguing with such lesser quality women as hang out on PoF forums.
Um, yeah, OK.Whatever.
Cindy O
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 410
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 5:10:47 PM
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1130 PM
Or even initiate the relationship because he might lose interest without the challenge/chase?

A friend of mine told me she read a book that said women should never ask men out, call men , show men they care in the beginning of the relationship or act in an aggressive fashion because it takes away the challenge for a man.

I'd like to get responses from both men and women on this subject.

That is the complete OT.
I'm going to make a semi-educated guess that the book the OP's friend referred to was "The Rules" which enjoyed a certain amount of notoriety/popularity in it's day.Like any other "relationship book" or "guru", it has it's supporters and it's scoffers.

if a man gets turned down a second time then he has committed a crime - sexual harassment - by repeated ( twice ) unwanted ( she said no ) sexual ( whatever a woman says it is ) advances ( he asked ).

If she said no the first time, what part of "no" did the man NOT understand? The legal premise "No means NO" was not meant to overthrow all male/female courting and social customs, just to address a VERY REAL situation in the workplace.
And if a woman told a man "no" the first time he asked, why in the world would SHE want to "move a relationship forward" with a man she already turned down?
Let's flip the script and presume that ALL men stop pursuing women and passively wait for those women who are bold, liberated,desperate, whatever! enough to initiate, doesn't that put MEN in a position of "having to settle for the walk-ins?" Aren't THEY putting everything in the hands of Fate, subjecting their love lives to the whims of capricious Fortune?
To the question posed in the OT;
OP, the book your friend refers to is garbage, IMO. But it DOES tend to reinforce a lot of already-present social conditioning. The actual truth is that men and women ought to see each other as human beings, and start using some intuition and common sense while engaging in Adventures in Modern Dating. The biggest cause of dating and relationship problems?
Dating and relationship BOOKS.
Cindy O
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 412
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 8:02:01 PM
Verity...

The amount of projection and condescension in that statement is glaring.
YOU are the only one saying that men HAVE to do this.
YOU are spinning it that way.
The real dots are not difficult to connect, at all.
AND, you're asking the wrong question.

I see that a lot of men don't get why the question is a question, but it is the right one.

The answer as to "why" do men send out contacts to women?

Because the overwhelming majority of women don't.
Not only do they NOT send out contacts, they ALSO put up obstacles.

The real question that should be asked is WHY aren't women sending out contacts, and why do they put up obstacles?
I'll answer that question very simply.

Because these women are afraid.
Fear.
Fear of _____.

That blank can be filled with any number of reasons. Take your pick.
Some may be - that'd be great for men if that were true - it would be way more attractive to a guy than we're not in any rush to pair off for the sake of it. That'd really put a crimp in your sleep at night. The only fear I can validate is fear of settling, and/or putting a relationship before your life and regretting it because you were sold a bill of goods that said you had to.

Bottom line, they aren't good at taking the initiative. Which makes them poor at generating leads. People who are poor at generating leads, are poor at generating their own results. That leaves them at the mercy of "walk ins".

I agree that IF you are IN SEARCH OF a man (for whatever reason) and you aren't planning on making it proactive, you will deal with nothing but filler.

The overwhelming majority of women aren't good at meeting men, so they sit and wait for men to "appear".
Even a child realizes that the cookie in the jar isn't going to jump into their hand. That if they want the cookie, they need to reach for it.
Ergo: A boy who like a cookie, and wants a cookie, reaches for a cookie.
Yet a girl, who learned the same lesson with the cookie, doesn't carry that over into reaching for what she wants.
Doesn't make sense, does it?

Figuring "it out" (why men 'reach' for women) is child's play.
Figuring out why women like men, want men, yet make little attempt to "reach", is the real question.

The real question for me is "why take something that's enjoyable in life IF/WHEN it happens, and turn it into a mission where it starts feeling like a job?"

I've said it before, they don't "fish", they wait for a fish to jump in the boat.
They spend all their time working on their shiny "lures", yet expect fish to jump in their boat.
They're not very skilled anglers.

And they're afraid of getting "hurt". So they put up obstacles.
Figuring this out is child's play.
Not to mention, if you listen, they'll TELL you all these things.

I don't know why it's even a mystery to anyone, let alone women.
If they knew what obstacles other women put up, they'd know how to be more successful at dating men, if they took into consideration what men have to deal with from women.
I'm fully aware of what women have to deal with, from men, which I factor into my approach.
And it works well.
Dating is not difficult to figure out.
It's simply a numbers game.
That's why men take the approach that they do.
You have to filter through a lot of women who are filled with fear in order to get to the ones that aren't.

Simple.

OK then. For the men who feel they must do this (and no one's telling them they have to) and complain that women don't approach, quit ****in'. You CHOOSE to do the work. That line about "well someone has to do it" is BS - no one HAS to do anything.

You're projecting.
Dating someone, or being with someone might not be rank high with you.
That's you.
Not other people.
You do realize people are individauls, right?

Sure. And if people want to search for that one person they feel will make life complete, to the detriment of all around them - I don't have a problem with that - so long as they don't complain about the process if/when they get frustrated they make all the effort, since they choose to do so.

Your prejudice, bias and indigitation is completely revealed by making such a gender biased statement.
You're implying that MEN having the desire to find a woman should be seen as a dysfunctional.
Guess you don't like men, who desire women. Maybe you don't even like to be desired.
I've always liked being desired, and have always liked women who desire men.

Maybe that's too general. Being desired by men? It's not an accomplisment for me - being desired by a man I'm dating that's in my life? Totally different. Same in reverse. I don't desire "men", though I may desire one man who I happen to be involved with.

In just about every other aspect of life goals, those who are on a mission to succeed are used as MODELS of success.
Apparently, in "dating", the ones who work towards an objective are to be categorized as anything but a behaviour worth modeling.
What source of literature do those kinds of "spin doctoring" come from, I wonder??
Hmmm?
Why the whining of men who find women more desirable than you find them desirable?

Sorry, I don't find making a project out of placing someone in your life as opposed to naturally getting to know those who cross your path "successful". It's not about literature. Do you feel that women who want to be married by 25, have children by 30 and have a white picket fence a great example of the "apply business to relationships" model, or will you tell me that's extreme? To me, it's the same thing at a different level.

P.S. I don't whine - what I do is address men who whine about having to search, having to contact, having to do everything. They don't. Plain and simple. They choose to.

I do identify with it.
100%.
I like women.
Love to be around them.
Love to be with them.
They put a smile on my face.
Big time!

I'm wondering why the simplicity of connecting the dots has escaped you this long.

It seems you don't understand how men approach seeking women to date, or the impetus that leads to them being the initiators, and you don't seem to realize that many women choose the same approach that was traditionally one that mostly men would only do.
Why are an individual's "active" approach to achieving one's goals looked down so negatively?

Because it's taking something that happens anyway and applying a power point presentation to it. It takes two to make something work, so you can hunt down happiness all you want, but if the other side ain't clicking, you're spinning your wheels. Many times a search like that narrows focus and a person gets more wrapped up in all that goes wrong than everything else. Again, all this is fine if a person wants to own that they are creating that situation by forcing what should come naturally. If it doesn't - who cares? We can't "make" everything happen.

Because I happen to like women, tremendously, and value sharing intimacy with them, enormously.
A good woman enriches my life.
Why wouldn't I search for one?

I like men too, but they're not extinct. They're everywhere - searching for one is odd to me I guess. Either I will click with someone or I won't. In the meantime I prefer to enjoy life. People don't come along any quicker because you search. If you're going to wait, you might as well enjoy the downtime.

You are not the chosen one to distinguish between a strong desire to be with someone, and whether their desire is dysfunctional.
So your personal perspective is merely subjective.
We have no way of knowing how much you like being in a relationship.
You could very well be an example of extreme apathy, who has intimacy issues, for all we know.

True - do I like it? Sure with conditions. I don't like it enough to try to build one where it doesn't exist because I feel it's missing. But generally, chasing is usually about someone running from you and it's not the most logical of things to do, nor is competing for someone who it's not clear is into you. But, hey if you're advocating chasing and competing here, I won't stand in your way. Endorse away.

I guess then it shouldn't hurt that much when you lose someone you have affections for.

There's a lot of middle ground between not hunting down a random person to drag back to the cave so I won't be alone and not caring for someone who's there already, because I'm involved with them. Nice overly extreme comparison, though.

It's amusing that you bring up the topic of mindsets....when it comes to attitudes on the opposite sex...
Yours and others.
Perhaps you could explain to us just how are "boys and girls" supposed to "get with each other" when you have this:

Who said they always were supposed to get with each other? Back to that initial default again. Is it programmed from grade school? What will be, will be.

"Interesting. I think it depends on your background too-like for example....i was born and raised in the south. I have old fashioned views. The guy is to call, peruse, chase. I honestly don't like to chase and I don't. But could see where that could send a signal that I'm not interested, but in all actuality I am."

How is a "boy" to overcome this obstacle?
I'll tell you.
Avoid it and move on to the next one till you come across one like this:

I would not twist a man's arm (never did) but I did offer a helping hand

That's why men email lot's of women.
To find the ones who have a real "gem" of an attitude...

That's funny. I'd have thought you'd say "because we like the women we're contacting". Guess not. So it is a numbers game. Fair enough.

The important question is why is the woman who claims to have "old fashioned views" not choosing a better approach at finding the best man possible?
Why is she relying on "the best man possible" to simply "appear", when other women will attempt to get those "great guys" to themselves?
There's NO logic.
NO logic that I can see, that someone would sit by and not only allow that to happen, but encourage it to happen.
Makes ZERO sense to me.

There's no question to a non applicable situation. Who cares? I'm sure that works for her...or doesn't but it's not unworkable enough to change it. And?

Perhaps there is truth to most men, simply being more logical, than most women.

By the evidence that is abundant, it certainly appears that way to me.

Personally, I don't pursue a "woman". I don't even really pursue opportunities to meet women.
But I take advantage of every opportunity to meet women.
I make the best of every opportunity to meet women, because I like being with a woman.
That's not desperate, that's being successful at meeting women, and the exact reason I'm NOT desperate for any one woman.
I'd call that smart.
Real smart.
Because it works great.

So you don't pursue. You go about your business and pay attention to your surroundings, which is basically my point.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 413
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 8:21:19 PM
I only want to pursue someone, that I am not running away from...

Does this make me abnormal?

How are my dance moves?
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 416
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 9:01:02 PM

However, I don't see anything wrong with a woman asking a man out, calling or even showing they care (just not to much though, that may indicate clinginess) at the beginning of the relationship.

So say a woman does exactly that, and the guy responds to the call assuming she's hot for him and he want's to sleep with her. Then what? If she follows through, he'll be gone faster than a lightening bolt, if she plays the coy and chaste one, she is sending mixed signals and either will piss him off or he will see she is a tease and a game player. When a woman pursues a man they simply see it as an invitation. I don't send out invites to a party that's not going to happen right now.
 *topchef*
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 417
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/20/2010 9:39:48 PM
^^^There are a bunch of guys who act like such azzholes it messes it up for their more worthy brothers. As previously stated, sifting through the chaf becomes a real chore. There are so many players and swine on dating sites, I am starting to think the only real men are the stand up guys (not the ijits) who post in the forums. If that is true, it is a sad state of affairs.

If there is someone that sparks my interest, they are going to here about it. What happens from there should happen organically based on mutual attraction or not.
 ea®ly
Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 421
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/21/2010 1:50:17 AM
Pursuence, probably doesn't apply here, but who makes firsat contact does. Women should not be afraid to contact a guy for ANY reason, even if it was to just comment on what he says or looks like or whatever.

Or they can spend their time reading through all the C&P messages from the 10-a-day boys, never knowing if they're "missing" something by not looking themselves.


I only want to pursue someone, that I am not running away from...
Absolutely! Running towards each other is, ...so much more fun.

Does this make me abnormal?
This is sooooo... not a bad thing.

How are my dance moves?
Intoxicating.


Keep dreaming boys..

I'd rather live my dreams than dream them, ...if you catch my drift.

Some men state they email 10 different women a day. WHY?

I dunno' ...I never make first contacts, one reason is that I don't see a lot of well written profiles that give me any clue who they are, ...what's to write to them about in a first contact, "long walks", "red wine", "the gym", "her cats/dogs", "her anger", "the cleavage in all her pics"?
WTF?
Besides, I'm not looking for 10 women, I just wanted to be found by one, knowing I will be able to know her when she finds me.
Shot-gunning 10 emails a day to different women?
How terribly inelegant, ...and sad.
I do contact people from the forums, especially those whose posts I admire a lot. Good thing too...
The real question that should be asked is WHY aren't women sending out contacts, and why do they put up obstacles?

Some do the former and not the latter.

Nobody should pursue anybody, ...if you do this right, two people mutually pursue a "we".

I don't hide who I am, and I'm happy to broadcast who I am, warts (my obstacles) and all... On my profile and one the forums.

My idea wasn't to appeal to as many women as possible (and boy I made sure I didn't), ...just one, I'm honest about who I am (and who I'm not) in my profile, ...most women probably run for the hills by the second paragraph (good!), the few left by the end of a very long read (attention span's important to me) probably think I'm too eccentric (better!) and run for the hills. I don't want most women, or a few, I just wanted one (best).
 just4- 4ums
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 424
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/21/2010 7:02:46 AM
Someone forgot to send me the rule book as to who is supposed to pursue who.
When you tell little girls that they are not supposed to chase the boys then when they grow up you get all these women here on this thread.
Come on....it's 2010 for jimminy sakes!
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 425
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/21/2010 2:14:50 PM

When you tell little girls that they are not supposed to chase the boys then when they grow up you get all these women here on this thread.
Come on....it's 2010 for jimminy sakes!

yes it is, and hopefully the parents of young girls(and boys) are now teaching their children from a more modern and balanced viewpoint.
Unfortunately, right alongside "all these women here on this thread" were so many little boys who were taught that there was something "not nice" or "not quite right" about girls who chased boys. Yeah yeah I know, not ALL men were taught that, but they don't have any special markings to distinguish them from men who were.
I didn't go through the thread and COUNT, but my general sense/overview is that there are not very many reports of women who had "pursuing" work out WELL for them. And there have been reports from women who had men who either rejected pursuing women, or made erroneous presumptions that she was willing to 'give it up' right off the bat.
I'm sorry J4-4... I was assigned to send you that rule book , but I ET the damn thing.
Cindy O
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 428
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/22/2010 10:28:42 AM

Most parents don't say a bloody word about how to court with their kids.

Well, MINE did.
That said, I was also taught to know how to stand on my own 2 feet, and not to have to DEPEND on courtship and marriage for survival and validation.
But the wording used in the OT was "pursue". There is nothing wrong with a woman indicating interest,taking the initiative in starting a conversation in a social setting. It's been my experience and observation that beyond that(quiet/graceful indication of interest, striking up a conversation) men in MY age group,who would be considered my peers in terms of background, education, area of residence,etc, tend to be "put off" by a woman who is 'too pushy' or 'too bold'.

Driven by the forces of sexual selection, male and in some instances female animals have evolved a dizzying array of mating displays and rituals.
They are natural and they work the best.

LOL, I'm reminded of the "Planet Earth" segment that featured the courting dance of the male Superb Bird-of-Paradise....poor little guy has his tale all fanned out, dancing his ass off, almost RUNS OVER the female...and all she does is sort of a bird shrug, and walks away.
Unfortunately, while I GET the "natural" tendency in some species for the male to be the courtship "aggressor", we aren't Birds-of-Paradise, or primitive tribes. Besides, unless I'm TOTALLY misunderstanding your point, the social conditioning I'm speaking of would tend to reinforce your premise, that it is "natural" for the male animal to be the courtship initiator in terms of overt gestures. However, I suspect that most look for subtle signals of receptiveness/interest from the female.

But, given certain developments in human civilization, particularly Western, industrial-based cultures, the so-called 'natural' roles have become blurred, hence the confusion and the presumption of some humans to write books telling women how to be b*tches and men how to be azzhats,all in the interest of successful courtship. Except that these books leave a lot of people who really only want to have a nice life with a loving partner,scratching their heads and wondering whether they should make advances, or 'play it cool' or just say "to hell with the entire proceedings", because the confusion and frustration have made dating/courting a freakin' MINEFIELD,rather than the pleasant social exercise it ought to be.
At this point in time, what with the changes brought about by equal rights, and the fact that modern technologies enable us to interact with people outside our own geographic,economic and social setting, I don't think that anyone can claim that any one dating/courtship model is "better" or "more correct" than another. We all have to rely on our intuition, our common sense,and what feels "right" to our own self.
There ARE no "shoulds" and "should'nts" , everybody just has to use their own best judgement and what they've learned about other people(and themselves)from prior experiences. Trying to go STRICTLY by some book or TV program or magazine article probably isn't the best course of action, and yes, I'll agree, sometimes we have to ask if what we learned at our parent's knee is still valid,or whether the times have modified those parental guidelines.
Cindy O
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 429
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/22/2010 10:35:22 AM

LOL, I'm reminded of the "Planet Earth" segment that featured the courting dance of the male Superb Bird-of-Paradise....poor little guy has his tale all fanned out, dancing his ass off, almost RUNS OVER the female...and all she does is sort of a bird shrug, and walks away.

I see at least 20 versions of this from humans every weekend in some local social scene. LOL
 txredbull
Joined: 1/3/2010
Msg: 430
view profile
History
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/22/2010 12:04:07 PM
No, its not true.
Its something woman tell themselves because they believe it defines a "slut" or "prostitute".

It doesn't...
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 431
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/22/2010 12:22:38 PM

No, its not true.
Its something woman tell themselves because they believe it defines a "slut" or "prostitute".

It doesn't...

You can't even begin to know how much I wish that were completely,unequivocally,across-the-board TRUTH.
However, in the grand and glorious mix of people that wind up on dating sites,( or in certain social settings on weekends) there unfortunately ARE men that do think that, or who believe a woman who approaches is "desperate"(apparently failing to realize, that premise BEGS the question;"And just what does that say about YOU, good sir?") and will behave either rudely or predatorily...
Whereas NO ONE views a male approaching a female with a "WTF? Is he desperate or somethin'? " The female may say "Sorry not interested"...yeah yeah maybe the poor guy overplayed his tailfeathers and danced too hard,but the chuckles at his deflation are of kindly, understanding "what can ya do?"nature. A woman who approaches and gets rejected not only is an object of quiet derision, she herself must wonder if he wasn't attracted at all, or did she overstep some male shibboleth held by THAT PARTICULAR GUY? That's what makes it tough for we women to know how to proceed, because not ALL men have that "Me Tarzan, you Jane" prehistoric man mindset. And they ain't wearing signs, brands, flags or tattoos identifying them from the more modern, laid-back guys.
Cindy O
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 433
view profile
History
IS IT TRUE THAT A WOMAN SHOULDN’T PURSUE A MAN?
Posted: 1/23/2010 6:06:03 AM

MEN LIKE TO FEEL IN CONTROL...

Here's the thing though, it's a fairly well-established fact that the person who does the least in a relationship is the one who maintains control.


...IF A WOMAN IS PURSEING THE MAN HE THEN STARTS TO FEEL HE HASNT GOT CONTROL...

The principle above would suggest it's the woman not the man in this case who is feeling she hasn't got control.


SO THEREFORE IT IS DOWN TO THE WOMAN TO PERUSE BUT NOT LET THE MAN KNOW SHE IS PERSUING...LET HIM THINK ITS HIS IDEA

Yea, right... Trick the guy into doing what she wants. Men are so used to being invisible wallflowers, due to women never pursuing them, that it's pretty obvious in those rare instances when a woman is trying to pursue in this fashion. And it's really annoying. Because she's not so much pursuing him as trying to manipulate him into pursing her -- while playing dumb at the same time.
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